I want to, expect to win the war on "terror".

I do. And we all know the war in Iraq had nothing to do with that aim.

We are or are about to commit 600 billion dollars - getting real close to a TRILLION dollars - for what???

There is clearly only one way we can "win" - and that is to take our money off the table. Make sure radical factions can never use our money against us ever again. If they want to act like 7th century countries - we can accomidate them. In fact we can make them moot.

This can be done - I know it can.

In 1979 it was estimated to cost about 178 billion dollars for the capital necessary to replace opec oil production consumed domestically with a synthetic (this is from my memory). So, you have to index 1979 dollars and recalibrate for 2007 consumption - and then subtract the technological gains (and trust my memory).

Carter knew these factors. He was a smart man. He formed, and quickly got the attention of the oil companies I might add - something called "The United States Synthetic Fuels Corporation". Formed in 1979 under Carter and promptly closed in 1981 or 1982 under Reagan. This has to be revisited right now. It will not impact distribution or marketing and will help in supply confidence. Oil companies will not be any more adverse to this than they were in 1979. And in 1979 - after that last embargo - they were OK with the concept on domestic synthetic product.

There is something else about this - money has a velocity - it is called "velocity of the dollar". A dollar kept in circulation is worth 4 dollars. A dollar that leaves circulation has no residual value at all. Could be great for our blue collar work force. And they haven't had a break in a long, long time.

This is probably not the answer for our environment - but it could well stop a third world war - and frankly if we can't stop that, the environment really doesn't mater so much.

In 15 years we won't be using petroleum as a primary fuel, I don't think. But we better get from here to there first, too.

Joe
The answer to this is so clear -

All we have is a Reign of Terror, thanks to El Diablo.

Isnt that a movie???

terror is everything that threatens stupid people.

The war on terror must protect us from the middle ages and the black death,
but first it must reproduce the conditions.

It is ok to disagree - but you didn't read it thru.

And I did hit on concepts - fairly complicated - with passing reference - but I really don't like long posts (or having to type too much).

There isn't any doubt that there are some radical groups that don't like us. That they killed some of us. And that the score needs to be settled - it just does.

But I do NOT want a third world war over this - and it can be avoided. And if we are not careful, that is exactly what is going to happen.

Joe

I no longer have any doubt that those *radical groups* are the *bush republicans*.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8585976043115686394

My concern is that innocent arabs are taken to task for domestic terrorism.

We make war, that's all we make besides blame for our war.

My slant by definition is pro - American - those radical groups - will include any country that cannot control its populace - any groups that committ anti-american acts.

So that includes Saudi Arabia - by definition.

Never included Iraq. Certainly did Afghanistan.

Point is - we never had to use war to defend ourselves (except against Afghanistan) - we just need to take our monies away from them - and we can do that.

You are wrong about the country, that we have to "make war" - B*sh did that all by himself. We (the country) are a lot smarter than that.

Joe

I hear you, but what the US exports in fact is something different, and you have been immersed in
a pool of patriotic media that has misrepresented the history of the nation as one of peaceful approaches,
when in fact, the nation has been in constant war, exporting it all around the world as the principal world
terrorist, this year, like last year, liek the year previous, and on and on and on back to world war 2 when
the military took over the government.

There was a period there where it all looked benign, but that's over. Its really tragic, that for all
the big talk, its down to nationalism and i-got-mine'ism... but its all 'our way of life' stands for,
all that they are defending with the big guns and all... the right to keep forecourt petrol as the
principal world fuel, or biodeisel, just anything that is liquid and controllable by the militarists.

The domestic record of imprisoning black people looks more like apartheid, if we want to look at policy in
terms of what kind of evil government wages a systemic war on its own people for being black or poor,
but the stats don't lie:

http://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking06/7Million.html

Yeah, I guess I am patriotic and all that - but I am pretty practical.

What I was talking about has nothing to do with what I read -

In 1979 - the last embargo - I was in my last year at business college and working for dad - and he was a director of an oil company - I really do know exactly what I am talking about in real terms.

He said something to me once about patriotisim - he was a fighter pilot once - he said that patriotisim lasts just until that time that the first bullet wizzes past your head. Then your on your own.

Joe

I have a strong belief that we have a more important interest in what happens in Africa right now - just a selfish interest. And I have no problem with the country interjecting itself in a self serving way - that is what they are supposed to do. And I do have a problem with judging the performance of the country as a whole on the past six years administration. We have had a long history - and we have a long history facing us.

But make no mistake - this is a VERY dangerous moment here - and we don't exactly have the best mind working on the problem, either.

If you do think this is a Muslim, religious kind of thing - not at all. It is about the best interest of the country. And I strongly believe it is in the best interest of the country to put the entire middle east in the "nonessential" category for our country. You really think we'd have so many kids fighting over there if not for the oil they have that we need???

Joe

I don't mean to hyjak your thread, but america has done enough! We don't have the money to meddle in
everyone's life around the world, and to give our own people a decent standard of living.

One of these two will have to go, and i'm in favour of 'minding our own business and leading by example.'

Nobody in the world needs to be told what to do at gunpoint by a corporate fascist state masquerading with
the banner of 'the people' and getting people to buy in to war crimes as patriotic adventures.

Amazingly, people have managed to live their lives all over the world before the american assholes started
fucking around all the time with bombing everybody and destroying the atmosphere with their failed model
of resource allocation via the industrial revolution. A new model is desperately sought out by the world
on the back of a crisis in environment and moral leadership... and in to this vacuum, the asian security
pack that, by population and military power, will soon outweigh the US and send the bombing criminals packing
out of asia.

I'm furious that anglo-americana has managed to put its foot in the bear trap this badly,
and i have no intention of suggesting anyone die for the arrogance of some brainwashed fools.

War is not a solution, and the democratic war party has been as bad as the republicans, drugs war included,
i'm not the least bit impressed that it has anything to do with the interests of the american people.
The entire system is contrived to suck the people dry and destroy the very individualism that made
america unique. One out of 32 americans is now under the finger of the law, with an unprecedented
imprisoning of dissent in concentration camps, but maybe the nazi republicans can be voted out.

I'm sure the german opposition thought similarly until they were finally killed off.

That is exactly what we have to do. It is the American thing to do.

We have an interest in dealing with the people that killed ours in NYC - and that is it.

You said - One out of 32 americans is now under the finger of the law, with an unprecedented
imprisoning of dissent in concentration camps -

I don't think I understand what you are saying - cause that is not true.

Joe

WASHINGTON - A record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, according to the Justice Department.
-http://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking06/7Million.html

If you watch the public video (any footage) of the flight in to the south tower,
it clearly is not a commercial aircraft, all you have to do is look at it... its
all american military.

You haven't yet caught on to the fact that the whole thing was a setup to start their
crusade-wars across the middle east. The enemy are those who started the war, who trained
and abetted the terrorists, and this be the US senior command for training and arming
terrorism against civilians.

The war on terror is a fraud, called a 'false flag' operation, an ancient military trick that
is even described in the film 'the princess bride' if you like pretty stories... the commanders
trick the population in to thinking they were attacked by somebody in order to start the war they
want and usurp absolute dictatorial power.. be given it freely by goering's maxim's.

I know the number you speak of - and I agree, what are we doing as a society using up our prison space with drug crimes instead of murderers - I AGREE.

You say the commanders trick. - I am telling you that those commanders were supposed to be officers of the United States - and they were awol - except maybe a few Jr officers - so far. But they only tricked themselves - they had and have a duty to the soldiers they command and to the constitution. They will live by this in the end.

That the war on terror has a problem with it - you are right - my issue is just with the people that killed ours. I want them. And I want to make sure this problem does not come up again for my kids.

I won't go into the nazi stuff - I figure dad killed about 1100 nazis in the war. If Goering was in a fighter plan against dad or the guys from his squadron by 1945 - they would surely kill him straight away. Goering was an ace from WWI, you know - but I know any of those american boys would have shot his ass out of the sky on sight. Goering was just a fat boy by then - not capable of much except ion his own mind. He was no fighter pilot at the end. Just a drug addict.

Joe

You seem to misunderstand the term commanders.

I got my g' nazi's mixied up:

Roughly paraphrased:
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders...tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism - joeseph goebbels

The commanders i'm referring to are the president, VP, Secdef, NSC, and the secret ops team that executed 9/11.

It by no means included the greater knowledge of the military command, surely they used trusted secret ops and
private contractors to do the work.

I could have been one of the WTC dead, and i really do deeeeply agree with you that i want retribution for
the death of many collegues and the attempted murder of my own life. But i see retribution as entirely
different than you do. I don't believe for a second that the army can win hearts and minds. Hard power is
never ever necessary if soft power is employed artfully, but the artful use of power is not a concern of
the leadership as they are grossly criminal.

As one of the potential dead, i'm very angry that my government set explosives and demolished those buildings,
very angry that those criminals are in the loose across washington DC today, whilst the WTC victems and the
rescue survivors dying of resperatory sicknesses deserved better than to be murdered by bush republicans.
I can't say i don't feel like any person who's been shot at by a murderer, there's an honest human reaction
to want to kill your attacker before they try it again, as one shot lucky is not two. But not being a hot
blooded person particularly, i want them destroyed politically that they stay buried forever and everyone who
ever remembers them curses their name.

I hope you take the time to read chalmer's johnson's "blowback/sorrows of empire". In terms of retribution
with the people of the middle east who my country has systemically murdered and mucked with by supporting
evil dictatorships like saudi, israeli-apartheid, saddam, pakiterrorism and other despicable school of the
america's stuff, the only retribution those persons of those oppressed nations deserve is an open embrace,
and the willingness to send the army home and demand soft-regime change from the oppressors of islamic self determination.

They were all scum.

I do think Goering had more substance - he was at least a WWI ace.

Fat bastard that he was.

I don't think this government had anything to do with blowing up the WTC - they aren't cometent enough to deal with a hurricane let alone that.

But that also says alot about them.

We need to get our kids the hell out of there. And I still expect justice for what happened in NYC.

Joe

There was a time i would have felt the same,
but now i suspect that the actions are all deliberate devices,
and that there are no coincidences amongst men.

Viet nam was a lesson they didn't learn from in imperialism,
and we're faced with the question: empire or democracy,
this is a real conundrum, unlike with us or against us,
its really one or the other.

War On Terror.

There is no such thing.

A Fake Concept that is used for the gain of Profit, Power, and control of People.

It really is that simple.

Stop falling for it.

No matter -

3000 of our people did die on 9/11/01 - and I DO INTEND that the people that did this pay dearly for it. So do all of us.

Everything I said was hard won knowledge. - And nothing is ever "that simple".

I am not falling for anything - I want what is right - I just don't want a third world war.

I am truly American - I want my cake and eat it too.

Joe

War on terror is a misnomer and nonsensical. How, exactly, does one declare war on a concept, on a tactic, and how would such a war be won?

Is what it is though, huh.

Joe