What if GM and Ford just go away, close, liquidate, get the hell out?

They decide they need billions in cuts AGAIN, so they start talking to the union? WTF?

They have let enough people go, they have cut wages, they have moved plants, they have asked for many concessions over the past 25 years, and they still can't get their books right...How about they just leave us alone.

I bet Toyota, Honda, Nissan...etc. would be more than happy to increase production to service the US markets. I say don't give back a penny more!!! Let them close, go out of business, disappear...I will never EVER buy one their cars, NEVER!!!

:mad:

While the Asian Big Three settle in 'right to work' states, shut out the unions, and pay their employees about $10/hour adding to the working poor and further eroding the working middle class.

I don't think that's a good plan.

cars per year, they will be able and willing to pay few more dollars per hour. No? I would think non American comanies are better to their workers...

That's why they are in such a financial mess in the first place.

Japanese auto companies get away with lowered labor cost, so they are more profitable

Thanks for playing.

After numerous repairs, my Ford fell apart at 76,000 miles.

My Subaru has over 150k with only $275 in repair bills (aside from regular maintenance).

But our personal experiences hardly matter. It is millions of consumers' experiences that matter.

Ford is sucking hind tit in that department, friend.

Honda and Toyota absolutely destroy domestic models in almost all categories.
Residual value for domestic cars (Chevrolet especially) are as low as it gets.

Domestic manufacturers manufacture shit. You can blame labor costs, but this is ultimately the reason.

We have several Fords ranging from a 1980 pickup to a 2001 pickup and several cars and trucks in between. One of our trucks has over 300,000 miles on it and it runs like a champ.

if a person will put a 5 year old ford product beside a 5 year old anything else and compare them they will see what I say about a ford being of higher quality bar none. New cars, trucks or old cars or trucks, just compare how they are built and they will have to say the ford is by far the bestest of the bunch.:hi:

but when your labor costs amount to about $70 an hour, there is going to be problems no matter what quality you produce.

Tell them to quit making ridiculous concessions and quit demanding wages the car makers can't afford. And tell the US car makers to quit giving out multi million dollar bonuses to their executives.

standards. They really are screwing themselves in the long run by fighting that.

Or at least cite a source for this contention.

The UAW does NOT design the cars. The UAW has NO say in what comes out of the Engineering departments at Ford, GM and Daimler-Chrysler.

Can you kindly explain your position?

senator Carl Levin from Michigan when it comes to increasing the CAFE standards. The unions have been fighting it for years.

I am not trying to interrogate you here, so please don't think i am being acrimonious.

Let me reiterate;

Would you be so kind as to cite a source for your contention that it is the Unions that are fighting an increase in CAFE standards. Carl Levin's voting record is NOT what you brought up to begin with.

Show me your reason for thinking this is the case and if it is legitimate, i'll concede your point in all caps!


on edit to add a "not"

Here's some examples of what you get but I'm surprised you don't already know the UAW's position on CAFE standards.


The UAW and Alliance of Automotive Manufacturers are among those who oppose CAFE standard increases, contending that increasing the standards will benefit foreign automakers who sell smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles. They contend additional gains in fuel economy can and should be achieved through research and development.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=12985

Recognizing the economic pain Senator Kerry's proposal would have brought to Michigan, the UAW and Democratic senators Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow fought to kill it on the Senate floor. In arguing against Kerry's bill, Levin correctly noted that the CAFE increase would benefit foreign carmakers at the expense of the Big Three.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/conda200407291301.asp

The UAW strongly opposes these CAFE bills for several reasons. First, we are deeply concerned that the stringent fuel economy improvements mandated by these
bills would impose enormous retooling costs on the auto manufacturers. GM, Ford and DCX cannot afford these costs because of their serious financial conditions and large retiree health care legacy costs. The net result is that the bills could lead to
further plant closings and job loss, as well as cut backs in or the elimination of health insurance coverage for 550,000 retirees and their families.

Second, the CAFE increases in some of these bills contain severe structural problems. Imposing a much higher flat mpg requirement on the combined car and light truck fleets would discriminate against auto companies whose product mix is more oriented towards light trucks. Furthermore, authorizing NHTSA to adopt an attribute-based CAFE system for passenger cars, without establishing an adequate anti-backsliding rule, would jeopardize small car production and jobs in the United
States.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:UeUgMgKotP8J:commerce.senate.gov/public/_files/Testimony_AlanReuther_UAW_FeinsteinCAFEHearingTestimony.pdf+CAFE+UAW&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=19&gl=us

lol....Fair enough. Now that you have given me an hours worth of homework, i'll have to get to it....at home.

seems to be about 55:1, near as I can tell, which is akin to what we saw in this country 50 years ago. Seems to me to be more than fair. I mean, if the average U.S. worker makes 70k/year, than the average CEo would make almost 4 million/year. Sure it's a big drop for them, but they'd still make so much more than the avg. American as to be well able to flaunt their wealth in front to of us peons. Then the "extra 285 million could be folded back into, oh...say healthcare, non-salary compensations, R&D, so that we might actually be competitive and *gasp* productive AND healthy.

Why is it that no one gets it that a healthy worker (physically and mentally) is a more productive worker? How many of us take longer to complete a project because we're worried about Mom's hip or son's braces or the next mortgage payment that we're barely able to afford. Fuck these swilling corporate pigs, and fuck the libertarians and market-repugs who say the market should determine how the poorest must live their lives.

and average worker is said to be only 10 to 1 (naturally, at the individual company level the gap usually depends on the size of the company, with big companies generally having somewhat higher gaps and smaller companies having lower gaps)

http://www.smbc-consulting.co.jp/company/solution/training/training_156.html

So you're saying that GM, Ford, and Chrysler in Michigan pay union wages but the foreign automakers put their plants in right-to-work states here and pay $10 or so an hour? That is the case now?



Cher

Toyota's wages for auto workers in the US are among the highest in the industry.

They're against it. Why?

They would have to "let people go, cut wages, and move plants", just like they've done over the past 25 years without doing it.

In-fucking-credible.

I have had it with them...I encourage everyone I know to NOT buy from them.

that he wondered if any of the top executives at the US car companies even bothered to go to a Honda or Toyota dealer and take a test drive just to see what the excitement was all about.

A few years ago on a consulting project at a GM design center, I noticed brand new a Toyota SUV in mid dissambly. No doubt being reverse engineered/studied.

I quietly chuckled about it, but really its quite smart as GM produces nothing but low level mediocrity from top to bottom.

I have, for most of the last 36 years.

You know what will happen if Ford and GM just chained the doors? A depression that would make 1929 look like the 1990's.

I'm not defending the industry or their practices. I am merely stating a fact.

The other domestic plants do not have the excess capacity to do that. Most car plants are now running at about 88% of capacity, and have been for more than a decade. Since Ford and GM run more than 50% of all U.S. plants, the math is simple.
The Professor

I have lived in Michigan all my life and I am experiencing first hand what the imports are doing to the American automakers. Are they out of touch on a lot of things? Sure. But THIS is the reality: There is a massive trade imbalance in the auto industry; the US market is flooded with Asian imports while the Asian markets are closed to the US automakers. Asian cars are built in the US but their parts are exported from Asia and the profits go back to Asia. They use non-union labor; their wages, retirement, and health care benefits do not compare. Meanwhile, millions of Americans who enjoy good wages, benefits, and retirement not to mention workplace safety and the 40 hour week that UNIONS fought for are happily buying imports without giving a damn about the imbalance.

Yes, I've heard "but my car was made in Canada." Canada does not have a trade deficit with the US AND their autoworkers are unionized. Want to buy an import? Buy a European import where the balance of trade is more fair.

This country is in hock up to its eyebrows to Asia and it's getting worse. I am all for a global economy but it's got to be fair. Why are people so opposed to manufacturing WORKERS (not executives) making a fair wage? Why are we letting Asian automakers bust unions and create a larger working poor? I don't get it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12801549/

>>
When Lin Hui and his wife went shopping in Shanghai for their first car, they splurged, spending $17,000 on their dream machine.

It was a Buick.

“It’s safe, it’s comfortable, and the look is beautiful,” Lin said.
>>

just to see what happens.

It'll be a long, long time before Detroit can convince me to give up my 10 year old Camrry, and when I do give it up, I'm buying a used Camry Solara convertible (which, by the way, are converted in California and they can't keep up with the demand).

Experience tells.

They have been there for years and years and is one of the most popular selling brands in China.

Thing is, a Buick made in Flint has no chance of making it to the Showroom floor in Beijing.

There's a dealership down the street that sells Acura, Volvo, Kia and Mitsubishi.

Let's skip Volvo (a European brand, although they seem to have closed up shop in Sweden) and Kia (100 percent Korean made) and look at the other two.

The Mitsubishis (except for the Raider pickup) are made in Normal, Illinois--a state without the Right to Get Fired law. The cars contain over 90 percent American content, including the engines and transmissions. The Mitsubishi Raider is built in Warren, Michigan, with the same parts content as the Dodge Dakota because that's what it is. Michigan, of course, is the last place in the world anyone would suggest implementing a Right to Get Fired law.

Honda spreads its manufacturing out over several states, but the main plant is in Marysville, Ohio--another state without the Right to Get Fired law. Parts content is over 90 percent, including the engines and transmissions.

pick up the slack, there's NO WAY they would ever employ even 1/2 of the several hundred thousand displaced workers.

The problems began many years ago when the BIG guys were the only game in town. YES the companies did commit to promises they now can't keep, and they were wrong to do so back when the promises were made.

One of the BIG committments that's draining millions is the defined pension plan. I read somewhere that at least 3 of every 5 people receiving pension benefits are the surviving spouses of former GM workers. These are people who NEVER even worked for the Company. I don't begrudge the beneficiaries, but I can see where this is a MAJOR problem for the companies today.

I wouldn't be so sure about the auto industry collapse triggering a recession of the magnitude you think it will. They've been outsourcing parts and assembly for decades now. When you couple that with the increased automation we've had in the last 30 years it really isn't the economic engine of the country the way it use to be.

When Chrysler almost went belly up in 1978, the unemployment in Detroit hit 30%. It wasn't that bad a percentage (granted, nationwide) in 1929.

Every time an autoworker looses his job, 10 jobs are lost at suppliers and at support industry such as grocers.

looks like it is time for a totally new corporate model that eliminates overpaid executive management that sells out the company's operations and employees to wall street.

They might use another name but they would still be in the game. I've seen this coming for a long time. They'll keep getting smaller and smaller here while they get bigger and bigger over there. Eventually they will file for bankruptcy to ditch their pension obligations. It's only a matter of time.

It will make the depression look like a market boom

Have you heard how horrid Toyota treats their workers? There was a story about it last week. Sounds pretty bad.

The American car companies are doing what they have to do to try to survive today. Yes, parts are built out of the country. Yes, sometimes the entire car is built out of the country. They have had to do that to try to be competitive.

The profits from the sale of those vehicles stay in America, which is where most of them are incorporated. Toyotas profits go elsewhere.

I won't have a car made by a foreign company. I think it's un-American. I see lots of smoking Toyotas, Nissans, Hondas, etc. driving around polluting our air, so I wonder how good they really are. I just sold a 2001 Mercury with well over 100,000 miles on it. It did not smoke, I never added oil between changes, it started every single time, and ran perfect. During my ownership we had zero problems with it.

Support America. Buy American.

in Mexico, right?

and not allowing it's employees to unionize, but not support Toyota and Honda for manufacturing here in the US and doing the same.

Fails miserably, but points for trying.

when it's the foreign companies who were undercutting their cost in the first place. If you buy foreign, you are supporting the decline of the American workers.

when it's the foreign companies who were undercutting their cost in the first place. If you buy foreign, you are supporting the decline of the American workers.

was built here. My neighbor's Nissan? Built here. The Ford across the street? In Sonora, Mexico.

Beat your head against another wall--I will NEVER buy an American car again until they are produced here, their quality drastically improves, and they give me a gazillion dollar rebate.

My experience tells me far more than a thousand of you ever could.

Sorry.

when buying from the Nissan in the states instead of the Ford factories here. This puts pressure for the big three to lower their labor costs, especially when you demand huge rebates. Companies need money to be able to pay their workers money.

The main problem is the labor costs. It isn't just the wages, but the pensions and healthcare obligations they have too.

The problem is that with the high cost of labor, US companies aren't competetive with foreign manufacturers who don't treat their workers as well. You are getting mad that the big 3 are lowering their labor costs to the levels of Japanese manufacturers, who seem to get all the praise.

Assembly line workers aren't the ones who stalled fuel efficiency, quality, safety,and emissions standards--the executives did.

Cry all you want about how horribly Toyota treats it's workers (and I still have yet to see a source, credible or not, for that allegation), I'm still driving a 10 year old Camry that has yet to be in the shop for anything but routine maintennce.

Convince me, but be warned--I'm a very hard sell. A source for your allegation would be a tremendous help.

but it's not going to be big enough to make or break the company

From a policially savvy consyumer's end, we see only the workers conceding common benefits. Let's make a GM exec pay for his own health care and not get paid leave. then I'll rethink the US mismanagement.

Unless there are some concessions, the company would be out of business and their wouldn't be any jobs at all. That is what forces the Unions to make concessions in the first place. Unless you want the government to subsidize GM, something has to give.

If they didn't have to compete with foreign manufacturers, the big three could just raise the price of their cars to cover the cost of labor, but it's a different ballgame today.

The execs would take a pay cut, but that sucks. If they are asked for a pay cut and a headhunter comes sniffing around then away they go.

The main problem is that Japan has nationalized health care and pensions and Detroit has defined benefit pensions. I heard the statistic that about $4,000 of each car is for pension benefits and healthcare. What industry would love nationalized healthcare? Auto industry. Then they get to dump all that future costs. (on edit - the $4000 is where the quality gap comes from nowadays. Fit and finish, soundproofing etc. are the first to go.)

Detroit just as much and it will take years, possibly decades, for them to overcome that.

Not just because of the disproportionate sales numbers. It will take me a minute to dig up the source but I will.

Edited for links:

Toyota recalls more than 750,000 SUVs, trucks
Problems with front suspensions may hinder steering
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7887155

Toyota Recalls 75,000 Prius Hybrids
Software glitch may make engine stall
http://www.autoweb.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/795

Toyota vehicle recalls double in 2005http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-12-01-toyota-recalls_x.htm

Toyota Recalls 880,000 SUVs & Pickupshttp://www.truckblog.com/story-305-toyota_recalls_880000_suvs_and_pickups

Toyota Recalls Vehicles Over Faulty Enginehttp://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=alerts_recalls&id=4375708

Toyota Recalls 160,000 Prius Hybrids http://cbs5.com/recalls/recalls_story_287113259.html

DON"T FORGET THE TOYOTA ENGINE SLUDGE PROBLEMS WHICH CAUSE ENGINE TO FAIL/DIE!

Toyota Motor Sales, Inc. ripoff Engine Oil Sludge Debacle consumer fraud Torrance California *Consumer Suggestion ..Charlene you must agreehttp://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff41001.htm

Toyota Prius Named in Patent Infringement SUIT!
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/02/prius_patent.html

Nary a recall or breakdown. Just sayin'

Thats all we need in michigan more unemployment:sarcasm:

and let it float away or crash into Canada. Then nobody in the US has to care in the least about our economy and the western states can drain the Great Lakes for drinking water as they so would love to do. Win win!

NOT.

which would bring the fudge industry to it's knees.
Then we would really be screwn!

However I would miss the UP. It is gorgeous up there.

:eyes:

Let's kill yet another American industry.

Just think how dandy it will be with tens of thousands out of work.

I love this idea.

What other American industries do you want to kill off?

By the way ... in what industry do *you* work? maybe that ought to be our next target.

:sarcasm: <---- just in case there are doubts in anyone's mind.

That would have a similar effect.

where profits are being sent out of the country, and one less industry that has strong union representation....(Wall Street gets sexually aroused at the mere thought---TPTB have had airline and auto unions at the top of their hit list for decades, and have stopped at nothing to plant anti-union memes all over the media and elsewhere)...

I'm not saying the big 2.5 are perfect (and they do have shitty, short-sighted leadership), but quality and reliability has gotten a lot better than in the past...this ain't the 80s anymore, but sadly the negative perceptions live on...It will be interesting to see how Toyota handles things in the future when their NorthAm workforce becomes as big and as senior as their U.S. competitors, with the massive healthcare/pension drag on the bottom line...Years ago, there was (and still is) a compelling argument for national healthcare, which none of the corporations seemed to be in favor of--you would think the auto industry and MI legislators would be storming congress to try to get something through now, instead of complaining that they cannot meet CAFE standards that are 15 years behind schedule, which they knew were coming anyway...

and as an aside, I saw the "union wages are killing the company" meme upthread (direct from the wall street journal op-ed), and i'm dismayed to read that at a liberal site...please tell me where you work so i can call up your boss and tell them you're hurting the company bottom line with your overpaid wages...Waste needs to be cut at ALL levels before trying to squeeze the last drop of blood from the union, and workers are tired of it...That's why so many are taking the buyouts

If the companies can't survive, then everyone loses. But if the workers need to give something back from their far higher than market wages, in order for all of them to thrive, then they probably should.

From what I was reading, this sounds necessary and warranted.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8POGPL80.htm

instead of relying on Microsftean obstinacy and market clout, I'd be able to find some sympathy.

No, they can both go to hell. And may one of the truly innovative engineers who work there start a new company that rises from the ashes, and provides jobs making cars worth making.

that your Japanese companies don't. Put them out of business and all those retirees lose their coverage.

Edwards has it right: provide economical, well-managed national healthcare coverage without HMO CEO's getting over a BILLION dollars in comp (seriously!), relieve American companies of this handicap, and let them compete on a level playing field.

but as to cafe standards - they should quit their whining and start engineering.

if they had an ounce of sense they'd figure out where the market is going, and get there first.

I could never own a Japanese car. I don't like them. In fact, every Japanese car I've ever been around has been a POS. I don't know where they got such stellar reputations. My ex's Nissans and Toyotas were awful while my Mustang never had a day's worth of problems until it was 12 years old.