Nobody cares what you think

:D I'm going to be harsh here but stay with me. We're all guilty of this, I think.

The Edwards hairmansion debates, the death of Fallwell, the war funding controversy, and now Sheehan's departure from the public antiwar campaign--all of these things are making me increasingly depressed about DU in general. I understand these emotional, knee-jerk responses and that they come from people who are honestly upset, but that doesn't mean they are at all productive or that I have to like them.

Basically my problem with a lot of these reactions is they are irrational responses to things that either can't change or don't really matter. Yes, DU could primarily be a place for people to rant and rave and describe their deeply-held "honest" feelings about issues, but is that the best DU can offer? Is that what you want DU to be?

Anonymous opinions without action to back them up might seem to be the creed of every message board in existence, but does it have to be this way? How many of these worthless debates on what light bulbs Edwards uses or why Pelosi is a "corporate whore" or why we can't say mean things about Fallwell matter? At all? To anyone?

My ideal DU isn't one wherein Will Pitt posts an emotional thread about emotional reactions to an emotional issue, receives 237 recs, and then leaves DU for the umpteenth time. While such things may seem important to you as part of the DU community, to anyone else they just seem like worthless insular drama. I'd prefer action--I'd prefer reasonable attempts to change what we can and to figure out how to influence what we can't change, and I;d prefer fewer time-wasting manifestos based on wishful thinking and fairy-tale ideals.

Bitching and moaning about political figures who are in office, the kind of house or hair someone has, the death of a controversial asshole or the retirement of a public figure is like ranting and and raving about having a seven of clubs because you wish you had an ace of diamonds. The seven isn't affected by your holy indignation, and the ace won't magically appear by virtue of your seven paragraph thread of deep, honestly expressed feelings. Complaining about your dealt cards doesn't improve them, and it can distract you from playing them in the best way possible.

Recognize what you can't change. Just playacting as an important commentator or creating a roster of heroes and villains is worthless. Use your resources to influence what happens -based- on your opinions, don't just ride along with whatever is tops on the Sunday shows and try to feel important because you -have- an opinion. Real change takes years of study and work for a cause, not emotional words on a message board saying you support it.

We've got this Congress, we've got this president, we've got this press corps. We may wish as hard as we can we didn't, but until we stop wishing things were different and start working with what he have to change it for the better, I think a lot of the threads with the most posts and views, while perhaps emotionally fulfilling, are in general a waste of time.

Post your opinions all you want, cast yourself as an important player in your imagined political drama in which just thinking something hard enough will bring results if you like--I don't care. But shouldn't you do more? Isn't there more productive ways to use a huge political message board? Should DU have more threads that say "I'm through with the Democrats!! They betrayed me for the last time!!!" or threads that realize that we're stuck with this Congress and discuss how to make the best use of it we can?

This was long and silly, but I just want less emotion and more reasonable thinking. Someone without emotions is inhuman, but someone with only emotions will never get anything done.

:applause:

:P

:applause:

and that's what it's all about. I've been in DU since nearly the beginning of DU time. It has SO changed since then. Much more negativity, much more randomness, less community. I miss the old DU and the characters and friendships. Seems there's a lot of hit n' run posting here, people spoiling to fight, etc. Way too much eating our own, and lack of tolerance for each other's ideas. For the most part, in my.. 6 years? 7 years? here, I've usually refrained from addressing other DUers personally, unless it was expressing support for their ideas, asking a question. Usually I respond to the subject. I'm sure I've written a few pointed posts toward other DUers when I was pissed at what they'd written, but that's never been the reason I'm here.

I don't think DU will change the world. I think it's a place to share info with each other, share frustrations, and victories.

that's it.

As always, you make some excellent points. This is must reading here.

Thank you.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

The problem with your ideas, making this a real discussion forum for progressive ideas and works, is that this is a forum with a very wide ideology and 104,000 members. If we had tighter rules and were more restrictive this wouldn't happen but we have people from a very wide political spectrum here. We have everyone from Social Democrats/Socialists who vote Democratic to Libertarians to some really conservative Democrats and even very religious Democrats. Maybe if the smaller forums were more used it could work in them but everyone posts everything in the most read section: GD. It's too hard for there not to be fights and drama when we have everyone from some vocal anti-choice people to socialist lesbians for veganism all posting in the same forum...all walking on each other's toes, all bugging the crap out of each other.

I will give you a k&r just for broaching the topic.
Lee

http://www.kiva.org/

Waiting for the politicians and "leaders" to do anything but feather their own nests and make asses of themselves is useless. Try helping people directly.

That's really... wow. Why don't you give that its own thread? This is great!

My wife and I now have a total of 12 "loans" out and are still adding.

I just made a loan. I love it!

Damn...too much funny. Earth in danger.

And who is you avatar. I'll know it the moment you say it, but I'll never remember on my own.

It usually takes the form of "Signature lines are currently turned off due to <insert snarky comment about current DU activity here>"

And my avatar is Herbert Kornfeld

http://www.theonion.com/content/columnists/view/kornfeld

Enter tha office, biatch. Peace out.

I picked up the habit of referring to my daughter as "my shortie" from Kornfeld's columns, although I'm a Jeanketeer at heart.

Just a few hours ago I was in the bowels of the UGA library, looking at 100-year-old copies of the Journal-Constitution and thinking how the old articles -- and even moreso the ads -- reminded me of the "turn of the century" editions of the Onion. There was a great ad promising better erections, but of course it spoke only of "parts", "organs", and "manhood." Couldn't help but think of the Zweibels.

Looks interesting. Thanks.

So many who only want a little to help them. Thank you for this link, Tierra.

and as for the original OP,
I support what he said

It deserves its own thread. You probably have posted it and I missed it, but it is the kind of thing that is worthy of posting repeatedly.
:)

I'm putting a link to this page on the front page of our station webby...

:applause:

:kick:

:thumbsup:

Thank you for the link, Tierra, I missed your previous thread on this. This effort seems like something I would be thrilled to be a part of. Thanks!

Thanks

Kiva rocks, I sent it to my entire list after I found it.

Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for that link.

I started writing something in a similar vein today, but got distracted by actual work. I agree with most of what you've said. I've been trying to avoid the drama queen aspect of DU lately.

"My ideal DU isn't one wherein Will Pitt posts an emotional thread about emotional reactions to an emotional issue, receives 237 recs, and then leaves DU for the umpteenth time. While such things may seem important to you as part of the DU community, to anyone else they just seem like worthless insular drama. I'd prefer action--"

Here, here.. jesus, I didn't know whether to run to the medicine cabinet and boot up a full syringe of Insulin, or puke up my pancreas.. Another Person SADDLING UP the latest fiasco, and riding it to the FAIR.

But, GEE, *I* go that too, so it's okay.. Hopefully the Pittbulls won't be chasing me around the DU again when I post, it's come to that.

Here's how it works now. You post something that may be of Value to the DU community. Someone immediately comes on and complains that YOU are not INTERESTED IN THEIR PLIGHT. You tell them that it isn't the SUBJECT of this Thread, and they immediately come back with "SO YOU DON'T CARE about XXXX? HOW HEARTLESS ARE YOU?!"

If you start to defend yourself, congratulations, YOU have fallen into THE TRAP here.

WIthin minutes their pals will show up with HUGE SUPPORTING GRAPHICS to CHOKE the thread, the thread has now become " THE ARGUEMENT ABOUT THE ARGUEMENT" as staged by the Disruptor..

A few weeks ago I was garroted by a few posters who has DECIDED to SHUT ME DOWN, and the THREAD, they even SAID SO, and then One of them told MY WIFE to maybe go "Fellate" someone. I demanded an apology, they said NO..

Did anyone step into a 200 count thread where 90% of the attacks were unwarranted and had nothing to do with the subject?

NOPE.

Watch for it, it's the deathknell, the death rattle of the DU if nothing is done about it, esp with the primaries coming up.

Rove has WON, and everyone is MAD, but not at him, but EACH OTHER, just the way he LIKES it :)

I'm tired of seeing that blasted image of the front of your book without a link to a place where I can buy the damned thing. What gives? I want to give you money. Please, let me.

Sorry, I'm insinuating it into the subconscious of the bretheren before it takes off, so they'll recognize it when they see it on the bookshelves :)

Actually I've got a few copies made and am sending them to some film folks I know so I can see if they'll bite on a movie before I work on publishing and/or agents, the backdoor way, should be a bigger buzz if the A-List actors fall in love with it, crossing fingers..

I really wish I could just publish it myself, but I'd be shooting myself in the foot for future large sales.

BUT, when it does make it's way to the shelves I WILL Make sure YOU get a copy, a freebie for your interest. :)

I sleep through some rough shit, good to see you survived! :)

Not that this was a rant - in fact, it was an anti-rant - but this is one of the most incisive posts I've read about DU. You NAILED it.

"Recognize what you can't change. Just playacting as an important commentator or creating a roster of heroes and villains is worthless. Use your resources to influence what happens -based- on your opinions, don't just ride along with whatever is tops on the Sunday shows and try to feel important because you -have- an opinion. Real change takes years of study and work for a cause, not emotional words on a message board saying you support it."

You hit it on the head.

So, k & r.

As a DU oldster, I've spent quite a few years now simply avoiding most of the major DU emotion fests. Mostly, I just figure that people grow up at their own pace, and there's nothing to be gained for either myself or them by participating.

One of the most profound aphorisms I've ever encountered (30 some years ago) is this: "Cease cherishing your opinions." While we are stuck in our egos, we are not being of much -- if any -- use to world outside of ourselves.

From my Ojibwe friends I learned another: "The hardest journey is the road between the heart and the head."

And from my long-ago Buddhist training: "Treat all sentient beings with loving kindness."

sw

There was a time when DU activist members responded to calls to action and then documented our responses. That doesn't happen anymore and that seems too bad. What activists want is some assurance from members of whatever community that "If I do your action, you will do mine." The DU Activist HQ might be more of a focus on this board if we could create that understanding somehow.

I agree that " . . . people grow up at their own pace, and there's nothing to be gained for either myself or them by participating" in their drama. In fact, I think they only chance for them to get beyond that stuff is to be free to indulge in it until they're sick of it and move on to other forms of personal development. But, meanwhile it's pretty boring for the rest of us.

in the sky, lord, in the sky.

I can't add anything to that.

:hi:

hair mansions in the sky are nice.

,...rather than compete for the "top slot" all the damn time. But, that is merely my wish.

We are in a society that is indocrinated in 'winner takes all'.

I don't know what else to say.

for this technology. Of course, nothing replaces face-to-face human experience, and I think that IS one of the things that causes the character of DU to be somewhat limited, but e-relationships are not inherently superficial. It just depends upon who you are as a person and why you do this.

It DOES get discouraging, how often one is ignored or trivialized, but I do still try to be a person WITH other persons around here.

Have you ever heard of the great Educational Reformer, Paulo Freire? He wrote Pedagogy of the Oppressed and he had Us pegged when he said that oppressed peoples internalize and ultimately identify with what is oppressing them. All of us bitch about being treated as disposable objects, used and alienated and what do you see people doing?

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

,...I associate with people who feel no compulsion to do so.

What amazes me most, at times, on this board is the failure to distinguish disagreements about issues and attacks on individuals. I confess and take total responsibility for my disdain of those in the neocon lot. I don't bother to separate their humanity from their ideology and I know my own failure is wrong. However, they have no bother with my existence or the existence of my neighbor or friend. So,...

,...I have no desire to believe they will change to serve any one's interests other than their own.

There are plenty of other forums here with an entirely different tone. If you don't like it here, move. Or don't, whatever.

After you've been there a couple times you figure out what corners not to go in.

The few moments you choose to get up on the soap box is like finding a Kasumi Titanium Chef Knife at Good-Will for $3.59


Well said.

We have. Our ability to change stuff for the better is at an all-time low.

We're posting more than ever on DU because that's all that is left to us.
Sure, we write and call our Congresscritters, but they don't listen to us.
We protest in the streets, but the Repiggie media plays down protests
or doesn't report them at all.

DU's primary function at this point is as a support group for depressed lefties.

Believing that those of us who post here do not also do quite a bit of activism. Sure Will Pitt made his frustrated, dramatic departire from here again but do you have any idea how many hours he logs writing (for more than just us - he has three books), speaking at various activist events, going to DC, etc? Do you really know how many hours I log for my various causes? Or anybody else here for that matter. Sure, there are some armchair activists here, that I do not doubt, but having worked side by side with many of these DUers, I know you've made a mistake here.

The very thing we expect from our Congresscritters - multitasking, is the thing we expect and achieve within ourselves.

However, I think that the OP is well aware of the efforts made by many DUers to affect change in our world.

I'm just saying a lot of the time the better aspects of DU get buried under some of the more frivolous debates of opinion.

Please.

The answers to life are within all of us...so don't tell people to not be themselves. While I may not agree...they are all playing their part dude. You can't make people jump on the train...and telling them their voice, their identity, their soul is pure crap.

Stop imitating our fake leader. It doesn't work for him...it won't work for you.

relates to the OP, but it just baffles me.

Perhaps you need to read the OP again because your train just ran off the track.

Comparing me to Bush is a bit harsh, though. :D

but...there's little interest.

I agree with what you say. But, also realize that when DU has it's BEST ...manages to "mix" the fluff with the serious which makes a great Meal.

It's all off kilter...and it's the Senate Vote on Iraq and Cindy Leaving that are roiling things aside from the fact that NO ONE IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE BUSH CRIMES! Gonzales..(still there), Abramoff (still Plea Dealing)..DeLay (struting like a Peacock) along with his CRONY...GINGRICH where they talk about all they did for Lobbyists/Repugs and if only they had MORE POWER everyone could be a Goldwater Repug! (Re-inventing the Repug Wheel, IMHO).

If that's not bad enough you have the NeoCons with that Fat Jabba the Hut Kagan and Billy (I am so cute and trust me) Kristol coming out with their fellow followers) trying to say that ALL IS WELL IN IRAQ/Afghanistan and we should go "BOMB, BOMB, BOMB...IRAQ...BOMB...BOMB..BOMB!"

One has to get a little nervous...or some might even get REALLY FREAKED OUT at what's going on out here on the INTERNETS!

THEN...we can't even get into the TRASHING and BASHING and STOMPING on Cindy Sheehan who has been a BEACON to so MANY OF US....

and then...get to the Chavez BASHING and the rest of it...while that EVIL FROM HELL, CONDI (Chevron) Rice flies around for her MASSA and makes more MESS of what's left of American Foreign Policy....

WELL...it's a Witche's Brew or a Cauldron of Sewage we are dealing with in the last week. We are ALL SICK from the FETID/RANCID BREW OF IT!!! :grr:

You make some good points about the content of posts that do little besides venting emotion, but many DU threads have value even when they are not related to activism. I have learned so much during my years here that I wouldn't have from the mainstream media. DU can be an excellent resource when you intend to use it that way.

This resource extends beyond the content in linked articles. I think the human resource of the DU community is invaluable because it gives me the opportunity to have questions answered and derive benefit from people more knowledgeable and experienced than I. Again, you have to seek such benefits in order to find them.

To be a political activist and help bring about change, I think it is vitally important to be well informed about the issues and the political system in this country. DU has been a major part of my education in this regard.

I must confess though, that I haven't done as much as I can to help bring about change.

I do think some of the discussions that tend to take over the forums aren't as productive as they might be, and can seem very silly and worthless to someone who doesn't have a big stake in DU as a community. Getting together and discussing how we feel about issues is important, but I think DU at its best is more than that.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I still don't care what you think!

:P

:thumbsup:

I always stand back and say, "does this really matter"? So, I comment little and never post.

I was appalled by the Jason Leopold "Rove Indicted" flap. I quickly realized that it was driven by only a few select posters (some not here any more, I notice).

If it's HUGE news, I throw my two cents in, maybe try and find some new angle.

And what do I consider HUGE? Something that matters OUTSIDE of this sometimes insular little community we call DU. Something that will have relevance FOR YEARS.

I care not about Jason Leopold or Bev Harris. They're history. They do what they do. And they're not relevant to me unless they DO something significant to the world at large.

Cindy WAS significant. To us AND the 'outside world'. Some good, some not-so-good. But on balance, overwhelmingly good.

But to tear our collective hair out over what are basically a few posters with NO sense of perspective - is madness.

But it still annoys me. :D

I discovered the "ignore thread" option a few months ago during another "mass flamefest".
Apparently it worked wonders, since I can't remember what the controversy was.

Believe me, it does wonders for your interest and concentration.

:hide:

But what does this have to do with chicken?

Seriously, I agree with you. I would have written one of these, but I lose interest too fast to really care about writing one.

:thumbsup:

It's my function.

Giant sucking sound...

It's so hard for so many of us to articulate the way we are offended or at odds with this culture that once we get a medium in which to do so we stop there, and it's like some kind of crack almost impossible to kick, because where else are we able to express ourselves...can't even get through to C-span or get an LTTE published most of the time. I agree. Glad to read more of your words.

Some people come here to let off that fucking steam they have built up from DOING things. I include myself in that group. Thank you very much and goodnight.

It's being here that can build it up, seems to me.

The overarching suggestion in the OP - and a reasonable one it was - was for people to cut down a bit on letting their emotions do the typing.

I suppose there is only the outletting of emotion because there really seems to be little I can do. I write letters, I call the reps and senators, I don't have money to donate, I write letters to editors, I take every opportunity to talk about the multiple crises facing us, and most folks give me the equivalent of, "Don't worry about that. American Idol is about to come on. I gotta go watch." Or, "Did you hear about this or that celebrity?"

Like who the hell cares about celebrities. The freaking country is going down the tubes and there are millions of voices crying...nay....screaming! in the wilderness of apathy.

But most of the population is busy enjoying the circuses.

Realistically, I don't think the problem is with the posts themselves, but rather in the forum they are posted. Latest Breaking News is pretty clear cut, and the mods don't tolerate nonsense there. The Lounge is where I think a lot of the drama posts should go, but I guess that's grown to have a non-political flavor and so the random idjit posts end up flowing into General Discussion. Perhaps we need a tier between the Lounge and General Discussion. GD was actually pretty informative back in '03/'04. I kind of hoped the quality of discussion would pick back up in '07, but it's devolved into random emotional outbursts about Rosie, annoying reminders about who's on the radio/t.v. at what time, over-sentamentalized approbations about whomever Wull Pitt happened to speak with that day, and vapid conjecture about whether or not Gore will run. Oops, almost forgot the never-ending requests to DU a poll, or help someone counter some random, rightwing email they received. The substantive posts that are made tend to drop like a rock because they require more than 10 seconds thought.

One of the rare and glorious exceptions to this rule is kpete, who constantly strives to keep important issues in the head lights. There are others too, so don't hate me for not mentioning your name. :) Kpete just sticks out. H2O-boy as well.

I guess in the idealized DU GD in my mind, I hoped we'd be discussing the happenings in the world, the things which should be on the tips of our tongues when we speak with others and attempt to understand the crap going on around us and shape opinion.

Probably the best I've seen on what's happened here the past few days.

There are some people who live for real or imagined drama, especially when it involves themselves. And on message boards like this, it's their grand stage. On DU, it's seemingly always the same group of posters that drive this drama train; I think it's more personality-type than idealogically driven, since I've seen the same thing in boards as benign as a Shortwave radio forum.

I've been guilty of it in the past as well, until I realized how utterly pointless it is.

It's human nature.

people start accusing others of being secret freepers or ignorant/uninformed for having differing points of view.

It's one thing to disagree with the substance of someone's post. It's another thing entirely to question that persons commitment, intelligence, etc.

The same people who were offended by remarks made about Cindy Sheehan, have no trouble making similarly inflammitory remarks toward others here.

don't get enough attention as general discussions, but many of us get the same e-mails from various groups.
I feel guilty for not going to WDC on Mother's Day (with Cindy etc.) etc. or making more local rallies, but I really can't because of my job, if I want a job:) and family etc.
It is hard sometimes, pretty shitty even.
there are so many issues and most of them are all related to the BU**SH** regime.

You made some worthy points, but IMHO lecturing other DUer's on how they should post is just as bad as some of the sillier threads. I'm relatively new here and I'm really impressed with the site, the culture and the tools that allow me to ignore the junk.

I'm also glad that others pointed out that many, if not most of us, aren't simply keyboard commandos. We are activists in many causes.

If the mods want to tighten up those threads that really seem to waste electrons, that's ok with me, but I don't think it means that DU is or has become less worthy or important. I'm honestly impressed - "it's" in here. :-)

this board. Skinner owns this board, and he and he alone, makes the decisions concerning the content - in my not so humble opinion. But then "Nobody cares what you (I) think."

:(

complaining about emotional rants. Have a good one. Peace, Kim

What ever happened to "Take what you like and leave the rest".

Who decides what is a WASTE of time ? Some people who share and or vent are also doing the work
and taking action . You do not know what everyone is or is not doing. I think your post is JUST an emotional rant on your own opinions . Your doing exactly what your asking others not to do.

If DU is not the "IDEAL" place you would like it to be then perhaps it is time for you to create your own ideal place.
You can call it " less emotion and more reasonable thinking" I imagine you would have to edit each post
to make sure there not to emotional and or a waste of time.

Good luck

Peace, Kim

:evilgrin:

When a big event occurs over which a lot of people have strong opinions and emotions, I do think it can be healthy to an extent to release those emotions if it helps with that person's healing and understanding. But there does come a point when that can begin to be counterproductive, like when the flamewars start and people seem like they are trying to "one up" each other with their replies. It is tough to stand back and say "In the grand scheme of things, does this really matter?" It's hard to not get sucked into all the drama. I've certainly been guilty of that myself.

You have made some great and valid points here, jpgray. Fantastic post! K&R!

Thanks for making so many good & valid points. Complaining or preaching to the choir is addictive. And though temporarily satisfying, it doesn't change a damn thing. And I do believe we all want real, tangible change. Bravo for bringin' it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=985977

Maybe I shouldn't have used a taunt from a conservative to make the point, and I do have a problem with being too confrontative, but I do think a hostile witness can sometimes yield unique insights.

but DU is a forum to exchange news and thoughts, so we should be respectful.
Many thanks to Tierra_y_Libertad for the link to Kiva Organization.

'The Assault on Reason.'

when we let our emotions over weigh our good sense and rational thinking we are doomed. Arguing an emotional point, rather than a rationally thought out response is tragic. while I don't always like where my rational analysis takes me, it must be done IMO.

Some want rational discourse, some want the Jerry Springer show. Some want both, according to mood.

Maybe we need a Jerry Springer forum for trash talking so we can have rational discourse in LBN, GD and GD-P.

:applause:

...as long as it is backed up with some kind of policy prescription. Nancy Pelosi may very well be a corporate whore, but why? The posts of "Jerry Falwell is a jerk" are just a waste of time. Tell me something I don't know.

:eyes:

:silly:

I wish the admins would instruct the mods to limit GD and GD-P threads on a particular topic, either combining threads or locking all but the first one on a topic, as in LBN.

Of course, we'd have to help by not starting dupe threads (though everyone does it accidentally sometimes) and by alerting on dupes.

Imagine if all the Cindy Sheehan threads had been just one thread, and the same for all the Falwell ones.

We could have talked about a lot of other topics without denying anyone the right to talk about Sheehan or Falwell.

:bounce:

Post 100, WooooooooooooooT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your post would be better without that. I like reading his posts, and as
he gets a lot of redommendations, obviously many others like them too.

Really, if your looking for less emotion i doubt this is where you should be- there are a lot
of frustrated progressives who need to come here and vent about things, and its going to get emotional. and I for one am glad it does. Otherwise we'd all be boring robots and nobody would read anything.

"The steps Man takes across the heavens of his universe are as uncertain as those steps he takes across the rooms of his own life. And yet if he walks with an open mind, those steps must lead him eventually to that most perfect of all destinations, truth."