Open Letter To Anyone Who Says "If We Knew Then What We Know Now"

Dear Presidential Hopefuls, Republican Faithful, Members of the "News" Media, Freepers and Any All-Around Confused Citizens:

      About this "If WE Knew Then What We Know Now" meme. It's an EEEEVIL damaging LIE of a meme, and just because it's all over the place DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.

      But most importantly, anyone who really truly believes we didn't know, or just knowingly disingenously repeats this phrase; to this person, it should be pointed out that...

      YOU DON'T DESERVE NOR NEED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

      WE, as a nation, deserve and need better than that.

      Is that so hard to understand? There will be a test.

Sincerely,

Hissyspit

I know many people were fooled, but I truly believe that 90% of anyone with an average amount of brains and education looking hard at the evidence would not have been convinced. In fact, if you look back at the polls of Americans, the vast majority were unconvinced that we needed to fight Iraq and most were strongly opposed to it. I vividly remember that.

that on the eve of the war the majority of Americans opposed it?

I will buy that most were not sure of it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

"Consistent with the anti-war rhetoric of the protests, in the months leading up to the Iraq War, American public opinion heavily favored a diplomatic solution over immediate military intervention. A January 2003 CBS News/New York Times poll found that 63% of Americans wanted President Bush to find a diplomatic solution to the Iraq situation, compared with 31% who favored immediate military intervention."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Popular_opposition

Since the same poll showed that if talks failed they were fine with invading Iraq, and history shows that even if thalks failed because the Bush Administration blew them, they were fine with it.

Thank you for the follow up though.

Bryant

was AFTER the vote,
After the inspectors were in
After Saddam was destroying missiles
I assume most Democrats in the Senate preferred that a diplomatic solution be found - that is exactly what Seantor Kerry was publicly saying in the fall of 2002 and winter of 2003.

Before the vote, there had been no inspectors in for 4 years and most thought that Saddam would not agree to tough inspections.
Bush said that a yes was no a vote for war.

the best pizza around. It's clean they use good ingredients and give you a lot for your money.
The guy next to you says yeah I heard that too. So pizza it is, all but two of us voted for pizza.
The other two read somewhere in the local paper the pizza joints last inspection wasn't so cool plus they were low on money and brought their lunch that day.
The pizza arrives, all but those two, eat like pigs laugh have a good time until three hours later, when blam! all the eaters are rolling on the floor in agony from food poising. Now in all but two of our offices sits that local paper folded up unread on our desk, some of us say I was wrong I did not read that paper and should have, I may have changed my pizza vote. Some of us say it was a bad article we all know they HAD, great pizza in the past and we will keep eating that pizza because it can't stay bad if we eat enough of it. Now the question is, who should the should the clerk go to lunch with?
A person who keeps eating bad food? A person who has no money? or A person who likes to eat, have fun a has learned from their mistake?

To represent us and make the right decisions they MUST take time to read the material. In this case, the intelligence WAS AVAILABLE for them to read. How many bothered to read it?

Shame on those that didn't bother to read it and voted for the war.

Shame on those that did read it and still voted for the war.

If I can find this shit out, and I'm just a lowly, dutiful tax payer, then I hope the hell that the people who are in the know and can actually see these reports would actually KNOW what is going on. To say you don't know is bullshit. I want them to stop lying and say... I voted for this war because I am bought by corporate backers and the corporate media spun everything so the American people would think war is good... so I went along like a chickenshit piece of crap and now I want to be your president.

And I'm a foreigner, with dial-up Internet access.

Don't Democratic Congress people and senators spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for staff? Research people? Computers? Communications equipment?

There's no excuse.

Even if they didn't know for sure, they should have waited for clarifications and verifications.

The LEAST they could have done was insist on debate.

They knew. But they "went with the flow".

It was convenient for them to agree and say they didn't know now.

We all know what a fuck up bu$h and company was, there was evidence of what they wanted to accomplish all the way back to 1998 or earlier.

I know Hil uses this Fucking LIE every chance she gets. Who else does?

They wouldn't have voted for her.

Everytime I hear that I just want to rip my hair out. There were 20+ members of the Senate who knew better, so feigned ignorance is no damn excuse. :mad:

They actually think we're so ignorant we'd believe them.

We DID know then what we know now.

If you trusted THIS president, then (to quote a line from my favorite Zone) "it leaves me with a deep and abiding concern for your judgment in men."

He lies, he cheats, he steals. Every last mother-trucking ONE of them does. That's what they do. It's their bread and butter. They're as self-centered and evil as Napalm Death is fast. There isn't an honest Bewsh in the bunch. What's so difficile about this?

The only difference is that instead of having a smart Nazi in charge, we now have a DUMB one, which is infinitely more dangerous.

there are no excuses that justify this. btw, I just finished reading this:

snip: "Here is a tragic review of the vote. It is called "The Iraq War Vote Was 6-94."

snip: "In October 2002, prior to the October 12, 2002 Iraq war vote, under lock and key, prepared for our Senators and Representatives by our country's top intelligence analysts, lay a 92 page report about Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, and everything we knew about Saddam.

It sat waiting for our elected officials to sign in without staff and read it, 92 pages. No staffers allowed, elected officials only. A five page declassified document was readily available to all but the 92 page document, you had to show up, sign in and read it.

Only six Senators did.

Only six Senators thought that sending our country's bravest off to war to die was worth a few minutes of their time. How long a report would you have read before deciding to send our nation's finest to war?

snip: Senators Biden, Graham, Roberts, Rockefeller, Durbin and one other did their duty. No one else did.

note: I would very much like to find out who the sixth Senator was, if you know, or if you are the Senator who did, please email me. I know a beautiful mother whose son went to Iraq and never came home. I want to know for her."

http://www.smokingpolitics.com/2007/06/the_fear_of_the_smear.html

:eyes:

No.

INTELLIGENT.

PREDISPOSED TO HEALTHY SKEPTICISM.

NOT PREDISPOSED TO GIVING FREE REIGN TO AMERICAN FASCISTS IN MATTERS OF VIOLENT CONFLICT.

NOT TOO LAZY TO DO SOME RESEARCH.

You know, stuff like that.

As Hillary said plainly the other night, She could not have truly known that bush was going to abuse the IWR in the ways he had. They were also lied to repeatedly and decieved in many ways. I know some want to be all holier then though with their "I knew it! I knew it!" attitude, but the real world is far more complex than their thinking.

So yes, what the OP is asking for here is that all presidential candidates be psychics, thereby eliminating the risk that they will ever not know what may happen in the future that they hadn't already known.

Really quite silly, in my opinion.

As did many others. Anyway, just because Hillary says something doesn't make it true.

Nothing silly about OP at all. Doesn't have anything to do with supernatural abilities. It's about the LIE, the implication that EVERYONE ("WE") didn't see through. Wasn't necessarily aimed at Hillary. I seem to remember HER saying "I," not "We." If she said "We," then shame on her.

> As Hillary said plainly the other night, She could not have truly
> known that bush was going to abuse the IWR in the ways he had.

That's almost laughably funny, because *WE* here at DU
all knew that Bush would abuse the intent of the resolution
so I just can't believe that Hillary didn't also know.

But when the war looked like a sure bet for a "Slam Dunk",
it was politically expedient for her to vote for the
resolution, so she did.

Now she's trying to plead ignorance because the alternative
is complicity.

Tesha

Yet didn't listen to or act on that knowledge.

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii) Tom Allen (D-Maine) Joe Baca (D-California) Brian Baird (D-Washington) John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine) Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin) Gresham Barrett (R-South Carolina) Xavier Becerra (D-California) Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon) David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office) Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania) Corinne Brown (D-Florida) Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)

Lois Capps (D-California) Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts) Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland) Julia Carson (D-Indiana) William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri) Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office) James Clyburn (D-South Carolina) Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office) John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan) Jerry Costello (D-Illinois) William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office) Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)

Susan Davis (D-California) Danny Davis (D-Illinois) Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon) Diana DeGette (D-Colorado) Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts) Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut) John Dingell (D-Michigan) Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas) Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania) John Duncan, Jr. (R-Tennessee)

Anna Eshoo (D-California) Lane Evans (D-Illinois) Sam Farr (D-California) Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania) Bob Filner (D-California) Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts) Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas) Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)

Alice Hastings (D-Florida) Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office) Maurice Hinchey (D-New York) Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas) Rush Holt (D-New Jersey) Mike Honda (D-California) Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon) John Hostettler (R-Indiana) Amo Houghton (R-New York, retired from office) Jay Inslee (D-Washington)

Guess Scott Ritter & Will Pitt were psychic too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5291704

whom the slur is aimed at..course Obama didn't have a chance to vote since he wasn't in the senate, so does that sit him on top.....Wonder how many people in this country launch a full scale investigation every time someone tells them something. Most of us didn't like bush, but did you really truly think that most people would believe that he would tell deliberate lies to get us into war. As much as I did not like him, and did not want to go to war, I would never have believed he would lie so outrageously.

but Hillary's vote is what it is, and I was disgusted by it at the time and I still am.

But no, we don't have to scrap the candidates. Not all of them are saying this. I don't have a problem as much with "If I knew what I knew then..." which connotes acknowledging personal failure, as opposed to "If WE knew then what WE know now," which implies EVERYONE failed, which is not true.

Anyway, your presumption that this was a slur specifically at Hillary is incorrect. And I don't consider it a slur, anyway. I consider it a call for people to stop lying.

* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
* Barbara Boxer (D-California)
* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)
* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
* Bob Graham (D-Florida)
* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
* Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
* Patty Murray (D-Washington)
* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii) Tom Allen (D-Maine) Joe Baca (D-California) Brian Baird (D-Washington) John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine) Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin) Gresham Barrett (R-South Carolina) Xavier Becerra (D-California) Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon) David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office) Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania) Corinne Brown (D-Florida) Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)

Lois Capps (D-California) Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts) Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland) Julia Carson (D-Indiana) William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri) Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office) James Clyburn (D-South Carolina) Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office) John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan) Jerry Costello (D-Illinois) William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office) Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)

Susan Davis (D-California) Danny Davis (D-Illinois) Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon) Diana DeGette (D-Colorado) Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts) Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut) John Dingell (D-Michigan) Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas) Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania) John Duncan, Jr. (R-Tennessee)

Anna Eshoo (D-California) Lane Evans (D-Illinois) Sam Farr (D-California) Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania) Bob Filner (D-California) Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts) Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas) Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida) Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office) Maurice Hinchey (D-New York) Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas) Rush Holt (D-New Jersey) Mike Honda (D-California) Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon) John Hostettler (R-Indiana) Amo Houghton (R-New York, retired from office) Jay Inslee (D-Washington)

on Iraq. Fine, good enough for me, I wasn't absolute about it myself. I think we should focus on what a candidate wants to do for our future. Sometimes I think people try to hard to find the perfect person. There is no such person. To me it's like, I have an idea of a perfect house. I have seen it but it's unattainable for one reason or another. Instead of ending my search or just finding fault with all the other choice out there I'd keep looking for a good alternative, it beats where I'm at or getting something worse. Maybe even it has better neighbors, or schools, or it's closer to work. Or maybe with some improvements it can be an even a better home then I had imagined to begin with. If I stay focused on the negative of the situation I'll overlook many other options. When John Edwards said he was wrong, that showed me a good foundation, something we can work with. All candidates have a past, but we aren't going in that direction, and nobody is everybody's perfect house so lets find common ground and build from there and stop finding fault, we could end up staying in the same old shack or sleeping out in the rain. It's good to point out the positives in your favorite candidate. The only one I agree with 100% is me, and I ain't running.
Just remember the best way to defeat an opponent is from within.

I don't have any problem with "I was wrong," or "If I knew now..." I have a problem with "If WE knew now..."

K&R :hi:

Its just that no one listened.

I knew Iraq had no WMDs. I knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I knew we hadn't finished the job in Afghanistan. I knew the PNACers had for years been looking for any excuse to take over Iraq.

And I knew that Bush was a clueless frat-boy pretending to be a real President.

All of these facts were KNOWN *BEFORE* we attacked Iraq. The only difference is that I was paying attention.

And I'm no Washington insider, with years of political experience and access to intelligence and State Department briefings. What the hell was wrong with all of THEM?

I sure as hell *KNEW* and I was a rum dum nobody doing research back before we invaded Iraq--how did *I KNOW* the yellow cake documents were crude forgeries?

How could ANYONE in power back at that time with access to WAY MORE than what I would have ever had access to NOT KNOW?

...then it is inconceivable that the people in Congress shouldn't have known. I was able to find, within 48 hours of Powell's infamous speech to the UN, credible, non-tin-foil-hat sourced information debunking or casting very serious doubts on nearly every one of the claims he made in that speech. I was able to do this in my spare time after work. Anyone who's job it is to know these things and to question these things and make grand decisions affecting all of us on our behalf, who claims to have "not known then..." is either incompetent or a liar. Period. They were too lazy or apathetic to put in as much time and effort fact-checking as a middle-aged phone jockey/cube-rat in rural Missouri. They don't deserve to hold office - especially not the highest office.

For them to say "we didn't know then..." means either they were too lazy to try, or just didn't give a damn, because there were plenty of us who did know, even then. And if they didn't know, why the hell weren't they busting their asses to find out? It's not as if this was some trivial "Name That Building" bill, or even a "Tax Break For Oil Companies" bill that they could have had some lackey intern skim through, read some polls, and offer an opinion. This was a bill handing over Constitutional authority to declare WAR. This was the single most important bill most of them had or will ever vote on. The only way they could say "we didn't know..." is to state that they didn't bother to try.

There should have been inquiries and investigations and hearings and days or weeks of non-stop debates. There should have been thoughtful reasoned debates full of healthy skepticism, questions and doubt - demanding complete answers with supporting evidence. There should have been heated debates full of passion and emotion. Shouting matches. Fistfights. Gunplay if necessary - before coming to a decision whether or not Congress should or could abdicate it's Constitutional responsibility for such a serious business.
They should have spent at least as much time as they spent arguing over Terri fucking Schaivo.

I agree with the OP that anyone who tries to claim ignorance, and especially anyone who tries to proclaim that we were all ignorant of the truth does not deserve to be President.

/end of rant... off to the liquor cabinet to find that bottle of blood pressure medicine

...and I was a restaurant worker in Pittsburgh who didn't follow "politics".

The whole thing smelled to high heaven, contradicting everything we knew about the supposed "war on terror", (which soon evolved into everything we knew about international law, post-war international security framework, common morality, etc.). It was therefor incumbent upon any sentient being to investigate.

I suppose I had the relative advantage that the internet was already my "medium", and I don't take well to brain washing.

Unfortunately, even here at DU, people will resist to the bitter end what this actually means.

Zero legitimacy until all of this is acknowledged, repudiated, and rectified.

I like to watch the eyes and facial affect of the politicians who repeat that LIE.
I want to know if it causes some distress in the inner places in their souls where they KNOW the truth and KNOW they are partially responsible for the murder of over 1/2 Million innocents, or are they a complete sociopath whose only concern is their own political marketability. :shrug:

Watch the eyes as they LIE.
You decide.

K&R

For the first time in history there is a viable female candidate for president!!!

This fact is tearing me up.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale