A New Waco Is Possibly Happening Right Now.

Authorities Converge On Ed and Elaine Brown's Home
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I don't know if it is true but I just heard the Brown's home is now on fire.

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=6626288

Plainfield, New Hampshire - June 7, 2007

State and federal authorities have converged on the home of a New Hampshire couple involved in a tax standoff.

People are being kept several miles away from the Center of Town Road in Plainfield, where Ed and Elaine Brown live. Neighbors, including some who have been evacuated, reported police SWAT teams, a helicopter and at least one armored vehicle converged on a field near the home Thursday morning.

Authorities have not said if they were moving in to arrest the fugitives

The Browns have been barricaded inside their home for several months, after being convicted of tax evasion. They did not even attend their sentencing hearing, in which they were sentenced to five years in prison. The couple has not paid their taxes in more than a decade and owe nearly a quarter of a million dollars in back taxes.

Elaine Brown once had her own dentist office in Lebanon.

Ed Brown says he is armed and has promised a Waco like ending, saying he will not be taken alive.

people are the victims because they refused to pay their taxes to that same insane government.

It's just crazy.

Even rich people have to pay their taxes.

themselves in.

These people might be criminals but to use violence against them IMHO makes them victims.

BTW...as to rich people paying taxes, the more money you have, the more of an ability that you have to not pay your fair share.

with their guns, and threaten to kill police, then yeah, I'd want SWAT team to come in.

"BTW...as to rich people paying taxes, the more money you have, the more of an ability that you have to not pay your fair share."

And apparently this guy ran out of ability.

He brought his "victimhood" upon himself.

Over MONEY. Sorry, no violins here.

classic victim

They barricaded themselves in their house and from the story: "Ed Brown says he is armed and has promised a Waco like ending, saying he will not be taken alive." That's a little different than some jaywalker or pot smoker not turning themselves in.

Seriously, how would you have handled this? They barricaded themselves and threatened to have a "Waco like ending".

It doesn't sound like they want to go after anyone else, they just want to stay in their place. Now these people will become martyrs and start a whole bunch of other crap.

Tell us exactly how you would go about bringing them to justice.

And since this guy as promised a Waco style ending, it is undoubted that it will end that way. I can only hope that they do not harm any innocent people.

Cheers
Drifter

The government doesn't have to come on like gang busters with a full artillery over damned unpaid taxes.

police officer a violent offense???

People have been killed by law enforcement for crimes such as these- and less.

What pisses the hell out of me is, i've known people who failed to pay their property taxes, and had their homes taken from them- if they'd barracaded themselves in and had an arsenal like brown has, they'd be seen as "patriots" by some- who defend what this man is doing. His issue is not one of morals or ethics (ie: those who refuse to pay the 'military defense' part of their taxes) but out of greed. This couple has money- they even have the money to pay-up on what they owe, and they haven't been living 'bare bones'-

I have little respect for this man- or his wife- or those who have brought their anger and weapons here to 'support' him.

There has been an unusual amount of restraint shown by the authorities in this case- i hope it ends better than most of us expect. And better than brown has threatened.

A logical extrapolation of your argument, being that violent responses are only justified if the crime is non-violent, is that any non-violent crime will be non-enforceable provided the offender is armed. Environmental laws? Out the window. Theft laws? Out the window. Zoning laws? Out the window.

The government has every right to come down on non-violent criminals with violent force. Mind you, proportionality should be observed, but ultimately the threat and use of force is a key component of governance. When negotiation fails, force is the natural fall back.

it's the price of living in a civilized society, no matter how uncivilized its leaders seem.

these people need to get a grip

I've heard this argument before and I'm not so sure I agree with it. If by 'civilized' you mean 'with modern amenities and military' then maybe. But I'm still not sold.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

what next:eyes:

it isn't any 'more noble'-

not if anyone is being honest.

People often kill for money.

Money has more value than human life- in many ways- too many ways.

I guess some people get pissed off that there is actually a price to pay when living in a civilized nation with infrastructure in place.

Makes me want to go to any one of these anti-Tax loons and simply pose the question: "Are you aware of any vibrant, dynamic, long-lasting civilization that did not require its citizens to pay taxes?"

How do they think the troops get paid?

cameras and reporters are not welcome.

Wish the couple would have learned an even more valuable lesson-- pay your taxes rather than threatening violence.

WOW! How do you suppose this couple "threatened" violence? Your viewpoint takes my breath away!! I don't care if these people owe a million dollars to the IRS, they should be confronted in a better way. In the scheme of things, these people are small potatoes and being made an example of what will happen if one gets behind. We know nothing of their circumstances. An armed citizen is nothing compared to governmental forces....they probably have Mr. Brown in their cross hairs as we speak.
This incident should be broadcast worldwide so we can tell the globe how we practice freedom.

themselves up and threatened a waco ending.

So you think evading the law and threatening major violence is merely practicing freedom?

According to the story, they threatened violence against the Feds if anyone attempted to follow through with due process. Sounds pretty threatening to me.

Not that they're not already crazy.

I'm worried that this happening under the watch of Bush would be the final act of betrayal that would turn the militant terrorist freepers against the US government, they would start shit like this all across America. That would be a pretense by Bush to usurp more liberties, and would cause more police state type stuff.

Let's hope it ends well, but these people didn't seem like the type who were willing to go peacefully.

And they all own guns.

Not a good combination.

Sorry, but these people are criminals.

economic circumstances of this couple. People get desperate. How much money do you think the gov't has spent going after them with a helicopter and tank? I think it's over kill on the gov't's part. As far as I can tell, Mr. Brown has told the authorities he can defend himself not that he would KILL them. Many here scare me in that they think this assault is justified.

they've kept it aside. They have avoided paying taxes for over 10yrs- It was done deceptivly and with premeditation. They were convicted of a felony- in a court trial that offered them far more lee way than any other average non "militia" family would be afforded.

There is no "assault" happening. These selfish arrogant jerks are playing. If they were poor, black, hispanic, or god forbid of middle eastern decent, they'd have been taken down immediately.

Do some research on them- if you are going to defend them, you should have the facts to rely on.

I have grown weary of hearing them whine about not wanting to pay taxes, and living in relative splendor. I pay my taxes- i have crumbs in comparison, but taxes, especially those that go to pay for schools, and the benefit of our society are part of the dues we owe for the privlidge of living in this community.

They use the phones, internet, mail systems, highways (by proxy), and even had the Rescue squad pick up one of the people living with them, late one night, ... all these services made possible in part by the movement of money through our system- including, and relying on those of publicly collected taxes.

There is no bravery, nobility or admiration due the browns- they are delighting in playing this game. And using the media for all they can. I can offer them pity, but not respect.

I do hope they are disapointed, and end up not in a bloody shoot-out, but by serving their time, and having ample opportunity to do some real deep thinking.

down my throat! I read what was linked to the post. Sounded like it was just happening. AND, I don't give a sh_t if they have the money or not......many, many,many people in this country do not pay their fair share....so what else is new?

my snarky reply.

I live close enough to this situation to be tired of hearing about them- and tired of their foolishness- It seems like so many people are trying to give these people so many 'passes'- and instead of them realizing that they are so fortunate to live here, and NOT in Iraq, or Darfur, or Somalia- or Haiti- and being reasonable and rational they play games, and waste more money, time, and effort-.... why???? do they really have a legitimate reason to behave this way?

I do give a shit that they are getting prefrential treatment- i don't want them killed- or for them to be put into a place where they can attempt to justify their use of the violence they have threatened.

Remember Kanye West? Remember the graphic example of the African American people in NOLA Looting- versus the "White" people "getting supplies"???? this is just another example of much the same thing-

I'm tired of people using the meme of 'god' or 'freedom' or 'the constitution' to justify doing what they know- deep down inside to be WRONG-

They were convicted in a court of law- they have jerked the authorities here around time after time.
I don't respect- or admire them-

BUT- i don't mean to dump my frustration about them on you- and I'm sorry that i did.

i do wish you peace, and hope you'll excuse my attitude-
blu

other than just the link in the original post I can see the "other" side too! My bottom line is that I always favor the little guy. Stupid but.........

Because from what I've heard, and I could be wrong, income tax doesn't go towards paying any of those things you mentioned. Most of those things paid by taxes added to purchases and I doubt they weren't paying those, I don't know how they would manage that illegally. Property taxes do go towards things such as schools and other public uses.

big deal.

These people aren't victims.

Of course, Randy Weaver was actually innocent, so there's certainly THAT difference. Doesn't sound like these people have a moral leg to stand on.

That said, I wholly disagree with the concept of a standoff or armed takedown of people who have not committed any kind of violent offenses. In Ruby Ridge, three people died because of an accusation that one person had technically broken one law. In Waco, dozens died for the same reason. In this case, more may die over an unpaid tax bill.

Just issue a warrant and be done with it. Whether they get caught now or in 5 years, at some point they'll come off their property and can be taken without incident. If they spend the rest of their lives without EVER leaving the property out of a fear of being arrested, they're just consigning themselves to a different type of prison anyway.

or are you suggesting that anyone who commits a crime is perfectly justified in threatening violence to anyone who tries to bring them to justice?

I'm saying that the government has no right to take someone by force when they haven't committed a violent offense. When government agents roll in with heavy weaponry and armor, essentially saying "comply or we will injure or kill you", which side actually started the violence? There was no threat of violence, not even a discussion of it, until the police made it clear that these people would be taken by force. They simply met the threat with one of their own.

The police have no justification for using force in this case. Issue a warrant, and arrest them when they're seen off the property. It's not a violent offense, they're no danger to others, so the government has no pressing need to force these people into detention immediately. To do so is simply LEO muscle flexing, and doesn't serve the interests of either the American people or the criminals.

I have no problem with SWAT teams kicking in doors to take down murderers and kidnappers, but tax cheats? That's so far beyond stupid it borders on insane.

Batshit crazy, certainly, but no violence. As far as I can tell, there is no violence EVEN NOW. Only the threat of it, and only against those who would attempt to take them by force.

If law enforcement goes away, so does the threat of violence. Tack on a charge for threatenting law enforcement, get the cops out of there, and let them live in their self-imposed prison for the rest of their days. If they're stupid enough to come off the property, they can be grabbed without the giant standoff.

are rich white well armed assholes?

If you want to give them this kind of pass- what about others who have broken the law, and refuse to 'surrender'??? Should the law just let them be as well?

The authorities even let someone who was 'supporting' them be taken from their property by ambulance several months ago- They negotiated with the Browns and agreed not to try and take them into custody, but to just get the sick person taken care of.

Why should these arrogant fools get such kid glove treatment????

I really don't care about how arrogant these people are, or what color they are. What I care about is putting lives at risk for no practical reason. I'm not saying that they, or anyone else, should have the charges waived. I'm simply stating a simple fact that any progressive should agree with: Violence begets violence, and the nonviolent approach is ALWAYS superior to an equally effective violent one.

It would be easier on everyone if these people just went to jail and served their terms. That isn't going to happen, so instead of a show of force, the police should just back off and wait for a less contentious opportunity to grab them. They WILL, eventually, serve their jail terms. Justice will be served. Nobody is getting away with anything.

Let me ask you this, point blank: Is it worth ending a human life to put these people in jail today, instead of putting them away a year or two from now? Does it actually HARM anyone if their imprisonment is delayed by their non-cooperation, so long as they DO eventually have to serve their terms?

Let's say that they had committed an armed robbery. Assume no one was harmed. Now they are holed up with their weapons refusing to surrender. Would you say that the authorities should do nothing but wait them out? Would your answer be the same if they had hurt someone in the original crime, but were not likely to hurt anyone else as long as they were holed up? What if they hadn't yet been convicted, but were suspects in a murder. Should the authorities simply let them remain holed up for months on end and make no attempt to take them into custody so that they can stand trial?

Trying to understand if there is any circumstance in which you think the authoroties are justified in using force to take someone into custody.

Someone who has committed one violent crime will probably re-offend without intervention. Nobody was harmed in the first robbery, but a violent offense was still committed. They are a danger to society by their very presence, so the public good IS served by attempting to force the situation. With a violent offender, or even a suspected violent offender (as in your accused murderer scenario), every day they're on the street is putting lives at risk, so it's better to just get the risk done and over with.

These people are tax cheats. They are threatening nobody except the people who want to drag them to prison. They are NOT endangering society, so it's not worth forcing the issue immediately. An armed robber IS a constant danger to society.

Clearly not:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/255505/new_hampshire_tax_protesters_say_the.html

They set the situation up for martyrdom and a media stunt. "Martyrs" blew up the the towers on 9/11, too.

Where, exactly, is the violence in that article? The people are clearly nuts, but they have attempted to harm nobody, and are threatening harm to nobody unless an attempt is made to physically remove them from their home.

They can't harm anyone as long as they are essentially held captive in their home. No one is at risk. Eventually they'll have to come out and they can be arrested (or if they come out guns a-blazing the authorities can shoot back.

Not seeing how the situation is any different from the Browns. They aren't endangering anyone so long as they are trapped in their home. They are armed and, presumably, if they instigated a shoot out with the police, you wouldn't have any problem with the police responding (although, following your logic, I suppose if the police just went away then they wouldn't be tempted to instigate violence against them so the fully non-violent response is to go away and hope that some day they turn themselves in non-violently.

If a non-violent offender, like these people, escape the property, there is little risk they'll harm anyone else. Their threats aren't against innocent people, but against the tax code. An escape may trigger a manhunt, but there's a huge leap between tax evasion and carjacking or murder.

An armed robber, on the other hand, has already proven his risk to society. If he escapes the perimeter, he puts everyones life at risk until he is apprehended. He has already PROVEN his willingness to use violence against innocent people, which does justify the potential use of violence to detain him. He is an imminent danger to society.

Tax dodgers, even crazy religious tax dodgers, aren't in the same category.

Assuming the Brown's "escape," they've made it quite clear that they will employ violence if someone tries to capture them.

Something could have gone wrong during an armed robbery that could have caused someone to feel severe pain or suffering, be injured, and/or die.

Even just having the weapon falls into the category of at least criminal negligence.

In this case, however, tax evasion isn't violent in any sense. Not paying taxes is not the same as wielding a gun.

So, extending the logic of the argument, why should the authorities do anything other than wait out the armed robber. He's no risk to anyone as long as he's trapped in his home.

And to the extent the armed robber might escape and threaten someone else...well, its pretty clear that if the Browns escape, they will commit violence on anyone trying to take them into custody.

I don't think the fact that they are threatening violence should give them a free pass.

direct question I will say an unequivical no-

It isn't worth ending a human life for most of what lives are ended for in our society.

What bothers me about the stand you are taking is that it is applied only to situations such as this.

How many situations are allowed to peacefully end that involve less weaponry, and less rich white man outrage? i'll tell you my own observation- VERY few-

Who is to say that their failure to pay their taxes HASN'T cost someone their life? Ed brown says the only thing he 'recieves' in exchange for his taxes, (local taxes in this instance) is coverage from the Fire Dept- and says it is not very good coverage besides. This couple has lived on their estate for the last ten years, playing the media, and using people to satisfy their desire to be 'famous'- They have used countless man hours of police and law enforcement personel- clogged the already overburdened court system with thier nonsense- and wasted an incredible amount of time, energy and money- Money that could have been far better spent on LIFE GIVING endeavors-
Unfortunately, the browns chose to make a very public circus out of this selfish, narcissistic issue. If the govt did nothing in response, what would stop everyone from following suit- and then where would we all be??? Why should they get a 'pass' on this? Because they have lots of weapons? Well, hell, that's a real good incentive for people who have plans to break the law to arm themselves to the teeth, and then expect the authorities to just sit back and wait for them to peacefully end their siege.

I find people standing up for this couple to be pretty hypocritical, and surprising. I don't advocate the use of violence- but should the browns threats be ignored and humored until they have had enough playing and decide to start shooting???

The way the authorties have handled this so far has been incredibly patient and rational. They don't seem to be calling for a show-down even now, but that day will likely come. When it does, how can someone defend the browns without calling for all offenders to be treated with as much patience and understanding- i'm be willing to bet it'll be a cold day in hell when the police sit and wait out a meth house stand off in this kind of manner. Why shouldn't the same call for prolonged patience be made in that case?

I'm not defending these people to the exclusion of others. Hell, I'm not defending these people at all. They DESERVE to be sitting in prison, and as I've said in several other posts, they deserve to have their stays in prison extended because of this lack of cooperation. And yes, I do happen to think that without evidence of an imminent threat, the same peaceful arrest methods should be attempted for things like meth houses.

I'm not faulting the police for the patience they've shown thus far, and it's been admirable (I wish a lot more would show that kind of patience). I'm simply saying that, if the police have waited this long, what's another six months? They don't need a full time police perimiter around the property, just one person, or even a frigging VIDEO CAMERA, so someone can keep an eye on them...and hopefully catch them attempting to leave.

Violence is not needed to resolve this situation, because nobody has really been violent yet. There is no imminent threat, and no justification for an escalation. If he DOES take a potshot at someone, I'll back of completely. At that point he will have proven himself a threat, and all reasonable force should be used against him. But that hasn't happened, and except for some shouting and camera mongering, there is really no evidence that it will. So far, the guy has only proven that he has a big mouth.

notice they would be taking the dental office from what i've heard-

There doesn't seem to be a plan to esclate this into something big- which i have to admit i am relieved to hear- but it sure does piss me off that they are honestly getting prefrential treatment- and i appreciate your acknowledging that they should be in jail, and that similar patience and respect should be shown to others in situations such as this.

i've got several links to stories about this couple- some are from the early 90's- some are recent- many have some pretty troubling militia slants to them- but it does really bring into context the influence that the browns have over other like minded people- and the potential danger that thier stubborn stand-off may feed.

I appreciate exchanging perspectives with you- and believe we agree far more than either of us might have thought initially-

here are the links-

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=1124041

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=6420963&nav=4QcS

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/REPOSITORY/701170329

http://yannone.blogspot.com/2007/01/will-plainfield-be-another-waco.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia63.html

http://www.lastfreevoice.com/2007/04/26/wealthy-convicted-felon-fugitives-given-special-treatment/

http://www.unionleader.com/pda-article.aspx?articleId=fc655466-78cc-455d-8997-9722d450aee1

http://www.makethestand.com/

peace,
blu
:hi:

aware of that?

is not something that surprises me-

frustrating? yes. wrong? absolutely- typical? afraid so-

now, what can we do about it????

we can voice our disgust....I know, it probably won't help.

I would argue that the couple are the ones that started the violence. It seems that they have been waiting for them to leave their property, as they've been holed up for months now. If you are convicted of a felony and refuse to turn yourself in, and threaten violence on a grand scale to the authorities if they come to get you, then you have indeed started the cycle of violence.

I have no sympathy for tax evaders, or for people who escalate a situation to this scale willingly.

Why the particular hurry to get these people into jail? More importantly, does the rush justify the loss of human life? Who cares if they've been waiting for months. I don't care if they have to wait for 5 years. Make sure the local cops know what they drive, keep a warrant issued for their arrest, and grab them when they're off their property. At some point they WILL have to leave.

The prison will still be waiting there for them in 5 years, and in the mean time they're just locking themselves into their own sort of prison.

Someone that can bring them supplies from time to time.

I see this differently. I see this as the couple being the ones escalating this to violence and desiring to end this with the loss of human life. They may have not been convicted of a violent crime, but they crossed that threshold the moment they started talking about ending this violently. Not to even mention that they're clearly insane enough to do it.

They're not really in their own prison. People in actual prison would beg to differ. They're in their own home, with those comforts, on their terms and heavily armed. All the while, they're breaking more laws - more severe laws. I can see why this can't be allowed simply because of the precedent - threaten to kill the cops if you are convicted of a crime, and they'll just leave you alone indefinitely is a really terrible, dangerous message.

This is a horrible situation these people have put law enforcement into.

Whether law enforcement leaves them alone or not, they're still fugitives. The police simply need to make it clear that people bringing supplies in will be arrested for aiding and abetting. I don't care if it's a caring neighbor or their kids. They can sit in their hole until they're ready to come out and give up. Anyone who willfully prolongs that process should be jailed.

Really, how long can they hold up? How long can they survive without food or electricity? They don't get a free pass, and they SHOULD get extra time in prison for dragging it out and for threatening violence, but eventually these people are going to leave their little compound.

Then the shooting will start.

These people want to be shot by the cops.
I agree that they should be starved out, but I'm afraid the outcome will be the same.

Starvation and dehydration do tend to take the fight out of people, however.

But if the worst case scenario does happen, if they do try to leave, start a shootout, and people die, then what has really been lost by waiting? That outcome is practically guaranteed if they try to enter by force. There's still a decent chance that it will end in a firefight even if the police try to sit them out, but the odds of a peaceful resolution during an escape attempt are a heck of a lot better than the odds of a peaceful resolution if the police try to force their way in. If the police wait them out and these two end up dead anyway, the only thing lost is some time.

As I've already said, more than once, they belong in prison. Their stays should be increased because they made this so difficult.

I just don't believe that the government has a right to behave violently against ANY non-violent criminal simply because they're not cooperative. The government can, and should, arrest them when they get the chance. The government should NOT force the issue by escalating a standoff. They aren't an imminent threat to society, and there is no justification for it.

everyone out. They are armed. Now what?

and the govt is just now noticing? Did FEMA take over the IRS when I wasn't looking? :shrug:

bring this situation to a crisis on more than one occasion. The law enforcement people have been incredibly patient, respectful, and considerate. I'm not one to jump to defend the authorities, but this man is spoiling for a fight-

And i hope he doesn't get what he is looking for.

He is an arrogant, narcissistic fool.

I live near enough to know this to be true.


I hope no one is hurt in this stupid media stunt.

:grr:

I found a local paper that had covered their conviction and made it clear that the Brown's were literally gunning for a fight--and religious martyrdom.

I hope fora ll involved, as well as the locals, that they get neither.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/255505/new_hampshire_tax_protesters_say_the.html



OP, feeling any better now?

arsenal that they ammassed.

Something to USE to further their own agenda, which is not simply $ but wanting to be famous-

These fools aren't part of any religious cult- except one of their own making.

If they really were using the silly fundementalist mind-set, they'd know that the bible requires them to obey the authorities. As well as the other poster says- Render unto ______ and how about not storing up for yourselves treasures on earth- or do not kill?


This couple has been spoiling for a crisis since the get-go.

I'm a Christian and I've known some out there denominations from growing up in small towns. When the word martyr becomes part of the discussion, faith goes out the window, and religion is simply a tool--kind of like al Qaeda uses it.

Suicide is a Biblical Sin.

Either way, I'm hearing Darwin's pager going off over this one. Unless there's people other than the couple in the house, which would suck. Does anyone know about that?

(Incidentally, the Google ads I'm getting on this thread are fantastic. Personality tests and home security systems. ;) )

But at least they can die by getting shot rather than setting themselves on fire like those idiots in Texas.

If not, I don't think this was necessary: "Elaine Brown once had her own dentist office in Lebanon."

Because I was goanna say they stuck that in there to alert everybody that these people may be of middle eastern descent once owning a store in Lebanon, Beirut.

They are libertarians and obviously a bit on the nutty side. The siege is idiocy, these folks are not a threat to anyone, if left to themselves. Here is how a SANE society would resolve this problem:

You wait them out.

It is that simple. They run out of supplies, they come out to get more supplies, you arrest them.

http://www.lebcity.com/
http://www.city-data.com/city/Lebanon-New-York.html
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DGUS,DGUS:2006-26,DGUS:en&q=Lebanon+NJ
http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=12518
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=DGUS,DGUS:2006-26,DGUS:en&q=Lebanon+PA

:hi:

There could be one in Texas also!

and there is also a Palestine TX. We've been looking for a camp by a lake and we found the town. :)

It's NW of Waco.

It's up sort of midway up near the Vermont line if I remember right. We used to go to the movies there when we were up skiing.

I grew up near there.

air power is the solution. once you say that, I don't think you deserve to have guys risking their lives to come rescue you from your own madness

You've got to be kidding!

How about this: Just cut off electricity and water and starve 'em out.

No power, no water, no food going in. No medicine, no friends, no communication. How long can these people really hold out? How long until they try to leave? Or give up? So what if they've already waited a while...that wait is saving lives, and that alone makes the waiting worthwhile.

Why are you not putting the onus of saving lives on the Browns? It seems they're the ones who could quite easily end this with zero violence. Zero risk of violence.

I'm afraid I don't understand how that statement is relative to the question posed. Maybe you could explain it in a wee bit more detail?

What they didn't see is that the Browns HAVE BEEN IN PRISON in their own home.

Just erect a fence topped with razor wire around the place. Deliver prison grade food once a week.

Let the local constabulary go by once or twice a day to make sure they're snug in there and not in any sort of medical crisis.

Take the fence down when the sentence is up.

Crazy people create their own prisons.

Tom Delay? Scooter Libby? Corporate embezzlers and defrauders?

Or having passed a law, found someone guilty of violating it, should we enforce it?

If Scooter holed up in his house and declared that he wouldn't be taken alive, I'd say the same thing. It's not worth the standoff.

Make sure the airport screeners know his face so he can't flee the country, have the local LEO's step up enforcement in the area of his home to catch him if he leaves, and leave it be. The prison, and the prison term, will still be there for him when he's eventually caught. Sentence enhancements for non-cooperation might even make the "next" Scooter think twice about doing the same thing.

Face it, prison for a lot of nonviolent crimes does more harm than good.

Let them hole up for 6 months, or six years. Who cares. Eventually they'll come off the property and be caught. At that point, they'll get to serve their full terms. If you want to throw some sentencing enhancements at them for hiding out so long, that might discourage others from doing the same thing.

But standoffs over nonviolent convictions are stupid.

can I just stay home, too? I could live a long time on $250,000 if I never went anywhere. . .

The Browns were found guilty of failing to report and pay taxes on over $2 million in income. Yep, $2 million. In March, they were ordered to pay the back tazes (over $200,000) or face the confiscation and sale of their home to cover the amount owed. Moreover, as a condition of Elaine Brown's bail agreement with the state, she was ordered to live at her son's home in Worcester, Massachusetts and not return to her home in New Hampshire. A tracking device was attached to her, and she was given permission to leave her son's home only if he was accompanying her; she destroyed the device and went back and holed up with her husband.

By the way, the judge in the case has gone out of his way to give them every chance to appeal. For example, their notices of appeal were, on their face, procedurally defective. Instead of using this excuse to dismiss their appeals, the judge ordered that the notices of appeal should be treated as having been timely filed.

more.

Everyone involved with the prosecution end of this circus has been more than patient, respectful and accomodating. Brown is loving his stardom- I hope this situation ends with them being peacefully taken into custody.

So many people would have loved to have traded places with them.

Earning that sort of income requires education and hard work (unless you inherit it, or something). But it also requires decent luck, as well as a society that provides conditions in which a person can reasonably expect to succeed.

In refusing to pay their share of dues to society, these people have thrown away everything they worked for. I can see why a lot of us find it hard to feel much sympathy in the face of such deliberate, needless self-destruction.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Couple+won't+fight+verdict+of+tax+evasion&articleId=98a1f839-eddf-446b-b17c-93c05204b45c

Fascinating.

So, what about all that "render unto Caesar" stuff?

Who Would Jesus Shoot?

this might not be such a horrible fate. Suicide-by-cop is my guess--a way to give the system a black eye on your way out. I don't sympathize with these people's crime but I understand the mentality.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You want to see the law that requires AMericans to pay an income tax. Okay, here ya go:


http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/JustNoLaw.htm
http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html


Next?

Now as to whether all of this compulsory payment is just, I don't know. That's a different debate.

I would like to point out that if someone feels compelled to protest using taxes, as a sort of civil disobedience, then they ought to be willing to accept the result and do so peacefully.

Oh jeez....

I'm beginning to think there's an equivalent of Jack Chick (of the little comic book fame) for people who think there should be no price to live in country with infrastructure, laws and reasonable chance of not getting blown up.

Search for yourself if so inclined.

Better than 90% of the American public supports the income tax today, because they understand that government services will cease if it goes away. Both major parties support income taxes, and it's only a very tiny, very radical fringe element that opposes it.

If the argument was TRUE that no law existed requiring the income tax to be paid, name one good reason why a bill wouldn't have been introduced, overwhelmingly passed, and ratified into law, correcting that little problem?

The answer is that these people are a joke. There is no law that says "All Americans must pay taxes". There is no law, there is an ENTIRE SECTION OF LAWS. Title 26, US Code.

A FUCKLOAD. because they refuse to support the tyrannies that the government uses our money to engage in. There is an entire movement f people who do not pay their taxes in protest, some have been doing it for years.

A SWAT team because they didn't pay their taxes?! I smell bullshit.

The fact that people don't pay their taxes or under pay their taxes doesn't make it legal. And some don't pay as a form of protest and some don't pay as a form of greed. Doesn't make any difference. You take the risk of not paying and get caught and you face going to jail. That's how laws work. The Browns didn't pay their taxes on over $2 million in income. Why? I have no idea and don't care. Did they want to make a protest? Fine. Pay the price of your civil disobedience and go to jail. Are they just greedy? Fine, pay the price and go to jail.

Taxation is actually illegal/unconstitutional and yet we are forced to pay extreme taxation. Just because someone makes up a law, does not mean that its correct or the right things to do.

the 16th Amendment and Title 26 United States Code.

26 USC:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode26/usc_sup_01_26.html

16th Amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Somebody's got a bad case of tinfoil poisoning or maybe is just talking about the constitution of planet xenon.

Take a peek at Article I, Section8 of the US Constitution: "The COngress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises...." As for income taxes, well there is this part of the Constitution called the 16th Amendment --"The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived..." And in anticipation of your suggesting that the 16th Amendment was never ratified, here ya go:

http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/16th.htm

and there is clearly a whole title in the United States Code with various chapters describing the operation and authority of the IRS to collect taxes.

War tax resisters do not dispute the government's authority to tax, and they aren't trying to get away with anything. They are actually very scrupulous about filing their returns. But instead of a check, they send proof of having donated to charity the entire amount owed. This doesn't really settle their tax bill, and the government can still press for payment if it chooses to do so. If that happens, violence or armed standoffs are out of the question: war tax resisters just don't do that sort of thing.

The feds sometimes seize wages or property, but tend not to pursue criminal charges against them.

read up on this couple-

it isn't bullshit- except that the reason the browns didn't pay was greed-


here are some links for you-

in this case, the government has operated like the 'good guys'- hard to believe, but they have.

in case you don't do the reading- brown started this fiasco when Clinton was in the house- and they put thier money into postal money orders to avoid taxes.

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=1124041

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=6420963&nav=4QcS

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/REPOSITORY/701170329

http://yannone.blogspot.com/2007/01/will-plainfield-be-another-waco.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia63.html

http://www.lastfreevoice.com/2007/04/26/wealthy-convicted-felon-fugitives-given-special-treatment/

http://www.unionleader.com/pda-article.aspx?articleId=fc655466-78cc-455d-8997-9722d450aee1

http://www.makethestand.com/

good luck- some of these sites are really :puke:

why barricade yourself inside a house with guns instead of letting the courts try the case? Law enforcement knocks at your door and you answer with threats you deserve everything that happens to you after that.

Waco, "knock knock, who's there?" "ATF" bang, bang, bang...... That's no way to answer a door.


Yeah Randy Weaver was innocent until his family started firing on law enforcement officers. He's the reason they are dead. He should have let the courts determine if the shotgun was legal. His failure to do that cost him his families life. Fucking gun nuts piss me off.

... or did they just decide one day not to pay their taxes, even though they could afford to?

Exactly what happened here that made this situation go so completely wrong?

It's hard to believe that anyone would literally rather die than pay income tax like everyone else. So what happened -- are they, like, members of a cult or something?

Does anyone here know more about this?

They're two rich people who didn't pay taxes.

and betting that this couple are registered republicans.

ya think?

> Or (registered) libertarians.

Not in NH. Right now, only Democrats and Republicans have
"ballot status" so there are only three ways to register:

o As a Democrat
o As a Republican
o As an "undeclared"

A party gains ballot status in NH by drawing 5% of the vote
in the most-recent gubernatorail election. Libertarians had
ballot status for a very brief period (back in the 80s?)
but rapidly lost it again.

Doubtless these clowns are Republicans.

Tesha

...for anyone who can show them the law that requires them to pay federal taxes.

http://www.showedthelaw.blogspot.com/

Go for it! :hi:

I hope in the end it's resolved without death or injury.

How did they make out with Mark Rich?

Not sure what it is you're trying to say pal.

All I'm saying is that I hope the feds are able to arrest the criminals without violent incident or harm. Is there something wrong with that? If so, then say so plainly instead of going off on ridiculous tangents.

Every few years something like this goes on.

and sanity returns to government.

It's in the First Amendment. You do have the right to withhold your money. I know many anti-war people who withheld their money. But of course the IRS is not going to tell you that.

with hold all their taxes, or the portion that is dedicated to military defense?

I too know and respect a couple who has taken this stand. It is a reflection of their whole life outlook- not done 'lightly' or without understanding of the risk they face by doing so-

Nor do my friends threaten the government with violent armed conflice should they be held to account for thier decision.

The IRS isn't in a position to tell people they can withhold money if they choose not to- and they shouldn't- The right of 'redress' is not a 'I just won't pay' and no one can touch me- clause. Rather it is your RIGHT to go before court and ask not to be held liable for the tax- at least as I have learned the history of this ammendment.

Does he still owe the IRS over 200 million or more with penalties and interest? What about the 3.1 trillion missing from the Pentagon? Didn't Donald Rumsfeld announce on Sept. 10 2001 about the unaccounted missing trillions?

Take him out before he can do anything stupid. Perhaps his wife will come to her senses. He could be holding her as a hostage.

What?

For holing up armed and threatening to kill law enforcement. If he says he won't go without a fight and won't be taken alive, it's probably best to take him out before he can do anything serious.

If they don't want to pay their taxes, fuck 'em! They should move to Somalia or some other hell-hole where the govt is too weak to collect them.

Lots of people don't pay taxes through perfectly legal measures of tax avoidance, not to mention millions who don't pay any taxes at all. Do they not have the right to live here?

Yeah sure, if you don't buy ANYTHING!

Food, Clothes, Gas, STUFF. That's all taxed. Property taxes. Payroll Taxes. Everyone pays something.

That you were speaking of federal and state income taxes.

SEVERAL MONTHS!?! Where the fuck are the Feds? These anti-social fuckwits need to be given the smackdown.

That's the same type of reasoning used to allow torture.

it's an authoritarian approach.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBOIZmuP1P8

Though I don't defend them for breaking the law, this violence is unacceptable.

Even though the information was the same.

The sentiments that flowed in that thread should be part of this discussion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1064566&mesg_id=1064566

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=152568743&blogID=273816021&MyToken=6eac59ac-373f-469d-a9dc-962577b8bac1

Friday, June 08, 2007


by Reno
Current mood: curious

least for now...

i am currently safe. and for those of you that are friends of ed and elaine's myspace have noticed, there are some problems here.

they had cut the phone and internet but then restored it. betting mostly because the amount of support that came in for you all and more... good job everyone! now if we can get just a bit more...

if you want to come you are welcome, just know that the risk is real. no grabassing. the weapons are loaded and the concern is of your freedom and true safety; safety for your self and family and friends from the federal government that is out of control... not from that fake terrorist crap being crammed down your throats... which by the way are likey either blow back and false flags done to us by our government! they are the murders and the true killers... the news talks about the mindless killers that stalk our streets.

what about the mindless state and federal agents that carry out orders that are unlawful; "just doing my job" that shit is not going to cut it anymore.

help us fight them here on Ed and Elaine's door step or fight them on your own at your's.

currently there are no road blocks set up. and a few more supporters have join us here over the night.

daniel from what we gather made it back home safe. his whole trip would have been safe if it were not for the police trespassing on grounds that are not theirs. sneaking around like thieves.

you could not tell from the video but he was bruised up pretty good.

look feds, you made people like danny. and you created people like me, that have the same training and have taught others like your selves to do what we all thought was good for the common man. to enforce the laws. the law of the land... key point... you are not doing that. and the laws you enforce are of the maritime law... i know this makes no sense to you cas you were told and taught one way of thinking.

open you mind. and look at thinking with questions...

if not, then you are going to be the whipping boy for those that only use you. your life is not worth their money, and i am not talking about YOUR pay check.

i have to cut this short in case we lose connection again.

we are a republic. the federal reserve is running this country into the ground. WE are the government! they are not our rulers, they are elected by us to carry out our will.

remember this if you have doubts...

"if not me, then who? if not now, then when?"

reno

thank you A

:kick: