My mother: "I can tell you've been reading left-wing sites."

:rant:

This is what she said when I mentioned the FACTS:

1. Bush lied us into war
2. Bush spied illegally on American citizens
3. Bush illegally outed a CIA agent to get back at her husband

Are these not facts? Is there any positive way to spin these facts? Has Faux News melted her brain?

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

How can I possibly be related to this woman?????????????????? Somebody help me!!!!!!!!!



/rant

didn't go to my Mom's house?

*sigh*

Thanks, bpilgrim, for creating this excellent video.

I've watched it over and over again, but I doubt I could get my mother to watch it. In fact, when I was practicing the music the other day, she couldn't leave fast enough. I'll remember that if I ever want her out of my apartment. :)

I suffer from serious major depression. My mother told me that if I keep focusing on shit like this I'll go crazy. (I'm guessing she doesn't worry her beautiful mind over it.) She told me to concentrate on local things and local people, but I told her I couldn't help worrying about the big picture because * is nucking futs. I also told her we have a responsibility for what our government does to other nations and other people. Plus, I DO help people locally when I can...when the opportunity presents itself. I'll do anything for someone in trouble, anything within my power. It's just I don't have a lot of energy to spare. Not even for the anti-crazy-neocon-theofascist effort. A big problem is my mother IS a crazy neocon theofascist. :( :( :( :( :( God, I want to cry. She actually thought I was demon-possessed one time. Another time she tried to have me committed to a mental institution when I wanted a break from her. It's hard to love someone so patently nuts. I have depression, but she believes in a skygod that hates gays and Muslims. Who's the crazy one here?

She's studying Spanish so she can be a missionary. Sweet Jesus, that fundy dogma crap fucked up both my brother and me. Neither of us believe it anymore. My brother went with the soulless Ayn Rand brand of atheism. Sorry, I can't go there. Still, she struck out with both her kids and now she wants to foist that crap on poor Mexicans. I know that's why she's studying Spanish at the church. There couldn't be any other reason. That church is full of nutcases.

God...I need a hug. I'm so tired of this SHIT!

Your mother's insane. That's a heavy burden for any family to bear. :(

So she fits in rather well. I, on the other hand, do not.

On days like this, I sometimes wonder if I'll ever fit in. Then I wonder if my own questioning nature makes it impossible for me to "fit in." I'm just not a follower, even though I was raised to be one. I find myself questioning everything. I don't even "fit in" at the local peace group, though I approve of their efforts to stop the war. Some of them are too into another kind of dogma.

Sorry, I don't "do" dogma. Ladyhawk don't play that.

(from Women Who Run With The Wolves)

See, the Zygote Fairy was flying over your town one night with her basket full of zygotes, dropping them gently through bedroom windows, down chimneys, and so on -- each one (or two) going to the family for whom it was destined.

But YOUR little zygote was so excited it was jumping up and down in the basket with impatience, until >whoops!< it fell out and landed in the wrong womb!

So to this very day, the adult you looks around at your family and wonders, How the hell did I get to be in THIS family? I may look like them, and I know they love me, but criminy....

:grouphug:
Well, it's as good an explanation as any I've ever read. ;-)

Hekate

In which area of the country do you live? I mean, just the general region.
Because if you are living in a fundie area, you are in for a lot of frustration.

There's haven to the west, though. :)

And yes, I've already figured that out...about the frustration. :D

The fundys get worse daily. An extreme mental case who calls himself the Reverend Fred Phelps was on Msnbc last night. I can't understand why the state hospital didn't show up. He's an ambulatory psychotic. There's nothing scarier than Fred Phelps. And he's got followers. And influence.

Anyway, I'm sorry you're having a hard time. It sounds just awful.
Take comfort in the fact that you are not surrounded on all sides with aggressive fundyness.

And here's some advice: Never, ever, put yourself in your mother's power by giving her anything she could magnify or distort in an effort to have you redesigned by mental health professionals. Do not confide. She would much rather believe you ill, than smarter than her preacher. In your mother's eyes, your independent views and rejection of bush are in themselves evidence that you need working on. She might even convince herself that extreme measures are necessary in order to save your soul.

Good luck.

Geesch.

I live in a blue city in a red state - MOST larger cities, even in the red states, are blue.

It's not a state by state issue, it's a rural vs. urban issue.

You don't need this. And your mum will never change. You need not just a break but room to breathe and grow. Go west - San Francisco beckons.

:hug:

My advice? Stop trying to change her. You are only going to frustrate yourself and make the relationship even more difficut than it is. She is who she is, you are who you are.

I will say this, if you are suffering from major depression, she has a point, although perhaps for the wrong reasons. Concentrating on issues that upset you when you are already depressed is going to drive it even deeper. When you feel depressed, you are feeling powerless. In that state, you aren't able to do much of anything about the "state of the world" let alone deal with mom or your life. Take a break.

I just slipped last night. I sometimes can't keep my mouth shut when there are other issues going on in my life. I was about half-sick and had some other pressures. My desire to have a "complete" relationship with my mother--which will never happen--overcame my good sense.

I had made a pact with myself to never bring up religion or politics with my mother, but I "fell off the wagon." That much was my fault, but there were contributing circumstances. I'm climbin' back on the wagon.

And concerning the depression: point taken. DU is too brutal a place for me to be hanging out right now if I'm in so weakened a condition as to break my own promises to myself. There isn't a hell of a lot I can do about anything right now. If civilization were to come to an end, I wouldn't be one of the survivors, anyway. I'm too besieged by physical and emotional maladies. I need to just relax and do what needs to be done to take care of myself.

So, I should probably sign off DU for awhile.

With mothers. Especially the crazymaking kind. There is always the desire to create the relationship that you never had or never can have. We project so much of our self-worth and indentity in the figure of our mother and it really has more to do with ourselves then with them, as individuals. It's very hard to let go. I watched this with my own mother and her mother, it was worse for her because she was the typical abused child, always waiting for the love and approval that never came, and always angry as a defense against further hurt. Even after my grandmother's death, it was hard, because we then can internalize them. It ain't easy.

Take care of yourself, first. :hug:

Or is she one of those fundie nuts who doesn't believe Catholics are Christians?

I mean - most Mexican's ARE Christian, but they're of the Catholic variety.

And I'm so sorry you've had to grow up with such an, excuse me, insane mother. :hug:

So beat her about the head and shoulders with the facts until she arrives at the natural conclusion. :evilgrin:

Hey, man, one of sisters stands somewhere to the right of Rove. The old man must be hitting about 7000 RPM in the grave. Don't try to understand it. Ya gotta love 'em anyway. Dammit.

but if nothing else, I have enjoyed watching the tortured logic developed by my sister as she desperately clings to her right wing axioms.

Ah, the simple pleasures ...

:evilgrin:

So, what is an "unbiased" assessment of my list.

sometimes the combos of genes from the same pool can be very VERY different.

talk to her much about politics, but knowledge of what is going on consumes a lot of my waking thought. I don't have any "complete" relationships, so it makes me feel very misunderstood and very lonely.

I call my mom daily (she being 82) and usually the first thing she asks is something like "What do you hear on the Internet?" or "What are they saying on the Internet about Iran?"

Unless I call her when Bush happens to be on TV and then she's usually sputtering so much I worry about her having a stroke.

believe him.

I have a son who is a real neocon and we never discuss political issues when he's home.

Lots of other things to talk about.

There isn't much to talk about. :(

It used to be that my mother would spout off about politics and if I responded, I was the one who was being "political" -- she was merely stating facts. For a long time, I shut up and then seethed about it. Finally, I decided I wasn't going to put up with it any more and I started giving back an argument, often bolstered by my husband and children. She didn't like that and decided to avoid the subject. Too bad because I'd really love to get into it with her now! But she has developed a "head-in-the-sand" attitude about all national and world news so it probably wouldn't be that much fun anyway.

My brother a PhD in physics showed me one poll that showed bush's approval rating above
50% on election day in 04 so .... he won fair and square. I tried to tell him that living in Ohio
and seeing the theft first hand ..... had some effect on me. But I let it go.

Although sometime you might want to say this country was founded by liberals ....
the Conservatives were the ones loyal to the King. but in a nice way.

Who informs me several times a year that NOTHING on the Internet is factual, including information on print newspaper websites. :banghead:

My mom is one of those limbaugh listeners. She says history will see if he is a good pres.

My dad still believes that Saddam is a Hitler equivalent and the WMD's are somewhere in Syria.

I still cant talk to them about it without getting very frustrated.

M

I get into the car with my brother, the engine starts and he immediately asks me "Do you mind if we listen to Rush?" I quip, "Let's not and say we did?" :P

Can't get rid of family but it's nice to live across the country from my beloved Kool-Aide drinkers. It's easier to get along the once or twice each year that I feel obliged (guilt tripped in) to visiting them for 2-3 days at a shot. ;)

them to get revenge by endangering the life of Joe Wilson's wife. Cowards pick on women. Cowards attack a man's family.

She isn't going to change. It's too deeply ingrained. There's really no sense in my bringing it up and I shouldn't have this time, but the subject is hard to avoid.

reached if you can find the right way to frame the debate. The argument I used in my post works with the blue collar crowd. It may not show in your discussion, but it will plant a seed. You might be showing a side to bush Inc they never considered.


So look for a different angle, a way to appeal to her "soft spot." Be ready when she brings the subject (s) up.

Ask her to name any spin from the the right that has turned out to be true in the past five years.

Yep, she said it. The woman who loved me reading when I was a kid now hates it when it challenges her beliefs.

It all drives me batshit insane crazy. I completely sympathize with the guy pounding away at his keyboard in your post.

I'm very careful when we discuss politics and religion. I give just enough to make her think about it...even though she'd never admit in a million years, listen to what she says and hopefully, with some tact and in a 'it's not a big deal' voice, I make sure she gets my POV.

We've had some huge arguments about this stuff. After Katrina, she almost kicked me out of her house once. I was so pissed at bush, that I went off on a rant.

So yeah, I feel your pain.

these crazy ideas, now would you? :) :) :)

My mom actually reads my web site and forwards stuff on to her friends. We never have a telephone conversation where this stuff does't come up, and she thanks me, but thinks I'm a little nuts for messing with the government. "Please be careful" she's always telling me.

The fact that she has to tell me to be careful about speaking freely is all the evidence anyone should need that our country is really fucked up.

In fact, she's the one that gets paranoid when we talk on the phone if we hear a strange click. We are totally on the same page politically and with what is going on in the country (and world).

I'm very fortunate that I don't have any bushbots, fundies, or even republicans in my family. When we all get together, the conversations are fantastic.

i'm lucky that my entire family (and vast majority of friends) are dems/liberals. so conversations are great. but my dad will torture himself by watching too much MSM, watching * speeches, even listening to hate-talk radio. the whole time, i can practically see his blood pressure rising. the man's diabetic (and a physician to boot), and should know better than to give himself agita by watching and listening to trash. he's trying to be well-informed by listening to all viewpoints, but my mom's concerned that he's going to have a heart attack.

is this a reasonable concern? any suggestions?

And make sure he gets a nice dose of Countdown with Keith Olberman on MSNBC. Maybe he can catch one of the many daily reruns of The Daily Show.

All of these will at least let him know he's not alone...

I just have to know what lies they are spouting so I can get ready to debunk them.

I do not, however, have diabetes or any heart problems.

I believe ignorance is an active choice.

I am so sorry, my dad is like your mom.

It's a cliche, but it's true. In Ecclesiastes, there's a verse that says he who increases knowledge increases sorrow. The more I know about what's going on in the world, the more I sorrow. I also feel more responsible.

My mother has chosen willful ignorance. She doesn't WANT to know. :( When I start discussing facts, she gets this little "I know better than you do" smile on her face. It makes me want to scream. The woman hadn't read a book in years and the first book I saw her with (besides the bible) was a book by Sean Hannity. Christ. :(

Drives me nuts. She has the O'Lielly book.

and here's a hug :hug:

:hug:

1. Bush went to war because evil terrorists attacked us
2. Bush is only wire-tapping evil terrorists to protect us God-fearing US citizens
3. Nuh-uh

:rofl:

* says, "If-in Al Quaeda calls YOU, wees gots to know!?!"

Next time the phone rings answer it and call out, "Hey Mom, I think it's Al Quaeda on line 1!" :P

May not work, but perhaps it just may get her thinking about how inane the rationale is, "Well if you don't have anything to hide, then why are you worried that our blessed Pres-i-dent is keepin' us safe?" :puke:

Last year, one of my husband's cousins called him from Budapest! Now every time I pick up the receiver, I'm a wondering if I should say "Hey!" to agents Mike and Mary. "Now dear government spies, my husband's cousin was calling to check on family devastated by the Katrina Hurricane, not a plottin' to do no harm ... were a just carin' for our family here, don't ca know?" <click> :(

I'm so tired of hearing that BS. :eyes: The next person who says that to me is going to get an earful, plus an offer to search their bag or car. :evilgrin: Because when they say that they never mean it to include them.



I'm a wondering if I should say "Hey!" to agents Mike and Mary. "Now dear government spies, my husband's cousin was calling to check on family devastated by the Katrina Hurricane, not a plottin' to do no harm ... were a just carin' for our family here, don't ca know?"

I say do it! :rofl:

Right Wingers by exercising a good sense of humor. Even if you are the only one to get the joke.

For example, I lead my dear family into my trap - One of my other brothers boasts, "I love to listen to that O'Reilly fellow. Hey Sis, have you heard him? I reply, "Oh yeah! Did you know that he's reportedly 6'6" tall?" My brothers now drawn in, "Yeah, I heard that too!" Time to come in for the "coup da gras" (the kill) --->I come back, "Yeah, isn't it amazing that they can STACK SHIT that high?" :ROFL:

Now I love and respect my brother. Plus with regard to most areas of life, he's no slouch - but this sort of "bad fun" teasing is just too enjoyable to let pass by. It also helps time pass more quickly during family reunions.

Try it, especially if you're still living at home? If you can't change the views of YOUR political pod people, you might as well enjoy them on whatever level works for you. ;)

My roomie is this very odd mixture of liberal and neocon beliefs. She's all for gay rights, legalization of pot, strict gun controls, aid to the disabled/elderly and such. Then she comes out with tirades against illegal immigrants, welfare, Muslims, etc. It boggles my mind. :crazy:

It was mostly this sense of humor that guided me through a miserable home life. Thank God for some strange reason (and extra hours hitting the books), that I was able to graduate H.S. and scamper off to college before my 17th birthday. Yes, "Horowitz's Hell!" - our pinko higher educational system. Love it!

It's no wonder your roomie is somewhat conflicted ... on the other (true) side of the humor - there's a true and profound level of emotional pain that often "turns sideways" (incongruent belief systems) when a person is outside their family's blessed values system. :puke: Black sheep unite! :hi:

carry a package of kool-aid in your pocket - when she tells you the same thing or similar - hand her the kool-aid and say

"if you are going to swallow the bush*t, you need something to drink with it"

1) That Bush lied
2) That the spying was illegal
3) That Bush was a) directly involved in exposing Plame and b0 that such an action was illegal.

You're mother's right and you're wrong. Thos are not facts, but judgments, and biased judgments at that.

And what is your interpretation of those facts?

If you want to play semantics, my mother's "facts" are also judgments. I like Buffy's list above:

1. Bush went to war because evil terrorists attacked us
2. Bush is only wire-tapping evil terrorists to protect us God-fearing US citizens
3. Nuh-uh

Whether she's honest about that is a different matter.

These are not facts, they are conclusions.

Saying my mother is right in this context is a conclusion, also, and a rather insulting one since she believes Bush was chosen by god to lead this country and that the "facts" prove he is going to protect us from terrorists.

Her conclusions are a lot less realistic than mine.

Also, I am not able to assess "tone" through a written post, but yours doesn't seem terribly diplomatic. I agree that my conclusions are not facts, but would it have hurt you to be a little less condescending while pointing this out? Just askin'.

As your own post concedes.

I would apologize for my supposed tone, but I'm not sorry, so I won't.

God, I love that feature. :) At least we're clear now that you were, indeed, being insulting. Buh-bye!

:toast:

that no credible argument has been offered refuting the FACT that Bush has violated FISA? :shrug:

Feingold is putting forth a definition argument, to be sure, and I even agree with him, but since the matter has not been settled, it is hardly a "fact" that the policy was illegal.

just facts. So, for example, just because Republicans control the Media, Congress and the Judiciary doesn't mean that Iraq is going well or that Global Warming won't destroy our society.

Facts are stubborn things that are resistant to the best sophistry.

Too bad, that.

It is a proven fact that Bush's spying violated the law. He did not follow the legal procedure and he admited that he didnt in a speech.

If I see someone on the highway who wizzes by me when i am going the speed limit, I dont have to wait until a court concludes he was speeding to call it speeding.

and a FACT that the wiretapping was illegal.

The plame situation is trickier, because the white house has done so much lying about it, that its hard to know exactly what happened and if crimes were committed.

Regardless, the lying and wiretapping are indeed facts.

My dad is pretty conservative. He's a hardline catholic (although not a fundamentalist one, he retains some judgement at least) and tends to look favorably at anyone that has a full religious life, so long as they are Christian or Jews and whatever political horrors they might be responsible for.

For example, he still admires Maurice Duplessis (none of you will know him, but you can check him out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Duplessis you'll know where I'm comgin from then.

So yeah, I know how you feel.

... is to give it up. My parents are just as moronic when it comes to what is going on in this country. They watch Fox, O-really and they actually believe it.

I've had many heated discussions with them, it does no good. (Actually, my mom is starting to show signs of agreement) But I have decided that these are my parents, and they are getting on in years and I don't want to fight with them.

It is impossible for me to discuss this stuff without getting agitated, they know that and they forgive me somewhat, I'm their first born. But these shoutfests take a toll on our relationship and I have decided not to engage in them any further.

I've at least planted the seeds. If they live long enough, they will find themselves agreeing with most of what I've said about it - that's good enough :)

See my post above.

When I'm not feeling well, if I'm very tired, if I'm depressed, then I have a harder time sticking with my resolve not to bring up these issues.

I fell off the wagon. I'll try to continue my policy of pretending to be cheerful and never letting any of my family know how I really feel. It's lonely as hell, but at least I don't feel like I have since that encounter. It so zapped me, a cold virus I had a week ago is coming back on me.

... I do understand that. And sometimes people just seem to want to provoke a fight about it. :(

In the area of good news, my brother (who works with almost 100% bush bots) used to be a Bush fan but he's come around. Now, he has to be careful how far he takes it at work, his bosses are all dumb-butt "christain" Republicans. He lets them know he doesn't agree but doesn't let it get too heated - it's never a good idea in the workplace. :)

:shrug:

It's too frustrating reading right wing sites, Mom. They can't spell!

She hated Nixon with a passion, loathed Reagan and Bush I and loved FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Carter and Clinton. She was luke-warm to LBJ and Eisenhower. She died before the 2000 election, but knew that Bush II was running for the nomination. When she was in the hospital for the last time, about 3 days before she died, she told me that she hoped that son of a bush would not be nominated and, if nominated, not get elected because he was just like his old man and would get us into a war. There were times my mom was more politically active than I was and would get frustrated with me. Gods I miss her. Somethings you can change, others you can't. It sounds like you can't change your mom or her worldview, but hopefully you can change the depression. I do hope so. Hang in there.

2 sisters - my entire family like your mother. My youngest sister goes 2 drudge first thing every morning; the last book she read was that olsen slanderous diatribe against the Clintons; my mother referred me 2 newsmax 'n o'lielly's site once in defense of a RW e-massmail she forwarded 2 me. I just don't talk politics anymore. My mother & brother can be sent N2 apoplectic spasms if you say 'Hillary'. Welcome to the club.

I tried to send something to my brother once a long time ago and he countered with sending me a Newsmax article that had absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue I had raised. It was a typical right-wing response: Change the subject with a non-sequitur from a rather dubious source.

Today I'm feeling rather bereft. I can't have a real relationship with my family and quite frankly, I am having a hard time dealing with it just now.