How many DUers believe that the Mexican flag-waving during recent protests

before they show up and make me sick.

Redstone

.... it starts good....

I've seen a completely new side of DU these last two weeks.

But you're right... argh!


I'm still proud of my American heritage, even though the America Chimpy has created has nothing to do with my American heritage.


I'm sick of all the in-fighting on this. We just need to hold the hiring corporations accountable and keep people from sending money to Mexico... it would all be over by now.


:shrug:

back home to support 10, than to have no money sent back and all 10 move here?

The money sent home supports the family farm, the family business, and makes it possible for most the family to stay in the familiar, familial home where they can visit with their ancestors on the Day of the Dead, and participate in the fiestas and celebrations they were raised with.

Know what? 10 million Mexicans have moved to the US. 97 million have not. For some reason, they prefer the land and culture they were raised in. And given the opportunity to cross back and forth at will, most of the 10 million would do so, leaving a bare couple million, if that, who choose to become US citizens. They don't do so now because the chances of being caught and unable to return to their jobs is too great, which would imperil the family they are supporting.

While this is happening, tens of thousands of Americans are moving south of the border where their retirement money will stretch much farther in Mexico, Costa Rica, Belize -- you name it. That flow will likely get bigger as the boomers retire. And who knows how global climate change will affect migratory patterns. The American breadbasket could become desert, and the Mexican desert could become a fertile paradise, with ample rain and abundant crops. A position favoring open borders now could save a lot of grief in twenty years.

You never know.

None of them would move here, except the people that truly want to become Americans.


You can't own property in Mexico unless you were born there.

Hmmm.....(stroking chin thoughtfully)

Only two choices, one hinting at xenophobia and the other talking about mere ethnic pride.....and no context whatsoever, like the placing of an Mexican flag over an upside down US flag.....

I wonder how a few hundred posts get boiled down to two options, one of them made intentionally worse than the other?

Haven't we had enough of the false choices these past few years?

On Michelle Malkin's website. I believe that proper flag etiquette should be followed.

But I'm not buying into the Right Wing hysteria about the Mexican Flag.

This is a bogus poll. I did not vote. Ridiculous to make this an either/or controversy. The protest act was BOTH about Mexican pride and about putting the lofty United States in its place. We may not like it but that is why it's effective in stimulating debate. It shows group strength and confidence among the protestors in speaking out (one of our basic "freedoms"). We are not used to seeing that from Mexicans. You can argue all day about what message would have been better and how it should have been done...but that's all moot. It has accomplished its purpose.

"The protest act was BOTH about Mexican pride and about putting the lofty United States in its place."

But to me, it was directed at the U.S. Government, not towards the United States in general, not towards the people who populate this country, and not even towards the American flag, judging by how many American flags outnumbered Mexicans flags at the protests.

And surely, we as democrats, should be able to differentiate between hating your government and respecting your country.

For that matter, we are not used to seeing that from Americans.

Maybe what's upsetting so many people is that the only folks we've seen with any balls, imported them.

As they say South of the Border

especially since NAFTA has ruined many farmers' lives, lowering the price of corn.

We would be buying corn from them and increasing their living conditions...


Ten thousand people, mostly children, go to bed hungry every night in Los Angeles county alone. Are you saying I should be more concerned with starving people in another country as opposed to my own country? There needs to be a better way. There is enough food in this world for everyone, it just isn't properly managed.

beings. Not only is the price of corn ruined in Mexico, the quality has been compromised by the genetically engineered corn sent by US.

Why not complain about all the money Big Business sends to the Bahamas in tax-free, offshore corporate accounts instead of the few dollars the immigrants send to help feed and clothe their families in Mexico.

All this would be moot.

When I say corporations should be held accountable, that should include all their dealings that lead to monies leaving our economy.

The last estimate I heard was that 20 billion dollars is sent to Mexico annually.

http://www.borderlandnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060406/NEWS/604060339

Properly managed, that kind of money could go very far in making Mexico a better trade partner and a better place to live for all.

39% taking the right-wing position on a progressive board.

I'm just wondering how is that taking the right-wing positiion? I mean how is not disrepectful to go raising a another country's flag over the US flag in the US? If it's not disrespectful then what is the meaning or purpose of doing it? I can't rationalized any positive in doing so unless your wanting to stur up shit. What do they expect US citzens are going to think of them waving flags of another country? Myself personally I see someone doing something like that I take that as their not serious at all about coming over the boarder and truly becoming US citzens, their just here for the money that is all. On the point of it being an expression of culture, I don't see it all, I mean no ethnic group in america parades around with a foreign flag claiming it's culture (Minus racist with Confederate flag and if I had my way every example of this flag would cease to exist). The symbols ethnic groups use to express their culture is the holidays, foods and customs that make them unique, over time it all falls into the mixing bowl we call the United states and it becomes everyone's culture. So how can a foreign flag become that? Do we just rip old glory in half and take do the same with the mexican flag but the two together to make them feel more at home or something? I don't think so, if mexico is so important to them, why leave, stay and try to make it better if they have so much national pride!!!!!!

and I'm not even Irish! Does that make me a traitor?

The problem with the Mexicans is they chose to wave their flag when it wasn't even Cinco de Mayo! Of all the nerve.

Care to stir up another meaningless tempest in a teapot that the rightwingers want to get us all worked up about?

My, how you help them promote their bullshit "issues" to distract use from what's actually important.

Redstone

They've sucked DUers into their vortex of bullshit.

Redstone

how many #1 choosers have every worn, flashed or waved a peace sign.

Redstone

Either that or this poll has been freeped. Sad, sad day.... Xenophobia runs deep on DU...

Ignorance + Fear = Xenophobia

how about a third option of other ?
lol

Isn't that why Texas seceded from Mexico was slavery?

In 1835, Antonio López de Santa Anna, President of Mexico, proclaimed a unified constitution for all Mexican territories, including Texas. North American settlers in Texas announced they intended to secede from Mexico rather than give up their "right" to slavery, which Mexico had abolished. Other policies that irritated the Texians included the forcible disarmament of Texian settlers, and the expulsion of illegal immigrants from the United States of America. The example of the Centralista forces' suppression of dissidents in Zacatecas also inspired fear of the Mexican government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas

Jim Bowie died at the Alamo. James Fannin commanded the troops at the old Presidio of Goliad, surrendered & died in the massacre ordered by Santa Ana. They are both considered Heroes of the Revolution, but have another link.

Both of them had illegally imported slaves into the US before coming to Texas. (Bringing slaves into the country was banned long before slavery ended.) Some of the early Texian settlers had brought slaves with them, sometimes calling them "indentured servants" to get around Mexican law. However, the slave trade was DEFINITELY illegal in Texas. Bowie & Fannin didn't live long enough to reap the benefits of the Texas Revolution.

i think people can wave whatever they want whenever they want.
doesnt mean anyone hasta like it or agree with it tho.

you know, i dare say people on DU who have said people shouldnt be allowed to fly the 'bars n stripes' say this is fine.

i think you'll find hypocrisy everywhere you turn on this issue, no matter the stance taken, or what side of the isle you side with mostly.

thats why this country is great! its a hypocrisy inside of a hypocrisy!

Flying the flag of another country and flying a flag of treason?

I've seen Irish flags flown during St. Patrick's Day parades, I've seen Mexican flags flown on Cinco de Mayo, I've seen Canadian flags flown over hotels in FL during the winter. I've also seen Confederate flags (both the Stars and Bars and the Battle Flag of the Army of N. VA) flown in parades, from cars, and even on courthouse squares and yes, in protests. They all represent cultural pride and freedom of expression, as do the Mexican flags flown during the protests.

He and all the other Repukes will wrap themselves in it if they find it politically expedient.

Let's make our flags a weapon of discrimination.
This is why I think extreme nationalism and it's idiot twin brother fundamentalist religion both suck.

or maybe none at all?

The city I lived in for 10 years had every Latin American flag known flying from houses, buildings, cars...

Every time one of them won the World Cup, it was all over. Parades with thousands of flags flying. And if something Cuba was happening, dozens of Cuban flags in front of City Hall and the Courthouse.

So, a few Mexican flags at a protest doesn't bother me one bit. Bothers me less, actually, than the "yoo-ess-ay" chanting I hear too often.

Maybe that's the reason I'm so flabbergasted at the reactions I've seen on DU over this matter.

and there was a welcome mat out for any Hispanics or Portuguese-- I think it was about 60% Latin. Parts of Hudson and Bergen counties were pretty much the same. Some GOOD EATING in those towns! Love that Brazilian barbecue.

Big stink in South Joisey where the Mexicans and Dominicans hung out in the Home Depot parking lots waiting for crew leaders for daywork, though. We had organized hiring halls in my area so they weren't so obvious.

I live in El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciuncula... you can't live here all your life and not have compassion for our brothers and sisters in Mexico.

You don't have to live in Miami to care.

I just figured he was talking about Miami because of what he said here: "And if something Cuba was happening, dozens of Cuban flags in front of City Hall and the Courthouse."

They made their political statement and I'm fine with it. I'm fine with ANY flag being flown whether it's for cultural pride, protest or whatever.

Yes, I know some think that waving a Mexican flag, unlike waving an American flag, is a powerful totem that fights racism and wins the day. Maybe it is. But that's not the point.

All I would say is that an expression of ethnic pride in Mexico is somewhat incongruous with a parade for rights to immigrate to the US, unless it is to tell us that Mexico and Mexicans are so fine that any sort of immigration is trading up. And I would have to keep saying it, apparently, forever and ever and ever.

Most of us will NOT be fooled.

There appears to be no shortage.

Redstone

It's been corrected.

I happen to be PRO immigration. Very much so. In case you didn't know.

Redstone

Forgive me if I didn't catch the sarcasm in your OP.

Redstone

It's the funniest video ever.

Redstone

Redstone

It's hard to decipher intent and tone of a message on the Internet. I guess that's what the sarcasm smilie is for.

I'm an idiot. I accidental edited the wrong word and now it's too late to edit.

Jewish people waving the Israeli flag, anti-Vietnam War demonstrators waving the Viet Cong flag, Southerners waving the Confederate flag, and maybe -- just to add spice to the mix -- Britishers waving the Union Jack: all this of course in protests in the main streets of major (and in the case of the Confederate flag, non-Southern) U.S. cities.

While you're at it, add to the mix the fact that in some (and perhaps many) Mexican communities on the West Coast and in the Southwestern U.S., the majority viewpoint is that the land (including Oregon and Washington) was stolen from Mexico and should be taken back -- if necessary by force. Which makes at least some of the Mexican flag-waving an act of nationalistic defiance.

Then try to respond consistently.

I can't -- and the either-or alternative presented above doesn't begin to describe my stance: I'm NOT outraged (because the United States no longer exists as anything save a corporate fiefdom and thus to wave the U.S. flag is to wave the symbol of ultimate greed and exploitation); but I'm also very aware of the reconquista implications of the Mexican flag-waving; and I'm therefore deeply concerned that the immigrants themselves have probably damaged their cause thereby -- destroying forever any possibility of solidarity with U.S. workers.

Nationalistic defiance?

:rofl:

http://www.zermeno.com/ElPlanEspiritualdeAztlan.pdf

Here's the site itself:

http://www.zermeno.com/mecha.htm

And there are many others identical to this one including my own university alma mater. Google "MEChA" and scroll with eyes open, head out of sand and mind no longer in ostrich/PC mode. Truth is not bigotry.

While you're at it, I respectfully suggest you stop sneering long enough to reflect on the fact that such nationalism is a natural, logical reaction to the blatantly bourgeois class-prejudice of the U.S. economy, a bigotry that is especially intense in the (corporate-run) public school system: precisely the same economic bigotry that produced the Black Nationalist Movement 30 years ago and that yet today drives so many Afro-Americans to bottomless despair.

As I said (and as you in your reflexive political correctness chose to ignore) the U.S. flag today represents nothing save capitalism run amok: infinite greed, total exploitation, ultimately and within a very few years, a technologically-maintained torture-and-concentration-camp tyranny unprecedented in human experience.

Hence, given the death of the American Experiment and the proto-Fourth Reich the U.S. has become, nationalistic defiance of the MEChAista type may well be -- as is often the case with colonized peoples -- their only viable alternative. This is especially true given the ruinous absence of any international workers' movement. (Indeed I was backhandedly defending the demonstrators, not trashing them: I apologize if that was too subtle for you.)

And if it makes you feel better about Bush Regime America to ignore such ugly truths as I have reported above, be my guest.

And forgive me for not being dazzled by your subtlety.

I think, though, that you have fingered a fundamental difference between my people and the #1 choosers. We value people over nationalism. It is sort of inevitable that some chicano college kids should inhere nationalism as a solution because by definition, they are longtime residents in American culture.

/o

I remember the early days of Chicano rights. And I know what Aztlan means.

www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MEChAindex.html

I understand your concern. But anyone who swallows the American Patrol tripe whole is probably a lost cause.

college years c. 1971-1976, and the modern-day link I provided above -- typical of several I found -- suggests there's been little change. (Yeah, if you're at all familiar with my posts you know I was a lot older than the normal student; even with the GI Bill, poverty denied me a BA until I was nearly 37.)

Since then, a lot of years in journalism plus nearly two decades in rural Washington have kept me, as it were, up to speed on this topic and many others.

Never heard of "American Patrol" until you linked to them, and from scanning their site I agree it's mostly "tripe" -- fascist tripe at that. But in any case I never rely on hearsay: whenever possible I go directly to prime sources, precisely as I did above.

My sense of it -- and that is exactly what it is (an impression) -- is that there is an age-and-class division in the Mexican community over the Aztlan issue, with the older, more established people (especially those who have been granted U.S. citizenship) indifferent if not downright opposed to the concept and the younger and/or less well established folks approving. Two public high-school teachers I know say the Mexican teens in their classes universally support reconquista (a fact that has become a major source of schoolyard ethnic and racial tensions); by contrast, some of the Mexican parents are deeply disturbed by these attitudes and ironically (and inappropriately) blame the teachers for the radicalization of their children.

Another impression -- this based on my years in rural Washington (where there is a large and increasing Mexican community) -- is that the pro-Aztlan sentiment is directly proportionate to anti-Mexican bigotry: the more bigotry, the more support for reconquista -- and not just among younger people.

My point -- and I am frankly astonished at how difficult this is for some otherwise-intelligent people to grasp -- is actually threefold: (1), that whatever the prevalence of reconquista or separatist sentiment, it has to be acknowledged for what it is: that it (like Black Nationalism 30 years ago) is an entirely legitimate critique of U.S. policies and an utterly justifiable outcry against the oppression inherent in capitalism; (2), that precisely because of its legitimacy it can only become more widespread; and (3), that (despite its legitimacy) its propagation is in the interest of the ruling class precisely because it eliminates -- probably forever -- any possibility U.S. and Mexican workers will join in a united front: again the parallel to Black Nationalism, which was deliberately manipulated to destroy black/white solidarity.

To censor these facts in the name of political correctness is merely to play into the hands of the ruling class, which is doing everything in its power to make sure we do not understand the true parameters of the immigration debate: that workers on both sides of the fence are equally the victims of capitalism.

Once again, the missing element in the equation is class-struggle -- the historical truth that makes everything else undeniably clear (including the significance of Aztlan as a sole alternative in the absence of an international workers' movement) -- and the ruling class will do literally anything (including the turning of political correctness against the politically correct) to see that class-struggle is kept out of the picture.

"While you're at it, add to the mix the fact that in some (and perhaps many) Mexican communities on the West Coast and in the Southwestern U.S., the majority viewpoint is that the land (including Oregon and Washington) was stolen from Mexico and should be taken back -- if necessary by force."

I spent eight years living in New Mexico, Arizona and Southern California, all which were part of Mexico before 1848, and I never found anything remotely close to the "majority viewpoint" of Mexican communities spouting such views.

And trust me, I had lots of Mexican friends and co-workers as well as two serious Mexican girlfriends during the time I lived out there. I've drank plenty of Tecates and downed loads of Cuervo shots at Mexican family barbecues and never once heard anybody say something like that.

The only reason that the historical aspect is ever brought up in the first place is because so many Americans make Mexicans, including Mexican-Americans, feel so damn unwelcome in this country.

They just find it ironic that the land that was stolen from their forefathers, land that generations of Mexicans have cultivated, landscaped and harvested for more than a century, is deemed off-limits to them.

The truth is, they just want to be part of this society.

And the threat of reconquista is only treated seriously by Right Wing Idiots.

Check out my avatar & you may understand MY opinion of Borders. Not worth taking up a gun to erase--but not worth taking seriously.

Time will tell.

Who believed Clinton was going to break into their homes and steal their guns.

I can also see a USMC and a US flag on the same poll. My neighbor is very proud of who he is and the things in his life that have shaped him.

Where I live in Texas I see Mexican flags everyday. I didn't understand why it caused people to react the way they did considering how common it is for Mexican-Americans to be proud of their heritage.

http://www.bangitout.com/parade/parade.htm





where is the outrage ?

Four Israeli flags, and only one American flag!

They want to take over the country!

(edit)

Is that enough outrage? I could give you some more if you think it's necessary.

Just trying to help.

I don't have a problem with it but it is a lightning rod for racists on the right.

I love flags. The Mexicans KNOW they are code for "immigrant"
I am married to a MexAm who was born here long (70 yrs). Speaks like you or I, but is still a "mexican" to many, many, Anglos.
Sometimes I only fly my Calif flag for months at a time.

I am not an "American," I am an Irish-American, and yes I fly the Irish flag. And of course I have loyalty to my heritage that is on par with my loyalty to my country.

His parents came from East Galway. He's not the only one in the family to have the Stars & Stripes covering his coffin.

YES, okay, I instigated 2 of these.

It seems to be that some people will find the Mexican protestor's behaviour offensive. I wish it were otherwise, but there you go. People don't think the way I do. On this particular subject, i find that particularly depressing.

the confederate flag?

I've seen them on TV, and never saw any Nazi salutes from them. Or any Confederate flags.

I mean, if the Minutemen were really neo-nazi racist assholes, CNN would tell us so, wouldn't they?

Wouldn't they?

:puke:

35 people chose that it's insulting to the United States and this is supposed to be a progressive community? Fuck me...

I heard there was a lot of hispanics attacking white kids who were showing their cultural pride. WTF is up with that? Respect those who respect me. No respect for me and I will give you none.

"white kids showing their cultural pride?"

Got any specifics for us?

...I didn't think so.

Redstone

on their clothes .

Why do you automatically assume the worst when a white person is involved and then assume the best when another race is involved?

Thats racism dude. Defined.

You don't think somebody would have posted that in GD by now?

You don't think that would have made the Greatest Page as the Greatest Proof that the Mexicans are our Greatest Threat?

You don't think Fox, MSNBC and CNN would have used it to fuel the immigration hysteria in this country?

You didn't hear shit. You just made that up.

Otherwise..it's just idle bullshit Freeper speculation.

Where is your link? Where is your proof??

You already have your mind made up.

You are the ones acting like freepers. Anyway Im bored with this drivel. Enjoy yer hatefest.

For my 1000 post, I will point out to you that your simple statement there is exactly why so many of those protesters were carrying the flag of their heritage and resent being condemned for doing so.

They feel that the current bills, amendments, and resolutions in Congress, which could potentially make criminals out of millions of people in this country, show the ultimate in disrespect. A slap in the face attack, so to speak, upon people who live in this country, thrive in its communities, and enjoy making America their home. Not "illegal" people, at all, but solid, hard-working, families with the exact same values and dreams of success and struggles against set-backs as any other average American.

They're in the same boat as the rest of us and our government has chosen to single them out, building imaginary walls to make them seem separate and threatening. A response of solidarity and pride and defiance should be expected, whenever any government chooses to demonize any one race, or nationality, or class, of people. Legislating discrimination is what started this whole brouhaha and that is where the "no respect" aspect begins.

:sarcasm: :evilgrin: I know, I know. Im sorry. :)

And they weren't kidding.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2548901#2555056

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But that is the reason I posted this in the first place. I wanted to get an honest breakdown on how people on DU really felt on the issue. Obviously there are people on both sides of the issue who voted in the poll, but did not post a comment.

I am seeing DU in a new light these last two weeks. I've been hearing the same talking points I used to hear in Arizona, which ironically enough, came from people like myself who were not even native to Arizona. Most had moved from the Midwest (unlike myself) and wasted no time in complaining about all the Mexicans in Arizona.

It's the main reason why I hated Arizona. That and the 120 degree summers. But up until now, I had always assumed they were all republicans who were talking like that.

Oh, OK. I just figured you were trying to reignite last weekend's epic flamewars.

about the issue. What exactly was the issue again?

how very, very good other people are.

But good and bad, those are concepts that imply that I am imposing the values and mores of my own society and not some other, probably superior society. Therefore I would rather not use "good" or "bad".

Would it be acceptable if I used a proxy for good and bad, such as, assuming that people who agree with me are good and people who disagree with me are bad? It's much easier to determine if someone agrees with me or not.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Surely, as a progressive, you can see that.

There's remarkably little of that around here, since we have a small band of posters determined to silence anyone who disagrees with them on the immigration issue by loudly and relentlessly accusing them of being evil.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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.

What does tolerance have to do with having an opinion such as that in the OP, which simply judges the symbolism of the flag waving, not whether or not it's permissible?

I mean, I see a mexican flag over an upside down american flag, and I see a symbolism, and I'm insulted.....so? I'm insulted all the time by free speech, but that hardly makes me intolerant of either the speech or the people making it. Whether one is insulted has nothing to do with tolerates the speech.

See, you keep trying to back into immigration issues like a fiddler crab, talking about racism and intolerance, implicitly making immigration rights a form of tolerance. It's not, and that's why this thread is entirely flamebait, because it avoids real issues for accusations. It's a shit thread, and I'm entirely pleased that so few have risen to the bait.

Who is talking about a Mexican flag being flown over an upside down American flag?

Where is that mentioned in any of the two threads on the "Mexican flag issue"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2548901

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=816765

Which included one of the matters that people found insulting, a mexican flag over an upside down ameican flag. So maybe that's what people were thinking of.

If you wanted to support your conclusion about any or all scenarios, you should have had a different question. But your conclusions are pretty much unrelated. It's that kind of thread.

Maybe you could tell me whether it's okay if they found that insulting, but I doubt you will. It's not that sort of thread.

You continue trying to twist this debate into something else.

"Which included one of the matters that people found insulting, a mexican flag over an upside down ameican flag. So maybe that's what people were thinking of."

I provided two links for you to see if "maybe that's what people were thinking of."

And now you're telling me, "Maybe you could tell me whether it's okay if they found that insulting, but I doubt you will. It's not that sort of thread."

I'm not going to answer because that will create a whole new discussion on a whole different scenario, which of course, will divert attention from the original question. So maybe you can start own poll with that scenario. But if you do, please back it up with an actual link to an article that describes that scenario.

YOU started it and referred specifically to the rallies. Now it's my fault for actually knowing what went on at the rallies, instead of threads.

Maybe if you knew what actually happened and what people would be thinking of when they answered your question, you might understand the result better and be able to apply it to the issues du jour.

But you resist. It's not that type of thread.

At least I assume you were there. How many Mexican flags were flown over upside down American flags? Why haven't I seen any pictures?

Must be that liberal media again.

I guess it does. I guess it isn't really about flag waving in just any old context, like you pretended.

But as much as you want to change the subject, you can't. I don't have to be there. I just have to raise it as a matter that makes it abundantly clear that your references in the OP makes it impossible to make it about ethnic pride generally or flag waving generally. But I can't get you to actually do more than pretend it's about being for or against Mexicans, or for or against tolerance, or for or against sweetness and light. It's not that sort of thread.

what you said.

It's supported by your OP.

So what's your point, besides making me look something up? Can't you call me a racist and intolerant now, before I do the work, because the point of the thread is to end up there?

It's that sort of thread.

Now I said that the immigrants were flying the Mexican flag over an upside down American flag?

It's that sort of thread. There never was anything substantive to grab onto, so there's no way to make you read your own words and show you the incongruity between your conclusions and your own push poll. Sad, that. I can't make you ever admit that there's something more going on in the wide world than your conclusion about who is a certain type of person and who is not. That's what this thread is about, really. You sorting the wheat from the chaff.

It's a compliment to DU that nobody takes it seriously enough to be insulted by it, as they are with the event depicted below.

I can see how you missed the thread with the pictures. It only had 550 responses. Thanks for making me look it up for no reason.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=781990

But you're talking about one issue involving high school kids whereas I was talking about the thousands of immigrants who were marching in various cities.

The poll is what is was; nothing more, nothing less.

I was just curious as to where DU stands on the issue. And thanks to that poll, I am now very clear on where DU stands on the issue.

And I wouldn't call that a compliment.

If it's something more than your idiosyncratic conclusions about who'saved and who's damned, I can't figure it out. I don't see a single substantive post that hasn't been ignored, and I see plenty of backslapping of the sheep and damning of the goats. There's nothing else here.

I'm proud that the bait hasn't been taken. It seems that DU's stand on THAT is quite a compliment.

Whatever you say.

I just point it out. Can we let this shit thread die now?

the immigration threads. We dont have a whole lot of illegals in NH, so what the hell do I know. I probably shouldnt have hypothesized as to why the #1'a hadnt posted. Its certainly possible, even likely that it was way off the mark. I didnt realize the flag thing was so heated. Not the time to wonder out loud I see. I guess I just dont understand why a Mexican flag would be seen as a threat to our own. But then again, Im also ok with flag burning & with getting rid of them altogether. Theres too much fighting over them, IMO.

They are the ones who call in the Minutemen.

I know a guy who lives in Houston but owns a fair amount of land down there. He had trouble with break-ins--but the guy doing it lives in Mexico, crossing the Border to do petty crime & going back home. The police dealt with him. I've never heard him worrying about Mexicans just passing through. If he NEEDED somebody shot, he could do it himself. He hasn't felt the need.

If it wasn't obvious from post no. one, it's clear from the rest of the thread that disagreement gets one called a racist, a hypocrite, a right winger, and that's just warming up.

There's no good faith effort to find out what people think, beyond just enough to put them in a category and call them names.

Look at this thread. There's a ton of stuff but I can't tell for a second what the position is on immigration. Open borders? Amnesty? For other than Mexicans? I have no idea, because nobody ever feels it necessary to say more than some PC confusion of immigration issues with racism and ethnic pride and this flag horseshit. There's no sense wading into a thread that has nothing besides that.

It's silly and stupid. It just goes to prove that some people type faster than they think.

But the thread was based on words that were used in the thread from GD: Politics. I admit I screwed up wording in my editing, but here are the words that I based it on:

One DUer:
"Raising Mexican flags not only means they put Mexico over America in terms of country quality, they are proving their loyalty to America is pretty phony too."

Another DUer: "It's about showing disrespect to OUR country, pure and simple.

The Saint Patty's day and occasionally Italian food festival is about HERITAGE and not about NATIONALISM - and comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

Flying the Mexican Flag is in that instance - and in that one instance alone, is a slap in the face to MY country, and I'm sick of it."

And another DUer:

"It's not hysteria when a bunch of extremist freaks are bandying about such stalwart ideals as these: http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm "

some people actually feel that anyone coming to this country from anywhere should show a little respect by flying the flag of this land and not defame our flag.

And still, another DUer:

"What many people do have a problem with is defaming the flag. People have fought and died for the freedoms that flag represents so for no other reason than that, the flag should be held in respect."

And, of course, another DUer has to remember the fucking Alamo.

"It is definitely about loyalty....but in Texas, there is a bit........

......of a difference. We had brave men, both Texian and Mexican who fought and died in places like the Alamo, to remove any allegiance to a Mexican flag. So, rightly or wrongly, it IS a little more personal for some of us natives."



All that because of this:
(hint - note the abundance of American flags)























All you people out there bitching about the protesters waving the Mexican flag, you disgust me.

You seem to enjoy filling it with lame posts.

Good response.

Is that thread is based on other threads where plenty of DUers displayed a lot of resentment because the protesters were waving Mexican flags. If you want to talk about open borders and amnesty, there have been plenty of other threads on those subjects.

This thread was about nothing else but that goddamn flag that has caused so many progressives to show their true colors.

It boils down to whether you have an issue with the Mexicans waving their flag or whether you don't have an issue with the Mexicans waving their flag. Nothing else.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x866650#868354

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=816765

rallies/protests. Therefore it DOESN'T "boil down to whether you have an issue with the Mexicans waving their flag", as if it could be a) Mexicans waving their flag in Mexico or b) Mexicans waving their flag on Cinco de Mayo or c) Mexicans waving their flag in a context OTHER THAN demanding to be able to live in the US. That's because of the reference in YOUR OWN WORDS, period, full stop.

It's pretty clear that you want to make the debate about immigration solely about whether one dislikes Mexicans and their pride. It's not, and won't become so just because you say it "boils down to that" as it suits you.

You know, that post to which you are responding. Here, I'll cut and paste it for you here. I will underline the part you apparently missed.

"What should have been obvious from the OP

Is that thread is based on other threads where plenty of DUers displayed a lot of resentment because the protesters were waving Mexican flags. If you want to talk about open borders and amnesty, there have been plenty of other threads on those subjects.

This thread was about nothing else but that goddamn flag that has caused so many progressives to show their true colors.

It boils down to whether you have an issue with the Mexicans waving their flag or whether you don't have an issue with the Mexicans waving their flag. Nothing else."

So this whole scenario you have created where I am trying to mislead the DUer into thinking that perhaps I meant waving the flag on some other occasion such as Cinco de Mayo, or in Mexico, or in a "context OTHER THAN demanding to be able to live in the US", is false.

Nothing but a lie.

when your OP makes it clear that there's much going on in context. You can't put the flag waving in a specific context and then pretend it "boils down to" being the same as flag waving in all other contexts.

If you wanted a straight up discusssion of whether ethinc pride is legitimate, you could have posted a question without the immigration rally context. Something like, "Is a Mexican Flag An Insult to America?" and watch the happy, tolerant, and non-racist result. But you had some other goal in mind.

You see, if the immigrants would have been burning the American flag during their demonstration, I don't there would have been any doubt that their actions was an insult to the United States.

But the fact that they're waving the Mexican flag, in my opinion, is not an insult to the United States. Obviously, others disagree with me.

I think the people answering in the poll are very clear on where they stand on the issue. You seem to be the only person confused about it.

The only person who deletes the context of the immigration rally is you. Everyone else thought they were reading your post.

That's why you keep saying it "boils down to" whether it's wrong to wave the Mexican flag, and simply ignore the posts that refer to confusion over the symbolism at an immigration rally.

Please, stop twisting the story, stop creating scenarios. I'm not falling for them.

Um. Uh. Italy?

like a good little pastafarian. ;)

I expected more from DU. This looks like some kind of freeper poll.
I'm wondering if I'll eventually wind up having to hide some of my Hispanic neighbors from the cattle cars.
I don't like what is happening in this country.

Last I looked, 39% of DUers found some offense in the flying of the Mexican flag. I'm a school teacher in a largely Hispanic school and we had a massive walkout by our kids last week. There is a LOT of racial-sentiment among the kids. This is being universally pitched on all sides as a racial conflict. I think that's a real shame. But yes, in the aftermath I've heard more and more expressions of outright anti-American statements (This country sucks. All white people are racists.) from among the kids. I've gotten several accusations of being a racist myself--something that has never happened in all my years of teaching.

My point is that the cause of liberalism and an inclusive, colorblind society is losing in this struggle. Flying the Mexican flag feeds the enemy of multiculturalism and tolerance. When things cooled down later in the week, I discussed this with my students and they started to see that it would've been smarter to fly both flags, which is what the "Irish" Americans do on St Paddy's. (Actually most people who think they're Irish on March 17th are really Scotch-Irish by surname and American mutt by ethnicity, but it's impossible to compete with green beer when you're only armed with logic).

Can't imagine how those kids got the idea that Americans are racists, what with our various wars on brown people. If the jackboot fits put it on and stomp away. I'm glad these kids are facing the truth about the disconnect between what they are taught about America and what history really shows.
So flying the Mexican flag "feeds the enemy of multiculturalism and tolerance"? I guess gay people shouldn't put a rainbow flag on their house and liberals shouldn't put anti-Bush posters in their windows for fear of "feeding the enemy". Sounds like placating the enemy to me.
Anybody can wave whatever god damned flag they want. I wave the constitution.

Next time you go, please suggest they remove all the flags but one.



www.texancultures.utsa.edu/public/index.htm

American flag down there. I think it would be kind of insulting.

When I am in Mexico I have a Mexican flag that I put up on political holidays, out of respect for their fight for independence and their democratic establishment.

:sarcasm:

I wouldn't wave the American flag either. I don't even wave the damn flag here.

But I tell you what. If the Mexican government suddenly decided to pass a law that made every American expat living in Mexico an instant felon, I will go online, order an American flag and wave it in defiance.

If you do what you say you'd love to, live in Mexico as an expat, I think you'd change your mind. It wouldn't be about any worry of the government enforcing any laws either, it would be at least downright fool-hardy, at worst life threatening. I lived there for ten years as an expat (from the US), married and had a business and many, maybe a dozen or so, was the time when I became "Canadian"
rather than risk a serious dust-up over what was in reality a trivial matter. I say trivial, like flying a US flag, though even that is something I know wouldn't have done.

Living on the ground, living a life day to day outside the bubble of the US, the rubber meets the road. I'm only saying 'cause it seems like a lot of the arguments here, and I'm not just saying YOU or singling your post out, are I'm sure heartfelt.

peace

At first, I loved it. Then I went through a phase where I hated it and started missing simple American things like a decent hamburger or a milkshake. Then finally I accepted it for what it was; a society with its advantages and disadvantages and unique cultural quirks.

When I was 15, I spent a year going to school in Colombia. My family is from there. I still travel to Colombia every few years for vacation and would even like to live there again, but in Cartagena, not in Bogota where I had lived.

It's a beautiful country, beautiful people, beautiful culture, but it has its issues. It has its advantages and disadvantages and unique cultural quirks.

And since returning to the US from Europe, I've lived in New Mexico, Arizona and California before returning to Miami, where I was born.

So I'm am driven by a certain wanderlust. I would love to live in Mexico, somewhere on the coast, but I would also love to live somewhere in Italy.

And I'm not sure if I would be able to live in any of those places for the rest of my life. But when I do a leave a place, I am sure to retain those cultural aspects that I found appealing, whether it be food, music, tradition, etc.

I have read and heard people seeing the darkest designs of those people. That they want to take back California for Mexico, etc. Having lived in Southern CA for a long time I find it very hard to believe that the majority of those people believe that at all. In fact its probably less then 1% of them that want that. It becomes bad b/c of media portrayal of it. Those of us who have lived there realize that its nonsense, but I guess the people who live in a rural area like Kansas and have never been to LA don't understand the region and the media plays to their fears.

I see it has a pride thing. I live in NY and here there seems to be some nationality's parade almost monthly with all the flags and stuff. If I see a guy walking with an Irish flag on St. Pats day do I think he wants NY to join Ireland? Of course not!

But then Sfexpat2000 and I have both grown up with immigrants as friends (some are just plain ol' family we're so close).

I grew up in Miami and for me, immigration was just a normal part of American life.

But today I was talking to a Puerto Rican friend of mine who was born and raised in NY, and another a Mexican-American friend of mine who grew up in Tucson, and they both said the same thing. It has a lot to do where you grew up.

Many Americans who grew up in monocultures are just afraid of other cultures, for whatever reasons. And obviously, it really has nothing to do with how progressive they are.

And I just find that sad.

Growing up in Southern California, well, I have always felt privileged. I never get bored; there is always great food - a million different kinds - and there's always plenty to do! Everyone you meet is interesting, and has a story. Long live variety!

It's what defines this country. To me, the Mexicans waving their flags are a perfect example of what makes this country great. Every immigration group brings a piece of their culture to the U.S. and we have benefited because of it.

I used to think this was a sentiment shared by most progressives.

Sorry I am so late posting! I'm marching with the immigrants on Sunday!

productive to me when a lot of people SAY they want to live and work in the US but are waving the flag of Mexico. I can only think, if I wanted to become a legal resident of Italy (where my son ,lives and works) I wouldn't think it would further my interest by waving a US flag!

Before you call names, you should think about what it is you're trying to accomplish. If you claim to want to be part of the US, don't you think it just might be a better idea to wave the flag of the Country you're asking to accept you, or at least no flag at all?

St Pat's Day was a religious holiday in Ireland--although they now have parades over there. Irish immigrants & Irish-Americans were made to feel ashamed of their Irish roots by the WASP culture of the US. (And by the earlier Irish immigrants who began calling themselves Scots-Irish to distance themselves from the Irish-Catholic masses.)

Early St Patrick's Day parades WERE Protests demanding respect for Irish Roots AND pointing out that they were Americans, too. The Day has not always been just an excuse to drink green beer & vomit in the street.

Or is just wanting to be IN the US enough?

I think that's the question that is avoided in this thread. IMO, being allowed to immigrate has nothing to do with the potential immigrant's ethnic pride, and should have much to do with wanting to be an American.

I think if I were demonstrating to stay in a country I'd want to show my affection for that country by waving that country's flag. Waving the Mexican flag did not help their cause.

What's the difference?

Or other Southern Italian. I have friends who are from Sicilian roots and they are often mistaken for Latinos.
As Bridget Burke notes, the St. Patrick's Day traditions in this country were flag-waving protests for acceptance as Americans. The wearing of the green was too. Now that many in the illegal immigrant community may have a path to legal status, perhaps those who are so afraid of the Mexican flag will worry about other things. Nah.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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I really love Gilbert & Sullivan!

Perhaps tjwash is referring to some of the posts on this thread. Or perhaps he wants on the List!

It is truly sad to see so called liberals not take up the plight of a minority, targeted, scapegoated group. How far we have fallen since the civil rights movement of the 60's. How sad. It was liberals who fought for and got blacks, women, children, European immigrants, etc... more freedoms and rights, equality. Sadly, now we fight amonngst ourselves because so many of the so-called liberals are nothing more than freepers in libs clothing.

I guess fighting for the rights of the oppressed, the marginalized and the preyed upon is no longer viable for so many so-called liberals. For those of you no longer caring about civil rights, don't bother tuning in to Monday's huge protests and marches. It should be a beautiful thing to watch, not since the early 70's has such a mobilization of people taken place. Don't watch, you might get scared...Too many alien flags being waved, too many brown people taking to the streets. Tune out, nothing to see, move along...

Immigration--legal & illegal--is worth much serious discussion.

But those expressing anger at the Mexican flag--or fake "concern" about "mixed messages"--are spreading the Right Wing Talking Point of last week. Of course, some may be innocent dupes....

In a jaded and stage-managed political culture, it is rare to see the eruption of a genuine popular movement. That’s what happened in Los Angeles the other week, when hundreds of thousands of people protested against congressional efforts to crack down on illegal aliens. The marchers, most of them Hispanic, set out from the intersection of Olympic Boulevard and Broadway. By the time the stragglers reached City Hall, California had witnessed the biggest demonstration in its history.

Even more stunning was the sound of a once marginalized community finding its voice. For years, the immigration debate has been exercising politicians, economists, TV pundits, and editorial writers, not to mention the self-styled militia known as the Minutemen, which patrols the southern border. Here, finally, were the janitors, maids, dishwashers, babysitters, garment workers, office cleaners, shelf-stackers, busboys, cooks, gardeners, pool boys, and fruit pickers who do the work that American citizens generally won’t do—at least, not at the wages being offered. Shedding their customary aversion to publicity, the immigrants lambasted the House of Representatives for approving a bill at the end of last year that would make living in the United States without a visa an “aggravated felony,” impose heavy fines on firms that employ illegal aliens, and order the Department of Homeland Security to build a tall fence along sections of the Mexican border.

News of the demonstration spread across the world. Many commentators were heartened by the spectacle; an Irish newspaper saw “the face of a joyously multicultural America.” Not everyone shared that view. On Fox News, Bill O’Reilly accused the demonstrators of intimidation. On talk radio, angry callers claimed that the marchers were “anti-American,” citing the profusion of foreign flags and Spanish-language placards. In fact, many marchers were carrying American flags, some of which were emblazoned with pictures of family members serving in the United States military. (For young immigrants, the surest way to secure American citizenship is often to join the armed forces.) Other marchers brandished signs that said, “We love USA, too.”

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060410ta_talk_cassidy

Agree with Bill O'Reilly. Maybe I need a new political online community.

Classic manipulation of the majority by the elite. Look what it has done to DUers. Split us into freepers and liberals. Trying to divide blacks and latinos. Dividing the lower and middle classes based on race. Making us forget the Elite's massacre of our freedoms and rights, its hemorraging of our nation. Hey is there a war going on?? Yeah, one against brown aliens. These people are masters at distracting and manipulating the gullible and ignorant. So sad to see so many DUers have fallen for thier tactics. Hook, line and sinker.

their RIGHT to wave their culture of origins flag.
I support their RIGHT to even burn the american flag in protest.

I do think, however, they couldn't have done more to hurt their cause. What people emigrate to another country that gives them what their country cannot, and then turn around and make that fucking stupid statement. They just gave the right wing the ammuntion to support anti-immigration laws and most likely turned people who supported them against them.

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

marching and a Bush "townhall".

what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that burning the american flag was a good idea? Again, I support their right to do so, but they cut their own throats on that and created even more problems for their cause which I ultimately believe in.

the American flag and raise Mexico's just for fun. Why? Because Freemont and his country stealers raised their pig looking bear flag and bullied their way into California. I've been there; impressive plaque, and interesting living quarters, qaint town, etc. Ah heck, guess April Fool's has passed.

If they were gathering for mexican pride day or some other cultural event I would absolutely expect them to wave the mexican flag, and would find no error with it. But if they were demonstrating to display their right and passion to be americans, then waving the mexican flag instead of the american flag just seems ironic and severely ineffective towards their message. (as a caveat, if they were waving both, that's a-ok in my book too.)

It's a big FUCK YOU FLAG! This IS AMERICA. And the reason it's a great fucking country is because YOU ARE FREE TO EXPRESS YOURSELVES! Your feelings of "insult" are laughable. Believe it or not, we have bigger issues than some Mexican expressing stupid nationalistic pride. It's a stupid argument feeding into more DIVISIVE BULLSHIT. Because we BOTH, Mexican and Americans, are suffering the same bullshit! And that's our fucked up oppressive criminal governments gone wayyyyy eyrie.


GOD BLESS FUCKED UP AMERICA and may cheesy jingoistic movies make you cry your lives away.

:rant:

I feel better. :smoke:

How you use it really shows the actual answer. Basically, no, it dosen't really do that. That's like saying the UN is insulting itself because it has flags from many countries outside.

Of course, these days if you want to wave a flag of another country, you have to either:

1) Make the flag lower than the USA Flag
2) Not use one at all.


Of course, if you burn the American Flag and then wave the Mexican one, people will shit bricks.

If you leave your native-born country, you're obviously not happy with it and choose not to make it better; leaving being the most extreme non-violent statement one could make.

But by leaving, they're more or less making themselves their own pariahs.

Their "pride" is spurious. They give a shit for nobody except themselves.

"Leaving a sinking ship" is a more apposite epithet for what is going on.

I have no qualms with immigrants. But once here and legal, they are American and for America. Not the country they left.

And if the situation was reversed, other countries would expect the same of me. It works both ways. They would be rather insulted if I went to move to England, became a citizen, and then paraded around with the American flag.

Then there is nothing I can tell you that would help you understand.

BTW, out of curiosity, where did you ancestors emigrate from? And when?

Really, I just don't get this kind of response.

It wasn't a good day to leave the family and go on an excellent adventure.

Do you have ANY idea what that kind of commitment requires?

:puke:

that so many DUers would be so threatened by cultural pride

Then we bitch about what flag they wave on occasion. It takes a lot of nerve of us. If that many are willing to die for us let'em fly what ever they want. :grr::grr::grr: