Building a fence is a bad idea conceived by morans

After Canada, Mexico is our largest trading partner. We share a border of almost 2,000 miles with Mexico, and trade that totals $286 billion a year. The movement of goods and services is accompanied by the movement of people. In 2004 some 175,000 legal immigrants arrived from Mexico, along with 3.8 million visitors for pleasure, 433,000 business visitors, 118,000 temporary workers, 25,000 intra-company transferees, 29,000 students and exchange visitors, and 6,200 traders and investors. At the same time, 1 million Americans live in Mexico and 19 million travel there each year as visitors. U.S. foreign direct investment in Mexico totals $62 billion annually.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901101.html

Chertoff did seem to send a message to the fence fanatics by noting that the administration would stop short of building "a giant wall across our borders." But not even groups such as "We Need a Fence" want a wall. They just want a fence. With government spending completely out of control, Congress and the White House might just be crazy enough to spend $8 billion on a border fence that stretches from sea to shining sea.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/07/EDGQIF5H461.DTL

But some critics say such a barrier is inhumane and ill-conceived, a logistical nightmare that could jeopardize local border economies, threaten the environment and ultimately cost U.S. taxpayers billions upon billions of dollars.

The fence proposal, which passed overwhelmingly in the House of Representatives on Dec. 16, calls for a double-layered barrier along some of the most vulnerable stretches of the 1,951-mile border, including a 227-mile section of the Rio Grande in Texas.

The Mexican government has come out swinging against the fence and other proposed congressional anti-immigration measures, calling them xenophobic and disgraceful.

snip:
"I think it would be like the Berlin Wall," said the longtime resident of Carricitos, a small community on the Rio Grande. "Didn't they tear that down? A lot of people here don't want it."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/12/30/MNGKIGEN6E1.DTL

Do we really want to militarize the US border which lies with a country we're friendly with? The cost would run into the billions and a five minute search showed who supports this...RW racist nutjobs who get a friendly nod from this administration. bush and his cabal won't do anything unless they're forced to...which will be nothing.

Oh, and this fence-building scheme has been around for years. It's failed to get much traction for a very good reason.

But it appeals to the racists and fear mongers and it'll bring them and their sheep to the polls in an election year.

It'd be slap stick comedy at it's finest watching the minute men build a fence while they are stone cold drunk. I know its all good fun until one of the minute men loose one of thier eyes.

And the Maginot Line was a roaring success for the French!

And then there's Berlin!

/sarcasm

Of course, it's moronic.

And the one I tried one year - just once - to build against the moose getting into my garden.

Moose: 1
Garden: 0

Knock yourselves out! Build that wall between Canada and the U.S. Then we can negate NAFTA and start having free trade with the rest of the world. Just don't look north anymore for water, oil or minerals. Just sayin'

by the way Alaska once talked about a chain link fence on both sides of the road from Fairbanks to Anchorage, to keep moose off the road. That is a little over 400 miles. Then they also wanting to build a bridge to another place with no people at that time. That was with their own money so guess they are getting smarter. If we could make this fence on the border as good as the Chine Wall it may be worth the cost as our children's children's etc. could get people to come and see it and it would be great in about 800 years. Even England has a nice wall for people to see. Every country needs a wall.

Including a friend of mine who states she is a Democrat. She wants a wall around the entire US, and no immigration whatsoever, legal or otherwise. That and several other things she supports make me wonder who has been slipping her the Kool-aid.

This is not a bad idea, you guys (and gals) here don't get the whole picture...as bizarre as this sounds but there are land owners on the border that have put up their own fences and then have been sued by Illegal aliens who got hurt crossing the border?

There is a real problem here and "the fence talk" is a good starting point in this problem.

Also, as I understand it, if you do put up a fence on YOUR OWN LAND, you can be arrested in some places...Why don't we just hand over America to Mexico...wouldn't cost much...in fact...maybe our taxes would go down...and I mean the taxes for us poor people...OH WAIT!!! We are already doing it with giving them our jobs...

There is a "Mexican Talk Radio Personality", don't know his name, but he's out of LA and he's proud of the fact that in 10 years, Mexicans will be the largest minority in American and in 50 years THEY WILL BE THE MAJORITY!

I know our Country is screwed up with *ush and Co. right now...but do we want the same corruption here that is routine in MEXICO?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I was really *issed at hearing that Spanish is being considered as the official language in some places...

My grandparents came from Ireland and Lithuania and met on the boat coming here in 1912 and they had to learn English to work and get along...why should it be any different for anyone else?

The illegal's are ruining it for the ones that come here legally and try their best...

I'm all for a wall or a fence or better yet...mines...mine the border...shouldn't cost that much...IF WE DO NOTHING...America will no longer be...We are quickly going down the road to the status of a Third World Nation...and I don't want to see that happen...

As for the economics, that's just BS spun by people that don't want to pay a decent wage and/or benefits to us hard working Americans...

That's not an attack, that's the truth.

I have a strong physical reaction to bigotry and that post is one of the most revolting examples of it I have ever seen on DU.









I have to hand it to the slobs at freeperville, at least most of them are honest about what they are.

And by honest, I mean the ones who don't join liberal forums and try to pass themselves off as human.

This Personal...

I don't believe that I'm anything close to being a Bigot! Attack the messenger and ignore the message...typical spin.

First and formost...FYI...I've faced more bigotry and discrimination than you can ever...I REPEAT EVER COULD IMAGINE...and this subject is not about me...

It's about our Country and the reality that we are loosing our collective rights to bargain for better wages and better working conditions...and the answer from Big Business is simply put..."I don't need you..,"

Why would any employer hire me when I ask for $12.00 an hour when they can pay someone else 1/2 that with no benefits or anything?

This is the reality I see here in Western New York...i.e. the Buffalo Area...

We must do something and the part about the mines was a joke...but we have to seriously consider closing down the borders somehow...or controlling them...What should we do? Hire 1 million Customs Agents...where would the money come from?

Wake UP! And I really do mean this...I've been a member of this group for a couple of years and haven't had time to do more than read the postings and articles here...I WORK TOO MUCH...CORRECTION I DID WORK TO MUCH UNTIL THIS PAST TUESDAY...

I was "laid-off" from a Restaurant and guess why...GO AHEAD AND GUESS WHY?!!

Because I asked for a raise, but the company had LITERALLY hired some people from Venezuela and claimed that they couldn't afford me. your personal attacks are pathetic...and disappointing...

About the other post about the Mexicans being the largest minority...I missed that...but again...I have been working for 20 + years and I have yet to have a company pay me for 1 week off...it used to be called vacation pay!

Apparently, you feel your status as a "laid-off" restaurant worker entitles you to blame illegal immigrants.

You have my pity.

The facts are very clear for me and I don't blame the Venezuelan workers that took my job but the current Administration that is ignoring the laws that are currently on the books...the lack of enforcement has brought this upon us.

The Republicans want cheap or better yet, a free labor force they can exploit..

Again...I'm not a bigot...but if you repeat it enough then I must be...right?

Bigot as defined by Random House is: n. a person who is intolerant of any creed, belief, or race that is not his or her own.

As I said, what my grandparents went through almost 100 years ago, it shouldn't be any different today...

Let's reverse this...say I illegally go to Canada, say Montreal and they only speak French there...I would have to learn French to work and live and survive...but if I was found out I would be sent back...period...BUT no...not here in America...lets just change it to make it easy on the illegals...

I'm not intolerant of anyone except idiots...my definition of an idiot is: a person who knows better but continues to do or say something they know not to be true...

What's so wrong with making immigrants work hard and prove that they want to be apart of this Country...not come here in mass numbers then change our laws, laws that we had to live with, just to make it easier for them...life isn't easy...and no one said it would be..

As for the illegals, kick them out...send them home...or better yet don't let them get in...hence my remarks supporting a fence on the border...

The harder it is here the less and less people will want to go through it...

Peddle it to someone else, I'm not buying what you're selling.

Didn't you say in one of your posts you were listening to me and had pity on me???

I'm confoosed:wow:

Your logical fallicy will be ignored here...you seem to be equating my explanation for an excuse...:hi:

I am capable of feeling both pity and revulsion.

And since you're "confoosed", let me refresh your memory as to WHY I am revolted:

:spank:

you shouldn't be so obvious.

:eyes:

you did not. It was in the body of your offensive rant.

Better yet I bet you couldn't walk a mile in my shoes...Controlling immigration is not ranting...and discussing "options" shouldn't be judged as an offensive rant...

I guess next time I will make use of the emoticons so all can understand my sarcasim...

:banghead:

This is not a bad idea, you guys (and gals) here don't get the whole picture...as bizarre as this sounds but there are land owners on the border that have put up their own fences and then have been sued by Illegal aliens who got hurt crossing the border?

Do you have proof that illegal immigrants sued for being hurt crossing the border?

There is a real problem here and "the fence talk" is a good starting point in this problem.

The fence is a lousy, rotten, racist and xenophobic idea that will cost this country billions...and look how great this regime has managed the finances of the USA. :sarcasm:

Also, as I understand it, if you do put up a fence on YOUR OWN LAND, you can be arrested in some places...Why don't we just hand over America to Mexico...wouldn't cost much...in fact...maybe our taxes would go down...and I mean the taxes for us poor people...OH WAIT!!! We are already doing it with giving them our jobs...

Again, you miss the point here. Corporates and businesses do the hiring. They know they can save a buck and will exploit these people who are so thirsty for a better life. What proof do you have in regards to being arrested for putting up a fence. I want to read more on this.

There is a "Mexican Talk Radio Personality", don't know his name, but he's out of LA and he's proud of the fact that in 10 years, Mexicans will be the largest minority in American and in 50 years THEY WILL BE THE MAJORITY!

And you have a problem with this? Why? Does it threaten you somehow?

I know our Country is screwed up with *ush and Co. right now...but do we want the same corruption here that is routine in MEXICO?

Wake up. Corruption is rampant here in the US. :eyes:

I don't know about anyone else here, but I was really *issed at hearing that Spanish is being considered as the official language in some places...

Why? You think you'll be forced to speak Spanish? Do you think someone will do to you what whites in this country did to the Indians? Not allow you to speak your native tongue? English is not the natural language of this country, BTW.

My grandparents came from Ireland and Lithuania and met on the boat coming here in 1912 and they had to learn English to work and get along...why should it be any different for anyone else?

This is a myth. People south of the border who come here, whether legally or illegally, do learn the language. Also, keep in mind, that there are American soldiers who are living in foreign countries and do not make any effort whatsoever to learn the language.

My father and his mother immigrated to the US after WWII. It took them over two years to learn the language. It took so long because they first lived in a community mostly German and also because they were here illegally.

The illegal's are ruining it for the ones that come here legally and try their best...

How? Be specific.

I'm all for a wall or a fence or better yet...mines...mine the border...shouldn't cost that much...IF WE DO NOTHING...America will no longer be...We are quickly going down the road to the status of a Third World Nation...and I don't want to see that happen...

Yes, the land mines :eyes: It'll be all the immigrants' fault if America is no longer :eyes: We'll be a third world nation :eyes: All the immigrants' fault. Yep, give bush and his cabal for ruining this country a pass :sarcasm: Geez, wake up, will ya'!

As for the economics, that's just BS spun by people that don't want to pay a decent wage and/or benefits to us hard working Americans...

The economics are not bullshit. If it is, prove it. Don't ignore it because it doesn't agree with your opinions. That's what freeps, RWer's, fundies and nutjobs do when they get facts they don't like.

Point #1...yes...I have the spoken word of my sister, who is a customs agent in S. California...one of her co-workers...who owns land that's on the border near Yuma...was sued by illegals...for getting hurt crossing into our country through his property...then he had to pay them for getting hurt on his property...for doing something illegal...THIS IS A FACT...a very bizarre fact...but that's our wonderful country again..

Point #2 the fence was an idea and get over the fact, I have...calling it racist is insane...xenophobic, maybe... as for this regimes destruction of our finances...I will not argue...I completely agree...

Point #3...It's illegal for landowners to put fences up on their own lands...to stop illegal aliens from crossing over...I will contact my sister and have her send me a link on the laws of Arizona...I don't have the proof, but I have no reason not to believe my sister, she has no political motives...she's a very liberal democrat...but I will get a link for you...

Point #4...your myth as you call it about the immigrants south of the border learning the language...that's crap...my sister was paid to learn spanish and has to...period...as part of her job requirements...they don't have to speak english...and many of them refuse to...ask my sister...it's crazy...

And BTW we won the war...ever hear of the American-Indian war(s)? I do agree that what happened to the native americans was exploitation, pure and simple..and my point is this...they are trying to make the official language spanish...and as you said...we don't have an official language here...what are you missing on this point...ever hear the phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"...? I see this an overt attempt to Annex America into Mexico...How is this incorrect? If there becomes an official language other than english...then people who have lived and spoken english...WILL HAVE TO LEARN SPANISH...AND SPEAK IT...WAKE UP ON THIS POINT...

Keep on point...the fact that american soldiers don't learn the language when in foreign countries has nothing to do with them moving there illegally and trying to "make a life"...that may be true...but pointless here...

Point #5...the illegals ruining it for others...when my grandparents wanted to come here they had to wait...there were quota's for each country...my grandmother waited 4 years and my grandfather waited almost 5 years to come here...the massive influx of mexican illegals throws out the quota system and when people like me loose our jobs...the next human reaction is this backlash that is now coming to a head...the fence talk and all...

Economically speaking the quota system worked...it gave people time to adjust and become members of this society...our jobs were threatened then too, but not on this scale....re-read history please...

And unfortunately, the illegals will become the "scape goat" in this...

As my sister tells me...that about 25% of all the illegals coming here do so not for a better life...the come here for our free health care and some on one stretch of road just cross the border to use the better roads...they aren't paying taxes to repair or replace the roads...

Point #6...the corruption issue...it's alot worse in Mexico...justice is handed out at the point of a barrel...at least we have some safeguards...correction...we used to until GW...

Point #7...the road to third world status...here are some facts...due to the costs of paying for illegals in California for health services...costs over $5 billion a year...that enormous amount is subsidized by tax payers...the costs of educating the illegals...is almost as high...and then because local municipalities don't have enough resources...the level of education that the children are getting is worse...I learned more in 8th grade than my nieces and nephews learned in 10th grade today...lets not talk about my children's current standards of education...if your children under perform they are "suggested" to go into "magnet" schools here to learn a trade...so much for education....Remeber the arguments a few years ago about music class and art classes being eliminated...soon...because of this enormous influx...school will only teach children how to be good little workers...so much for improving themselves....

I don't have the stats on our ranking in the world for education but it's not even in the top 10...and that goes the same for health care...

Our country really doesn't have enough economic resources, businesses and jobs to support all of the 11 million illegals...but again...I'm being racist right?

The reality that a business owner can get 2 for the price of one does no one any good...me...you...illegal...or legal...it lowers the standard of living here and again...we will become a third world nation...the less a person makes the less they pay in taxes...then the less services we can afford for the betterment of all...a vicious cycle...

Final point...the La Talk Radio guy...his arrogance is what insults me most...it is an invasion...and I still see it that way...and they know it...soon, we will be Mexico Part II...maybe this sounds like bigotry...but it's not...

What if you or I went to say...Spain and just for arguments sake...there were say...8 million of us there illegally...and we advocated making the official language...say english...then we went on the radio and told the Spainards...they wouldn't be in control of their own country...WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD DO TO ME OR US...? I BET WE WOULD BE PUT IN JAIL AND DEPORTED...or even worse shot...


I haven't advocated anything like that...but slowing down the influx has to be dealt with...BUT I'M WRONG...I KNOW...ON EVERYTHING...

Point #1...yes...I have the spoken word of my sister, who is a customs agent in S. California...one of her co-workers...who owns land that's on the border near Yuma...was sued by illegals...for getting hurt crossing into our country through his property...then he had to pay them for getting hurt on his property...for doing something illegal...THIS IS A FACT...a very bizarre fact...but that's our wonderful country again..

No offense to your sister, but usually information like that is public there for available on the internet. I will continue to wait for proof.

Point #3...It's illegal for landowners to put fences up on their own lands...to stop illegal aliens from crossing over...I will contact my sister and have her send me a link on the laws of Arizona...I don't have the proof, but I have no reason not to believe my sister, she has no political motives...she's a very liberal democrat...but I will get a link for you...

I would think with your computer skills you could use google to dig up the link. I see no reason for you not to take the task upon yourself.

Point #4...your myth as you call it about the immigrants south of the border learning the language...that's crap...my sister was paid to learn spanish and has to...period...as part of her job requirements...they don't have to speak english...and many of them refuse to...ask my sister...it's crazy...

Some jobs require Spanish. That's the way it is. It is a myth that people who live here don't learn the language. I worked in a potato warehouse where legal and illegal immigrants alike worked. The legals and illegals both had many challenges in the language, but English was not required in order to work. They still had to learn the language. Period.

And BTW we won the war...ever hear of the American-Indian war(s)? I do agree that what happened to the native americans was exploitation, pure and simple..and my point is this...they are trying to make the official language spanish

Who is trying to make Spanish the official language? I don't buy it.

...and as you said...we don't have an official language here...what are you missing on this point...ever hear the phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"...? I see this an overt attempt to Annex America into Mexico...How is this incorrect? If there becomes an official language other than english...then people who have lived and spoken english...WILL HAVE TO LEARN SPANISH...AND SPEAK IT...WAKE UP ON THIS POINT...

'When in Rome' is a goddamn phrase. :eyes: Please. And I don't think Mexico is all that interested in annexing the US. Besides, we did steal a shitload of their land. Check that history. There is nothing wrong with learning a second language, but you're absolutely in fantasy land thinking it's going to be some kind of requirement.

Keep on point...the fact that american soldiers don't learn the language when in foreign countries has nothing to do with them moving there illegally and trying to "make a life"...that may be true...but pointless here...

It is on point. I lived overseas for two years. Many people lived there much longer, but still made no effort to learn the language. By your standards, if they are going to live there, they should learn the language.

the massive influx of mexican illegals throws out the quota system and when people like me loose our jobs.

Blame the illegals again for what corporate's do. :eyes:

As my sister tells me...that about 25% of all the illegals coming here do so not for a better life...the come here for our free health care and some on one stretch of road just cross the border to use the better roads...they aren't paying taxes to repair or replace the roads...

And here we come to the biggest myths. They pay taxes. Taxes come out of their wages, if they're getting paid over the table. They also pay sales tax, gas tax, liquor and so on. All of that goes to roads, schools and so on. And the myth about medical care...there are about 45 million uninsured in this country and they can still get medical care even if they can't pay for it. Same with illegal immigrants. They can get medical care as well.

Point #7...the road to third world status...here are some facts...due to the costs of paying for illegals in California for health services...costs over $5 billion a year...that enormous amount is subsidized by tax payers...the costs of educating the illegals...is almost as high...and then because local municipalities don't have enough resources...the level of education that the children are getting is worse...I learned more in 8th grade than my nieces and nephews learned in 10th grade today...lets not talk about my children's current standards of education...if your children under perform they are "suggested" to go into "magnet" schools here to learn a trade...so much for education....Remeber the arguments a few years ago about music class and art classes being eliminated...soon...because of this enormous influx...school will only teach children how to be good little workers...so much for improving themselves....

Wow, blame illegal immigrants for the state of the education system. It doesn't matter that 'No Child Behind' has done further damage. It doesn't matter that our nation's schools are grossly underfunded. It doesn't matter the government has done next to nothing to improve the education system.

This is getting as bad as blaming Clinton for...well, just about everything that's gone wrong under chimp's watch. :eyes:

And yes, you're wrong on this entire discussion. It's patently obscene and racist. I think it's clear the way you're making illegal immigrants the scapegoats for everything that's gone wrong in this country rather than looking to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

say that but you keep twisting the facts just like a good little republican...

Educational standards were going down before the chimp...he just made a bad situation worse...

health the same thing...it's just getting worse..

I will get the links for you...give me a few..minutes...


But I love being wrong by someone who doesn't know anything...real...wake up here...

They cease being discussions then. Thanks for playing and for showing your true colors.

buh-bye.

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you might want to start with this poster:

Our country has a mighty shameful record in its treatment of past immigrants...why would anyone wish to brag on or continue such historical discrimination? Surely the collective thinking of our population has progressed since those days of stripping people of their culture and very inheritance.

I wasn't bragging...but accepting a simple fact...that's how it was...and today...the mexicans (most of which are illegal) are protesting in our streets claiming that they have some kind of rights...did your grandparents have any...or mine...no...they worked hard and did their best to raise themselves up...to give their grandchildren what they could only dream of...

Continuing on a practice of "stripping people of their culture and very inheritance"...Wait a minute here... What about our American Heritage? When or how do we become one country working together for the betterment of all? Again, here I see, divide and conquer...and having an official language be anything other than english will be the greatest divider here...

They can return to the countries they left to visit their heritage...as my aunts have done recently...gone back to Ireland...just to visit though...

But my father and mother passed down to me the recipes and some customs...we became Americans...together...

As for our society and our collective thinking...it is going backwards under GW...look at the intolerance of gays and such...it's getting brutal here...Don't get me started on the working conditions and protections that GW has wiped away with a stroke of his pen...70 years of hard-faught workers rights are all but gone...that third world status is closer than you believe...all for cheap labor...

To do that in the streets...in a country founded on immigrants!

:sarcasm:

Deported in the morning...if they did..."Hello" is anyone there?:argh:

it being post WWII and all. The government had interred thousands of Japanese Americans and the full realization of the holocaust was still being felt.

Besides, America was the land of opportunity and still taking immigrants, legal and illegal, as they should.

And for human rights, no less !!!1

Well, it's always something, isn't it?

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but Hispanics have been the largest minority in this country since the results from the 2000 Census came in. And they ain't goin' anywhere. They also have the right to speak whatever language they damn well please, just like the rest of us, since there is no official language in the USA.

Maybe it's time you learned a little Spanish.

And the only way "America" is going to be destroyed is if we allow those who advocate killing people for no good reason to remain in control. Fascism in this country is the real threat, to us and what it will do to the rest of the world.

:thumbsup:

When I was in High School I also learned Latin, French and German...Sir!

It's not about the language and I don't care what they speak in their own homes or to each other...I know that America is the "GREAT MELTING POT"...but lets get real here...

We're being invaded and you all can't see it...wait until one of you "guys" looses their job to someone getting payed 1/2 what you did...then you might understand my position...

Changing the official language to Spanish is really foolish...and dangerous...for the stability of our own society...then we will truly have only two classes of people...the poor(the Mexicans) and the rich(English speakers)...

you must have flunked English, though, apparently.




We're not being invaded.

Get help.

As for help goes...there's not enough for people like you that keep attacking the messenger and ignoring the message.

And for my spelling...As I've told my sister for years...If you understood what I was saying than that's all that matters...Good God...you people this morning are brutal...

I didn't know that being a member here meant that I had to spell Korrectly...or that it was a requirement...

You missed the points I made by attacking my spelling...you really do need some help...

They're one of the reasons why I said you have my pity.

be fixed is when the republican party get off their fat asses and raise the minimum wage and start fining employers who hire illegals. No matter how high and long their fence is, it don't matter when the gate is wide open allowing their GUEST WORKERS easy passage to keep our wages low.

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=994074&mesg_id=994403

Specifically the part where you said "I'm with you here on the subject".

working people wages low.. I don't blame people coming here to find work, but I do blame the republican party who open the border for their guest workers, and I blame them for not raising the minimum wage for how long, 15 years?

what you were signing up for.

who hire illegals?

I'll wait.

border!!!

I'm funny that way, I try not to help people who suggest blowing up others as a solution.

Reminds me too much of why one of my brothers is in Iraq.

:yoiks:

Hilarious.

The part about handing over America was scacaism...But we could return Texas...and then GW would be a foreigner...and then couldn't be president anymore...this I think has potential...really...

The part about the largest minority, I was corrected on...

The part about them becoming the majority is just what I said in other posts we are being invaded...and the LA Talk Radio Personality was reveling in this fact...


And the part about Spanish being chosen as the official language is an insult...as it was pointed out to me there is no official language in America...so why do we need a language that is endorsed by the gov't? And for a minority group here? I Advocate that English, then become the official language...that would solve the problem...right?!


And the final part about doing nothing...well it's people like you that shout out how bad I am for advocating a fence, but give no alternatives...

I'm listening!

And waiting?

The part about us becoming a third world nation is very real...the fact that,in California alone, where or not you are an illegal, you can come here and go to any hospital and have a baby and that baby is automattically an American Citizen and then when you leave the hospital then you can demand other services from our generous hard working tax paying citizens that your child be given everything from an education to welfare...

this is the bizare part of it all...we have to do something...


But I'll wait to hear from you.

opined about what a wonderful idea it was to build a fence.

I'm not going to waste my time discussing immigration when you can't even be bothered to click on a few links and educate yourself.

Give me a break...and what links are you refering to about Immigration...I didn't see them?

Wow, you think we should mine the borders too?

That sounds like support, on the face of it. If I were just glancing at the Subject lines of this post...that's what it would appear to mean...but I do know you don't agree with my joke...

Do you at least admit that we have a problem with our borders?

And the major influx of illegals?

And the reality that our wages and standard(s) of living are going down because of it?

If you answer yes to at least one of these points then we all can agree that something should be done...

And "B Calm" is soooo correct about all that he or she said...in the posts...

We really have to do something...talking about a fence is the "door opener"...for Public discourse on this subject...we shouldn't shut the door before we work out some common ground towards a solution...a real workable one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=994074&mesg_id=994114

Yeah, the fence is a real "door opener".

For bigots.

:nuke:

This subject has gotten little if any real Public discourse until the "minutemen" got shown on tv for all to see...

WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING...UNLESS YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT LANDOWNERS DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT THEIR OWN PROPERTY...

BTW...my sister is a Customs agent in S. California and the true to life stories that she has been a witness to would curl your hair...I didn't want to mention her occupation because "Big brother" IS watching.

One of her co-workers was sued for putting up a fence on their own land and two illegals got caught in it and were cut up pretty badly...and her co-worker was sued by them?

There really is something wrong with this picture...not just the fact that I lost my job...

We are truly not free...and we can't protect our own property anymore...???

Or our jobs....

Your anecdotes are tired and uninspiring.

Not to mention most often used by freepers.


Fear !

Terror !

Mexicans !

Protect the Homeland !

Bwaawk Bwaawck !

it just happens to be that Spanish is the language spoken by many of this country's largest minority. And most of them are bilingual, I might add. It's not that surprising since I believe Spanish is the language spoken by the majority of people in the Western Hemisphere; I could be wrong.

I have had my job threatened by people who didn't know any better and accepted pay rates that could have lowered my own wages. To protect my best interests, I took it upon myself to get to know these people and politely inform them that they were selling themselves short.

No workers have ever gained anything when they fight amongst themselves, rather than demanding what they need from their bosses. Recognizing the affinity we have with one another, as folks just trying to earn a living, and uniting in our struggles against management, has long been the only way working people have ever made any advancements in their jobs.

You are identifying the wrong people as your foe.

I really am identifying the illegals not the ones who migrated here legally...there is a difference...when my employer "turns a blind eye" to the facts that the two people he hired "may not have all the required paperwork" to work here...but hired them anyways...

And your point is a good one about discussing the "selling themselves short" but as illegals...what real choice do they have...accept what is given to them or starve...or say something and then...mysteriously...INS shows up at their home the next day...maybe...

BTW...I did try to speak to them in Spanish...but I guess I sounded like a child talking...anyways...I don't blame them...The facts as "Calm" stated were correct...raise the minimum wage...

The real reason I learned so many languages was to understand others, from their perspective...and to speak to them in their language...as respect...with the only exception being Latin...I do believe we as workers, all workers on this planet, have more in common than not...

not the people who do the exact same job you have done. There is still an NLRB in this country, even tho it really has been invaded by the right-wing, and rendered practically ineffective by anti-union and anti-worker decisions, but they have and do handle cases involving undocumented workers, with victories that did not result in deportation for the worker filing a case for arbitration. If you think your company is engaging in substandard pay rates for these people and fired you for no good reason, get ahold of the NLRB and win your job back, (with back-pay) and get those folks a raise.

The sparks of racism are being fanned and flamed hysterically by the right-wing machine, as they face a shaking economy, so common people are falling for their ploy. From the other side of that shaking economy, working people, many having lived for years on the brink, have reached a point of desperation.

We can either stand together (and you know there is strength in numbers) and fight like hell for better wages in our individual workplaces and demand the respect we are all due, (the Republicans have stonewalled every attempt the Democrats have made at raising the minimum wage; they are in control) or we can whine and moan about some other working person, and allow the government apparatus to divide us and weaken us and distract us from our goal...and we will lose.

I stand with anyone who works beside me...that is my common ground, no matter what papers they may carry in their pockets or however foreign their language might sound. Workers, united, will never be defeated!

They are in my country and I shouldn't have to speak their language. Having lived in Miami most of my life, I knew some Spanish, but I refused to speak it to the Cubans. They should speak my native language.

Oh, silly me!

I thought you were talking about the REAL natives.

Just an idea, one where you could teach English as a Second language, you know, actually help immigrants integrate instead of bitching about it. There is a HUGE demand for such teachers, worldwide, and a huge shortage, especially in the states. That way, at least you don't have to be an asshole about it. Besides which, given the development of English in the United States, and the increasingly pidgin development of it, why bother even complaining about whether its the de facto language for everybody here?

Those areas that are considering Spanish as the official language have been areas where Spanish speaking people were there FIRST, before us White Born Anglophones came in. The Southwest is brimming with Spanish Speaking people that have been there since before the USA broke from Britian, so what's the complaint?

I thought it would be a good idea to save it:

http://www.archive.org/details/salt_of_the_earth

This is a movie about the struggle of all Americans, made by a bunch of Blacklisted McCarthy era Hollywood producers and one of the best films of the last Century, and look at who the protagonists were, a bunch of those cursed Hispanics, the HORRORS! :sarcasm:

BTW: the Movie is public domain, you can download at the link above for FREE, even burn it to DVD if you want.

It's that a given in Love and War...to the victor goes the spoils...Uhmm...Oh Wait...maybe we should give Texas back then...right?

Wait a minute...now you've got me thinking...we could give back Texas and then GW would be a foreinger and couldn't be the President anymore...YES...I think we've got something here...LET's GO WITH IT...WHO'S BEHIND ME ON THIS!!!

We must sacrifice TEXAS and return it to Mexico, just so we can get rid of GW...

Thanks for putting me onto this thought:yourock:

I'm not exactly a fan of that war, it was contrived, to put it bluntly, also, that was the Mexican-American War, the Spanish American war was about 60 years later, in the late 1890s or so, and it was started because of a lie.

Hell, our Greatest President voted AGAINST the Mexican American war while he was in Congress, killed his political career for a decade, guess who that was?

Wars are about land, but most of the time you have to deal with the people later. In the case of the Southwest United States, there are innummerable border towns that "straddled" the border for over a century and a half, having the same name, think Kansas City, two states, basically one city. Not to mention the people of the larger cities that have always had a high Latino and Chicano population, which only got larger as time wore on.

BTW: Speaking of the Spanish-American war, we did get some possessions of Spain from that time, two notable ones, Puerto Rico and Cuba, we installed a puppet in Cuba, who was later overthrown, we all know that story, but never bothered giving the People of Puerto Rico that much independence, a hundred years later, and they are still considered "immigrants" even though they are born US residents at least, though I don't know if a PR citizen can run for president, they are technically "natural born" and are free to move about anywhere in the other 50 states. Talk about a "gray" area!

The Mexican-American War involved the US fighting Mexico over what today is the SW USA.

If you're going to refer to history, please be accurate about it.

:rofl:

I thought the day shift would NEVER get here...

must have really struggled to learn the language. :eyes:

Quite a few Irish that came over during the potato famine didn't know much if any English, having been born and raised in Gaelic, though, nowadays, that language is almost wiped out, but not entirely. This isn't to say that was NORMAL for Irish Immigrants, but some were like that, of course, just like every other immigrant, within a few generations, the "Mother tongue" is pretty much forgotten.

came over 65 years after the potato famine.

But you're right, some people coming over spoke Gaelic.

And they settled in Carbondale Pa and where he worked in the coal mines and died at 46...

'nuff said.

Most evil post I've ever seen on DU.

Congratulations. Or something.

And she just forgot to use the sarcasm smilie.

No one ever needs to wonder how the country got as low as it did I suppose... The answer is right in front of our eyes: its electorate.

anti-immigration whine "But I love brown people, I mean, Mexicans. Just not when they sneak into my country and steal food right out of my kid's mouth".

Didn't quite pass the smell test.

whenever we question blatant racism, we're expected to pull a ready-made 100% Guaranteed Solution To The Immigration Problem out of our keisters.

Racism- as defined by random house is:n. the idea that one's own race is superior.

Show me where I espoused or said anything like that.

I'll wait...

I know it was the part where I said that we should do something... to slow down the influx of illegal aliens...ooppss...that's it! :crazy:

I'm a "blatant racist" wow...I believe in enforcing the current immigration laws...too...

I mean, I know you say you went to school and learned four languages and all, maybe English wasn't covered ?

Show me where I called you that.

How long before you can get it translated?

Never mind, I'll wait.




Oh, and I know you're not able to pull up links but maybe someone can help you with this one, because your narrow definition of racism is sorely lacking, (kind of like your critical thought skills):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

"whenever we question blatant racism"

If you aren't calling me a blatant racist then you are coming really close to accusing me of it...what's the difference...?

And as for my definition it's out of my random house dictonary...copyright...1980...when I bought it for school...

How does "doing something before it's too late..." equate into racism...?

As for your English insult...I don't need to address your childlish remarks...such as you are showing now...

As for my critical thought skills...as I said before attack the messenger and ingore the message...

I thought we were all here to share and expand our own thoughts and Ideas...your continually personal insults have woke me up here...and to the true motives of people like you...I don't want to believe that the DU is like that...censorship of free thought...wow...how dissappointing...

I still challenge you to express your Ideas on the issue and problem...yet nothing...I guess that's how much you hold in your little mind...
:sarcasm:

All right, let's go over this one more time for the logic challenged individuals in the audience.

See, when I posted "whenever we question blatant racism" I meant whenever we question blatant racism.



Notice I didn't mention you, your post or anything whatsoever to do with you.


Your begging the question allows me to ignore the rest of your barely coherent post, which was the only pleasurable thing about this exchange.

post on this terrible subject...

I don't know why I keep wasting my time with you...I never said I was or implied I was perfect...

But your condensing attitude makes me believe you don't really want and true communication or discussion of this subject...

I will now depart your foolishness...

And as far as your departure, promises promises...

I know how it is, I was unemployed for six months.

Look at the bright side, you can use this time to catch up on DU.

When you're not pounding the pavement, that is.

And DUers love to help each other, I'm sure they might be able to give you some ideas for your job search.

want so their low payed Mexican Guest Workers can have easy passage.

Having a 2000 mile fence/wall whatever, is going to cost BILLIONS of dollars we do NOT have to build, maintain, and run. To get to the point, I think we need to reconsider immigration in general, and free trade, because they are NOW linked in a very intimate way. Many of the reasons why people are desparate enough to get to the US is because of skyrocketing unemployment due to US farm subsidies forcing Mexican farmers off their land, NAFTA, and the WTO, allowing US and Canadian Companies, to open factories in Mexico for these newly freed farmers, then, after the local economy is destroyed, they move to cheaper nations, leaving the Mexican workers with NO opportunities to find work, so they go to the closest neighbor that has any opportunities to speak of. Are we supposed to be surprised at this development? I'm not, I just hate the demonizing of poor workers trying to get by, when its those rich fucks in their gated communities that we need to punish for this and many other policies that ONLY benefit them.

with an expert on immigration.

One thing she said stayed with me, people don't WANT to leave their families, their homes.

If we give ALL humans basic rights, food, shelter, education, medical care, they wouldn't.

Idealistic, maybe, but it made sense to me.


Building a wall between the US and Mexico for the sole purpose of keeping out the people we stole it from is just a tad too "compassionate conservative" for me.

:shrug:

OK the Republicans are a big fan of NAFTA, right, yet they get on this illegal immigration binge like its the end of the world. OK, let me get this straight, they like "Free Trade" agreements that free up capital from tariffs and unfair taxation and fines, as they view it, but they do not want to do the same with labor? Is something missing here? Is it just me or do they just want to go half way on this, I mean, the economy is built on two major columns, capital to invest, and labor to put that investment to work, if one is freed, but the other is not, is that really free trade?

Ask any of them to clarify their stand on labor.

I seriously doubt many of them ever considered the contradiction.

They would be the first to say, "Let the Market decide", by the way NAFTA is structured, this uptick in illegal immigration was a predictable outcome, no ambiguities there. So when they turn around and complain about it NOW, its seems, to me, that they are bitching about what they wanted in the first place. Given this, the BEST way to handle Illegal immigration would be to reform or get rid of NAFTA and other "free" trade agreements we have right now. An Idea that's been forming in my mind is this, the Business community already have established organizations looking out for their interests in free trade, the WTO is a perfect example of this, why not form a WLO, a World Labor Organization, an organization with TEETH that would be able to help hammer out deals for Union recongnition, worldwide, and to help pass laws to protect labor, increase wages, etc. This would help stop the race to the bottom that is occuring now, that's a guarantee.

Another idea, in tandem to this, is a reformation of NAFTA, if we are going to have TRUE free trade, let's do it based on OTHER free trade blocs around the world, but let's do it right, and be transparent on it. Free movement of peoples, a common currency, and a phasing in of Mexico, so to give it time to increase its standard of living to Canadian and US levels. This includes the recognition of Unions, for example the UAW is the primary Union of GM, Ford, and Daimler-Chrysler, so when they open a factory in Mexico, those laborers will then have the right to form a union that is affiliated with the UAW. This would increase the influence and power of these Unions and also make them more international, appropriate for working within surpranational organizations.

Unfortunately, so have the corporate crooks and their paid lackeys.

They would never let go of their stranglehold on labor.

We couldn't even elect politicians who would back such policies because the better part of the latter half of the last century was spent brainwashing the masses.

Portraying all communist and socialist policies as evil, vilifying the UN, 24/7 messages beaming the "American Dream" into pastel suburban ranches, and shrieking in mortal terror at the very mention of open borders have all been very successful tactics.

If you doubt me, have another look at the DUers who support the "fence" and their ever so "logical" reasons why.



on edit, your ideas are sound, please don't think I'm pissing on them. I'm just cynical and sick of reading the posts of the closet bigots and fear mongers.
I almost left DU last year over the Minute Men threads, I have issues with anti-immigration bots.

The brainwashing I do agree with and the vilifying of the UN too.

The real Power brokers of this planet do, in fact, what a "NWO"...I'm sure you've heard of it...new world order...one gov't, one currency, all zillions of slaves...ooppss...I'm mean workers...

I suspect "you protest too much" and are you an immigrant(1st generation) or former illegal alien?

I'v never said anything about "anti-immigration", I do believe I said enforce the laws, which would bring some stability to the situation...


Fear mongers...DID YOU LOOSE YOUR JOB DUE TO YOUR EMPLOYER HIRING ILLEGALS?

I DID...PERIOD...WALK 5 MILES IN MY SHOES YOU CLOSED MINDED PERSON!

Do you think you're the only person I've called out on this issue?

WHy don't you spend your time reading the op instead of trying to guess my motives?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:patriot:

Why we ever let you Lithuanian boatpeople in, with your weird language and your bad fences that hurt people, I don't know.

We were too nice.

:rofl:

I'm busted.

I'm an illegal alien.

Take me to your leader.

:)

You slay me, you really do! Hell, I prefer that giant pic of the jackals fighting that one of them kept posting last week...I feel just like that and my teeth are quicker and sharper! All the better to eat them with, my dear!

BMUS, you are too cute!

You're no slouch yourself!

is not? I did not call "you" anything at all! On the other hand, within this immigration debate, you have consistently accused others of being drunken, condescending, "Lexus Liberals", professionals without a clue, and anti-working class; when that doesn't work, you dig out your gigantic photo to end any intelligent discussion.

You certainly have an odd way of defining "offense".

I love you people sooo much this morning I think I'll:puke:


Those Lithuanian fence builders are really scary...but the boatbuilders are the worst!:loveya:


Thanks for letting me in...but if I had come here illegally and then got hurt on your property because you were trying to keep me out of your hen house and stealing your food and I then sued you for getting hurt while entering your country illegally...WOW...THIS IS TRULY THE LAND PAVED IN GOLD...then took your job...UHMMMM...I think you would then understand why I stand by what I say!!!

I love our stupid americans...and you guys keep trying to paint a picture of me that isn't anywhere near the truth of who and what I am...but I can handle your criticisms...it's keeping me awake this morning...

And your cold ignorance is the reality of this Country...today...for shame....for shame....

Shame on me.

:rofl:

OKAY....JUST AN IDEA...a starting point to a very real problem..."Salon" has some great thoughts and Ideas that I do agree with...

that's was I was hoping for...communication and discussion...

Are looking at the wrong organization, if you want a "real" conspiracy, look to the WTO, I don't know half of what the fuck they do, and neither do you, why, because they aren't transparent, and they are a club that represents the Chambers of Commerce for the world, basically. This lack of transparency and input from the people of the world, all 6 billion these people can affect the lives of is disturbing to say the least. They, in addition to the IMF, hold more power than most countries in the world, and that is even more alarming.

Now, onto the illegal immigration thing, a couple of things, enforcing the laws is all well and good, but would it be effective? Look up the War on Drugs, we could declare a war on Illegal Immigration and be in the same boat we are in with the War on Drugs now in 20 years, more arrests, more deportations, endless cycle. Instead why not work on comprehensive solutions that have both short term and long term goals that are ATTAINABLE. That's one reason why I oppose the building of a wall, albatross and waste of time and money come to mind for that stupid idea. Physically keeping people out has never really worked on a large scale, ever. Like I said, I brought up a few ideas, the effects, if implemented as policy on both sides of the border, would be probably an exodus, voluntary, of many illegal immigrants, simply for the fact that they will have new opportunities at HOME, where their families are at.

In addition to this, if we were to create a "North American Union", modeled, loosely, on the European Union, that means that Anyone who are citizens of either Canada, the USA, or Mexico could travel FREELY to anywhere there are opportunities for work. Me, personally, Cancun sounds nice, and I speak a little Spanish and French, maybe I could become a tourist greeter or something, probably would get better pay than I would here. But that isn't the point, the point is, if we, the workers, lowly laborers, can do this, that means that we would also be able to have the same PROTECTIONS that we have right now, and can lobby for MORE of them, in all three Countries.

To give an example of the side effects of such a trading bloc taking form, Canada would be in the best position to compete for jobs, something neither the US nor Mexico are obligated to do now, they would have to offer the same plans for health care, UHC would end up becoming a fact of life for all three nations. Not to mention that the US and Mexico would have to change labor laws and enviromental laws to those of Canada, skewing in favor of WORKERS rather than bigassed corporations. Granted, this is all assuming precisely HOW the agreement is structured, but we could work on it, through a transparent and democratic process, if we elect the right politicians.

I really can see alot of what you are saying...it would take time and true leadership...

But...Didn't China have a wall that worked for almost 2,000 years?

You are definitly changing my mind on the whole fence idea...DID I MENTION THAT IT WAS ONLY AN IDEA?

Good point on the WTO...I have heard/read a few things...be the internet sleuth that I am...and I really don't trust all of the concentration of power into one government...too much power in one place...

But I do like the idea of humans as a species, working together for a common goal and for the betterment of all. But, power corrupts...we all know this...


I see the waste of the human labor in our world today, building weapons and guns and then having wars then doing it all over again..crazy, crazy, crazy...

If those resources were put to feeding, clothing, caring for each other...my goodness...we would have a bridge of gold from here to the Moon and back...we waste so much of our own hard work...and spirit...

has been roughly following the model Solon proposes and they organize restaurants and hotels, btw. They even have a sane position on immigration.

Good luck and good night.

http://www.seiu.org/

The idea was to keep the "barbarians" of the Mongols out of the country, they used to raid Chinese villages all the time. The problem was that the Chinese couldn't man the wall properly, and many times in history it was in disrepair. Its an impressive structure, but was also full of holes, not holes in the structure, but holes of another sort. It was quite common for the "barbarians" on one side of the wall to go to the other side, for trade, meet family, etc. Lax security probably comes to mind as far as this is concerned, but then again, what other option did they have, their wouldn't have BEEN villages on the Chinese side if the barbarians couldn't trade with them.

Not to mention that have you forgotten Ghengis Khan, and his grandson, Kublai? The wall didn't even slow either one of them down, and by the end, Ghengis founded the largest empire the world has ever seen, stretching from Korea in the East to the Rhine river in the west. Not to mention that it stretched from the Arctic Ocean to the North, and Persia(Iran today) to the south. He probably could have gone much further, conquering most of Europe, and probably add India to the list, if natural barriers, not manmade ones, weren't in the way.

Okay you've convinced me...that fence thing wasn't so good...but the other ideas you mentioned are fantastic and realistic...

Just hope I'm around when we get it all together...it may take a generation or two...

But we have to start somewhere and do it together...for us...

Thanks Salon...and good night for now...been at this for a couple of hours now...

I needed my own thoughts fine tuned so to speak...thanks for helping framing this issue into a concise and eloquent "plan of action"...

I've got tons of time on my hands right now...

While I did put some thought into this, an idea of "bottom up" globalization, or, as I probably would call it, "Globalization for the rest of us", I'm not the only one, the FTAA has yet to be approved because people hit the streets, whether it was Florida or Bolivia, people hit the streets, Argentine farmers, Mexican laborers and fruitpickers from Nicaragua are marching side by side with Union Steel workers from Canada and the US, because they know that the FTAA is NAFTA reloaded and 10 times worse.

The corporate media is in control of a fantasy, a fantasy they constructed that most people in the world are waking up from, and seeing the reality in their own lives, rather than on the boob tube. Not to mention that, with the Left rising to the south of us, all the way to our own border, I say that the backlash from the past 60 years of corporate abuse is starting, and its starting with a bang, if you will. Unlike past movements in this area, which focused almost exclusively on labor only, this is a multifaceted movement, where enviromentalists and Union workers are marching to the same drumbeat, and these are considered traditional antagonists! But people are finding out, now more than ever, that these issues are linked, that having a clean planet increases opportunities and having good pay at work goes hand in hand with that. Not only that, but, the surprising thing is that, for some reason, and excluding the small minority of Anarchists, this movement is damned near pacifist. As we know from history, traditional labor movements blazed the trail through blood and iron, but today, given the now constraints on much of the worlds oligarchs, that they cannot just simply kill these people en mass, the movement is growning, and actually affecting change, peacefully.

This isn't to say this is true worldwide, strikers still face death when they go up against corporations, whether its Shell endorsing the actions of Nigeria in killing of enviromentalists, or the Phillipines killing off striking farmers. Its a tough battle, but, overall, we are beginning to turn the tide. The change is slow, too slow, in my opinion, but the revolutions of the past are now turning into the demonstrations of the present, and nowadays, especially after the fall of the wall, the old accusations and stigmas attached to the word "Socialist" is now beginning to sound hollow, even here in the United States.

With the rise of the Internet going hand in hand with this rise of worldwide movements, we now have the tools to fight the rich on even ground, the hearts and minds of the majority. Think of the beginning of the Iraq war, a single demonstration took place that first day of the war, in over 40 cities, in over a dozen countries, people marched against the war, the single biggest demonstration in history. While the Bush Administration did not bother to listen to those "damned rabblerousers", those people have been proven right, and the history books WILL reflect that. There is only so much the Oligarchs of the world can do, they are NOT Gods, and shouldn't be considered as such, they are people just like us, with all the same frailities, the only difference is that we outnumber them by about 10 to 1. They cannot hold onto power forever, not without our permission, I say we simply say NO to those bastards, and send them packing back behind their gates, and then lock it, on the outside.

and that's the key, if we can wake up enough people, we can change things.

But look at how many on the left are still in denial about what's going on.

Every time the media whores shout "Over there!", we're off on another round of "As long as we can blame the other guy...".

The fact that the voices of our social conscience from the '60s are having to drag their tired bones out of retirement because the "me" generations didn't learn from history speaks volumes about how far we have to go.

example) been protesting NAFTA and the WTO for a long time now and in some places, right along side of undocumented workers just as Solon suggests.

on the kids who couldn't be bothered to vote in the last two elections.

Even worse, the young women who sat this last one out. :mad:

in 2004. Nakedly. Remember? Their reg forms went missing, they got robot calls saying their financial aid would be cut off if they voted in the wrong place and their precincts were under equipped and they were made to stand in "alternate" lines to vote.

And then, the Thugs crowed the whole weekend after the election that they "didn't show up" for Kerry. Looking back, it was a real piece of work.

it will be too late.

We'll already have been absorbed by Microsoft/Coca-Cola/Walmart Inc.

:)

but we might lose some dear ones along the way, that is what has always made me sad. Historically, when workers get their shit together, the hammer comes down plenty hard and we've already seen that this is a no-holds-barred battle that we're in now. It ain't gonna get easier and we ain't seen nothin' yet...I think when the students and the soldiers join up, it will get very very nasty.

I'm so looking forward to May 1st this year...

Arise, ye prisoners of starvation!

I've lost just about everything, but that just means I've got less to lose.

My brothers might be bound by their shackles to the military complex, but my DD214 proves I'm my own person, free and clear.

Right now, we are having an effect, however, at the moment, its more a reaction, being a successful obstruction to bad policy, than anything else. This isn't to detract from the effect, the WTO hasn't had a successful meeting in almost 5 years, due to people being on the streets, and the FTAA is pretty much dead in the water as well. But, that shouldn't be considered a victory, instead, it should be considered a step, in the ashes of these failed structures, we the PEOPLE of the world have an opportunity, one where, if we are to have Globalization at all, its going to be Globalization on OUR terms, working for US rather than the multinationals that have dominated our lives for the past 2 decades or so.

So, take the proactive stance, elect leaders with ideas more aligned with your own, create new supranational organizations that work for Globalizing labor rather than just capital, and perhaps we would have a world without sweatshops, a world where kids go to school rather than factories, a world where local economies are encouraged over multinational corporations, a world where opportunities aren't confined to but one nation or region, but are availuable everywhere. A world of sustainability.

But then again, I have reason to be optimistic right now, first things first, while I do agree that the old '60s radicals are leading the charge, once again, they are now doing it more or less in an advisor role with the younger gen X and Yers now up and coming on this. It took a hell of a long time before the radicals of the past were able to hit their stride, and again, its happening, but the with a similar timetable. There are significant difference today, first, its not just one or two issues that we are talking about, like Civil Rights or the Vietnam War. Second, given the realities today of what we are up against, the role of Americans, alone, has been greatly reduced. We may be the LAST on the planet to get a clue, but the key here is that the Majority worldwide get it, even if they are a little faster than us Americans.

See, that's part of the reason I'm optimistic about this, the tide is turning, not here in the States, but elsewhere in the world, when I talk about the South, I'm talking the Global South, the African Union, or the South American Community of Nations. These are representative of the future, not the old structures that dominated in the past, of European descendants controlling the lives of the unwashed masses, but of those masses taking control of their own destiny, defying the orders of their old masters, and blazing new trails. Its going to be a long struggle, one with bumps in the road, and bodies on the streets, but in the end, the struggle will bear fruit, whether the US ends up helping to lead the charge, or limp behind it is rather a moot point.

But I also know at least half, probably more, of Americans will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

If we can just get them out of their damn hidey holes and into the sunlight...

Us Americans are lazy and maybe it will take us seeing it somewhere else to realize they are right...

Despite Bill Gates support of GW...I have to thank him for the internet...oh wait that was Gore's idea...but Bill did bring it to us masses...through "Windows"...

We have so many more resources than just 20 years ago...I love what you're saying "Salon"

Good Job...keep us thinking and not fighting...divide and conquer no more...

Google it.

It's important.

When, when will it end!

He could look at my Journal, have a Nice portrait of myself on there. :)

:rofl:

tell that to the Iroquois Confederation, which was in existence as a democracy before the first settlers even showed up from Britian!

BTW: I think Bush is a reincarnation of Draco, Gods, was that guy an Asshole. Bush is positively Draconian. :)

which is a pity.

Because if anyone ever deserved to come back as a toilet brush, it's Little Lord PissyPants.
:evilgrin:

from getting to the Hoover Institute yesterday? They forced him to have his powwow with the Grope at Schulz's house instead.

http://cbs5.com/local/local_story_111223815.html

He didn't have a very nice day, did he?

:nopity:

near were out -- in Orinda (near Berkeley) with signs: "No to woman-hating Christo-facist Theocracy!"

He never went near the place in the run up to Nov 2004, does he think California residents are happier than they were then?

I'm starting to wonder who's pulling his strings now.

You know Rove wouldn't have let that happen.

I love constructive ideas...reality is that we should talk more about this...but the idea about the "WLO" is great...

:toast:

Long years ago, the english pastoral villiages had common land
all around them. This land was seen as a public asset, and it
was free to the poor, so that nature handled the barbaric externalities
of human society by taking the extra.

Then the big landlords and governers made a landgrab, and bought up
all the land and put fences around it. This forced the poor to become
outlaws to survive. The ripples across history could be said to
include the enlgish civil war and the formation of the USA... where
there was enough room for the masses to have franchise... and now the
USA has become entirely fenced as the final act of the english gentry
begun centuries ago... and the poor are now to be truly imprisoned
and executed like the english set out so long ago.

In a world of free will, the tragic predictability of the trajectory
of generational human stupidity....

The scene continues.

<<<"I think it would be like the Berlin Wall," said the longtime resident of Carricitos, a small community on the Rio Grande. "Didn't they tear that down? A lot of people here don't want it.">>>


Now, that is a moronic statement. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in (enslaved). The wall between the US and Mexico would be for keeping invaders out and maintaining a definitive border between two independent nations.

This is america we were built on immigration that being said yes i feel we should continue to let people into the county but only legal immigrants i don't think we need a fence i think we need some people in office with some common sense as it stands now we attracting illegal immigrants by giving them jobs

Solution make employers responsible to check a persons work status and give them the means to do it. Fine them thousands of dollars if caught hiring an illegal. less employers would be willing to hire them in turn a big deterrent for them to come here illegally

There is a high demand for immigrants allow more applications per year

why would anyone be opposed to learning a second language it doesn't make you less american because your that much more educated.

Welcome to DU.

An impressive first post. :)

to provide.

America was built on the basis of legal immigration. This is about people who break into our country and work in the underground economy, which serves to drive wages down for Americans. They also consume social, medical and educational sevices, which serves to drive these costs up for Americans.

Furthermore, they cause those who follow the rules to feel like suckers for doing so. And there is something terribly wrong with that.

I agree that there should be a crackdown on employers who hire illegals, but that is just not going to happen. Thus, Americans are left with no choice other than to take matters into their own hands.

This is only the beginning and it is going to get ugly.

certain peoples from other countries. It was about our government using its power to take advantage of situations in other sovereign nations, to kidnap and enslave, or lure and entice downtrodden people to come here, explicitly for the purposes of profiting from their labor while exploiting their status.

When "Americans" got restless, the government has always redirected the heat away from their own policies and solved the problem by "pointing" the finger at whatever minority is most vulnerable or apparent at the time and using racism, bigotry, and thuggery to keep the masses of common people divided, fighting among themselves, and under control.

It is American tradition to enact laws which encourage discrimination and exclude whole races of workers from becoming "legal", once their presence is no longer profitable and there were no such things as visas or green cards when the bulk of this Immigrant Nation was built. People came here in droves to escape starvation or oppression in their homelands, simply doing what was necessary to survive. The laws of exclusion that were passed against the Chinese immigrants (after we broke their backs to build this nation's railroads) used the very same reasons you've stated, to drum up support for such draconian measures. Fear of "foreigners" or people of color and the claim that they somehow lower our own status have long been the tool our government uses to keep us all down.

This is about a country whose economy can only thrive by maintaining a class of exploited and impoverished workers, preventing them from uniting and organizing, and systematically disenfranchising certain segments by criminalization.

This ploy by which the vigilantes building fences on the border excites anyone who holds hatred for any people of color is just another shameful instance of our government trying to sic their racist base on everyone, citizen and non-citizen, who may look or sound a bit "foreign". The coming harassment will include all immigrants, sucker or sneaker, legal or illegal, and defies the very principles a democratic nation purports to represent.

You are right, this is only the beginning, and it may very well get ugly, but I haven't a doubt that the people who work hard for a living in this country and uphold human rights for all, will win, because frankly, the racist goons are outnumbered.

there's one behind every tree.

This has nothing to do with racism; it's about addressing a problem that the federal government has ignored for 30 years. The American people want this problem to be addressed (80%+) and since their government has failed to do so, they are going to do it themselves.

And like you say, they will (win).

demanding respect, justice, and rights, or else. While you choose to ignore the history of immigrant rights and oppression in this country, whatever problem you think has just arisen in the past 30 years will only be solved by the working-class standing united as one mighty force and reclaiming the power they had back when all of the advancements of modern-day labor were won by the struggles of immigrants.

And, again, those who uphold democratic principles, abhor racist discrimination and harassment, know the history of the methods used to divide and weaken working people in America, and believe in human rights for all, most certainly do greatly outnumber those who wish to perpetrate the system of greed that Corporate America depends upon!

beg to differ. Just because he hasn't done his job for the past five years doesn't mean the job is undoable.

He's just the wrong man for the job. And again, it has nothing to do with racism.

the country now, because goons are going to make it "doable"? Is that why established businesses of Mexican-Americans are being burned to the ground, because somebody has "nominated" themselves to do the "job"?

Don't suppose those actions might be hate crimes...naw, couldn't be racism...how can you even think that they are not?

People of color in this country are treated to the joys of racism in their daily lives, continually. Promoting a round-up of any supposed "illegals" will set loose a free-for-all upon every single person who isn't white, speaks with an accent or a brogue, or who may have looked at you crosswise, six months ago last Sunday.

Whatever will the conservative right-wing suggest next? Perhaps a bounty? Fill up another Gitmo with "suspected illegals"?

What fun it'll be to see America become a disgrace to humanity!

I'm pretty sure they built the wall in israel to curb some of the suicide bombers killin Innocent people

thats not the problem here thank god but if it were i might reconsider the wall

As in how much are YOU willing to pay to build this fence? Project the cost - and send a one time bill to all citizens. This sounds like a HUGELY expensive (call it folly?) endeavor - yet no one talks about the cost, or about the per person cost.

How many doctors,lawyers,accountants,nurses,teachers,scientist do you see complaining about mexican immigrants taking there jobs Ummm i don't no any why you ask because the people are very poor mostly uneducated doing what they have to to support there family's like picking blueberry damit all the illegals took my first career choice i guess ill go to plan B mc Donald's Damit they wont hire me I'm not bilingual.

The first real problem is the health care issue and all of the above professions will agree there health care is going through the roof because the illegals cant afford a doctor so they go to our emergence room where by law they have to be treated no matter what which is fine because i no i would hate to be dieing and the hospital said sorry cant help you.

The other problem is they are not paying taxes and neither are there employers

You say how do we fix it read my above post.

Where do they get them money to become a doctor,lawyer,accountant,teacher,scientist? Not everyone is born with a silverspoon in their mouth.

well it starts with finishing high school. Then lets see your poor you say. Wow I guess its a good thing you live in america where anyone can get an education and pay for it with student loans. Or if your really poor goverment grants common dont make yourself look like a fool on the forums.

At least from what I think your posting since your post is pretty INDECIPHERABLE.

Enlighten Me Please

People still need to have food, clothing, and shelter while attending school. Books are very expensive too. And not everyone has a rich mommy and daddy to provide these thing. Do you really think that the 30 million American workers living in poverty can just all become doctors if they really wanted to?

You must be a pre clinton Dem i need welfare o woa is me

You can stay in your dream world where everyone has an equal opportunity if you wish, but it is just a dream world.

the increased hurdles making it harder and harder to overcome the further down the economic ladder one is. Thus it isn't an 'equal playing field'. But it is still possible and does still happen. This is one of those times I would say both of you have a point. Though with the combination of escalating costs for college tuition (even for in-state tuition at state schools) with the decreasing availability of grants and indicators suggesting more hurdles coming down the pike per loans - the day could be coming where the obstacles for the poor which make it very difficult could make it nearly impossible save for the unique kids who end up at the very top of their class upon graduating from HS (and have already overcome obstacles to accomplish this.)

Your exactly what we need in the Democratic party. O life is tough lets all throw are hands in the air and give up.

I don't no about you but I moved out at 18. Parents moved out of state. Was on my own never asked for a handout once. Same for my wife she moved in with me at 17 we both have degree's. I worked for 4 years for 7.50 an hour till she got her degree. Mind you we had to have a room mate to cover 1/2 the bills and it was rough. then she put me through school now we own 2 homes 3 cars a boat and are student loans are paid for I'm 31 shes 30 cry me a river.

That's not the direction the Democratic party needs to go in. Other people have different obstacles and expenses than you and if you have 0 empathy for others perhaps your in the wrong party. I'm not saying to give up, I'm just trying to inform you that not every one comes into life with privilege. Some people never get a descent education in grammar school. It's not their fault, yet they may suffer a lifetime of hardship because of it. Your pull yourself up by your own bootstraps mentality is more in line with the other party. I'm glad it worked out for you. But most people aren't you.

BTW: Triangulation is dead!

You just made it sound like there was no hope for the poor and I was nutz for even saying you could make it being poor.

I am very much in line with the Dem's. This is why I posted a solution to the immigration problem.
I understand how it affects the impoverished.
I also support government funded education plans like grants loans and so forth. I feel this is the best way to resolve the poverty problem by educating our people. I understand some will not make it out of poverty and some don't want too. But if we don't try we get no where. I am more of A middle of the road Dem I admit it but a Dem through and through.

There area increasing obstacles for those with the least incomes to accomplish what you have accomplished. Can't deal with public policies unless one recognizes the issues. Working in urban ed I know that a) it is still possible to do as you say; but I also know that the spiking costs of tuition (including in-state tuitions) along with decreasing sizes of grants and proposed increased hurdles to loans, makes those obstacles harder and harder for many to overcome.

In our state the tendency over the past five years is to cut back $ at the state level for the public U.s and make toothless threats to the U.s that they need to slow the rate of increases in tuitions ... but the actual fiscal policies at the state level make the tuition hikes inevitable. This is making the squeeze on those with few resources tighter and tighter - and resulting in more lower income, first generation college students dropping out.

I would point once again to economic weaknesses in our overall economy as a big part of the core problem. Fewer jobs that pay decently (we have lost a ton of manufacturing jobs in this state since bushco came to town), puts more burdens on families financially, requiring more kids to work earlier which hits them academically (in terms of being prepared to get in, let alone succeed) - which also has an effect on shrinking state budgets due to lower incomes which has an effect on support for state U.s which traditionally have been viewed as an investment to the state (state Us traditionally subsidize the overall cost per student) as having a better educated populace is considered valuable economically.

Don't know that throwing out insults about who is good or not good for the democratic party does much to move serious discussions about current policies that are eroding our infrastructure and economic stability as a nation/society. This is an issue that one has to step away from the individual and look at overall trends - and consider overall impact on society due to those policies and trends.

Congrats to you and your wife, btw. Please don't take what I wrote to mean I am discounting your experience. Many are still getting through degrees in similar fashion. But trends indicate it is getting harder and harder for this to be the case. That bodes poorly for us as a nation, imo. Tons of lost potential - just when we are going to need to be increasing our economic/intellectual capital edge in order to try to overcome the damage of the JRs years/era.

I think moving our manufacturing company's out of the country was a mistake considering are main export is intellectual property now and in the coming years we will have a sharp decline in that Field due to a lack of educated americans, thus creating a huge middle class in china/india where education is stressed.

points here and above well taken. Would also suggest that problems increased when the 'economic dev. zones' began around the border under bushsr - which moved manufacturing plants to the mexican side of the border - but the co.s coerced agreements from the govt (as in we won't move our plant and any jobs if you don't agree) including allowing no organizing of labor, no wage guarantees (eg no minimum wages), allowed no workers safety type restrictions to be imposed upon the co.s - Thus the promised increases in living standards didn't materialize. In the intervening years more of the same. Why is it that there has been little to no economic improvement due to Nafta? Because the companies are able to exploit labor, and pay next to nothing. If there were more economic opportunties that actually could lift people out of poverty, than fewer people would be immigrating.

My earlier post was a cynical way of pointing out that Americans under bush tend to want expensive things without paying for them - and also want to have no new taxes. Thus - putting a price tag to this proposal (one that I think wouldn't work any way and thus is folly) - that would include paying for it - by citizens (ala a tax increase to pay for it) would kill the proposal dead in the water.

Theres hundreds of reason why it is like it is. like I stated above we need leadership and educated Representatives in office or it will be more of the same.

we need leadership and educated Representatives in office or it will be more of the same.

I fear it will be worse than 'more of the same' as the monumental misteps seem to escalate the problems and make the types and magnitude of the problems exponentially grow worse.

I think Ross Perrow said it best when it comes to republican spending "it just dont add up" lol

The Great Wall of China didn't keep the Mongols out. The Emperor of China in the time of Marco Polo was the Kublai Khan, an invading Mongol. Since undocumented workers from Asia are being smuggled in here through Canada, do they intend on building a wall all along the northern USA? What about the oceans? are we going to build walls on our beaches? How about the air? Are we going to put a big net up in our skies?

Now all those private property owners along the border in California, Arizona and Texas have a right to build walls on their property. However, they want the federal government to do it with our tax money. No way! Let them pay for their own walls.

:rofl:

a monument to stupidity

I don't think the fence would work, thanks to a cunning Mexican invention known as the wire-cutter, and an even more fiendish object called a ladder, but I don't think that opposition to illegal immigration is ipse facto "racist" or "xenophobic" as I've seen it termed.

If, like me, you believe that America's treatment of immigrants is too harsh, then the solution is to change the law to make legal immigration easier, not to refrain from enforcing that law; if a law isn't going to be enforced it shouldn't exist.

Illegal immigration means that the immigrants have no protection against exploitation, that they don't pay taxes, that they are often abused, ripped off or even killed by people traffickers, that there are no checks on who does and who doesn't immigrate, that the immigrants can't vote, and that (in the case of the Mexican/American border) they often die making the attempt.

However, I think the only effective way to prevent it is to reduce the temptation. Simply encasing America in a large perspex box won't work - if people are starving, and they can see the opportunity of a better life just over the border (or the ocean) then human ingenuity being what it is, a lot of them will get past whatever barricades are erected, and a lot more will die trying to.

The only solution is to make legal immigration a more viable option, I think (although reducing poverty in other countries would help too). This will have the side benefit of making people-smuggling less profitable, making it harder for genuine undesirables to get into a country.

However, I *don't* think that not enforcing whatever laws on immigration *are* on the statute books is the solution, for the above reasons. The solution is to change the laws, not to ignore them.

I think this fence is a bad idea, but only because it's expensive and wouldn't work.

, . . "but I don't think that opposition to illegal immigration is ipse facto "racist" or "xenophobic" as I've seen it termed."

I think there's more than one thing going on here. For many people, this is not an issue of legality but an issue of basic human rights. And, if one takes those as a center, then you also have to be for order, for laws to protect Labor and workers' rights and so on. But for us, that's the center of this group of issues.

On the other hand, those of us that have been piping up about nationalism run amuck, incipient xenophobia or worse, racism, aren't just testing the wind or responding to nothing at all. We've been reading posts such as this one below, which has much more to do with abject ignorance of fact and with fear (that phobia word) than it does with policy:



The Gov't doesn't need to pay for it...there are land owners who have done

This is not a bad idea, you guys (and gals) here don't get the whole picture...as bizarre as this sounds but there are land owners on the border that have put up their own fences and then have been sued by Illegal aliens who got hurt crossing the border?

There is a real problem here and "the fence talk" is a good starting point in this problem.

Also, as I understand it, if you do put up a fence on YOUR OWN LAND, you can be arrested in some places...Why don't we just hand over America to Mexico...wouldn't cost much...in fact...maybe our taxes would go down...and I mean the taxes for us poor people...OH WAIT!!! We are already doing it with giving them our jobs...



There is a "Mexican Talk Radio Personality", don't know his name, but he's out of LA and he's proud of the fact that in 10 years, Mexicans will be the largest minority in American and in 50 years THEY WILL BE THE MAJORITY!

I know our Country is screwed up with *ush and Co. right now...but do we want the same corruption here that is routine in MEXICO?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I was really *issed at hearing that Spanish is being considered as the official language in some places...

My grandparents came from Ireland and Lithuania and met on the boat coming here in 1912 and they had to learn English to work and get along...why should it be any different for anyone else?

The illegal's are ruining it for the ones that come here legally and try their best...

I'm all for a wall or a fence or better yet...mines...mine the border...shouldn't cost that much...IF WE DO NOTHING...America will no longer be...We are quickly going down the road to the status of a Third World Nation...and I don't want to see that happen...

As for the economics, that's just BS spun by people that don't want to pay a decent wage and/or benefits to us hard working Americans...

* * *

There are lots of hardworking American Hispanics on this board that are well within their rights to be sort of horrified by these statements. And, this is a public board. That's the negotiation.

NT.

put arms around Latin. lol

hiring ------------------ wait for it --------------------- bussed in undocumented workers.

But, you probably knew that. :)

ho ho ho

And there should be NO fucking fences we are ALL citizens of the world.

Nice job.

I agree, completely.

:)

Just remember to give a hearty FUCK YOU to any reich winger hatemonger that wants put up a fence.

I'd LOVE to see this one try to build anything (besides his beer gut):

That poor t-shirt.:evilgrin:

Isn't he adorable?