Regarding Flags, Heritage and Pride

Yet another one of those damnable threads asking if the confederate flag is a symbol of “racism” or “heritage” has percolated its way to the surface, like a noxious fart bubbling up to disturb the placid serenity of our beloved DU. It’s almost enough to make you wonder if there isn’t a group of monkeys tapping away at their keyboards in a room somewhere, trying desperately to write a sonnet, but mysteriously arriving at the words “racist,” “racist heritage,” “heritage of racism,” “swastika,” “traitor,” “loser” and “unpatriotic” far more often than is statistically likely. Or, maybe those threads are like tribbles in the DU archives where, left alone for too long, they propagate like bunnies and finally spill over into your lap. Cute enough initially, but eventually you start looking for innovative ways to get rid of the little bastards. A butcher knife, a shotgun, a microwave…hell, even a weedwhacker, any tool will do.

There are a couple of statements that are oft repeated in these threads which I’d like to dispense with at the outset before raising a few points and asking a few questions. Read on if you like, or not, as you see fit.

The first statement which is invariably made is formulaic. The confederate flag is: a) a symbol of racism; b) the chosen emblem of traitors (and is hence unpatriotic); c) the southern version of the swastika; d) a worn out symbol for a whacked out people too stupid to realize their team lost. Don’t worry, this isn’t multiple choice, you can mix and match to personalize your very own condemnation. While making your selection, though, you might recall that the American flag is the same flag which was flying in Tuskegee not so very long ago; it’s the same flag which was flying when Fat Man and Little Boy made their presence known to the world; and it’s the same flag which is flying now while thousands of innocents are being tortured in Guantanamo Bay and throughout the Middle East. And, here’s the nifty part: it’s being done in your name whether or not you’ve given it your personal stamp of approval.

The second statement which pops up routinely is an extension or the “traitor” label. It runs something like “those stupid southerners need to realize they lost, they’re part of the United States, they’re just going to have to get over their isolationism.” I’ve pondered this, and agree with it on some level. Due to recent events, though, a thought nags at the back of my mind, makes me wonder why the hell the South should feel all warm and cuddly with the rest of the nation. Katrina. New Orleans. Would the response time be the same if this happened in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle? Would there be mobile homes sitting unused in parking lots? Would basic power still not be working 7 months later? Would the nation tolerate it if that devastation happened anywhere but in the South? If your answer to that is “no,” then please explain why exactly southerners are supposed to perceive themselves as equal partners in this wonderful union of ours?

All of that aside, I’ve given some thought to exactly why southern pride is the way it is and why so many southerners take pride in things that might leave a northerner aghast or, at the very best, indifferent. I’ve started with the premise that just about every individual goes through this life with their own personal yardstick for measuring its success. And, although what that yardstick measures varies from person to person, there are some common themes and most of themes are tangible in some way. Material wealth, philanthropy, providing for your family, raising a not-too-screwed-up kid, etc. In doing some state by state comparisons, though, it becomes apparent that the South is a pretty sucky place to be if you base your sense of self worth on these measures. One statistical study found there to be a direct correlation between red vs. blue states and infant mortality, with infant mortality being twice as likely in red states, primarily due to the South. Poverty is rampant everywhere, but what northern city can boast that 50% of its working age population is unemployed? Quality education for your kids or yourself in the South? That’s a hard thing to come by, and generally costs too much to be accessible to most families. Income is lower in the South, total mortality higher, health care quality higher, rate of teen death by suicide, homicide and accident are all higher. By virtually any tangible index you care to measure, the South is the idiot stepchild of the nation. I think when you take away the ability of people to care for the needs of their families, their children and even themselves, you end up with a bunch of people who start to measure their sense of self worth based on less tangible things like Christian morals and “family values” and a gungho, untamed rebel spirit which is embodied (for some) in an unfortunate piece of cloth. Not that any of these things are necessarily bad. But, when they’re all that you have, you cling to them too tightly and may even get a bit overbearing and fanatical about it.

Of course, this is not to say that there aren’t a lot of racist assholes who fly the Confederate flag. I just don’t think the labels, name-calling and self-righteous condemnations that fly around here when the topic comes up really quite address the issue.

Shutting up now, flame away.

-fl

Mind you, I haven't joined in the threads to which you refer, but the whole thing does strike me as a little divisive. Also. You speak of the poverty, poor education, etc. in the south but it always seems to be better-off people who make a stink about displaying the confederate flag. Oh well, what do I know.

On a trip through upstate New York & Vermont some years ago, I was impressed by the Civil War monuments in every town.

But we often get threads here saying "why don't we just let them secede" or "why didn't we just let the secede." I think keeping the Union together was a good cause. And the war ended slavery, even if that's not why the North invaded. (That's why the South seceded, though.)

Go Yankees!

(Born in New Hampshire, though I've lived most of my life in Texas.)

I've heard around here. It is only human to want to be proud of where you are from. You make some really fine points.

Jesus H. Christ, the worst thing I can say is that these idiots who fly this flag for "Pride" are doing it out of ignorance only, no more, no less. There are plenty of other flags that they could fly that were OFFICIAL national or state flags, and not battle or naval flags!

Like this one, which flew over Mississippi when it seceded, the Bonnie Blue Flag:



Or how about this one, the first National Flag of the Confederacy, the Stars and Bars:



Hell, even the second flag, the Stainless banner, is less offensive:



Or even the "Final Edition":



All these people are demonstrating is revisionist history, ignorance, and stupidity.

I kinda liked it, too bad it looked like a surrender flag when there was no wind heh.

BTW how many flags did the C.S.A end up having, I remember reading a book where it seemed the Confederate Congress was passing a new flag like every couple months heh.

I once flew the Confederate flag, assuming it was a symbol of
Southern heritage.

You see, I grew up, and still live, in rural north Alabama.

White southerners, like myself, have some psychological need
to deal with change. As I matured, I realized I didn't have to.
I'm a liberal Democrat because of the Depression stories Grandma
told me. Unfortunately, many of my neighbors haven't matured as I.

In my hometown, the N word is as common as "y'all". I cringe.

I'm proud of my heritage, not because of some mythical attachment
to soldiers in gray, but because of my family. I strongly disagree
with the politics of some, but blood is thicker than politics.

Off rant now:)

it at all.

I think you did a great job expressing what you wanted to say and did so in an extremely well put and intellectual manner. The problem I have is that through all of it I didn't see you really make an argument as to why it isn't a symbol or racist heritage etc... You did say a lot of logical things, and did condemn those who condemn them very nicely, but where are the arguments as to why those saying it is racist are wrong and that it is simply a symbol of heritage etc? Maybe there are good arguments that can be made for that position, but I must admit I don't know them. All I do know (though it doesn't mean I'm right), is that when I see the stars and bars I think "probably a racist fucker" automatically. Maybe that's wrong, but that is what that flag represents to me. I think that image is pretty readily perceived by many upon laying eyes on it. The flag's heritage is one of slavery and racism at its core, first and foremost. So the way I see it, people who take pride in it do so for one of two reasons: They are proud to be southerners, including pride that they fought to remain superior over other races, or they admire the flag by default of just thinking that's what they are supposed to do, without truly understanding the history of the flag. i.e. ignorance. So that's my take on it. They are either proud of the heritage, which includes being willing to die in order to hold on to their racist ways, or they are just ignorant to the fact that there are many racist connotations attached to that flag.

So in closing, no flames from me, just my perception. I think you posting something extremely well thought out in its own way and it is refreshing to see that. I just wish you provided more logic as to why it is so wrong to relate that flag to racism.

Peace.

The fact that a sizeable segment of the population associates the confederate battle flag with racism is indisputable. Honestly, I’m not really interested in debating the point, although I would argue that if you walked down the streets of any southern town and asked individual passersby to “name that flag,” they would call it “the rebel flag.” Not the “racist flag,” nor the “white-supremacist flag,” not even the “happy-happy joy-joy slaveowner’s flag.” For some, I would further argue, the ‘rebel’ spirit is what they identify with. That harkens back to a day where it was possible with only a plot of land and the sweat on your back to support a family, meeting all their needs and having something to leave behind for your descendants. Now, the same individuals who would be living that independent life are instead greeting people at Walmart.

So I’m not entirely ready to declare what the flag symbolizes “first and foremost.” But, it’s a moot point, and tangential to addressing concerns which are immediately relevant to the democratic party this very day. Remember the mess this place was during the ’04 primaries whenever the South came up?

Rather than arguing about what a piece of cloth symbolizes, I’d rather turn the debate to WHY there is such an unhealthy predilection in the South for placing so much importance on intangible abstractions which have no immediate effect on their daily lives. Things like Christian morals, family values and even an old piece of cloth. Going one step further, I would even suggest that doing something about the quality of public education and health care and the prevailing wage (and the list goes on and on and on....)in the South would do more towards eliminating the time honored tradition of clinging to such things than ranting about all the mean and icky things a flag symbolizes ever will.

Bah, I’m reluctant to post this because it really deserves more careful thought than I’ve given it, but lunch break is ending and I’ve got to get back to work. Thanks for the considered thoughts in your post, and

peace.

-fl

I'd have to agree with a lot of what has been said. My family
comes originally from the South, many migrated north (my parents
were both born there) and now south again before I was born.

As one who works overseas a lot, I have moved on beyond too
much local pride. The lone star flag of Texas, the Confederate
Flag, the flag of Virginia (where I was born), they are all
historic, and a part of my heritage, but no more so than the
German or Russian that my ancestors spoke up until some
150 years ago. I was born a citizen of the USA, and that is the
only flag to which I owe my allegiance. The rest is either
historic or nostalgic,. My wife owes her allegiance to the
flag of today's Germany, not to to the Nazi flag, or the imperial
Prussian flag, or any regional flag that preceded it. Our
daughters don't even feel a connection with the flags of Texas
or the Nazi flag--to them they are merely pieces of cloth with
a historical meaning behind them. I had visited Germany seven
years before I ever set foot in South Carolina, the birthplace
of my father's father.

I think it makes a huge difference if you have traveled and seen
the world (not just stationed at some remote military base with
hardly any contact with the locals, either). I used to think the
world revolved around Virginia when I was little. Only after I
had seen more of the world did I realize that every place on
earth had people with local pride, and that my own was narrow-
minded and misplaced. Of course, I never felt threatened, or felt
the twinges of an inferiority complex that made me react as though
I had something to defend. After the civil War, this attitude was
hugely pervasive throughout the American South, and not only has it
not completely disappeared, but it is being stoked an exploited
by the political Right in America for its own selfish gain.

It's unfortunate, but it's a fact a life that we ignore at our peril:
this sentiment is still there, and if we don't address it while the Right
does, then they will be the only ones to gain from that exploitation.