Illegal Immigration / English As Our Official Language

I'm really frustrated with the position most elected Democrats (on the national level) seem to take on these issues. There is nothing wrong or racist about wanting to get control of our borders, and wanting to stop the flow of illegal immigrants. I feel for the majority of these people who just want a better life - but they depress the wages of poor/working class citizens that our Party is supposed to represent, put a big strain on our public education and health systems, as well as our jails. As for the people who are already here I don't want a police state where he round up people at home in the dead of night. We can't do it logistically anyway. What I do want is to crack down on employers, and start the process of many illegals deciding to head home. When it comes to these quasi-amnesty programs being suggested I have to ask - where is the incentive for more people NOT to come here? Get in and you have it made, right? And what about countries like Mexico that will not provide a decent life for most of its citizens? Why is it the obligation of our country to be their safety valve? We have people in New Orleans - AMERICANS who need help. That's who I am concerned with.

In terms of English as our official language - I believe strongly in learning other languages. I love to travel, and find other cultures fascinating. People have every right to speak whatever they want at home or in public for that matter with friends, family, etc. But what is the problem with uniting all our people with a common language? We say immigrants want to learn English (and I believe they do) - so why do official/public documents, signs, etc have to be in any other lanuage? Especially signs - it's usually just a few words! And what about election ballots? You have to speak English supposedly to become a citizen - but you need a bilingual ballot?

I really believe that the politically correct b.s. that has infected our Party for years is still a big problem. Let's not kid ourselves - main street American switched Parties this past November because of Iraq and the corruption of the Republicans in Congress. They still think many positions our Party takes on issues like I have mentioned here are elitist, out of touch, etc. And they are right.

I was an English as a Second Language Teacher and let me just tell you that these families are very extended. Do you really see the need to harass elderly people, grandparents, into having a command of the English language that would enable them to vote fairly? Do you speak another language? Do you know how hard it is to learn English? Do you realize that some of these people are not fluent in their first language, never mind a second language?

Hey, if people want to push this issue I will be able to get a job. How do your feel about paying for all those ESL classes? If we make it mandatory that all these people learn English we are going to have to provide classes.

nt

Most people have no idea what is involved with language studies. I was amazed years ago when I learned that my daughter's high school offered a Spanish class open for Spanish-speaking students only. My daughter explained that they were fluent speakers, but had never studied the grammar, etc! Blew my mind, and made me much more sensitive to the issue.

My daughter has had years of German, French and Spanish, and she says English is by far the hardest language to learn.

My grands are learning Spanish in pre-k and k. They have learned more the past six months than I--too old--would learn in the rest of my lifetime. I have great sympathy for the older immigrants trying to cope in an English-speaking environment.

That said, I would love to see you fully-employed. Classes for ESL are soooo important and should be available to all who need it!

otherwise, it sure would be nice.

I always envy/admire those who are bilingual.
How nice it must be.

ITs hard as crap to learn a different language,
although small children seem to find it easier.

I say open the borders to everyone who isn't a felon in a country where the legal system isn't horrifically corrupt and little flags for everyone. Even after the years of hellish procedure and complex forms required for my greencard, I say that the system is so broken that anyone who wants to come here and work and pay taxes and participate should be welcomed with open arms. and if that means that English won't be the dominant language anymore, well, I'm a smart guy, I can learn anything. bring it on, world. let's get this country going.

Not to mention, I'm the descendants of Irish potato famine refugees. My ancestors weren't welcome either; not by a long shot.

What gives me the right to tell someone what language to speak? Ever since I was little, everything was printed in English and Spanish. Why should it change now?
And when a citizen wants/begins to clean toilets for $5.15 an hour, then I'll believe that illegals are the ones depressing wages and not the employers.

The employers are to blame, I never meant that they are not. I really should have said the pursuit of illegal immigrant labor depresses wages instead of just illegal immigrants depress wages. But it would not have made a difference for most of the folks here - they think even a discussion of the issue is racist, etc.

if we are busy hating and fighting each other,
the Gov can continue to steal the national treasury,
make wars, cut social programs, keep wages down,
and steal other countries oil.

Oh, and torture and wiretap us.

SO, the gov loves it that we are worried about
some "illegal" immigrants or even non english
speaking persons.

Divide and conquer.

:thumbsup:

:applause:

you may not know.

Forget about equal access to the law. :eyes:

In the portions of America that we stole from Mexico, Spanish is co-equal with English as a national language per the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. But, that's just a treaty, nothing we normally concern ourselves with.

Gack.

/typo

The new Republican campaign stragegery is going to be about immigration and I guess we are going to see a lot of these posts coming our way in the future before the election. They've worn out all their other memes.

I'm stringing my bow and sharpening my arrows.:-)

History is full of conflicts, winners and losers. When it comes to our Southwestern States I have news for you: WE'RE NOT GIVING IT BACK. So get over it. I'm sure the poor folks living there just pine away wishing they could be part of Mexico.

As far as our nation being made of immigrants - thanks for the relevation. I happen to be all for LEGAL imigration. And when we had masses of immigrants during the period my ancestors came over most went through Ellis Island and were checked for diseases, etc. But I know that's Fascist, right? And we didn't have a welfare state then either. Which I'm in favor of - for CITIZENS. Our public heath system, schools, and jails are under enormous pressure because of illegal immigrants. But who cares, every arguement begins and ends with "We're a Nation Of Immigrants". Isn't that right?

Our public heath system, schools, and jails are under enormous pressure because of illegal immigrants. But who cares, every arguement begins and ends with "We're a Nation Of Immigrants". Isn't that right?

Do you have any actual facts to back them up with?

And btw, since when does respecting the language and culture of the people whose land you nicely took away amounts to GIVING IT BACK?

As for being all for legal immigration, I'll bet our ancestors felt the same way when they returned runaway slaves back to their LEGAL owners.

Why do you think states are suing the Federal Government for the cost of illegal immigration? You want actual facts? Read any good newspaper and you will get your facts. You know what I don't think you could care one way or the other - it's all theory and how the world should be for you, right?

I respect all languages. The language of this country is English. Citizens have to be able to speak it to become citizens. You have to be a citizen to vote. But ballots should be in different languages?

Wow, so some laws in the past have been wrong - let's scrap 'em all.

The last good newspaper, The Los Angeles Times, has been sold to corporate interests. However, if you are really interested in a research institution that has tried to present unbiased studies on the subject, try this website.

http://pewhispanic.org/

After you spend a week absorbing all the information that is there, get back to me and then we will have a real debate.

Corporate interests are for more illegal immigrants, not less. Just thought I would let you know.

But spelling be demand!


:rofl:

That didn't take long.

some time spent on writing this thread, and I wholeheartedly agree with it, but, when it comes to two topics of discussion, racism and illegal immigration, it seems the ability to use logic is temporarily lost. Common sense, which is usually in abundance here, does not apply. Good luck with this. Thanks.
quickesst

and the Constitution.

:hi:

Yes, I guess we forgot about all the rights the Constitution bestows on people who are in the country illegally. Talk about creative interpretation.

But I gave it a shot anyway. Let them wallow in their political correctness - at least we know we're right.

Just a guess.





Makes me think of this:

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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It's been happening since our first ancestors walked out of Africa lo those many eons ago. Why? Because, maybe there was a drought and there wasn't enough food or water to feed everyone. Maybe there was conflict and strife, so rather than indulge in a war; they left. Maybe they left for the same reasons that we leave today, simple curiosity about what is around the next bend in the river. Who knows.

Migration is a part of the human condition. Whether it is emmigration or immigration makes no difference. What is unnatural and too recent is the concept of political borders that need "defending." After all, I'm of English/German ancestry; and gee Native Americans haven't insisted that I learn Cherokee, the language of the folks who were living here when the English immigrants arrived.

So no I don't favor English as an official language. I also have taught ESL and have come to know some of these wonderful extended families. Learning the second language is a matter of 1) how young you are; 2) how social you are. If you are very old or very private/shy, learning the language of your new enviornment is exceedingly difficult. While you might get your order right in a restaurant, you might never learn to figure out tax forms, nor your will.

You've got a very unrealistic expectation there.

edit: Reason 3) how much schooling you have in your first language. As someone noted above, some of these folks had very little schooling in their countries of origin. I'm talking as little as 3or 4 years of school. And those are the adults. I'm not saying it's impossible to learn English if that is your situation, but it does put a double burden on adult learners.

Sadly, too many English Firsters, have no knowledege of any of this.

As to the horror of signs in other languages...don't attempt to read them if you don't like them.

According to the polls, being "PC" would be just what you and Lou are being, while the ones speaking out against racism and xenophobia are being terribly unPC.

voting and those brown people would know their place.

I think I have to hide this thread. Noches.

Most English scholars would disagree. Be careful what you wish for.

Otherwise, the immigration issue is another one of the Republican party's strategy to get your vote on a single issue that they have no intention of doing anything about. It's a variation on Nixon's southern strategy to appeal to people's latent bigotry.

The rich Republicans who are trying to get your vote have no intention of doing anything meaningful about the so-called immigration problem anymore than they are going to send black people back to Africa, overturn Roe vs. Wade or tell Lesbian Mary Cheney that she can't have a baby out of wedlock.

You guys are just being played by the same old baiting that appeals to your bigotry. In the meantime, those same people shouting all that indignation about all things moral and legal, will still have gay sex with prostitutes, will still get abortions for their wives and girlfriends and will continue to hire undocumented workers because they don't believe in what they preach. They only say those things to get your vote.

Wise up.

Thing is, I don't have a problem with immigrants taking American jobs or speaking another language. The issue I have with them is, the time it takes for them to assimilate into American culture, just like all other immigrants had to do. I want America to maintain certain customs, like one family to house, completing high school, etc., which seem to be less of a priority to certain immigrants. I'm probably going to get flamed to death but these just happen to be my personal feelings that apply to people regardless of race.

I too would have liked to have owned a house in the past and finished college, but my finances never permitted it. Has it occurred to you maybe that they are striving for the same things with a bigger handicap to achieving them than the average white American?

I just get irritated when people do not finish high school, or push their kids to do so, for lack of respect for education. We are fortunate to have that public education available to us and should take advantage of it.

As far as affording residence goes, I think this is part of the financial problems that arise. The only way people can afford to work for low wages is by having many people live in the same house. It's not their nationality but their living requirements that allows them to work for a low rate. And I really can't blame them for it. Most communities have housing regulations that restrict too many people from living in one place, but these communities do not enforce the laws.

It's not easy paying rent for $6/hr but possible.

or what language people speak? In my area, a lot of kids drop out of school, have parents who don't respect education, and many live with multiple generations (and friends) in the same small house. All of the ones I know come from families who have been in America for many, many generations. :shrug:

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/printer_1200924.php

Immigration no threat to English use in U.S.: study
By REUTERS
Sep 13, 2006, 19:00 GMT

PHOENIX - U.S. citizens concerned that Latino immigrants will have them singing 'The Star-Spangled Banner' in Spanish can rest easy, according to an academic study published on Wednesday.

A report in the Population and Development Review found that far from threatening the dominance of English, most Latin American immigrants to the United States lose their ability to speak Spanish over the course of a few generations.

The study by sociologists Frank Bean and Ruben Rumbaut of the University of California, Irvine, and Douglas Massey from Princeton, drew on two surveys investigating adaptation by immigrant communities in California and south Florida.

It concluded that by the third generation, most descendants of immigrants are 'linguistically dead' in their mother tongue.


_______________________________________________

Every single one of the immigrants you know never completed high school or never assimilated?? Maybe it is linked to the socio-economics of your area cause where I live, most of the "immigrants" own mayor business. As a matter of fact, in the hospital I work 4 out of 5 doctors are immigrants.

If undocumented immigrants are more educated than the rest of us where you live then that's wonderful.

"undocumented" to you or just the "brown" ones? I say this cause you didn't mentioned the immigrants you were talking about were "undocumented". You might want to specify.
I notice people who talk (actually whining) about undocumented immigrants do not report them to the authorities but rather blame them.

arguments. 99 times out of 100, a person bringing culture into a debate about immigration is a racist.

99 out of 100 huh?

The vast majority of those who bring culture into a debate about immigration are talking about their fears of American becoming less white. There is no set American "culture" to speak of. We have been routinely shaped by new rounds of immigrants. My Polish ancestors didn't speak English in their first generation and even most of the second so I don't expect anything differently from Mexican immigrants.

I'm not American but we have similar issues in Britain. People who are poor are more likely to live in overcrowded conditions, drop out of school to earn money, etc. It's not a matter of 'priorities' except inasmuch as if you have to make the choice between eating and getting a full education, you will probably choose eating as more urgent.

When immigrants are poor, they get sneered at for living in bad conditions, as though they want to. When they improve their economic position (as many ultimately do), they get accused of 'taking our jobs and our houses', etc, and of being 'economic migrants' rather than 'real refugees'.

ask others to learn the English language when our own President can't seem to have a grasp on that language.

You should be grateful you speak English. Can you imagine being discriminated against and not find laws in a language you can understand? Or that one day you realized that you gave away your life cause you didn't understand the papers you just signed? Or that you could not complaint about an injustice cause you didn't have any representation? That your employer made you work 80 hours in a week at less than the minimum cause you didn't understand you job description? Things like this don't just happen to "illegals" cause there's lots of American citizens who's first language isn't English.

in first generation immigrant enclaves. Why is it only the Spanish speaking ones that are the ones criticized?

they are the ones being picked on, unfortunately.

Nevermind we have Russians, Bosnians, Hmong, Rade, and various African languages too.

immigrants? Our propaganda spewing press. Trust me when you throw out the last Hispanic, then the other ones will get the magnifying glass treatment. Elitists always need a scapegoat.

A diversity of languages does not. Unlike regulating immigration to a rate at which job creation can keep pace, creating an official language would not tangibly improve citizens lives one bit.

The official language BS is simply scapegoating.

I've wanted to say this for a while, but I am sure I will be labeled a racist. I work for a small life insurance brokerage in Massachusetts. I deal with immigrants all the time and even if they don't speak alot of english we find a way to muddle through and find a way. Being in Mass means immigrants of many different backgrounds. We have alot of folks that come here to go to school and then stay. The only group that asks me for someone who speaks their language are hispanic immigrants and probably once or twice a day when I say I don't have someone who speaks spanish they hang up, not even bothering to try. I even had one man yelling at me in broken english ( yes really yelling) demanding to know WHY I didnt have someone who spoke spanish. We are a small 3 person office. Myself, my boss and a part-time college student. None of us speaks spanish. My boss speaks a bit of German since his wife is a German immigrant.

If you move to a country be willing to try learn the language, even if it is difficult sometimes.

Excuse me while I go put on my flame-resistant suit.

but ignorant.

Ever heard of the word Ethnocentrism?

Maybe that person was yelling at you cause after paying so much money for life insurance,he would expect to talk to someone he could understand. Did you ever thought about that?

He had not even applied for a policy yet. And no, I am not ignorant. If you think it is okay for someone to call and yell at me because I don't speak their language, then I would say you are the ignorant one. I spend alot of time working through questions with people who speak broken english. People from every country imaginable. We find a way.

They live in the greatest country on earth, probably are quite well off also. But they hate their country, it's culture, Western Civilization in general really. Even though those things have given them everything they have. They think it's our obligation to take in every poor or oppressed person on the planet who decides they want to come here. They think if 3 people in NYC want a ballot in Esperanto then the city should spend millions of dollars to do it. In short, they have lost touch with reality.

LOOK OUT!!! TERRA!!! TERRA!! TERRA!!

used to be a penal colony. You know, one giant jail. So was Australia.

They think it's our obligation to take in every poor or oppressed person on the planet who decides they want to come here.

Do be careful about how you talk about our poor or oppressed bretheren. Not all of us came here because we thought we had won the lottery. Some folks don't have a choice. It's either the gallows or taking your chances on life in an unknown environment.

Regardless of how we all got here, we have to make the best of it. Sometimes civic matters, like voting, are more important than our respective language abilities.

There are legitimate cases for that. But I ask you does this country have an obligation to every person who wants a better economic life for themselves and their family?

:rofl:

by writing "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." at its base.

The fucking liberal elitists have no respect for our country and what it stands for.

what a pant load of crap. You must be thrilled to have Trancredo (republic CO) running for President.

for different reasons. I don't think is the right way to deal with situations. At least, I try to understand where they are coming from and what is their motive for their frustrations. You won't see me writing in a message board that some Hispanic guy yelled at me cause I didn't know how to speak Spanish. And how Hispanics don't want ti learn English. That to me is ignorance.

You don't think they had to deal with bigots too?

but Puerto Ricans. Puerto Ricans are citizens, from a part of this nation that speaks Spanish. That doesn't necessarily mean they should expect Anglos in Massachusetts to speak Spanish, but it does point to the "non-black and white-ness" of this issue.

What do we do about the fact that there is a territory of this nation, located very near the mainland, where Spanish is the lingua franca. I know that most people think of this issue in terms of Mexican immigrants, but they are not the only Spanish speakers. Some are citizens.

When I worked in Chelsea, most of my co-workers were Puerto Rican. I remember one night going to a bar with them for a drink after work. This jerk bartender insisted on seeing green cards before he'd serve them. Needless to say, they didn't have green cards because they weren't immigrants. So the jerk lost our business when we went to another bar, a Puerto Rican-owned bar. Lot of people don't realize there are native-born US citizens for whom English is a second language.



Not flaming, btw, just pointing out the complexity of the issue.

On matters of civics or health and safety I think information should be available to as many people as possible at least in writing and with translaters available for serious issues. The point I was trying to make is that I live in a place with many many different types of immigrants. I like immigrants, I think they add to our society, but I also think that to live and function in a new land you need to be at least trying to learn the language. That doesn't mean putting aside your culture, it just means you have to learn to function in the place you are choosing to live. I would feel the same if it were myself moving to another country. My problem isn't with people who speak very little english, rather it is with those who aren't willing to meet me part way in communicating.

You brought the subject up so you bring the proof.

I would also make the suggestion that citing Rush Limbaugh isn't going to cut it. Try a source that has no agenda.

Random little stories with "everyone knows," "my friend said," or the infamous "well, I heard" really doesn't impress us either. Again, you brought it up, so you need to back up your claims with citations. Suggesting I go grab a newspaper isn't backing up your claim.

I never have listened to that windbag in my life. I do happen to read the NY Times every day - sorry I don't have a photographic memory to tell you the date and page of when I last read that a state is suing the Fed over this issue. If you think millions of poor illegal immigrants have no effect on our public systems then dream on. You don't want proof and you know it - you're not that open minded.

Enjoy your stay here.

My bushbot radar is getting better and better. Gone before 30 posts!

Enjoy your stay.

The majority of citizens don't speak proper english,
but we are going to declare it the official language?

Shzizzle!

*******QUOTE*******
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=589

Broken Record
Lou Dobbs' daily 'Broken Borders' CNN segment has focused on immigration for years.

But there's one issue Dobbs just won't take on.

By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

.... For more than two years now, Dobbs has served up a populist approach to immigration on nightly segments of his newscast entitled "Broken Borders." He has relentlessly covered the issue, although hardly from a traditional news perspective -- Dobbs favors clamping down on illegal immigration, and his "reporting" never fails to make that clear. He has covered the same issues, and the same anti-immigration leaders, time after time after time. In recent months, Dobbs has run countless upbeat reports on the "citizen border patrols" that have sprung up around the country since last April's Minuteman Project, a paramilitary effort to seal the Arizona border.

But there's one thing Lou Dobbs won't do. No matter what others report about the movement, Dobbs has failed to present mounting and persistent evidence of anti-Hispanic racism in anti-immigration groups and citizen border patrols. ....

********UNQUOTE*******
**********QUOTE***********
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17104568&BRD=2290&PAG=461&dept_id=569392&rfi=6

Border Patrol chief doesn’t want Minutemen near agents (Laredo, Texas)

LAREDO MORNING TIMES ^ | 08/24/2006 | MIGUEL TIMOSHENKOV

The head of the Border Patrol said Wednesday he doesn’t want members of the Minuteman Project working near his agents when they come to the Laredo area next month. The civilian group, which reports illegal immigrants to immigration authorities, is expected to start patrolling the border in the Laredo area on Sept. 11 and continue through Nov. 7.

Acting Chief Patrol Agent Reynaldo Garza of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Laredo Sector said he can’t prevent the civilians from coming to Laredo, but said they won’t be allowed to interfere with official business. ....

Esquivel said that if U.S. citizens should have any trouble with a member of the Minuteman Project, he or she should call the sheriff’s department or other law enforcement authority.

State Rep. Richard Raymond deplored the group’s plan to come to Laredo.

“They don’t have anything to do with this community,” Raymond said. “Here, we reject the racism they practice.” ....


(Miguel Timoshenkov may be reached at (956) 728-2583 or by e-mail at timo1@lmtonline.com)

***********UNQUOTE*********


*******QUOTE*******

http://iapprovethismessiah.com/2006/08/moons-paper-and-minutemen.html

Wonkette: if the Border Patrol is short handed, why not call out the Minutemen? You know, the more-bark-than-bite nationalist “movement” that, according to the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center, Jerry Seper and the Washington Times largely invented out of the ether? Mind you, we’re not complaining. We’re big fans of making mountains out of molehills...

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=635

Anti-Immigration Movement

Newspapers Inflated Minuteman Numbers

, Report Finds

Moon's paper and the Minutemen

The report, "Creating the Minutemen," is based on an American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) analysis of 581 articles and editorials printed in major U.S. newspapers between January 2005 and February 2006. The ACLU has been highly critical of the Minutemen, and ACLU volunteers closely monitored the group.

The first of those articles, "Volunteers Set to Monitor Border Crossings," by Jerry Seper of the hard-right Washington Times, reported that 240 volunteers had signed up. By early March, Seper was reporting that the number of volunteers had "more than tripled," came from every state, and included 16 pilots with aircraft.

During the last two weeks of March 2005, the media hype shifted into overdrive. Fifteen journalists reported the Minuteman Project had signed up "at least 1,000 volunteers." The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin ran a March 23, 2005, article headlined "2,000 volunteers expected for Minuteman Project."


********UNQUOTE*******

*******QUOTE*******


BoingBoing MM-"Wetbacks" http://www.boingboing.net/2005/04/15/snapshots_of_volunte.html


(direct to wetback:

Boston Globe/Vermont: http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2005/10/16/volunteers_get_cold_reception_in_vermont?mode=PF

WashPost/Hate-State: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/30/AR2005103000822.html

Pro-MM / LoneWacko: http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/004214.html

WashPost MM-Go-Home editorial: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/12/AR2005111200954.html

Slave flags: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html

Austin councilman Go Back to MX resolution opposing MM: http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/12/17minutemen.html

and there's really nothing you can do about it.

That's the problem with these nativists, they have this fantasy about what they think this country should be like, and they talk and act as if there's anything they can do about it.

But they can't change the realities that exist here.

Sure, go to Utah and English is pretty much all you hear.

But in the most vibrant, creative and economically productive parts of this country, you'll hear lots of languages, English and Spanish mainly, but others too.

And that's what makes places like NYC and Miami and LA so cool, much cooler than Salt Lake City or any other all-white English only place...

As for this: Why is it the obligation of our country to be their safety valve? maybe part of the answer is that it is exactly US policies, under both Dems and Repubs (specifically, pressuring govts to adopt neoliberal restructuring), that create situations in which Mexico and other countries need safety valves.

that puts profit above labor concerns, not the individuals trying to make a go of it with any means possible. This includes concerns for both the US and the unauthorized worker, both of whom are exploited and imperiled under this context.

I understand your concern, mind you, but people go where the jobs are. And where their families are. Unauthorized immigrants (as far as I can surmise) are most likely crossing the border for job opportunities or to reunite with family members that are already here. NAFTA was supposed to help buoy the Mexican economy, but I don't think the infrastructure was what it needed to be to make truly significant gains. (I refer to Mexican immigrants because this is where the lion's share of unauthorized immigrants migrate from http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/Ill_Report_1211.pdf)

I don't blame the families (US or Mexican) for doing what they need to do to put food on the table. That's survival. I do, however, mourn the loss of a strong labor movement that seeks to protect workers. Wages have fallen and jobs have been lost, but I don't know how much of that can be blamed on unauthorized workers from other countries.

Here are some interesting articles that address this concern. The list is not exhaustive, though I tried to get a variety of perspectives, but can be used as food for thought:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=2314f86f5f3affb4&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114477669441223067-sEhMH8CUN7F7ukBMWULwRxqTLNU_20070413.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
http://www.labor.ca.gov/panel/impactimmcaecon.pdf

cheers!

I don't fault illegal immigrants I fault illegal immigration. But you know and I know that some of the people on this Board don't care about any of that. They have a utopian view of a world with no borders, no nationalities, etc. And that's all that matters to them.

Perhaps the only acceptable "nationality" is your version of Americana? What I can tell from this thread is:

You want immigrants to "assimilate" and declare that English is the "language of our country" (paraphrased) and that this land is "ours" (whatever that means).

So basically you want "no nationalities," except what you consider properly "American." Right? Or not?

After all, it was the close runner-up language in the colonies.

And Spanish was the language of California until the Anglos showed up.

last week, looking to buy homes. They have their tax id numbers. The government gladly allows them to be here illegaly but lets them obtain tax id's to pay taxes, anywhoo, one makes 22.00 an hour working for the union and the other gentleman makes 25.00. How is that suppressing wages?

what suppresses wages in my opinion, is the lack of education for illegals and citizens.

Chock up one more thing our government does that's wrong. If you think most illegal immigrants pay taxes (aside from sales tax) and make that kind of money you're sadly mistaken.

I've been selling real estate for going on ten years and I have seen the majority pay taxes, through fake(invented) ss #'s and tax id's. 95% of my clientele is Hispanic, or Illegal as you like to call them. How close do you realistically work with the Hispanic community?

If they make $22 and $25 per hour, they have jobs that a citizen or a legal worker didn't get.

There are a finite number of jobs in this economy. Your illegal friends have two of them, that your unemployed legal friends do not.

NO sweetie its a W-7 form thats in Spanish at the IRS and all they have to do is go in there and fill it out and the IRS issues them a tax id, legal or not, in turn this is given to employers to use as their identification number. As far as legal friends, those jobs are there, if they want to be lazy and not take them, somebody will.... And please don't patronize calling them my illegal friends, you sound racist.

without regard to whether they are undocumented or not . . .

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf

We've never needed one before. I don't believe it would "unite us" in any kind of meaningful way.

Frankly, it sounds like just so much feel-good (for some) legislation that would create a lot of problems and do little else. Why would I support that?

So, "why do official/public documents, signs, etc have to be in any other lanuage?" So that we have a populace that knows what the heck is going on. That's a GOOD thing.

Don't you think that Hmong families should be able to fully understand issues they're voting on? Shouldn't kids with home languages other than English have the same access to rules and safety information as anyone else?

If you think that making small allowances that help people is elitist and out of touch, I can't say much else. And "main street America" can pretty much cram their collective opinion.

Seems like McDonalds, the grocery stores and
dept stores are all too happy to provide Spanish.

What kind of federal law do you think
is going to pass that can get by
all of those lobbying interests?

and that doesn't benefit us, it benefits the wealthy
corporate interests.

Its not about DEM OR GOP, its about CORP.

While the Gov supresses our wages,
they meddle in Mexico's elections, so that
they can keep up the heavy flow of illegal immigrants.

It hurts the workers in the US,
and its bad for families in Mexico.

It would be great if they had an economy there.

Hey, didn't we take some of their territory?

elitist and out of touch

First off, most times the children of immigrants will be fluent in English, and the grandchildren will speak only English. Second, most immigrants genuinely want to learn English, and make an attempt.

Second, even those who don't speak English can be good citizens. My dad's family came here in the 1760's. My dad was the first in his family to speak English as his mother tongue. I'm the first in that line to speak no German. Are we bad citizens? We paid taxes, fought in the wars and voted, are we not Americans? Why is it that speaking one dialect of German instead of another is the defining criteria for being an American.