I need HR help to fend off bullies in my workplace

I am a 56 year old married male and set up and operate some cnc machines here. Been employed 7 or 8 months.

Three 20 something young men have seen fit for complaining to our HR department that they find my occasional PG-13 to R rated sexual oriented comments. These include; Hey Fred did your pencil beard get you laid this weekend? Hey, John, can you get porn on your ipad? An older guy came by with stag tickets and I asked if there were going to be strippers.

And this is the charge I cherish the most:

I was at the comparator inspecting a part. I held it up to John and said; "Hey John, did I just make a sexy part or what?"

I have been excluded from any social interaction from these young men for my entire time here. I am being collegial and they have come up with what I call "bullying by personnel department"

I have been told by HR to speak to no one at work. I do not have a mean attacking bone in my body! I feel these three are bullying me for their sport and I don't consider any of them very emotionally mature.

I previous had spent 30 years in CNC Machine customer support. I would do new machine follow up and train customers how to use and get the most out of their new machine. I have a BS degree and have been asked to tailor my presentation to my audience, as I come off like I'm talking over somebodies head. I had to get more Archie Bunker machine shop profane to establish a relationship with a customer. It's not very unusual for adult males in a machine shop to use foul language and make sexually explicit comments.

I feel I have been set up and entrapped by these young men. THEY NRVER ASKED ME TO STOP USING SEXUAL LANGUAGE OR GAVE ME ANY INDICATION THEY DID NOT LIKE IT. I was just trying to be collegial and speak the language they have been immersed in by 20 years of internet, our coarse culture in general and rap music, which tends to use sexually explicit lyrics.

I have sensed exclusion and ostracism from these young men since I went to work here. I can be passive aggressive and after of a few days of being shunned and treated rudely, I would intentional violate their personal space and give them a football huddle grab of their shoulders. Like twice.

None of this was ever one on one. I would only talk in a vulgar way when there were 2 or more kids around. I have utterly no interest sexually in these kids, or men in general, and I don't do mean. I don't knowingly attack people or even knowingly try to make anybody feel bad.

I have been a bully magnet when I was young. But, it was just part of growing up and I now know that there are people out there that have a visceral dislike for me strictly for my persona. Frank Zappa has been my lifelong hero and I have studied and co-opted many of his values in life. I'm an articulate "critical thinker", as opposed to a happy idiot drone just smart enough to run a machine and make a living.

These 3 young men have the advocacy of the HR department and no company official has seen fit to advocate for my side. HR has given me nothing in writing and this is in the investigative stage. They contract out some HR functions and I was spoken to in a private office about this last Friday by a woman from ADP and her colleague on an I-phone. MY HR woman has told me this is preliminary and they have to take these charges seriously.

I have contacted and spoken with an Attorney, who advised me to ask HR to respond to these charges if it is going into my personnel files. Which I did.

I'd be happy to answer any questions from anybody, and I would appreciate anything from those here on DU that work in this type of HR job.

Thanks!

-90% Jimmy

I think it's from the Easy Rider movie. So...you need the job....you can't win fighting them...try and be the quite type....they soon will find other mischief. Male bonding won't happen there for you...ever. Unless another 56 year old 70's guy comes on the scene. Adapt...(((hug))).

I think your attorney gave you good advice. Let us know how HR responds.

In the meantime keep your mouth shut. I don't know what thier motivation is, maybe they were really offended.

Keep your ears open, maybe you will hear them say things that are a lot worse. Document it.

that a lot of 56 year olds have. Experience and competence. Scary and threatening. Hopefully the company will value your experience and competence higher than their testosterone and fear.

When I was in a similar situation, one of my colleagues advised me, "Don't let these creeps run you off!"

laid."

They are 30 years younger than you. Stop trying to be pals. And do as HR has requested, stop talking to them altogether. I see your job on the line here.

However, it would have been nice if someone had said something to you before they went to H.R. with their torches and pitchforks.

Honestly, I think you're pretty much gonna get fucked.

Just do everything your lawyer says, and be very, VERY contrite.

and then being surprised when people take offense, and then blaming the victims/recipients of that behavior...

This was not a well thought-out strategy.

Being relatively new at this job, I would have never made these remarks. In that short period of time, how could you possibly know how these types of comments would be received?

Does he or she also supervise the three guys? Is there a reason HR hasn't scheduled a meeting with the three guys and you to discuss the issue?

I think you assumed WAY too much about how people speak, behave and how they want to be treated.

I was going to ignore this but you asked for what people thought so here is what I think.

As you have described it there is a lot of inappropriate behavior here on your part - whether or not anyone asked you to stop. I would actually consider some of your own behavior bullying.
For example, intentionally invading people's personal space and grabbing their shoulders. "Like twice" seems lame to me. Are you sure it wasn't actually more than that? And was this the only interaction which got physical? I may be wrong but I am sensing there is a lot which is being left out here - particularly in what kinds of things were said and what the responses were.

I don't work in HR but I am a supervisor and repeated sexually oriented remarks in the workplace is not appropriate regardless of who it is directed at. Even if the recipient has no problem with it - others hear - and this can be considered "creating a hostile work environment." It may not be unusual for adult males in a machine shop to engage in sexually explicit language but this is no longer considered acceptable behavior in most workplaces. And the physical contact is really over the line. If you were being treated rudely there were more appropriate ways of dealing with it - starting with simply asking that the rude behavior stop and then taking it to a supervisor if it continued and asking for mediation. If I were the supervisor I would want to sort out exactly what the rude behavior was and what might have triggered it. For example, which came first, the boorish sexual remarks or the rude behavior? Because I would consider boorish sexual remarks to be rude behavior also and I might advise someone to try to ignore it at first as in pretend they didn't hear. Maybe that is what happened and you considered it rude?

Aside from the response of the others, have you considered the fact that chronic vulgar conversation in the workplace might actually interfere with productivity and this is one reason why HR is investigating? And this is the first time I have ever heard anyone suggest that the solution to "talking over someone's head" was to engage in vulgar talk. I am a teacher and my solution to that is to prepare better, make better handouts, explain things more concisely and clearly, and encourage questions. There is a place for humor in teaching or in the workplace but never at the expense of others and asking someone if "your pencil beard got you laid" is definitely at the expense of someone else and not only that, it is hostile and demeaning and thus in itself could be considered bullying behavior. The sex lives of your coworkers, male or female, alone or in a group, is none of your business. The fact that the person did not ask you to stop is no defense. He might have not known how to respond or was afraid that a request to stop would trigger even more comments and questions.

Who is bullying you here? If this story is true, then you don't have a leg to stand on. The answer for you will be to stop saying this kind of thing at your workplace. It is that simple. If you do not, you'll probably be out of a job.

If this is some kind of joke, then you told it badly, I think.

Thanks for all your replies. Here’s some more background; I started mid August. I had spent 30 years prior as a CNC Applications Engineer for machine builders and dealers. This is my first time at direct Manufacturing in a production machine shop. In my earlier career I would probably go on site to a machine shop 2 to 4 times a month, for 30 years.

A friend already working here got me the job. I didn’t think I could handle the pressure of production machining, so I never even looked in this arena. My friend “George” is late 30’s and we worked first shift closely together. And had adult discussions about cars, news, sex, our jobs, the weather, etc. There was also a younger fellow Igor around 27-8 that worked second shift and we overlapped 1-1/2 hours. WE GOT ALONG GREAT. Collegial, professional, working side by side. We respected each other and learned from each other. As a matter of fact, Igor went to work for a machine builder and I have been mentoring him, as I feel my thirty years in the world he’s just entered may come in handy for him. I probably had a few sex chats with him. Don’t remember, don’t care. It was just guys being guys and we were on the same wavelength. George left late Nov and Igor left mid Dec. So whats left is my antagonists; John and Fred. So speech that may have been acceptable to all changed into forbidden speech after George and Igor left. The 3rd guy started mid January of this year.

George told me that one of the young men, when he first went to work here 3 years ago, was out in the parking lot with George getting stuff off the catering truck. The young man, my main accuser, held a cold bottle of water to George’s head and then held him against the outside wall and challenged him to a fight right there. George floored him rather quickly. I don’t think there were any witnesses.

My friend George would spend his breaks talking to Nancy. The same young man would ask them if they were dating, and how their date went and if they were getting engaged. Harassing type stuff. Well, it got so uncomfortable for George, he stopped talking at break with Nancy.

I had one event early on with this young man. I put my hand on his shoulder after I had only been there a couple weeks and he recoiled. “I’m sorry, Fred, does that bother you?” Well, Jim, yeah, it kinda does.” "I’ll stop it immediately and I apologize." I can be crude and profane, but I really really do not knowingly make other people feel bad deliberately.

This was Fred’s lesson that if you have a problem with Jim, all you have to do is ask him to stop the behavior and he will. So after this, it looks like he decided to record every single time I said something sexually suggestive I ever said for the next six months, and enlisted his buddies to do the same. I feel they did not even want me to stop, but keep on being me and keep on digging my hole ever deeper every time.

I never ever considered the possibility that R rated language amongst a group of males in the 25-54 demographic could be construed as sexual harassment.

Now, I probably walk past or am near these 3 people about 10 times a day each. 30 possibilities a day for me to be my nasty vulgar self and they got me for a frequency of once a month. So once every 600 “harassment” opportunities were me saying something vulgar. (600 = 30 possibilities a day *22 work days a month) That’s a little less skewed towards the full time sexual predator some of you seem to think I am. And when George and Igor were here for their 3 or 4 remaining months this language probably went on now and then between the three of us with 2 of my antagonists within earshot at least some of the time. They would never even think of busting Igor for this. He’s their generation and seemed to be mutually friendly.

I feel if I was asked to stop ONCE, none of this would have happened. I also feel if my young friends had asked me to relate to them like 13 year old children I would have been happy to oblige. And my main protagonist used the F word within earshot of me three times yesterday.

The “authorities” on their side are all women and I feel they are thinking of how they would feel if this were happening to them. I didn’t even think male to male sexual harassment was even possible, except for rape or assault.

There’s only about 25 people on the shop floor. I would say I am of average age. The young men all get along fine with the other older people here. I do too. I wonder what the remaining people will think of my three antagonists when they all find out why I was let go?

-90% jimmy

workplace based on the examples you gave. I still think that despite this attempt to clean it up now. I also think you are in a lot of denial about your culpability here. If you are being "crude and profane" in a workplace you are making people uncomfortable whether you want to admit it or not. What your accusers may have engaged in is kind of irrelevant. Take responsibility for your own behavior first. And most people who make a habit of engaging in crude and profane language are not even aware all of the time when they are doing it - that's how habits work - so I find your accounting procedure kind of irrelevant also. Anyway, there is not some kind of acceptable ratio of inappropriate comments to "harassment opportunities". That is not how it works. If comments are inappropriate they are inappropriate no matter how many "harassment opportunities" there might be. Regardless of outcome if you want to learn something from this experience you need to begin by being honest about it and losing the denial. Lamenting about what might have once been acceptable before so and so left (I actually doubt that as well - I think that is part of your rationalization/denial) is not going to help you learn and move forward.

My suggestion to the OP: stop trying to rationalize it away, stop being defensive. Be contrite, admit that you see you made people uncomfortable, that was never your intent, but you're sorry for any ill will you may have caused, and it will never happen again.

That would be the MATURE way to handle this.

All these calculations show is that you're not really sorry and you think YOU are in the right.

I received a registered letter from the outside personnel people. I will be taking some sexual harassment class and my company will be educating every one here on the sexual harassment policy.

The young men and I are in avoidance with each other. Even thought I am mostly out of earshot I heard one of them use the F word seven times over the past 4 days amongst themselves and other people that work here that are my around my age.

I was in a brief ISO related spillage meeting today. My supervisor used the F word 2 times and a Company VP used the word bunghole. We were talking about handling 55 gallon drums. I don't think they got the memo. How could they - I've been forbidden to talk to anybody here about it.

The shop is about 25 people. There are those that have worked for this company for 25 years or more. And others here for 3 years or less. Most of the people here are in their fifties or older. They have been using very similar language amongst themselves for 2 or 3 decades and will soon learn that all vulgar and R rated racy language is now strictly forbidden.

The young people are completely comfortable using vulgar language between themselves. They are also used to vulgar language from the other old timers. The only time they seem to object to vulgarity is when it comes from me. And they object to it enough to try to get me fired.

I appreciate everybody's input. DU is fantastic.

-90% Jimmy

The point is moot!

My former employer decided to cease their manufacturing operations at our facility. I was the first one walked out the door March 31. I think perhaps 20 to 25 followed me out afterward.

So I have been liberated and I can now share my story with whoever I want from my former workplace! Names dates times places, etc.

One interesting point is that male-to-male sexual harassment or SH charges in general seem to be epidemic. I was speaking with a management recruiter and told him about this; "Jim that's the third time I've heard of that scenario in the last two days!"

My neighbor also told me about a guy he works with had SH charged against him from a woman. He is so emotionally devastated he is thinking of leaving the state! He feels the charges aer unjust.

The whole SH human resources mechanisms in place are designed to fix a terrible problem that should indeed be fixed. I think people competing in the modern cut throat internal competition American Workplace are learning to use it as a tool for career advancement, by eliminating the employment of their "competition". Also, it may be one of the only possibilities to enjoy any sense of empowerment in the modern corporate serf fear drenched workplace.

-90% Jimmy

you work with a lot of people, if you don't up-date your socialization skills. Your examples are totally inappropriate now days and rude at the very least. Stick to trivial conversations at work...you know...the weather, TV, entertainment magazine crap...stuff like that.

Are also the daily language of the entire shop I was in. Except for the women. I know this because I transcribed all the subsequent times my accusers used the exact same language I used when talking to them. I also went to an ISO-9000 type meeting where the same language that got me busted was used. It was used by the officer of the company that ran the meeting and also my direct supervisor and a few colleagues.

Some people here need to spend some time working in a machine shop!

-90% Jimmy