Thom Hartmann: It's a bigger nuclear disaster then you think!

Run time: 08:39 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRRoFdxNdQg   Posted on YouTube: March 15, 2011 By YouTube Member: thomhartmann Views on YouTube: 252   Posted on DU: March 16, 2011 By DU Member: Skip_In_Boulder Views on DU: 7474

 
This is really a very concerning interview.

It is so matter of fact and thus even much more terrifying.

if I want to hear it .. :scared:

eek

K and R

and just laying out the facts for what they are. I would rather have that and know what we might be up against than all the fluff and the "Oh the place just blew up, well that's really not a big problem" that has been coming out of the MSM.

I might not sleep well tonight.

:scared: :wow:

Thank god I am on blood pressure meds.

Here is a site for time and weather in Japan...I am trying to find a city on that site that is close to the reactors, to watch the wind direction.

Sendai???

http://www.worldtimeserver.com/weather_in_JP.aspx?forecastid=JAXX0104

As I understand it, at least for the Japanese people, if it rains that can make things a lot worse for them.

I heard this interview about 1:00 pm today (MDST) and have been charged since. But on the other hand I would rather have accurate information so I can evaluate what I might be up against rather than fluff which the MSM has been putting a lot of that out.

And then can find an online tv station ( usually) or other news source, in English, of the country.

MSM? Stopped watching that a long time ago.

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...

This is getting to real.

I am glad I am 57 now.

"really a nightmare unfolding as we speak that will be changing moment to moment."

HOLY SHIT1 This is not what I'm wanting to hear, esp. living in Oregon.

or on accurate information. I would rather have bad information if it was truth, than untruths that made me feel safe. However, this is still not a done deal but what I take away from it is that it needs to be watched very closely.

What "untruths" are you referring to in your first response to my post?

there has been a lot of information put out by the Japanese government, and posiable our government as well, that is minimizing the seriousness of the events that are transpiring. They are putting out untruths that things are not as bad as they are which puts people at risk of not making fully informed decisions as to how to protect themselves.

That's all, too make good decisions one has to have accurate information, no matter how bad it may be, and I just don't think that fully truthful information is being put forth here.

:toast:

:toast:

If it's as bad as many suspect it is, there's no way to evacuate tens of millions in time. If government officials admitted it was this bad, it would probably create absolute chaos. People probably ought to read between the lines and get the hell of the island. My heart goes out to our brothers and sisters who don't know the danger or do not have the means to avoid it.

Trying to figure out how long it would take me to convince all of my kids and grandkids, friends and loved ones, to start driving EAST...



:scared:

but that was several days ago too.

I just saw that the EPA has sent a number of mobil radiation detection units to West Coast to monitor the situation; all the while also downplaying the move, saying they didn't expect to find particularly dangerous radiation levels, just routine, yadda, yadda.

Will it be too late to go? Sounds to me like there may be "nowhere to run"...

Trying to imagine what it would look like if Seattle evacuated...

We have a cabin in Eastern WA, in the mountians, but I don't even know if "up" would be better. Montana is calling my name... hahahaa

Fear is no fun, here.

about the fear thing. we gotta keep our sense of humor, I mean what a fucking cosmic joke this would be as a way for our species to exit the scene.

I also hear you about where to go. I'd probably just stay in Portland, is my gut feeling. I"ve had a very good life, retired, at peace with myself, etc.

maybe that guy on Thom Hartman was just a random nut-job who didn't really know his stuff?
I'd love to think so, but that feels like grasping at straws.

to do a mad dash for somewhere, if I could convince all the kids and grandkids to go too. hahaha I am still a dreamer. Montana and Log Cabin sounds really nice at this point. Even Upstate New York.. Now that would be nice, no?

What is so wrong with a cross country Road Trip. I think it sounds exiting.

who I was going to fly out to West Coast so we could visit, but now I'm thinking I might just fly to Maine instead. .. except I do have the same issues as you ... 3 sons, 2 daughters, mom, brother, a number of friends & lovers, all live here. Moment to moment all these decisions will be made one way or the other. be well, hope the Montana thing works out for you and your clan.

:hi:

Ten Days.

The ten day myth has been shot to pieces on many myth busting sites on the internet.

24 to 36 hours is more like it.

After you have studied a good map of wind patterns.
At some point soon, in the next couple days, those roads east are going to be clogged.

Talk about "making sacrifices..."

I hope it wasn't Thom Hartmann or his staff who titled this video, with "THEN" rather than "THAN.

or... then than.

K and R

Rachel Maddow - Spent Nuclear Rods segment - Tuesday, March 15th
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x563791

Great segment with video of spent rod pool, and diagram of where they are located in the buildings.

But I have heard 2 or 3 people throughout the day talking about this spent fuel rod thing having a high probability too it. I hope they are all wrong but still people need to be aware of it.

which I have now done and her guy seems to agree with what Thom's guy is saying.

I just cant believe this is happening. I guess I can kick and rec so other can view it :)

He is going to give the worse case scenario and not necessarily the most likely outcome. I have seen a lot of other experts interviewed that said it would be less deadly than Chernobyl. So who is right?

And I for one hope he is. But my gut level reaction is that we are not getting fully accurate information from our governments. There is also the thing that I have heard 2 or 3 people today take this same type of position.

Watch this...

Rachel Maddow - Spent Nuclear Rods segment - Tuesday, March 15th
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x563791

They just evacuated hundreds of workers. As one of the commentators stated, these people weren't sitting around playing poker. There's no stopping this now.

4 have had explosions that HAD to have affected the spent fuel rod pools, 2 pools are admittedly boiling over.

No one was prepared for a 9 point earthquake.
No one seems to thought about a 7 point nuke catastrophe, either.

The information out there is all over the place. Hard to know who to believe. On Facebook there are a bunch of friends acting like it's no big deal and the press is over reacting. There are other friends acting like it's the end of the world. I place it someplace in the middle probably leaning more toward the very bad side. Both extremes are starting to irritate me.

turned out to be millions and the worst oil spill in history. So, you go right ahead and take that optimistic calculation. Its spin.

This can't be measured against any other incident. It's different. For many reasons. There are six compromised reactors and six spent fuel rod pools uncovered. It's on a very small island nation with millions of people nearby. The wind can take that radiation wherever it wants. The US is a longshot, but what about the rest of Japan? Korea? China? Maybe the West Coast.

It has to be watched carefully, because it is unprecedented. No one knows for sure what will be the final outcome.

Ignore the spin, because it might be your ass that gets saved by doing so.

My heart is with the Japanese people right now.

Damn the bastards who built these things. Damn them.

becoming increasingly clear that this disaster can not be stopped or controlled and it is going global. Radioactive contamination is entering the air by the minute. The longer it goes on the greater the likelihood that at least the northern hemisphere, if not the globe, will be affected.

with each passing hour. I think we are kind of down to hoping for the best. But then again, like a good friend of mine use to say, "hope is not a plan."

Here's a site that lists the Nuclear Power plants by state. Having 3 in Florida who they are touting as "safe" makes me extremely nervous. That's what they told the Japanese people.

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/environm/no_nukes/nukelist1.htm

This sounds really bad, but I'm wondering about something no one has mentioned.

They used to do atmospheric nuke tests. There were dozens of nukes exploded in open air during the 1950s and 1960s, until the 1963 (?) test ban treaty. Didn't those flood the world with lots of radiation & fallout? Was it really a disastrous time? ... Or is the rise in cancer rates since then the actual effect/danger?

Is the amount of radiation & fallout from these 6 reactors worse than one nuke test? What was the cumulative effect over the dozen+ years there were nuke tests?

Lots of questions, and fortunately we have a Democratic government in power now that won't lie to us. :sarcasm:

...than the entire nuclear test program over it's entire life time.

Respiratory disease, just from coal alone, alone kills about as many people every single year as the anti-nuke crowd claims for Chernobyl over the next 50 odd years.

In normal everyday operation a coal fired power plant's, radiological emissions in the ash and smoke stack exhaust is roughly equivalent to an ongoing 24/7/365 catagory 3 or 4 nuclear incident and the oldest and dirtiest plants might well approach level 5, every single day of their operational life.

Interesting. I've read just the opposite. Nuclear plants kill so many more people than coal plants that it's amazing. Nuclear plants kill millions every year. In normal everyday operation a nuclear power plant's radiological emissions is roughly equivalent to an ongoing 24/7/365 continuous x-rays from the most powerful x-ray machine right next to a body.

Agast! What am I to believe? The "Experts" who tell me it's safe? Or the people with cancer and children with cancer? They have their experts too... and proof.

Black lung from the coal dust!

And who cares that Cesium 137 can be in the environment for 300 years or so, before it degrades even remotely enough to be considered safe. It cannot hurt us because we cannot see it! (Sarcasm intended.)

Amazing all the tripe the nuclear industry and its many trolls are feeding us.

And NBC/MSNBC is owned by General Electric, so take everything that you hear and see them report with a grain of non-irradiated salt.

And GE's goons along with Bush Administration officials, they went over to the Fukushima district in 2006. They ssw to it that the mayor there, Mr Sato, was put out of office, ostensibly on account of his accepting bribes. (Charges were later found to be totally false.)

The poor man was replaced by a pro-nuclear guy, who made it possible for the nuclear forces to prevail, even in the face4 of almost overwhelming opposition from the citizens.

The citizens of Fukushima, back in 2006, wanted that Dump Of a GE Plant to be dismantled, as it had design flaws and was almost 35 years old.

But the Powers that Be got their way. And the rest is history.

The more corporations are intertwined into that countries government the less I believe that countries "official" word on anything!

As one can easily recognize in our own country....corporations (monopolies = collusion & corruption, with lack of oversight & regulations) own this country's politicians with their incredible amount of money and wealth so who would ever believe a word offered by the republican corporate fascist who control the United States of America?

...minute. These are in fact Presurised Water Reactors. Not Boiling Water Reactors. The exact opposite of what was said just before the 1 minute mark.

As for some of the other stuff I've seen posted here as gospel fact, it beats hands down the worst disingenuities that the creationists, teabaggers, anti-vaxers and their ilk have ever dared utter. "The entire Pacific Ocean will be sterilised." is a particularly good one. "Most of Japan will become uninhabitable." is another.

Yes I am absolutely certain that the operators and officials are downplaying some aspects of the incident, but there is only so far they can go before running head to head with a whole bunch of workers who know how to read their own radiation dosiometers. And the only reason that the jornalists on the spot have NOT been waving the geiger counters they almost certainly have in their possession, is that they have had absolutely nothing to wave them at.

So instead the media point their cameras at crowds of people being dilligently processed with every possible precaution and concern for their safety and solemnly report "Officials say there is no cause for alarm."


Hands down the biggest liars here are those who are absolutely determined to use this incident to achieve their end of the abolishion of nuclear energy by any means necessary, fair or foul.

That is the only way to create energy.

Why not find an encyclopedia, say, like Britannica, or even Wiki this issue?

The difference is where the "boiling" takes place.

In a BWR live steam is produced directly from the water in the primary coolant loop.

In a pressurised water reactor, the water is kept under such high pressure that it is unable to boil under normal operating conditions. The heat from this water is transfered through a heat exchanger to a water in a seconday coolant loop. It is this water which becomes live steam to drive the turbines.

It looks like six of one half dozen of the other, with respects to this particular incident. A BWR if it survived the initial earthquake takes a lot less time to stabilise. However, because they are physically less robust than a PWR, there's a fair chance the initial earthquake could have compromised the reactor at the outset rendering everything since moot. Worst case, since BWRs also rely on active control systems to shut the reactor down in an emergency, it is possible, if they suffer sufficient damage fast enough, that a BWR will not shut down at all.

A PWR is far more likely to survive a megaquake physically intact, simply due to its increased physical robustness. And gravity alone drives the emergency shutdown mechanism. However, it requires active cooling over an extended period (1-3 years for a fully assembled and fueled reactor core). The backup cooling systems did in fact work correctly. It, and its backups were knocked out by the Tsunami that followed the quake.

What ultimately signed the death warrant for this situation was TOO BLOODY MUCH effort to prevent any sort of radiation release for far too long. Too much effort to meet impossible public and bureaucratic demands for zero point zero (and even in some circumstancesed efectively negative) emissions.

If steam had been bled off earlier, it would have taken far less effort to keep water up covering the fuel assemblies, which in turn would have prevented many of the complications we've been seeing.

Downside: That steam in its first few minutes IS highly radioactive, but only for those first few minutes after release. It is this which caused the brief intense (thousandfold) spikes in radiation measured inside the plant, and the short term rises above background in the surrounding and downwind areas.

The chosen solution was to vent into the outermost containment building, and giving the steam a little time to "cool off" radiologically speaking before releasing it into the atmosphere. They did this knowing the risk was a buildup of hydrogen and the potential for an explosion. They also did it, knowing that by containing the released steam they were limiting the amount of steam that they could release and the rate at which they could release it, which in turn reduced the benefit which could be had from the release.

A simple deliberate release of dirty steam into the atmosphere much earlier in the timeline could have avoided much of what has now come to pass, including the uncontrolled release of an even greater amount of radiatoactive material, in far more radiotoxic forms. Furthermore if they had been able to release the steam for an extended period, that release would have had a direct cooling effect in its own right through adiabatic effects.

So why wasn't it done? Why did it take a direct prime ministerial order to give the release to peform even a contained venting operation? The likeliest answer, since deliberately venting steam would have offered the best possible avenue for the operators to keep the reactors sufficiently undamaged physically to restart them at a later date, is that those who had the power to make such a decision believed (quite correctly in my opinion) that public sentiment would not countenance a DELIBERATE release of radiation into the environment, no matter how short lived it might be.

Instead of rationally accepting a known hazard of known duration - that would be a handful of chest x-rays per 24/hr period for the idiots waving placards at the outer gates, decreasing to effectively zero at the edge of the exclusion zone and obviously greater levels still, but comensurately better protection for the workers on site. Public sentiment and oposition to any form of deliberate release forced the operators to roll a set of dice they knew to be loaded against. Now they've come up craps, the public is outraged that the operators didn't do enough. These reactors have taken more abuse than they were ever anticipated to (starting with the magnitude of the earthquake), held up far longer and far better than anyone could reasonably expect given the abuse they have sustained. AND STILL IT IS NOT ENOUGH?

It may well be possible that these reactors were doomed even if drastic action had been taken. However, it is almost certain that catering to public sentiment made what has happened absolutely inevitable, when it came ON TOP OF the amount of damage sustained in the earthquake and the tsunami that followed.

Because that sentiment took "drastic action" completely "off the table", permissible actions were not enough to prevent further crisis.

But the solution is obvious.

They should lower a containment dome over the leak.
If that doesn’t work they can try pumping “junk” and mud into the leak.
If that doesn’t work go for drilling a relief well

I was hopeful that they'd work out their problems and get this under control... Not looking good... Damn.

"The pools have started to boil . . . exposed the fuel . . . it generates hydrogen and finds an ignition source eventually."