Countdown: Michael Moore PT. 2 - On Kucinich 'Only 1 Out of 435 Standing Up. How Truly Sad Is That?'

Run time: 06:53 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Ek2bd6jq8   Posted on YouTube: March 16, 2010 By YouTube Member: mmflint Views on YouTube: 179   Posted on DU: March 16, 2010 By DU Member: Hissyspit Views on DU: 7844

 
MSNBC Countdown w/ KEITH OLBERMANN - 15 March 2010:

PART ONE Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x443401

O'DONNELL: "First, Michael, you have much more experience than I do in talking to people like Natoma Cantfield and the situations that they're facing in the health care sytem. You did it in 'SiCKO.' Do you ever get used to hearing those stories?"

MOORE: "No. And in fact I hear them every day. I get dozens of emails every day, ever since 'SiCKO' came out. No. And I feel, here we are in this week of this bill being passed, and I think it will be passed, that so many people - you were just talking to Natoma there about this leukemia. She doesn't have health insurance..."

O'DONNELL: "She tries not to think about the bills. I bring up the bills to her and an understandable answer is 'I try not to think about them."

MOORE: "Yeah. Well, these bills have wrecked so many families. That's the number one cause of bankruptcy in the country. It's the number one cause - medical bills - of foreclosure in this country. And yet with this bill, the so-called reform bill, if it passes, if she had been in this predicament six months from now, she still wouldn't be able to get coverage, because the insurance companies are still going to be able to deny pre-existing conditions for the next four years. And I don't know how long you can live with leukemia, but this bill - as good as many of the things are in the bill, young people can stay on their parents insurance until 26; that's a great thing. Um, it's a death sentence for literally tens of thousands of people who are going to get sick or who had been sick, and because of the pre-existing condition. It's only going to be for children for the first four years, the pre-existing condition clause."

O'DONNELL: "And the bills, all the bills, from the start, willfully, decisively, left out 15 to 20 million people, just permanently out. No attempt to cover them. And there's some Natoma's that will be left in that group."

MOORE: "Tens of thousands of more of them will be in that group, who will die as a result. Their only crime, for dying, their only crime that they will have committed is that they were a citizen in the United States of America. If they were a few hundred miles north of here, they wouldn't die. Pure and simple. That's the only difference. They hold an American passport instead of a Canadian passport.

It's just, I just... I think, you know, what she said is true. You want to get whatever... If I drove up an old AMC Pacer here tonight and said 'here, Larry, I'm giving you a free car,' I don't think you'd say 'get the hell, get that out of here.' I think you'd say 'well, that's nice, Mike' and maybe you've got a sixteen-year-old you'd give it to.

So that's what this bill is. It's the AMC Pacer. It runs. But it really doesn't take care of the main problem which is the profit motive will still dictate everything. The insurance companies will still be in charge. Even after they, if you have insurance with them, and this is really what I had covered in this film, it was really about the people who have insurance, who, once they have it, then can't get the bill paid. Because they run you around, they're going to look for loopholes.

Even.. You know what this bill says if they deny you coverage? Let's say they actually just say go ahead and say deny you because of a pre-existing condition, the fine is $100 a day. Per individual you have denied. So just think about that. The insurance company is going 'So, for a year, that would 36,500 dollars, but the operation is going to cost $100,000. You know what? I think we'll take the fine.'"

O'DONNELL: "The only eloquent voice I have heard in opposition, in actual political voting opposition to this bill, is from Dennis Kucinich, where the President went to his district today, to try to change his mind. Dennis Kucinich criticism coming from the left. Point by point, knocking down Democratic talking points. What would you say to Congressman Kucinich in the vote that he faces at this point?"

MOORE: "Thank you. Thank you. One vote out of 435 standing up for the 300 million. How truly sad is that?"

O'DONNELL: "When the vote comes, if he's the decisive vote, would you tell him to go practical in the end, or...?"

MOORE: "No. No, I would not. No. If I were a member of congress, I think what I do is I would say 'I might vote for it, if, President Obama, you'll stand in front of the cameras and tell the American people that this doesn't really cover pre-existing conditions for the next four years. And the insurance companies are still going to get to make outrageous profits and they are going to be able to deny people care once they have insurance. Tell the people the truth of these things. And then we'll vote for those things that are great about the bill.

I think, listen, I think having this discussion on the day after Keith's dad passed away, Keith has been so eloquent about this issue. He's said on the air that he's going to commit an act of civil disobedience. He will not participate in this so-called universal health care, which it isn't."

O'DONNELL: "Well, the individual mandate ordering people to purchase. And President Obama said during the campaign 'they don't need to be ordered to purchase insurance, they need to be helped to get insurance."

MOORE: "I just want to say... thank you for telling people to be sure and, you know, the family said in lieu of flowers to write a check to the National Association of Free Clinics, which Keith is going to do. I heard that backstage and I happened to have my checkbook with me, so I'd like to write the first check and encourage everyone who is watching to please write your check and send it to the National Association of Free Clinics... So, you can go to my website and they'll have an address up there. And thank god for his mom and his dad. They obviously did something right. We're fortunate to have someone like him out there fighting that battle..."

MORE

it IS truly sad ..
that DK is the ONLY 1 with guts & integrity
on hcr & SO many issues..
but thank GOD, for DK.

I emailed MM to thank HIM, for giving DK a thank you..
These are extremely bizarre times.. :(

..............Kucinich (and other liberals) one day, and the next is a no good so & so. I get pissed off about a lot of things, but today is my day to be pissed off at these "fair weather fucking so called liberals". I hope that this "reform" is defeated. Pass stand alone legislation for rescission, pre-existing conditions, lifetime caps and finally take away their anti-trust provision.

Long story short, Moore either doesn't know about, or has forgotten about the temporary high risk pool for people with pre-existing conditions that goes into effect no later than 90 days after the HCR bill is signed into law.

People with pre-existing conditions who haven't had insurance from six months from the time they apply would be eligible (so, around June this year, Natoma would eligible, which would be just around the deadline for the high risk pool to have been created.) The pool is not limited to children.

Premiums for the high risk pool will be subsidized and it will be in effect until the Exchange is up in 2014.

The provision outlining this starts on page 45 of the Senate bill. There's also a similar provision in the House bill.

I'm really surprised O'Donnell didn't know about this either.

And that's what Michael Moore said . . .

That's an example of something which should be done immediately -- not later!!

Further, this is a digusting UNEQUAL treatment of citizens --

In fact, INCOME weighed -- !!! Risks weighed!! That's not UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE . . . !!!

That's not what every other nation does!!

Citizens have to be treated equally --

MEDICARE FOR ALL, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT -- NOW!!!

NOW!!!

NOW!!!

The high risk pool was created for those in her circumstances.

........to institutionalize privatization into our healthcare system? Because you do know that is what will happen. There will never be Medicare for all, matter of fact with the Bush Advantage plan you see the beginning of privatizing Medicare. You can pass stand alone legislation to correct the bullshit the insurance companies are doing now.

So why not emulate it?

it would not have mattered what system we copied it would have been an improvement - but noooooo we had to stick with the for profit middle man model because large campaign contributions are more important that access to care.

or in our case state by state, if we have a start.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_state-based_single_payer_s.html

......it state by state. People don't quite understand this, the bill will institutionalize privatization into the system that will be govt controlled. How in the fuck will you get Medicare for all? You will never get a single payer type system past the more strongly embedded insurance companies. Jesusfuckingchrist, pass stand alone legislation to outlaw rescission, pre-existing conditions, and "caps" on coverage. Then when the country finally gets pissed off enough we'll get Medicare for all. This is not fucking reform.

I disagree completely.

............IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE BILL.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_state-based_single_payer_s.html

The state-based single payer strategy

"Quite frankly," Sen. Bernie Sanders said today, "we don't have the votes for single payer." That's not much of a surprise, but Sanders did outline another strategy for single payer that some liberals might want to think about. "Right now," he explained, "we have language in the bill that says that states that want to go forward with single payer can do that." He's talking about the Waiver for State Innovation, which allows states to go their own way if they have a plan that will achieve the goals of the bill at a lower cost. You could imagine a state -- say, California, where the legislature has passed single-payer bills before only to see them vetoed by the governor -- using that provision to implement a single-payer system.

More at the link above.

Or never if the bill doesn't pass.

..........provision YOU say is in the bill have a goddamn thing to do with pre-existing conditions and 90 days? You are extremely confused. Please SHOW in the Senate version (because that's the version that is being voted on) where the states can start their own single payer version of healthcare that is part of the National law. Already some states have their own plan if that is what you are getting at, ie Hawaii & Mass. I think your "excitement" over getting this piece of dog shit passed has affected your critical thinking.

1. The Senate version is not being voted on.
2. Sanders has inserted a state wide single payer plan.

YOU need to do more research before suggesting I need better thinking skills. Further, stop the childish swearing. It's not becoming of anyone who wishes to be taken seriously.

..........say anything about a provision. I have heard Sanders before trying to get an amendment into the bill, but don't believe it is in the bill. Your #1, then what the fuck are they voting on? St Paddy's day drinks?

...........

.......where the fuck did that come from when we were discussing a provision on starting a state single payer? I still don't understand what the fuck you were talking about in that post.

with your abusive ass.

Cheers.

but it is in the Senate bill, hopefully it will survive. But, frankly, I don't know how the state will be able to do this. Even the ones who want to are so strapped for cash they're cutting services of all kinds now.

Given this economy, I don't see how state by state will be the answer.

...............It was taken out of the bill by Pelosi.

You hear so little about the Dutch system. How much do they pay in taxes? I hear a lot about the Canadian system.

And they said that we don't have anyone who knows what they are talking about at DU!

*Humph*

Take that, Huffington Post!!!

Like health care in every other nation -- ???

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE?

yes.

That's not what we need -- we need health care for everyone, equally . . .

not health care for the poor and health care for the rest of us!!

Disgusting . . . plus a big "if" in her life!!

to be able to pay the exorbitant costs of a high risk pool plan?

High risk pool plans are plans insurance companies put people THEY DON'T WANT TO COVER. And the point of them is to charge so much that the person will give up and drop the policy. They tend to have very high deductibles and co-pays and wiggle room to get out of counting bills toward the deductible. They're so expensive that you end up not being able to see a doctor because you can't afford the out of pocket expense. How exactly does that help?

under the new plan.

and then the IRS would be looking over her shoulder. This whole thing stinks.

access to live saving treatment. The IRS would no more be looking over her shoulder than they do already.

I don't want the government pouring all over my financial records just so I can get health care. It should be a universal right.

That's more Repug spin within this bill!!

How much sicker will she get in 90 days? And then all the people who are sick who have to wait 6 months. Whoppeee!! Isn't that grand?

I'm just brimming over with anger, I mean, enthusiasm that a few people might make it.

There should be no compromising on healthcare. Why should we have to settle or make do with this?
What if, God forbid, the republicans are in office again and we never get back to this subject again
to make improvements? The current offer is bullshit compared to the rest of the country.

They absolutely will be back in power, hell they're in power now. Thats why we have this crap bill.

Repugism is coming from within the Democratic Party, as well --

Corporatism has infected both parties -- DLC poison!!

They made insurance unaffordable for people who were sick, and they'll keep on doing it.

High risk pools are a scam. If you don't believe me, I've got some insurance to sell you.

Edited to add - I don't think the risk pool is perfectly constructed in terms of cost, but it will be available before 2014 - with subsidies and out-of-pocket caps according to the year involved. If I get into dire circumstances, I'd like to have that option available, rather than, let's face it, nothing, no help, no options at all.

When our plant, LTV Steal shut down, the Steelworkers medical was canceled the next day. I worked on the railroad, which has a different set of laws governing shutdowns. They had to set up a trust fund to cover our medical insurance until it ran out.

They changed carriers a few times. We went from paying "0" to paying $200+ per month to paying $700 per month, and then back to $0 per month. When it jumped to $700 per month, a friend of mine wanted to keep the coverage he had to keep Kaiser. Which cost him $600 per month.

He qualified for the Health Care Tax Credit, which would pay 65% of his premiums, because he was over 55, and receiving a PBGC reduced pension. And it had to be an IRS approved plan. For the EXACT same coverage, the approved policy was $1600 per month (numbers rounded). He now mailed in $650 per month to the IRS, who made up the difference, and sent in the other 65%. It cost him MORE for the federally subsidized plan than it did before.

I know that this scam is going to look just like that.

Kill it!

But that aside, as this is part of a larger package of reform, and is administered with newer restrictions on providers, I somehow doubt this will look like that.

But I see you're on the side of kill bill, so I understand we're not going to change each other's minds on anything.

have you seen the latest numbers on Pfizer's fines?

And they weren't caught because of any regulations or anything the government did --

they finally were brought to some justice because of whistleblowers!!

And -- they will NOT be barred from any future participation in government plans!!

No difference for insurance companies -- Obama continues to tell us of their "evils"

as though the public didn't already know.

Obama/Rahma are not acting for the public -- they are representing the interests of

large corporations!!

You have to be really naive to buy into any of this!!

Keep telling that story --

shocking and sad, but the public -- and people here at DU have to wake up!!

and I find the cheering on of "subsidies" - which go directly into the vampire insurers pockets - a travesty.

Not to mention that when you're sick, dealing with the insurance co is like having a second deadly illness.

against the faked 2000 election sham!!

And, one little swerve in there showed me why O'Donnell doesn't thrill me --

a kind of framing. But MM corrected it.

Meanwhile, no one talks about how this is the very opposite of UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE,

EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

This is a class based system -- INCOME weighed -- a good ole Repug gimmick --

And beyond that, FORCING the poor to negotiate with insurance companies!!

We need to get insurance companies and "for profits" out of the picture -- not cement

them into it!!!

MEDICARE FOR ALL --

:(

He's still a solid "NO" vote. Regardless of what people say about him wavering and such.

How often is that?

...vampires and their supporters, of which, many it seems inhabit this discussion board. We could have fair and equitable healthcare for all. Lots of other countries do it. Our problem is that in the corporate money-washed US of A, anything that takes money out of the corporate coffers is considered bad medicine. Fact: we don't need "for profit" healthcare insurance. It serves no real purpose--other than skimming funds off of the top of the American healthcare system to make some rich persons richer. Period. That's what for profit means. For fucking profit. For profit healthcare insurance contributes NOTHING. It takes. And takes. And takes.

And to all of you good citizens that think a piece-of-shit plan that leaves millions right where they started--with little to no healthcare--is a good idea, take a good, long look in the mirror. That could be you. It could be your mother having to make a decision whether to eat or buy her medication. It could be your child turned down for a life-saving treatment because of "pre-existing condition." It could your wife denied treatment for breast cancer. It could be you.

The greatest tragedy in this country is that we've lost the capacity for empathy.

The question is whether his loudmouth persona helps him (the whole baseball cap typical American thing) or hurts him (his abrasiveness gives a weapon to this opponents)

An uppity liberal who is not ashamed of it, oh noes! Let's all get very "concerned" right about now... We all know god kills a kitten any time a liberal hurts the feelings of the reactionary asshole section of our population.

LOL So transparent some times....

self-righteousness will get you nowhere

I assume inferring aggressiveness from a "loud mouth" characterization was too much of a stretch from my part, right? I am sure you meant it as a complement, right? wink-wink

Because Michael Moore's cared way, way back, when it wasn't cool to care about the United States, and who who the hell cared about Flint, Michigan, was in question. I recall MM from the days of "Roger and Me", and hearing other people say, "why is he bringing up off of this?"

He's been bringing it up because he cares. I'll take his "big mouth" just fine.

I've never perceived him as abrasive, merely direct-- but I suppose many people may conflate the two...

regardless, I imagine we all see what we want to in other people more often than not...

put off by his 'style'. Truth trumps 'style' every time when people don't have an agenda other than wanting to understand what is going on.

She has a family to think of and the majority of Americans are not political operatives, they are ordinary people.

It is a travest of justice that Congress has not passed a separate law forbidding the refusal to treat sick people by so-called Health Care Corps. Such a law should stand alone, with no loop-holes.

They have been entrusted, tragically, with the health of the American people and have made a fortune doing so. For years they have allowed people to die by refusing to pay for their treatment. I am talking about people WITH coverage. That is at the very least, criminally negligent manslaughter.

What other business is allowed to sell a product that if it doesn't work, that is deliberately constructed NOT to work for the sake of profits and will result in the deaths of those who buy it, without any consequences? It is shocking to see people try to defend this.

The excuses that are being given for this deadly greed explains why they get away with it. I don't blame them half as much as I blame those who attempt to excuse it.

And it is beyond unbelievable to see Democrats supporting a bill that discriminates against the elderly and the poor and that forces people to jump through all these bureaucratic loops when they are sick in order to try to get the treatment they need.

Thank you, Dennis! But just one beef with MM. Dennis is NOT the only one who will not vote for this bill. He is the most effective voice, which is why he is being targeted, as MM himself was after making his movie 'Sicko'.

Wendall Potter confirmed that the Insurance Ind. spent millions to 'go after' Michael Moore. Reading some comments from a few supposed Democrats it looks like it was money well spent.

Now, I am going to go call Kucinich's office to thank him for his courage and integrity.

add in Krugman's analysis that "This is a reasonable, responsible plan. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise." That anyone would include Kucinich at this point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x219252

... sure, they will cover that cancer treatment, but you will have to pay a 10 fold increase in premium. Joy!

Is it so hard to advocate a proper reform? Or that would bee too much of a "change" for the "change and hope" brigade?

...............and are outright thugs. Liberals need to show some balls and stand up and FIGHT BACK. Moore, Maddow, Nader, Olberman and a few others do just that and we need a lot more, ESPECIALLY in Congress.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

where he is wrong. Otherwise you are just a disruptor.

Thank you Congressman Kucinich, thank you.:patriot:

which are the same reasons he's not.

Big contrast to the president's faux-populist, misleading speech early in the day.

not based on the compassion or lack of it from insurance companies --

not based on groceries or food for those who have lost jobs or who have

had lost their houses!

Or any other condition --

it has to be UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE -- no INCOME testing -- no forcing people

to deal with private corporations!!!

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT !!

I saw Michael last night and I too thank him for saying what needs to be said, especially about Dennis standing up for us.

There's one paragraph from the interview that sums things up best:
"But it really doesn't take care of the main problem which is the profit motive will still dictate everything. The insurance companies will still be in charge. Even after they, if you have insurance with them, and this is really what I had covered in this film, it was really about the people who have insurance, who, once they have it, then can't get the bill paid. Because they run you around, they're going to look for loopholes."


The Senate bill which they are now trying to coerce the House to pass, is all about MANDATING PROFITS FOR THE INSURANCE CORPORATIONS. That is the main function of the bill, not health care reform. It was written by lobbyists for the industry and rubber stamped by the Business Roundtable, who has been influence Obama's White House from day one.


Do you really think they will get a reconciliation bill passed by this corporate toadying Senate to "fix" the bill later? A bill that once it is passed, will give the health insurance industry 30 million more mandated victims, more power, more money -- to buy even more influence in Washington?


Not only do I not believe they will "fix" the bill later, I think the Republicans will gain control again in November and then gut the subsidies to help pay for your mandated insurance. Then what will you do if you cannot afford the high premiums? Pay fines but go without health insurance? Go to jail???


You know why Democrats have screwed up health care reform so badly? It's because they are trying to serve their corporate masters while at the same time trying to convince us they are acting on our behalf. It's true what they say about not being able to serve 2 masters..........

We have a winnah! That's CORRECTOMUNDO! It's all about making more profits for the insurance companies. The Cons are only feigning their disagreement with the bill, because THERE'S A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE, and they don't like that. They will continue to attempt to destroy him any way they can. Just like they did to Clinton!

However, I don't believe that the Cons will gain total control in November. The Dems will lose a few seats, but not as many as the MSM is reporting. Heck they are saying how "so many Dems are retiring." Have they looked and seen how many CONS are retiring? I think it's like twice as many as Dems! But nooooo, the MSM only reporting against the left, as they always do.

Especially the last paragraph. Thank you.

And thank you Dennis! Like Keith, I will engage in civil disobedience -- I will not be forced to pay money to some shit health insurance company.

Americans need REAL heathcare -- not crap health insurance.

They need to come to the understanding that it is written down for all to see. Mike knows that. Look it up.

"This is a reasonable, responsible plan. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise." -Nobel economist Paul Krugman on HCR http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12krugman.html

I hear people say all the time that they do have insurance, but the premium is $1,300 a month, the deductible is $5,000 a year. Or something similar. Is this going to help these people? Not much if at all unless I'm missing something.

What Michael said about having a death sentence because you live in the USA rather than Canada should hit home for every one. All along we hear about how lucky we are to live in the United States, and most of us have felt like that most of our lives. There are a lot of people right now who would be a lot better off in Canada, or Denmark, or even Costa Rica than here. And that's sad and this whole discussion will never be heard on the nightly news.

We're all victims, at least the non ultra haves, of a big scam shell game. Chris Hedges is correct IMHO, our best bet, and it won't be quick or easy, is to work hard to establish a third party to challenge the status quo. Right now the Green Party has the best early foothold and they represent my values so much more than the democrats or the insane party (republicans). For so long now the best thing about the democrats is that they're better than the republicans, and being better than the republicans is the lowest bar ever at this point.

Your names are being taken! We know who you are! We know how you have been bashing the ONE congress critter who consistently works for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations. You cannot hide. We know that you have infiltrated this place, and we know what you have all been attempting to do.

Thanks for standing up for DK Mike! As always, a man of THE TRUTH!

..."standing up for the 300 million." The vast majority of Dems are somehow pathetic sell-outs. Man, people sure think funny. The fewer people who agree with something, the braver it is--not the more likely to be wrong it is.

When someone says "all the bad people are against me" here is a clue. It might not be "all" and they might not be "bad." One grandstanding person's opinion is not always better than the considered opinions of hundreds. I know it's counter-intuitive.

but only a few have genuine courage, on either side of the political spectrum. Altogether I think the Democratic leadership has coped well with the cards they've been dealt.

I guess MM is a sellout now too huh :sarcasm:

Bless you Michael and Dennis!

He'd rather be right than actually do something to help people. He makes me sick.

:eyes:

Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that statement is?

you should have the decency to give some proof of your accusations.

conclude you hate the middle class. Are you a DLC sympathizer?

A lot of us feel that way.

Talking about obesity in this country.

OMG! I laughed until I cried.

Are you saying someone who weighs 400 pounds should have no opinion on obesity? Are you saying the man who investigated and directed 'SiCKO' doesn't no anything about the state of health care in the U.S.? Are you saying you have any knowledge of why Moore personally has a weight problem? Do you really know that he weighs 400 pounds (he has clearly lost weight recently)?

Nice job Dennis. I guess with a rich wife and a sure district, it is easy to sell people out. I wish I never heard of him.