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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:50 AM
Original message
How do you know if you are racist?
I've seen a lot of posts around here the past few days calling out whites for denying their racism...

I guess I'm wondering - how can I tell if I am denying my racism or just plain old not racist?

:shrug:
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why do you worry about it?
You've lost me. There is only the human race.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Apparently I did not convey my tone appropriately...
:sarcasm:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
59. AHHH, so yours was not a sincere question!
I get it now! :think:
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. Everyone is racist to some degree.
Some people are barely racist, but do adhere to some stereotypes, others are horribly racist.

It's impossible to not hold some racist views.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Everyone is racist?
Where do you come up with that? There is only the human race.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I think that everyone holds at least some sort of stereotype against some group of people.
It may be very slight, where it doesn't really affect their interactions with that group or it could be severe, such as belonging to something like the KKK.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
67. It just another lie white people tell to make them look not as bad...
... by blaming it on everyone. It's funny - to all appearances white folks just *can't help* but to lie about these things.

:rofl: :rofl:
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #67
87. I know what your saying, but there are racists blacks too!
I hear them all the time putting down Mexicans!
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. fucking responded on wrong branch - my bad.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
89. Let me know when you learn what the word "scale" means....
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 12:33 PM by BlooInBloo
... and when you're done with your "But MOMMMY! black folks do it TOO!" bullshit.



EDIT: "lean" and "learn" are very different things.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Racist? No. Prejudiced? Yes.
I don't think everyone is "racist" or "bigoted." Whereas, everyone is prejudiced or biased in some form or fashion. It really comes down to linguistic interpretations.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Well, that's pretty much how I was using the term "racist" so...
you're right. It really does come down to linguistic interpretations.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I figured it might be the way you were using the term.
I have read other posts by you, so I was guessing that was what you meant. ;) I see "racism" and "bigotry" as more 'actionable' and 'expressive,' whereas I see 'prejudice' and 'bias' as more 'internal.' It is not to say that bias and prejudice can't lead to racism and bigotry, because, sometimes they do.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
98. Ah, that is a good difference
Few people would actually be racists or bigots, but everybody (except little kids, maybe) would be biased and prejudiced.

Not liking the people in the car next to you at the stoplight because they are blasting rap music is bias. Locking the car doors because of them is racist.

Is than an accurate example?

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rebel with a cause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
57. Thank you!
I have been wanting to scream this for the last several days when I read posts here mixing racism for what should be called prejudices. We all have prejudices, but only those that use these prejudices (either with words or actions) to hurt or limit others are racist.

I don't consider myself a racist, and neither does anyone who knows me, but you don't grow up in the region that I did without having prejudices embedded deep into your sub-conscious if not in your consciousness. In other words, I have prejudices and know it, know it is stupid, fight it, and try to never allow these prejudices to come out in my actions. Now I have sometimes been ignorant about things I did, and then had to live the rest of my life embarrassed/sorry about it. Like complimenting a Chinese person on how smart their child was and saying I had heard "their people" were very smart. OMG, that was forty years ago, when I first left the all-white area I had grew up in, and I still blush when I think about it and realize how ignorant I was. I never accepted the negative stereotypes but it was too easy for me to accept the positive ones it seems.

:blush:
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
65. If you think that, then you don't know what racism means.
That's just not true.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
77. you must be in a position of holding power to be racist....
as white people in this country do. other races here can be prejudiced or bigoted, but not racist.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #77
102. Um, no.
Nice bit of propoganda though.

1.a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racist

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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. everybody is racist, some folks don't like to admit it.
That is a rather sweeping generalisation but IMO it nearer to the truth than hordes of people claiming they are not racist.

Most people that I've met use the "I'm not racist but ..." line. It comes from not thinking.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. There is only the human race
Got it?
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TheBaldyMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. yes, doesn't stop me being racist, or anyone else.
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. I'm not in a race. I'd know if I was. n/t
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JacksonWest Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. There's stock car races. Every Friday. In Toledo. They rock!
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. You can tell if someone is racist by the color of their skin,
and only if it is white :rofl:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. I guess so... so it would seem anyhow. nt
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. We're all Racists
Just as we're all sinners. (I'm not particularly religious, don't get the wrong idea.)

But we walk around living our lives, and sh*t happens. We make mistakes. We are afraid. We have unworthy thoughts. That makes us human.

The question is how we deal with our guilt. It's part of who we are. As with soldiers, who are afraid. The question isn't what we feel -- it's how we DEAL with what we feel.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. What does racism have to do with your rant? n/t
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rwenos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. My "Rant"
I think people lie to themselves about many things, many deep motives. The commonality is DENIAL. We deny who we are. I just think we should be more honest with ourselves, and try to be good people and do the right thing anyway.

Did you really think it was a "rant"? Maybe I'm just inarticulate.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. Racism is a subset of of "otherism"
which is just being afraid of someone you think isn't like you. Economic class, education, language, color... the illusion is that someone is different from you. The truth is we're all the same, and finding that truth is our job here on earth, in my opinion.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. If you believe words have the same meaning for all different races, you are racist.
The word "articulate", for instance, is an insult when refering to African Americans if used by white people, but not if used by other African Americans or used to describe non-african people. If you don't see how different and conflicting meanings of words also all bring us together at the table of brotherhood, you are racist. ;)
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Calling anyone "articulate" is kind of a put down anyway
I mean really, do you think "Hey, you know how to convey thoughts to others verbally!" is a great compliment or something?
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BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. It is a putdown if the person they're speaking to is an educated professional
Young people often speak in slang terms that are "in" and shut out us older folks. This has been going on since at least the 1920s and covers all races and classes of people. The other day I told an 18 year old DUer he was articulate in a post where he said his weight kept him from being approached by women. I meant it as a compliment. He was communicating with the community at large in a way that could be understood by most people. He was not speaking in slang terms that would cause an MTV-less person like myself to be confused. I am just a person who happens to be impressed by someone whow has a way of turning a word.
That *said* Barak Obama definitely does not fall under these guidelines. To call him "articulate" when he's had advanced schooling and has been in government for some time is a put down.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. That's bullshit. Allow me to demonstrate:
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 08:35 PM by mondo joe
Advanced schooling and has been in government for some time:




Neither makes a person articulate - a word that is indeed a compliment.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Acknowledging that one is able to do it well is a compiment.
For that matter, given the general poor communication skills in the world, just doing it adequately is praiseworthy.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
53. crock of...
The word "articulate" isn't racist if used by a white person to describe a black person. It's racist if you say..."they are articulate for a black person." ...implying it is an exception.
Madspirit
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Psssst... Madspirit
I'm picking up that the poster to whom you responded is still stinging from the PC "common currency" about the N-word. Being sensitive to usage of 2 or 3 MORE words in context is simply more than can be tolerated.

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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. If you worry about whether you are or not, then you probably are.
Or more correctly you have it in you to be racist.

People are either arseholes or O.K. folk, or more likely both at different times. If you're afraid to call an arsehole an arsehole, becasue of their ethnicity then you're a reverse racist.

Simply being wary of strangers in a strange/uncontrolled situation isn't racism. It's prudence.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. lol I wasn't actually asking...
I was attempting to express the fact that it is ridiculous to assume that every single white person who says he/she is not racist is somehow in denial, which someone posted in another thread.
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brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. Easy just take the test
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 02:36 AM by brettdale
This is a test to know if your racist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-767rN_cDs
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
23. Honestly?
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 08:37 AM by lukasahero
IMO, if you're white and deny that presents you with inherent privilege in this country, you're racist.

FTR, I'm white. I know that by simple circumstance of birth, I start with more opportunity in this country than people of color. I will continue to fight for the day when that is no longer true but suggesting it is not true today is obscene.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Denial of Racism by Racists
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 09:36 PM by Moochy
"If you're white and deny that presents you with inherent privilege in this country, you're racist."

This is like a Jeff Foxworthy joke gone horribly right. "You know your a redneck if" :)

Thanks for making this point!
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. that may be true for some, and not true for others. your generalizing
nice racist statement there.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Against WHOM?
(btw, it's you're. The contraction of "you are." YOUR is possessive, although his/her generalizing does hit the mark. :evilgrin: )
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
80. I can't really see it in the military.
Here, it's all about the rank we wear on our uniform. That said, the military is a sub-society of our larger society. Some of us in the office were remarking that one could not joke about race in the civilian sector the way we joke about it in the office; somebody would get offended. That, however, is because we have a common bond that transcends race. This was in an office that was 2:1 black to white.

So enlighten me: how does a white electrician at a paper mill, like my father, have a great advantage over a black electrician working in the same position with the same skill set?

I've asked this question of others who make the same assertion and they always give the same "if you don't know, you're clearly racist" response and never really answer the question. Please don't do that. I really want to know, and I operate in a sub-society where racial dynamics don't operate the same way they do in the greater society at large. I've no point of reference from which to draw a comparison. Please just answer the question.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. To add another point....
...I think a lot of blue collar whites who have to bust their asses to pay the bills balk at being told how "priveleged" they are because of their race. There are degrees, just as with anything else.
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Consider the difference between wages and wealth.
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 07:59 AM by femmedem
Now, of course it's possible that the white electrician and the black electrician, making identical wages, have the same amount of assets. But it isn't likely. For every dollar a white person owns, a black person owns less than a dime.

Why? A few reasons.

First, many white families raised themselves into the middle class using the GI bill to get a cheap education and mortgage. Blacks got GI bills, too. But there were too few spaces available at the black colleges. Most black GI bills went unclaimed. And the mortages they got didn't translate into as much wealth, because they bought in black areas where housing didn't appreciate much. My white grandparents bought a house after WWII which eventually made them wealthy. That didn't happen for many blacks.

Second, social security favored whites, because jobs traditionally done by blacks (domestic help and farm labor) were deliberately excluded from social security benefits. This means that many black elderly people, after working their whole lives, were destitute. And it means that their middle-aged sons and daughters were supporting them, thereby diminishing their own net worth. This wasn't the case for nearly as many whites. So for whites, the wealth flowed from the elderly to the middle-aged in the form of inheritance but for blacks the money was flowing in the opposite direction.

I'm sure you can imagine other reasons blacks have inherited less, on average , than whites. Just remember, it's the wealth, not the wages.

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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Okay.
I guess I could see that if there was any wealth in my family. My grandparents on my mother's side were poor farmers; the only thing my parents inherited from them was debt. My grandparents on my father's side are still alive, but don't have much to pass on to their nine grown children. Just one house in a less-than-wealthy part of town.

But I guess if my grandparents had been among the many who got college degrees after WWII, my perspective might be different. As it stands, his wages and his VA loan are all my dad had coming out of the Navy. For myself, all I had was debt coming into the Air Force, and that's all I really have now.
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. I don't know if you're interested in looking further into this,
but if you are, my favorite book on the subject is "The Color of Wealth: the Story Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Divide." What an eye-opener. There's much more there than the little bit I've mentioned.

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JacksonWest Donating Member (561 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Racism is a belief that one race is better or inferior then another.
So, if you beleive that Eskimos are superior to Puerto Ricans, You're a fucking racist.
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Our culture inficts us with stereotypes and hidden bias. Try this link:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Great website. Thanks. I've bookmarked it. n/t
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. Answer: the morons that were "calling out whites for denying their racism" are racist.
Pretty simple, once you think about it.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The Americans I trust are those
who don't get defensive when confronted with the water in which they swim.
They are those who say, "OOPS, I never saw it THAT way. I realize it and am working on it. Thanks for pointing that out." They are those who ask questions rather than behaving like bullies who believe it's their G_d-given RIGHT to define the terms. They are those who recognize how fucked-up our social and economic systems are, realizing the we're ALL in the same boat and will hang together or hang separately.

Would that you were one.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. So if someone points out racism they are morons?
I get it. Never disagree with the disagreeable.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I don't think that's it --
it's claiming that ALL whites are inherently racist, not pointing out racism where it actually is.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Everybody is racist, but many of us know where it comes from
and we recognize it and deal with it everytime it rears it's ugly head. So often many people have racist attitudes and say racist things not knowing that they are racist and I do feel that this should be pointed out to the offending party. I mean we had a public situation about that yesterday between Biden and Obama. Biden still can't believe that what he said was racist. I mean if you were walking down the street with your skirt caught in your pantyhose you would want someone to stop you and tell you wouldn't you?

Also, pointing out racist attitudes will actually be of benefit to the person displaying these attitudes. It could happen that they offend someone who doesn't look stereotypically whom they harbor racist feelings about. There could be repercussions they don't expect like getting refused service at a place of business, not getting hired at a job and other things like that that can and do happen just like happened to Biden.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
29. Take the test and find out.
Project Implicit from Harvard has developed a test that might let you know.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. What an interesting site!
I took one of the tests so far, and was very surprised by the result!

"You have completed the African American - European American IAT.

Your Result

Your data suggest a strong automatic preference for African American compared to European American."

Only 2% of respondents received this result. I'll have to do some thinking about why I scored that way.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
68. ROFLMAO!! 70% of test takers prefer white folks to black folks.
Too funny.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. It can come from both sides.
And there are only two solutions if people really cared.

One is to have everybody instantly drop all preconceptions and feelings and start afresh.

The other is admitting there is no solution and hope you don't die in a bout of racial hatred.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. Issue is bias
Psychology Today
May-June, 1998

Where bias begins: the truth about stereotypes

Annie Murphy Paul

Psychologists once believed that only bigoted people used stereotypes. Now the study of unconscious bias is revealing the unsettling truth: We all use stereotypes, all the time, without knowing it. We have met the enemy of equality, and the enemy is us.

Mahzarin Banaji doesn't fit anybody's idea of a racist. A psychology professor at Yale University, she studies stereotypes for a living. And as a woman and a member of a minority ethnic group, she has felt firsthand the sting of discrimination. Yet when she took one of her own tests of unconscious bias, "I showed very strong prejudices," she says. "It was truly a disconcerting experience." And an illuminating one. When Banaji was in graduate school in the early 1980s, theories about stereotypes were concerned only with their explicit expression: outright and unabashed racism, sexism, anti-Semitism. But in the years since, a new approach to stereotypes has shattered that simple notion. The bias Banaji and her colleagues are studying is something far more subtle, and more insidious: what's known as automatic or implicit stereotyping, which, they find, we do all the time without knowing it. Though out-and-out bigotry may be on the decline, says Banaji, "if anything, stereotyping is a bigger problem than we ever imagined."

Previously, researchers who studied stereotyping had simply asked people to record their feelings about minority groups and had used their answers as an index of their attitudes. Psychologists now understand that these conscious replies are only half the story. How progressive a person seems to be on the surface bears little or no relation to how prejudiced he or she is on an unconscious level--so that a bleeding-heart liberal might harbor just as many biases as a neo-Nazi skinhead.

As surprising as these findings are, they confirmed the hunches of many students of human behavior. "Twenty years ago, we hypothesized that there were people who said they were not prejudiced but who really did have unconscious negative stereotypes and beliefs," says psychologist Jack Dovidio, Ph.D., of Colgate University. "It was like theorizing about the existence of a virus, and then one day seeing it under a microscope."

* * *

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_n3_v31/ai_20526120/pg_1
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
40. If you get snarky when it's called out.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
42. If you were born, you are racist.
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 09:30 PM by MJDuncan1982
Just my opinion.

Edit: However, that doesn't mean that you are a racist. But all humans have racist tendencies.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
44. If you were born in this culture, I'd be very surprised if racism wasn't part of your life.
It's like being born in a fish tank and not getting wet.

This is a great question to ask. Good for you, Katherine.

:)
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Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
45. My wife would let me know
Since we are not the same race, it is only natural.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
46. I understand your question
I find it amazing that after spending my life defending equal rights for everyone, I have suddenly this week found out that I am a racist.

Amazing how people who have never met me, don't know me, and know nothing about me start calling me names. The internet is really something.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
47. I'll jump in
Edited on Sat Feb-03-07 02:31 AM by Solly Mack
Biden didn't say Obama who is......Biden said "African-American" who is....

The emphasis then being on race - but the only thing many people heard was "is articulate" so the only thing that registered was a compliment - and not the inherent insult in Biden's statement.

So if the only thing that registered was the compliment, then a person might be someone who is so accustomed to African-Americans and other non-whites being spoken of in a certain patronizing manner, that whenever they hear such comments, the ingrained racist thinking behind the comments just doesn't register with them.

Yes, Biden was speaking about Obama but he emphasized Obama's skin hue instead of just seeing him as a person, as just another candidate

Can you name one white candidate(ever) that has been spoken of in these terms:

I mean, you got the first mainstream Caucasian-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy

You can't - and the reason you can't is because in a white is superior dominate society/culture - white is considered, and accepted by other whites, as being the "norm", all others are viewed as outside that norm - and judged against that "accepted" norm.

So any and all positive attributes are the providence of the white is superior dominant culture...things like: clean, articulate, well-groomed, honest,nice, kind etc.. Because the white is superior thinking claims it.

Conversely, all the negatives then belong to non-whites: lazy, shiftless,criminal,dirty, inarticulate, etc. ...because the white is superior thinking claims it

America's history tells us, in no uncertain terms, that the "white is superior" thinking played a huge role in shaping America...from the beginning until now.

Out of the process to dominant non-whites and enslave them came the language to do so...it wasn't just enough to use brute force, language to justify the actions was also used. Language was needed to justify Jim Crow. And language is still used today to impose a white is superior thinking.

From that language was born code words and phrases...words and phrases that don't always register with people because they are so accustomed to non-whites being spoken of in such a manner... so used to it that those code words and phrases seem "normal" and "good" and "right" - and if something seems "normal" and "good" and "right", you don't go looking deeper do you? ...even when you should.

If you can't recognize those code words and phrases, you might be a racist and you might wanna go looking deeper.

A lot of white people get defensive about this - because it means they may harbor racist thinking shaped by the language they grew up around...and thinking does shape language just as much as language shapes thinking...it's subtle and becomes ingrained without ever being challenged as wrong.

Sure, anyone can recognize the overt racism...the N-word, etc.

But it's the covert racism, in words and in actions, that escape attention because they do seem so acceptable. And the reason it seems so acceptable is because you grew up hearing non-whites being spoken of in that manner without ever once wondering about the "root" of it. Without ever once thinking of about that history behind it...and you didn't wonder because it just always seemed so "acceptable"















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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. great post
you nailed it
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #48
73. TY, goodhue!
:hi:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. That sums it up perfectly n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
74. Hey malaise
Thanks!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Bada-bing...
Bada-BAM!!! Thank you, Solly!!!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #50
72. Hey, Karenina! I tried
I noticed the breakdown and further explanation of how "mainstream" is used on Maddy's thread...maybe we need a thread that deconstructs the entire statement?



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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. 3 day news cycle...
ON TO THE NEXT BRIGHT, (SHINY) CLEAN OBJECT.

Oh, Solly. I'm really saddened today and prolly jes' need to log off for a while. WE KNOW the colour code alerts as well as the back of our hands. We are not granted, by some in the dominant culture, even the acknowledgement of our experiences.

The OP's question was merely a screen to express an opinion rather than a genuine inquiry. Reading through the thread makes that abundantly clear.

I am taken back to the memory of asking my dad at 7, having come home completely devastated by being called a nigger at school, "Will people EVER understand our family?" He told me "YES. But you will probably be all grown up by that time." Then I saw the tears in his eyes and KNEW he felt he was telling a little white lie, to smooth my path. To give me hope.

I was addressed on another thread with "Sorry, kid." The poster went on to point out my darkie agenda and failures at mainstream resonance in my communication on DU. Pushing 60, having integrated the elementary school in the 50's, having lived on the "bleeding edge" of the "first (credit to my race)" all my life in the rarified atmosphere of white-dominated institutions and pursuits, this poster was CONFIDENT in her dismissal and projections being accepted as "mainstream." "Sorry, kid." Yes, Solly. I AM THE ENEMY. I have always been the enemy as my VERY PRESENCE in the room challenges preconceptions.

I'm happy to live abroad. Not that the dynamics are that much different, just that there are more who are willing to STOP. LOOK and LISTEN.

I attended an audition for the major orchestra to hang out with my colleagues and support their students. "SO what's SHE doing here? WHOSE MISTRESS IS SHE?" X bellowed. "What are YOU doing here, X?" came the immediate response. "I'M an OBOIST." Then several colleagues shouted, "SO IS SHE, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!"

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. ((((Karenina)))) Lots of hugs
D and I have been discussing Biden's remark for a few days now. In one news show some white gentleman said words to the effect that Biden was talking in the "old language" of the "time" he grew up in..and D said "Well maybe he needs to learn a new language because we need lawmakers who think in a better language"

I opted for a really good bottle of wine with dinner tonight as a treat to myself (some D and I had left from our trip to Breganze)..because sometimes we just have to step back from the maddening crowd and be good to ourselves. It doesn't change the world but for a little while I could lose myself in a few pick-me-ups. Wine from Italy,a really good German coffee, chocolate from Belgium, cheese from France... and a beautiful blanket from Turkey..(I love living abroad!)...so I curled up with D after dinner and we celebrated ourselves and a world (our own) where the ignorance of others couldn't intrude.



I celebrate you, Karenina! Your wit, your laughter, your music, your soul.





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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Good job!
:thumbsup:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #55
76. Thank you, L_A
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 04:11 AM by Solly Mack
:hi:
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Speak Solly Mack, Speak!
Yes! You are so right!

It is either in the eyes of one who has been a victim of racism -- African Americans for example, or in the eyes of the "entitled."

To hear Biden say, with admiration no less, that Obama was "articulate etc." is a slap in the face to African Americans because we have first hand experience with White people being so "surprised" that we speak/write English.

Only a fool would marvel at Obama, a Harvard graduate, for being articulate. On another level, it doesn't take a college degree to determine that Bush is NOT articulate. Yet he got a free pass through each and every debate for 02 and 04. He is praised for being a "straight talker." Why? because he is "entitled" because his ancestors gave him a higher power.

The sooner America wakes up and realizes that the enemy is NOT the African Americans that helped to build this country ~ without PAY, the enemy remains with blinders on to the feelings of others.

The enemy = those that have the gall to think they are "entitled" and can control the World and be the Dictionary for Minorities. Those that think that they have the only valid view of what words can sting like a bullet to someone of another hue/religion.

The enemy = those that have the gall to tell an African American that he/she should not be insulted by the remarks of Biden!

That is exactly why we are in Iraq right now!

Wake Up America! Wake Up!

Solly Mack....
"But it's the covert racism, in words and in actions, that escape attention because they do seem so acceptable. And the reason it seems so acceptable is because you grew up hearing non-whites being spoken of in that manner without ever once wondering about the "root" of it. Without ever once thinking of about that history behind it...and you didn't wonder because it just always seemed so "acceptable"
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
71. What people forget - or don't bother to think about
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 04:16 AM by Solly Mack
the victors didn't just write the history, they wrote the *standard* dictionaries as well (as you pointed out)...they shaped the culture, with all its biases, prejudices and stereotypes...and then they cry foul when someone calls them on it. That nice comfy world isn't the world they thought it was..and they get defensive.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #71
107. How right you are -- We need to start with a 21st Century

idea of the way race relations should work in this world.

In THIS century, it should be common knowledge that we don't see others as less than who we are.

That is how GW got into office. He played fear on the racial/religious issues of the day.

The power structure allowed him to get away with saying that the Christian Right was more important than any other way of thinking. So SAD.

They allowed him to get away with KATRINA. He would never have been allowed to get away with that if the victims had been White.

Shameful.

What damage that did to our country and to Race Relations.

The entire WORLD watched in horror as he was allowed to make Muslims "Bad People."
Now, instead of the rest of the world agreeing with his view of what defines a "terrorist" the rest of the world,including England" defines GW as a terrorist. And, he IS one.

The list and the beat goes on.



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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
94. great post
and i notice none of the defenders have responded. :applause:
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
95. Excellent post!
:applause:
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. I can find somethings I don't like about every race...
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
52. Yesterday....all my troubles...
When I was a young Marxist in the late 60s and early 70s and according to all my black friend even now, all whites are racist. By definition. ...and the ones who deny it are the worst of all. We are racist simply by being born on the high end of the un-level playing field, our sense of entitlement, the pluses we have in life, minorities don't have. That I can walk safely in a restaurant in East Texas and my black friends can't. ...and that I ASSUME that I can, that I am safe and accepted.

What is important is to see this and struggle with it, every day...with all our prejudices and biases. To be self-critical and self analytical. THAT is what white people who care, can do. They can be less racist. They can make it important in their lives to question all preconceptions about race and people. That's a "good" white person. White people who deny this, well...they have a long row to hoe...because for them the struggle isn't as important as being defensive and denying what is obvious all around us.
Madspirit
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #52
83. So I'm racist because I'm white.
Maybe I can walk safely in a restaurant in East Texas, but I can't walk safely in a club in East St. Louis. Does recognizing the realities of racial tension make me racist?
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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
54. Short answer
If you use race in a context other than a physical description, it's likely racist.

Here are articles by Tim Wise, he writes on that very topic. http://www.timwise.org/
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Dastard Stepchild Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
58. Well... if you credit the evolutionary biologists with their theory....
They would argue that humans, like their ape ancestors, are very keen to establish difference and exclude on the basis of this fact. Thus, it could be primitive instinct to be "racist" - if by racist you mean prone to exclusion on the basis of difference.

I love evolutionary biology. It's not something I am well-versed in, but it provides such interesting food for thought when thinking about human behavior. If you believe that the animal kingdom (and this includes the human animal) shares some common ground in behavior, it opens up some really great dialog about what this could mean for us as people.

I can't get all philosophical here, in part because I don't have the time to do it justice, but suffice it to say I am interested in exploring this idea further.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
60. ive seen a lot of that lately too. just some very sad ppl i guess
id just ignore it,
pointless to even try to talk to them about it when they display such close-minded behavior.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Who are they? The "THEM"
to whom you and Katherine refer??? :shrug:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
66. I'd tell you, if it wasn't against the rules.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
69. if you're a human being, you are a racist to at least some extent.
so- i'd use that as the first test.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
70. Is this an honest question? nt
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
100. Read the OP's posts and
decide for yourself.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. I sort of have
Karenina, thank you for all your efforts on this & other threads. I know it must be frustrating, but your posts have been very enlightening. Even if you can't reach a specific person, your posts can and do touch all the other people who read them.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. Thank you SOOO MUCH, Marie!
Your words are very deeply appreciated. Having read them I can sign off now with a renewed belief that my efforts on this board are not completely in vain. Thank you, again. :hug:
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
75. i operate under the belief that most white people are racist....
if they were not, things would be a lot different than they are.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
78. You use terms like:
Articulate", "eloquent", "well-spoken", "smart", "intelligent", "hard-working", "academic", "good student", "great leader", "helpful", "cooperative", "honest", "friendly" to describe Blacks. There may be more "compliments" that I haven't thought of.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
79. does the "n" word come to mind alot
then you are for sure an "r"
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. Not on DU. DUers happily defend white folks calling black folks "nigger".
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 01:08 PM by BlooInBloo
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
86. am i a racist if i dont support a black canidate because he/she
cant win in this country yet?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #86
110. Kucinich supporters can tell you all about the "can't win" syndrome
I don't believe in writing off any candidate at the primary stage on the assumption that he or she "can't win." The primary stage is when you should vote for the person you really want.

I'm not supporting Barack Obama because a) he's too conservative for me, and b) I wouldn't support anyone who is only part-way through his first Senate term. I see him as a prime example of celebrity politics.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
88. If you are human, you're racist.
That's all I've got to say on that.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Very true, regardless of race.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. If you cling to the belief that race has anything to do with the superiority
or inferiority of anybody or yourself.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
99. i dont think everyone is racist or bigots. i dont think i will be able to convince
anyone otherwise. but i know i dont have to prove anything to anyone either. i allow that if i can be nonracist then there are many that can be also.

i do know we are in a time where racism adn bigotry is raising its ugly head for all to see. some are proud and stating their right to bigotry. i think the last six years of the repugs power have allowed more feed into racism than anytime in recent history.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
103. Quite simply, a racist is a bully.
Racists come in all colors and creeds, and use their power within a group to drive out members of less powerful races.

Whether we're aware of them or not, we all hold various prejudices about various peoples; how we choose to respond is what matters.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #103
108. Well stated and welcome to DU rzr 77 nt
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Johnny Appleseed Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
105. mike said
Mike Malloy says that everyone has some racism, it's just that some are better at quelling it, subduing it, or whatever, than others. It's something you have to constantly fight against. Many people don't even try...
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
106. Some people are going to call every single white person alive
a racist, and if we deny it, we are just denying our true feelings of which we are, apparently, unaware.

But I say why let these extremists define racism so broadly? It gets watered down. I've seen "anti-semitism" thrown around too, so broadly that it loses its punch.

A member of the KKK is a racist. But a white liberal is not. Using the "secret guilt" meme against the white liberal is just going too far and shows personal self esteem problems. If you're going to go out of your way to be offended by anything any white person says, you're just playing up the victim card, seeing power in it.

I've read books by extemists on the left, regarding both racism and feminism, and have seen the uselessness of taking it so far you won't even allow those who believe you ought to be treated equally to be tarred with the brush of "racism" or "sexism."

It just turns white men more against everybody, or creates more freepish white men. Being born a white man doesn't make him racist or sexist any more than being born black or a woman means you can't be racist/sexist.



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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-05-07 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
109. If you say "Being in the presence of (name group) makes me
uncomfortable," then you're a racist.

It is not racist to say, "Being in the presence of Person XYZ makes me uncomfortable because he does creepy things." That's a judgment about an individual.

But to say that you won't go to a certain neighborhood or ride the bus or attend a certain school because being around African-Americans/Latinos/Asians/Middle Easterners/Native Americans "makes you uncomfortable," then you're a racist, because all of these groups are made up of individuals, some of whom may be creepy, but the majority of whom are not.
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