Staying home on election day or voting third party accomplishes zilch.

Please reconsider this stance.

I've read people here and talked to people who are considering this....One gay co-worker who hates the GOP more than anything is switching to Green because the dems aren't doing enough for his civil rights. So, he's voting green to "send a message" and " make a statement".

Can someone please explain how this accompishes anything but another GOP victory? Wow. Talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees.

And people is free to be stupid.

Make your statement in the primaries. Send a message via snail mail. It takes a little effort but makes a bigger impact that petitions or e-mails.

That being said, if you absolutely cannot bring yourself to vote for someone, you can't. There are very few (maybe only one) Democrats in that category for me.

...you might as well go down to the booth and fill in the bubble for a rightie. End of story. I understand people being frustrated but now is not the time for infighting. United we stand,divided we fall...literally.

That means we rock - but not if you chicken out and refuse to participate in the democratic process.

... but what about the election stolen from Al Gore?

What about the election stolen from Kerry? What are you doing about that? Are we united, or not?

No matter how much we might love them, Gore and Kerry are no substitutes for FDR and JFK. We need to return to our core message of standing up for freedom, justice, and the American worker.

And me, I've just become a Democratic precinct chair. It's a start...

:headbang:

...you blame the stolen elections on the candidates? That's ridiculous.

But you should hear some of the comments my wife and I have heard about Kerry from Repukes and Dems alike. He left a bad taste in too many people's mouths, and I think he played softball way too often in his campaign.

That said, I worked harder for Kerry than I have for any other candidate. But in 2008, we need a streetfighter candidate.

I can show you how his election was stolen, if you can open your mind.

The problem is, you see, that Kerry had to campaign in order to win more than just Ohio. Now, if you want to tell me how Blackwell more corrupt than Boss Tweed and how the voting machines rigged the Ohio election in Nero's favor, you can go ahead and do so. But here's a little secret about the machines- they can't throw elections to Republicans as easily if an overwhelming number of voters cast their votes for the Democrats.

You're among progressive grassroots activists on this board, BF - we all know the score. But if Kerry had won in Florida or Texas or any one of a number of other states, Ohio would not have been such an issue.

And you gave up for the right to have your vote counted correctly and now roll over and blame Kerry?

We all know the score?

I don't think you have a clue. The elections in 2000, 2002, and 2004, were all fixed, across the country, wherever electronic voting took place. Where there were paper ballots all the numbers - pre and exit polls - matched. The e-votes were whacked out.

Ohio: Yes, Blackwell is in their league. Ney, is from Ohio, and he and Tom Delay designed the Hack America's Vote Act. The vote was as close as could be and the real activists in Ohio have been denied their democracy and are fighting to get it back.

"Give up?" It may be in some Dems' vocabulary, but lo siento, no comprende.

You should take a good look around DU - you can't hardly sneeze without running into someone who wants to banish electronic "black-box" voting machines from America forever. Instead of merely bitching about it, we're trying to do something about it. The main problem is that Republicans are in charge, and they want the machines to stay.

Yes, we all know the score. This is DU. We're in this for the long haul.

So, we go from blaming the candidate to blaming the republicans? We are making progress.

We can alter history by getting rid of the black boxes, now. That chance gets better all the time when we point at the real culprits..... there is hope, eh?

Progress will be achieved when we realize that Democratic candidates must not make it easier for black-box machines to steal elections for the Republicans. The stakes are simply too high.

it makes no difference. :dilemma:

Helped get President Clinton elected, especially the first time.

Me, I'd be happy as a clam if the two major parties in America were the Democrats and the Greens. But that ain't gonna happen for at least the next 50 years (or before the ice caps melt, whichever comes first).

Vote Dem, Dem, Dem all the way down the line. If you find a spot where no Dem is running, vote Green if you want. Hey, why the hell not?

Why would we want that situation in reverse????

It's just a little premature to be deciding to vote for any third party. I certainly won't.

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your liking? Let's get some control back first, get our foot in the door. Without that it's pointless.

Votes?

Sorry, but even though I've worked for, and voted Democratic for the past thirty five years, I'm sick and tired of being taken for granted. I went and tried the whole "change from within" crap, and all I got out of it was an increasingly pro-corporate, pro-war party.

You want my vote, well then the party had damn well be prepared to earn it. Isn't that what a democracy is all about anyway, earning votes? Then stop taking the leftist, formerly the base of the party for granted.

Nuts and bolts of the issue, minimum that the party has to put before me to get my vote, and the votes of the anti-war left, is a solid, concrete plan for bringing all the troops home within six months. That will suffice for the '06 and '08 election. In '10 and '12, let's start really kicking out the jams with UHC for starters. You do that, the party does that, and the Greens will be subdued, people don't vote against their own self interest. However if the Democrats try to out-hawk the 'Pugs in '06 and '08, people are either going to stay home or go Green in droves. Something you need to understand about the anti-war left, we abhor the death of innocents, and it doesn't matter a tinker's dam if it's the 'Pugs who are inflicting it or the Dems, we will not support it either with our vote or our other actions.

Seems like all it did in 2000 was get less people to take them seriously.

Other than your own opinion that is. Seems to me, from all of the gnashing of teeth and rending of clothing over this issue, the Dems are somewhat concerned about the Greens. You want to neutralize the Greens, take one of their pet planks and make it the Dems own, it's that simple. Continue with the same ol' same ol' two party/same corporate master system of government, and more and more of the left is either going to stay home or go Green.

Are you going to pretend you didn't know about them and make me look them up?

You want to change the Dems, vote in the primary, work for a candidate in that primary, and get enough people to vote for them. You won't do that and it's your own fault.

Been there, done that, all I've got to show for it is a party headed in the wrong direction, and a party that is as equally controlled by corporate America as the 'Pugs are.

I've worked every single election from '72 through *gasp* '00 and '04, done everything from beat the streets to convention delegate, yet none of my efforts, nor the efforts of thousands like me has changed the righward, pro-corporate course of this party.

Therefore, it seems that since the party won't respond from change from within, it is time to try change from without. And if the Dems won't respond to that, well, they will join the Whigs as an outdated, outmoded, unresponsive party on the dustheap of history.

Sorry, but I'm done with exercises in futility, which is what the "change from within" strategy has become. You want to continue to beat your head against a brick wall, go for it. But I'm looking to work on something that is not so painful, and that actually might yield results.

This is my first tour of duty, and I'm excited about the whole process. I'm going to the state convention as an alternate, too - my wife's the precinct delegate.

Yeah, I was a precinct chair, long ago and far away. It can be a great experience, educational and fun, oh and a lot of work too.

The first thing I need to do once I'm official is start roping in soft Democrats in my precinct who are considering voting for an independent for Governor (Kinky Friedman, if you're familiar with him).

You act as if there are a few people who can veto a primary candidate despite them getting the most amount of votes.

You have your work cut out for you. If it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. And working for the campaign is only part of it. Being compelling and getting more people to support what you do is entirely another. Maybe you should work on that instead of insisting transparently false stuff like how you think Ralph Nader ran for President to get himself in the White House (remember that one?) Maybe you smell bad or have rotten breath, or are obnoxious, I don't know*. Find out, because it's our only chance.

* Because I said "I dont' know", this is not a personal attack. It's no more sidestepping the rules than this garbage you inundate us with.

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...that it's your own responsibility to get what you want.

But that aside, I absolutely agree with you that it is the responsibility of the individual to get what they want. However where we diverge is on how an individual gets what they want. You apparently want lockstep party line voting. I think that there are other, better ways of doing so. Being as that, out of the two of us I'm the only one who has seen both sides of the issue, it appears that I do indeed know whereof I speak. You on the other hand:shrug:

Make 'em come get them. If they figure that they can count on them, they have no need to change.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, there's hope for this country and even this party yet!

....the 2000 election cycle when this same thing happened and what we've suffered with since. There are a select few that will never be convinced of the error of their ways but most common sense minded people will see the point.

reform on a massive scale, perhaps even a constitutional convention. The two parties, more alike than different, have conspired to entrench themselves in power and insulate themselves from challenge. They represent the interests of such a narrow minority of Americans that it is an enormous stretch to refer anymore to our brand of government as democracy.

I dont feel right being forced to vote for republican Democtats like Liberman and many others just because people call it stupid.

With many right wing Democrats around the GOP wins either way. (there almost all backes by Corporate$$$) Voting a third party may not win right away, but a large number of people voting for another candidate that actually supports the left might remind the Democrats which end of the political spectrum they belong.

I see the forest alright, and it's too red anywhere I look.

Right now it is all about 2006 and getting a house of congress back...

Even if you vote for a crappy dem, and you are unhappy, do it. If the our party wins a house back, our party gets all the chairman slots and we can say what moves to the floor for vote

Want to stop Bush next judge - VOTE DEM ANY DEM
Stop Massive tax cuts to the rich - VOTE DEM ANY DEM
stop the Anti-gay rights people - VOTE DEM ANY DEM

and so on...

I'd rather see Ned Lamont in the Senate than Joseph Lieberman. Joe's been there long enough.