Rachel Maddow On Meet The Press: 'Roundtable On Political Discourse'

GREGORY: All right. I, I want to get to something that, that is playing out here in our conversation that, that I think is significant, the left/right divide in our politics as sharp as it's ever been. Last week on the program I interviewed Bill Clinton, and I asked him if he thought the vast right wing conspiracy was alive and well and he said, "You bet it is. It's as virulent as ever," though he thinks the demographics have changed. We have this this week, Tom Friedman writing in The New York Times that the political environment is one in which violence is possible in the way that there was in Israel before Rabin was assassinated. We have this on the House floor in the healthcare debate, Alan Grayson from Florida saying this about Republicans.

(Videotape, Tuesday)

REP. ALAN GRAYSON (D-FL): The Republican healthcare plan is this: Die quickly. That's right, the Republicans want you to die quickly if you get sick.

(End videotape)

GREGORY: We have Peggy Noonan writing in The Wall Street Journal this week that there's a level of shrillness in the debate that is not helping America. Rachel Maddow, what is the significance of the left/right divide in the country right now, and what's, what's the end game for both sides?

MS. MADDOW: I think it's--I think we always lament the sharpness of our partisan divide. I don't think there's ever been a time where we felt very "Kumbaya" for the--as, as left and right, except for bad reasons, because the country was facing real adversity. And I think that the left/right fight is healthy. I mean, I, as a, as a liberal, I want conservatives and the Republican Party to be robust and, and participating in a, in a strong argument that, that advances the country's interests. I'm not hoping for the demise of my enemies. I do think that we've got vituperative language, language on both sides, and I think it should be damned on both sides.

GREGORY: Is it a pox on both houses, Grayson and, and the congressman from South Carolina?

MS. MADDOW: No. I mean, Alan Grayson, Democrats were, "Wow, a Democrat did it." I mean, this follows on the House floor just this year Republican members of Congress saying...

GREGORY: But he's talking about the death of the uninsured Americans as a holocaust. I mean, is it...

MS. MADDOW: He apologized for the holocaust, and I pressed him to apologize for the holocaust comment on my, on my show.

GREGORY: Yeah.

MS. MADDOW: But listen, this, this year we've heard Republicans say that the Democratic plan is drop dead. We've had Republicans say that the plan is to kill senior citizens. That's all been said on the House floor. But that's so normal for Republicans...

MR. BROOKS: But this is...

MR. MURPHY: You know what the problem is, though?

MS. MADDOW: ...for Republicans right now that it hasn't attracted any attention. Nobody demanded Ginny Brown-Waite apologize.

GREGORY: David:

MR. BROOKS: Yeah, I think this is a media circus, and this is not where the country is. If you're trying to build an audience for your talk radio show of a few million people this works, this solidifies the audience. It's not where the country is. We have more independents in this country than Democrats or Republicans. Even on the Republican side we've got, you know, frankly, people I consider loons and harmful for America: Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, all these guys. They don't control the Republican Party. They were all against John McCain in South Carolina in the last primary season. They--and John McCain won the South Carolina primary. These talk radio guys couldn't control Republican voters in, in primaries in South Carolina. They have actually no power over real Americans. It's a media circus. Most Americans are where they have always been, sort of center-right independents.

GREGORY: You think there's no influence here?

MR. MURPHY: Yeah, I agree with that. What's happened is we've created--there is kind of a freak show business now of, of each side which amplifies the shrillest voices. We have one-party cable networks now, one of each, and what that does is dumbs down the debate. Everything's argument by noise, by hot language and by anecdotes, you know, so facts and more complicated debate is pushed out because it's not loud and colorful enough.

MS. MADDOW: Is Joe...

MR. MURPHY: It cheapens the debate.

MS. MADDOW: Wait, is, is Joe Scarborough, which network is he on? Which one-party network?

MR. MURPHY: He's on your liberal network.

MS. MADDOW: So he's the--how is that a one-party network?

MR. MURPHY: I would take your prime time and Fox prime time and say it is kind of a--the same dance toward the dumbing of debate.

GREGORY: E.J.:

MR. DIONNE: Let--you know, I think that the media does play a role in the wacky part of this. There's a good left/right debate to be had. Democrats have been trying to make a case that if you don't reform health care a lot of bad things will happen to people over time. That doesn't get attention. But when Grayson goes on the floor, suddenly he gets that point across because that's what the media covers. David, the price--a Democratic congressman from North Carolina told me he had a town meeting, 1,000 people in Durham, really good town meeting, real debate, but it didn't blow up. A TV producer told him before the meeting, "if your meeting doesn't blow up, it doesn't get on television." So I think if we're going to bemoan a certain kind of harshness, we got to ask ourselves the question, what gets reported? And does it take Alan Grayson to go tot he floor to do that to make a substantive point about health care?

MR. BROOKS: Yeah.

MS. MADDOW: But again, this isn't new. I mean, it's all--it's always led if it bled. It always--we've always covered conflict over stasis.

MR. MURPHY: But it's worse now.

MS. MADDOW: It may be worse now because that--we've got, we've got, you know, low stakes cable shows who are getting all the attention in prime time.

MR. MURPHY: Well...

MS. MADDOW: And you can call that dumb if you want.

MR. MURPHY: Right.

MS. MADDOW: But it happens to be that the press has always followed conflict.

GREGORY: But there, but, but...

MR. MURPHY: I don't think that's the press.

MS. MADDOW: And I don't think that means that conflict is not important.

GREGORY: Well, wait a minute. But there's--but there is--there's real influence--there is real political influence--to take you on, David--when we talk about a certain someone, Sarah Palin, whose new book is coming out, "Going Rogue: An American Life." I sat down with John McCain at the Atlantic Forum this week in Washington and asked him the following.

(Videotape, Thursday)

GREGORY: Which part of Sarah Palin's book are you most looking forward to reading?

SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R-AZ): The, the, the part I'm, I'm looking forward to most is the part where it energized our campaign and it put us--her selection put us ahead in the polls. The part I'm looking forward to least is some of the disagreements that, that took place within the campaign.

(End videotape)

GREGORY: The master of subtlety.

MR. BROOKS: I...(unintelligible).

MS. MADDOW: (Unintelligible)

GREGORY: But, but, but, but the issue of influence, whether the, the harshness of the debate becomes what controls the politics and ultimately influences who emerges to the top of a political party, which is still a question for Republicans.

MR. BROOKS: There's no evidence--Barack Obama was not evidence of that harshness, John McCain was not evidence of that harshness. The people who actually vote, even in primaries, who are pretty hard-core people, they don't go for that. So it's a, it's a margin on the edge. And if Sarah Palin is the nominee, the Republican nominee, I'll eat my hat. I'll eat this cup on the air. But she will not be, because people just don't like that style of politics.

GREGORY: Steve, Steve Schmidt, who ran the McCain campaign, also spoke at this forum, and he said the following: "I think that she has talents, but my honest view is that she would not be a winning candidate for the party in '12. And in fact, were she to be the nominee, we could have a catastrophic election result. ... In the year since the election has ended, she has done nothing to expand her appeal beyond the base."

MR. DIONNE: You know, I wish Sarah Palin well. I think it would be wonderful if the Republican Party nominated Sarah Palin the next time around. It would actually be an interesting test that we really need: Does this kind of far-right politics work? And I agree with David, it doesn't. It's not where the country is. Unfortunately for the Democrats, that means I agree the Republicans aren't going to nominate Sarah Palin.

GREGORY: Mike:

MR. DIONNE: But she'll sell a lot of books.

MR. MURPHY: No, she will sell a lot. I'm, I'm going to buy it. I'm going to wait for it to get spell-checked, but then I'm going to buy it.

GREGORY: Right. And she's number--I should point out, I mean, number one on the best-seller list for Amazon.

MR. MURPHY: Yeah. No, no, look, she has a constituency. She'll never be the nominee, I totally agree with David. I agree with Steve Schmidt, it would be actually a disaster if she was the nominee. I do wish my friend Steve felt that a year ago when a lot of people were asking John McCain to put her on the ticket. But the truth is--and I'm going to agree with David here, too--the noisiest parts of kind of the conservative media machine have far less influence than the mainstream media machine that covers the Republican world thinks they do. These radio guys can't deliver a pizza, let alone a nomination. And you can case study that out in the last election. So I--the question is whether or not our party will learn, when we have a pretty good midterm victory due to Obama's mistakes this time, that turning up the volume is not the reason that we're going to do well, I believe, in the midterms. And the fact is to get all the way, there are a lot of things we have to do to modernize conservativism to be successful.

MS. MADDOW: I, I do think that there's a little bit of reckoning that needs to happen on the right for Sarah Palin's success. I mean, she was the vice presidential nominee, she is going to sell a kazillion books and she is the biggest brand name in Republican politics still right now. And she's chose--the person who's writing her book, her last--the last person who she co-authored a book with was called "Donkey Cons" and it was co-authored with a guy who's widely believed to be and I believe him to be a white supremacist. So she's chosen Lynn Vincent, who's written a book with a white supremacist, to write her book, and she's the biggest name in Republican politics.

MR. MURPHY: Oh, but, Rachel...

MS. MADDOW: And you can dismiss her and say she's not going to be the nominee, but I do think the right needs to sort of answer for what's happened to conservatism.

MR. MURPHY: But let me just say, I am a well-documented nonfan of Sarah Palin, at least as a national politician. I don't know her personally. But that's guilt by association stuff. That's the cable stuff. That's the problem.

MS. MADDOW: But why would you--you can pick anybody to be your ghostwriter.

MR. MURPHY: Sarah Palin's a lot of things, but she's not a white supremacist. And...

MS. MADDOW: You could--no, I don't think she is. But when you can pick anybody, why would she pick somebody who's associated with the League of the South, who said that Americans are revolted by the idea of having a black sister-in-law. I mean, she--this is who she picked to write her book.

MR. MURPHY: Yeah, but there's...

MS. MADDOW: Why do you do that?

MR. MURPHY: That's sort of guilt by association stuff, which I don't know and it can--I--check it out.

MS. MADDOW: It's guilt by choice. It's guilt by choice.

GREGORY: OK.

MR. MURPHY: It is, is so, so not important to the central questions in the country right now. But that's what cable TV has become, so I...

MS. MADDOW: Sarah Palin's popularity is a central question in the Republican Party right now.

GREGORY: Quickly, E.J.

MS. MADDOW: And you can make fun of her, but it doesn't make it go away.

MR. DIONNE: Forget guilt by association. Governor Rick Perry may win a Republican primary because he talked about secession. You haven't had somebody win an election on secession since 1858.

MR. MURPHY: Yeah. E.J., I can tell you...

MR. DIONNE: There's a radical strain in the Republican Party. It's not guilt by association, it's right out there.

MR. MURPHY: Yeah, but look...

GREGORY: All right, final thought here, Mike.

MR. MURPHY: Professional political consultant, that one line which you're deducing a complete definition of Perry from, who I oppose in that primary, is not the reason he's going to win.

GREGORY: All right, we're going to have to leave it there. The debate will go on. Thank you all very much. We're going to continue our discussion online with Mike and Rachel and ask them some questions that our viewers submitted via e-mail and Twitter. Watch our MEET THE PRESS Take Two Web Extra, it's up this afternoon on our Web site, newly redesigned. Plus, look for updates from me throughout the week.