Does Michael Moore's "SICKO" Have It's Facts Straight?

American Society of Registered Nurses ### HTTP://WWW.ASRN.ORG
via PR Log Press Release Service

http://www.prlog.org/10020507-does-michael-moore-sicko-have-it-facts-straight.html

We decided that we wanted to know just what the facts are. Is Moore right or is President Bush? Does America have the best health system in the world, as measured by life expectancy and infant mortality or is Moore right? Are we spending more than any other country in the Western world? And if so, are we getting the worst health care system for our dollars? Both sides have facts, but whose are right?

When we surveyed select counties across the world for life expectancy, which was defined as the life expectancy at birth for both sexes, the U.S. fared very poorly.

The U.S. came in 17th, tied with Cypress, with a life expectancy of 78.0. Here are the countries in the top 17: Japan (81.4); Switzerland (80.6); Sweden (80.6); Australia (80.6); Canada (80.3); Italy (79.9); France (79.9); Spain (79.8); Norway (79.7); Israel (79.6); Greece (79.4); Austria (79.2); New Zealand (79.0); Germany (79.0); U.K. (78.7); Finland (78.7); Cypress (78.0); and the U.S. (78.0).

In our survey of select countries across the world for infant mortality, which was defined as the number of deaths per 1,000 live births, the U.S. again did poorly.

The U.S. came in 16th, below South Korea, with an infant mortality rate of 6.4. Here are the countries in the top 16: Sweden (2.8); Japan (3.2); Finland (3.5); Norway (3.6); Czech Republic (3.9); France (4.2); Spain (4.3); Denmark (4.5); Austria (4.5); Canada (4.6); Australia (4.6); Portugal (4.9); UK (5.0); New Zealand (5.7); South Korea (6.1); U.S. (6.4).

The next question is whether the U.S. truly spends more than any other country in the world on health care. This would indeed indicate a mismanagement of funds budgeted for the health care system.

While there may be mitigating circumstances, these would have to be deemed controllable by the most powerful nation on earth.

We then surveyed per capital health expenditures, by country, which was defined as the sum of public and private expenditures, in U.S. dollars, divided by the population. Health expenditure includes the provision of health services (preventive and curative); family planning activities, nutrition activities and emergency aid designated for health, but excludes the provision of water and sanitation.

Again, Moore's facts checked out. The U.S. spends $5,711 per person. That's a whopping 42% more the next highest spending country, Norway. Norway spends only $3,309 per person.

**MORE AT LINK**

His films should be digested with that in mind.

I think he serves an important and useful gadfly function. I would not, however, depend on him for strict factual accuracy nor a balanced presentation of his subject.

All documentaries present a point of view. Moore does not claim to present a "fair and balanced" point of view. We can consult Faux News for that (/sarcasm).

He also gets a lot of things right.

I am a documentary film maker myself (PBS, Discovery, etc.), so I can tell you from experience, that he uses a lot of rhetorical and suasive tools in his productions, and not all of them are "fair" or "balanced," whatever meaning you choose to assign to those words. (Hopefully not the meaning FNC uses.)

We're in agreement here - your radar is showing a false alarm. Again, my point is, receive Moore with the same set of polemical filters that you use when referencing any source with a political axe to grind.

On Moore's site he backs up his facts of all his movies and repudiates all repudiation. I suggest you check his site.
Lee

Didn't you read the God Damn OP? Oh but you just love "factual accuracy". LOL

Start over.

I got egged by an adolescent who didn't read my post. Next.

Not only that, you've overestimated your ability to bullshit your way out of it.

I have a bigger shovel in the shed if you'd like to keep digging.

quit while you're not as behind as you could be

No problem, just say it louder and meaner...that'll show me. :-)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Sure, he may state "facts" but that just makes him a CREDIBLE leftist pig!!!
:silly:

:o

The American health care system is so utterly fucked up - abysmal performance at astronomical prices - that documentary evidence would look exactly like the polemicist's art.

Doesn't that make him a "documentarian"?

:shrug:

innocents.

Back to the topic at hand though-- what exactly did Moore get incorrect?

Or will this just be an ad hominem attack?

was a pseudo-vegetarian, not a semi-librarian. This brings us back to the issue of how much tehina Michael Moore puts into his home-made hummus. You simply can't call him an honest hummustarian.

when it comes to healthcare in America

"On the dismal state of affairs in the Middle East at present I offer only one comment, once attributed to Yasser Arafat: having a war about religion is like having a fight over who's got the best imaginary friend."

http://cricketandcivilisation.blogspot.com/2006/07/of-good-and-evil.html

When it comes to the dismal state of affairs in US healthcare, having a 'war' over Harry and Louise GOP ads really IS having imaginary friends ! GOP needs to join Dems on single payer...

From Wikipedia

Polemics /pəˈlɛmɪks, poʊ-/ is the practice of disputing or controverting religious, philosophical, or political matters. As such, a polemic text on a topic is written specifically to dispute or refute a topic that is widely viewed to be a "" or beyond reproach, in an effort to promote factual awareness.

My comment: I am not sure what the blank inside the quotes refers to - please advise if you figure that out.

I actually like the way Moore handles things. Fair and balanced he is not - he definitely slants the issues that he addresses. And anyone viewing his films have to be somewhat aware of the situation being portrayed in order to appreciate the slant that he brings the issue.

That being said - our side needs to have an organized mentality with which we can refute the nonsense that the Right WIng throws at us continually - and they claim this nonsense is the truth.

Moore's film about the auto industry portrayed one of the Central Problems of our time - outsourcing long beofre most of us realized that it was not going to just be the auto workers in Michigan affected by outsourcing. Did he take sides - yes, he did.

Same with his movie on gun ownership. He choose a side and he railed against the Powers on the other side of the fence. And of course, Fahreinheit 911 - name one other documetnary where people lined up for BLOCKS to see the film during its release weekend.

Before I vote for any Dem candidate I wanna know that they saw F 911. Once you see it, you could never concede so quickly.

Some people think polemicist is a dirty word. ;-) It's not; it's a compliment.

I'm guessing that refers to "quotable quotes" that are used as truisms.

and no facts, do you have anything else to offer by way of discussion?

I would expect a "Documentarian" such as yourself to actually check things out.

You've probably seen my work, anyway.

Meanwhile, you may not realize how much checking goes into a (nonpolemical) broadcast documentary...it takes a large part of my pre-production time. However, ultimately, every presentation of fact relies upon the presenter's choices about which facts to present, how to apply rhetorical and cinematic tools to emphasize or diminish points, how to choose experts to rely upon, and which others to pass by. lol - oh yeah, and about how many shoot days you can afford, and how to cover for the line producer who just got arrested for cocaine possession at the airport. To think there is a single shining truth to be shown in a documentary is to still be in tenth grade. Even the stuff I did for NOVA involved these kinds of choices.

That said, remember that this is DU (an opinion-posting place), not a documentary, and (!!) different expectations apply. I'm not anyone's Google mommy here. ;-)

I complimented Moore upthread...but not unabashedly or fervently, so out came the long knives. The usual suspects scanned my first post, ignored the actual point I was making, and then demanded I justify the opinion they've fantasized that I have - while notably not justifying their own. This is the kind of behavior that one expects from True Believers, as described so elegantly by Eric Hoffer. One sees it in Scientologists, fundamentalist Christians and Islamicists, anarchists - on and on, among those who've surrendered their personal identity to take on the identity of their chosen group and its prophets. Deep self-righteous nastiness feels sooooo gooooood. It makes you feel Important(tm) because you Have the Truth and It Has Unleased Your Terrible Swift Sword.

Here's a link. So good, so valuable, especially in these Bush-dominated times.
http://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2720660-8775239?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182181819&sr=8-1

I'm glad there's diversity of opinion at this site; exposure to ideas not identical to our own is the chief benefit of a discussion site. It's why I'm here - to exchange views with thoughtful commentators, even (especially) if we differ. Those who feel justified to vomit unprovoked nastiness at someone whose opinions they don't like are saying a lot more about who they are than about who I am. They also have zero chance of propagating their views...but that irony escapes them. I remember a spittle-flecked ranter at the airport in Chicago a few years ago. lol - I think he was pissed off about Peace (not actual peace). They all think they are sui generis. Actually, they are the grass of this world.

As I said previously, I admire Moore's skills, think he serves a useful and valuable function, and vote with my $$ by buying his films. But I do think we must be smarter consumers of media, and learn how to analyze works by Moore and other political film-makers. That whole truth-to-power thing, you know. (Personally, I treat Moore's films as guilty pleasures, as entertainment that also provokes thoughtful questions.) A failure to develop the skills of critical analysis gives other people the power to fill our heads with *their* ideas, at the cost of our own. In other words, to be under their power. (Picture Nuremberg for an image of that writ large.) Which is about as illiberal and antiprogressive a condition as I can imagine.

I think you've won the "self righteous nastiness" award here.

Among the films winning the Oscar for Documentaries, quite a few are very personal. Not all of them are intended to show both sides of a subject. In fact, the first winners--during WWII--were full-blown propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Documentary_Feature

I do not accept 100% of anything as "truth." Neither Michael Moore's films nor your post. However, I'd give your piece more weight if you could detail some of the flaws you can't be bothered to list.

All "documentary" will be colored by the filter of its creator. Moore's filter is just a lot more obvious. He's not an anthropological or sociological documentarian. There are other documentarians whose accuracy and/or impartiality can be questioned. That doesn't render their work any less/more interesting or valid.

Moore is an entrepreneurial documentarian with marketplace recognition. He's informing many people of critical issues in a way that they can understand. I see no need to belittle his work.

Brother.

They just make fun of people who do, in order to appeal to stupidity and mean-spiritedness. No surprises here. :shrug:

This excerpt from David Sirota’s book, Careless Industry: How corporate America perpetuates the health care crisis, may help to explain what the not-for-profit advocates like myself are up against:

The Institute of Medicine was created by Congress in 1970 to be the chief, nonpartisan adviser to the federal government on all matters related to health care. That’s why the announcement it made in 2004 was so stunning. “Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States,” the Institute said.

In 2003, HMOs nearly doubled their profits from just a year before, adding $10 billion to their bottom line. That year, top executives at the 11 largest health insurers made a combined $85 million in one year. In the first three quarters of 2004, HMO profits increased by another 33 percent.

The sheer numbers behind these profits are staggering: In 2004 alone, the four biggest health insurance companies reported $100 billion in revenues. That’s $273 million a day, every day, 365 days of the year. ….That’s the kind of cash that allowed the health industry to spend more than $300 million on lobbying in 2003, and another $300 million on campaign contributions to politicians since 2000.

********

And so goes our greedy and provitable for some Capitalist Society - and the Bush boys say they are Christian - God help us!

For those generalities.

I'll give you some specifics: Kaiser - one of the largest health maintenance orgs out in the West.

They deliberately set up a kidney transplant program - so that they would not have to outsource their chronic kidney patients to other institutions. That way they could keep the monies inside the operation -rather than sending the payments to the other institutions, they'd capture them internally.

Nothing wrong with that idea overall - but they forced hundreds of their patients off the kidney transplant waiting lists onto their own lists. Then since the program was so new that the program managers did not even know how to go about procuring the needed transplants - the program became a "killer" program.

The death toll of Kaiser patients who succumbed to kidney disease before their names were anywhere close to the top of the list was staggering.

Countless people - some of whom were within easy reach at getting a kidney from the original institution - they died and left behind some very PO'ed survivors. Kaiser couldn't even manage an apology to the families of these people, and in some cases was insulting and rude.

The State of California finally had to step in - and so some kidney patients are now back in line at the original place where they hoped to get a transplant.

But if the state hadn't stepped in - Kaiser would have been laughing all the way to the bank.

One of the problems that I see is that there are no penalties for those jokers who think up these "killer" programs. Kaiser had to pay a settlement to patients and patient families, and also fines - but get this - that only means that people who remain as Kaiser patients will pay increased premiums. (And often it is your employer who makes the decision as to whether you are a Kaiser member or not.)

In my book, I'd like to see the top notch consultants who created this idea sharing that cell with Libby and for far, far longer than thirty months.

This kind of data makes one sick to the stomach! How can this so called Christian Administration set back and allow these life and death decisions go on without any input? In the case of our Florida Legislature they gave HMO's bonuses in the last legislative session! There are 3 reporters down here doing the best they can to get this information out to the Florida residents but so far there has been little reaction. This needs to be as BIG a story as Iraq - and don't get me wrong I have had 2 sons in Iraq 1 and II, with one who may have to go back, so I want that settled too! -

But when 18,000 people are loosing their lives in the US every year because of lack of insurance or quality care then we need to be jumping up and down about it too!!

I am afraid if we don't do something soon about it I am afraid we are going to see even more people loose their fight for life! How can we continue to say we are the "Greatest Country in the World" and act like this???

:rant:

Americans spend $5711 per person per year to come in 16th and 17th on the two most important statistics, life expectancy and infant mortality.

Norway spends $3809 to come in 9th and 4th respectively.

Japan spends $2244 a year to come in 1st and 2nd respectively.

Americans are getting a lousy deal.

:applause:

Cuba has a roughly comparable life expectancy and yet spends about 5 cents for every dollar we pay to PHARMA and the Medical-Insurance-Industrial-Complex parasites.

Here's a cost-benefit chart from http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php :



Note: the numbers I've seen on various sites vary a bit, but here are the WHO pages for the US and Cuba - Stats for 2005 except when otherwise noted.

CUBA http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75/79
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67/70
Probability of dying under five (per 1 000 live births): 7
Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years m/f (per 1 000 population): 128/83
Total expenditure on health per capita (Intl $, 2004): 229
Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2004): 6.3

US http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75/80
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67/71
Probability of dying under five (per 1 000 live births): 8
Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years m/f (per 1 000 population): 137/81
Total expenditure on health per capita (Intl $, 2004): 6,096
Total expenditure on health as % of GDP (2004): 15.4

I think there's a message here that a lot of people don't want to hear.

(edit to set approximate costs at 5% instead of 5-10%)

Thanks for posting...

Our system is so messed up and gamed by the corporations that it seems almost impossible to fix it.

The US has the best health care anybody could ever be denied.

statistics out there for years now. Bill Moyers did shows on his NOW show about it before he left PBS. It's weird that only Michael Moore could make people sit up and take notice.

And it doesn't really reflect well on the health of the republic as a whole when the only thing people bother connecting with anymore are celebrities.

their media power to shine a light on these problems and the corruption in our system so I welcome every single one of them and applaud them for doing so.

Not to disparage the profession, I'm sure there are still some good ones out there, but they're obviously more interested in protecting their own profession than advancing the best interests of patients.

I guess they're for full employment in the nursing profession, not necessarily full health care coverage for all.

My mother was a nurse, and both my sisters are nurses. They work their asses off. AND they DO care about their patients.

Sorry, but I do not agree with you here. Yes, they want to protect their profession, but I have known many many nurses in my life, and they are, almost to a fault, dedicated to taking care of their patients.

They do want full employment, but not for the reason you state. They want full employment because so many of them get squeezed out. And then hospitals and nursing homes and other care facilities start realizing that the nurses are a very vital part of their facilities, and things flip, and they are practically dragging nurses into jobs.

Please do not blame the nurses. It is the so-called health care system in the US, that cares more about the bottom line than it does about the health care workers or the patients.

Edited to add: My mom was also the head of her union for a number of years. She was not interested in screwing the patients over; rather, she was interested in making sure the nurses were treated well, AND that the patients were teated well.

My mom is the type of person who would literally throw herself in front of a bus to save someone, and she's not afraid to take on the powers that be (which I inherited from her, thanks mom!).

but I also work with nurses on a regular basis and find many of them to be overbearing, intolerant, condescending and unwilling to listen to patients. I'm sure they feel they're being compassionate, but I don't think they often understand things from the patients point of view or even respect them as fellow human beings. Some may be stressed out and just need to find a new profession.

They also seem, for the most part, to have little interest in working to improve access to health care and reduce the number of uninsured. Most of their legislative advocacy is focused on their own internal labor issues. I'm sure those are important, but we all need to think of the needs of everyone, not just ourselves. I'm not painting with a broad brush here, but the vast majority of the nurses I come into contact with have one or more of these characteristics. Its not uncommon for many patient support groups and health care related non profit organizations to have a "no nurses" policy for board or other members. They're impossible to work with, very manipulative and controlling.

Maybe my mom, sissies and the nurses they work with are a unique group of people. I have known them all for many many years, and again I will say they are ardent patient advocates, along with being advocates for others in their profession.

Bottom line, for me, is the way the system of "health care" (or rather, health care denial) is set up in this country. In the end, I think it hurts everyone except the fucking CEOs.

I've run into bad attitude nurses too. They seem to be more common in public health clinics, emergency rooms at public hospitals, and other chronically understaffed facilities. Most nurses that I've encountered on the floor in medical centers are professional and competent and far more accessible than doctors.

Are you in administration in the health care field? I ask because I have only seen your type of descriptor of nurses from those who don't care for nurses fighting for better health care for their patients as well as fighting for better working conditions for themselves which, imo, means better health care for their patients.

My best friend has worked in ER's for the last 10 years. They have to become somewhat desensitized when they see knife and gunshot wounds, car accidents, drug addicts and more EVERY SINGLE DAY. Do you think you'd be all compassionate and chipper with every one of these patients? If they didn't shut down emotionally somewhat, they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

Nurses are incredibly overworked. There is an extreme shortage of nurses in the United States - and in many parts of the world. They already have full employment. They need a little help! And it's hard to imagine any profession where people work so hard for relatively low pay.

are caring, hardworking and underpaid..

but work with them everyday and I see them as hard working, dedicated, pushing for patient care and lining up against the insurance industry who exploits them as providers and as patients, just like the rest of us.

the entire staff was incredibly caring and hardworking, but also overworked from what I could tell.

Congratulations to all of you in health care who do everything you can for the patients while the system crumbles down around you.

It answers the question: Yes, Moore is accurate.

With the following rules:

You sit when we sit (wear supportive shoes, it may be 6 more more hours before you get to sit. BTW, a co worker wore a pedimeter one day...10 miles in one 12 hour shift)
You get to use the bathroom when we do (note: don't drink alot during the shift, it makes it more bearable when you can't GET to the bathroom for 6 hours or more--and if you do, fully expect your hospital issued cell phone/pager to beep midstream.)
You eat when we eat (suggestion: go to work on a very full stomach, cuz that lunchbreak may not happen til 3 am during your 7pm-7am shift--again, fully expect that phone/beeper to ring--eat QUICK---cuz there is no telling the person at the other end of the phone "I'll be there when I am done" b/c you are done as soon as that phone rings)

No expecting help when (all at the same time) you have one patient climbing out of bed, another going into a potentially fatal cardiac arrythmia, a brand new admission on the way, and a patient (in that 12 hour span) on their 2nd unit of blood and 4th unit of fresh frozen plasma. It's you and you alone since your co-workers are in the same boat as you--no time to give you a hand.

OH, on top of all this, you know that your nursing supervisor gets a **bonu$** for keeping staffing within the hospital "staffing grid"--a grid that doesn't take patient acuity into account. Translation: Whether you have a patient who is independent and walking the halls or one on death's door/totally dependent/needing you at their bedside the majority of the shift, under the grid, they are equal.


And after the above SINGLE shift, you go back and do the same thing the following two nights. BTW, the above shift is the best it is going to get for those three nights.
After those 3 shifts, you will be allowed to come back here and have a real conversation about our profession.

I havebeen an RN for over 20 years.I LOVE my patients,and do a lot of "special" things for them....but-it's getting harder and harder to do even the basics,let alone "fluff pillows".I recently had to go to the ER after a 12 hour shift with no breaks,no food,no water.I passed out in the hall,had to have a fluid bolus and potassium.What a great way to treat your staff.And my boss wonders why I am leaving...

I'm changing jobs, too....the floor I am on now is cancelling all contract nurses. Never mind that as contract nurses we have the lowest turnover rate on the floor. All of us have been there for 5 to 8 yrs. In comparison, the newer nurses, mainly new grads, have either quit during their orientation or have verbalized that they are leaving our floor as soon as their one year is up so they can go to the ER. Those nurses they are "keeping".
The rest, well, are being coddled by management so they don't up and quit...veterans get the short end of the stick just so the newbies are pacified. THAT is about to come to a grinding halt since they are letting all of us oldtimers GO at the end of the month. It will be a new reality for some of the coddled newbies who have benefited from our sweat/tears/broken backs over the last year or so.
I had 2 offers to go to another hospital, same kind of floor but I am physically/mentally/emotionally drained after 8 years in an ICU stepdown setting.
So I am changing over to an HIV/AIDS outpt setting. 8-4:30, Monday thru Friday..a population that I have worked with before for 5 years and remember it being the most rewarding time of my nursing career.
I take some comfort in knowing that the facility I am at now, part of the national chain owned by a certain **republican family**, is hurting financially. So many hospitals being built in Collin County have drastically reduced the number of pts that are coming to our facility. The NICU, historically the hospital's cash cow, has had half the number of babies in it...lots of OB docs have left for better facilities/deals. With the OB's go the babies. L&D, in turn, has lost 15 staff nurses..they went with their former manager over to a newer hospital a few miles away.
With them, went a bunch of post partum nurses.
We recently had the CEO and nursing brass openly BEGGING nurses at our nursing town hall to NOT be tempted to rush off to the newer facilities..so much for us getting magnet status a few months ago (which was a joke in it self with the nurse turnover rate during the last year). Easy for them to do the begging, THEY are still getting full paychecks/hours while the full time staff nurses in the audience have been getting cancelled left and right due to low patient census, having to use up their PTO to still make ends meets. NICU nurses are having to do the shared employee plan---going to other hospitals to get their full paychecks.
Hospital brass don't seem to grasp the thought that if you respect and take care of your nurses, you will have NO need to worry about them jumping ship. Instead they shit on the nurses and now, I hear, "didn't expect to lose as many nurses as they have lost".
Even the cardiology doctors have pulled out and have moved on down the street to the new cardiac hospital.

Sorry to vent...it's not that often I run into other nurses here on DU!

The Metroplex is simply screwed-up.It is terrible how nurses are treated in Texas.

It really would scare the hell out of people to see what really happens, wouldn't it? Past the "Patient Safety" posters on the wall and all the other stuff they out there to make themselves look good to the public.


Someone actually call the State on our hospital a few weeks ago because they were giving ICU step down nurses 6 patients each. Surprisingly, they actually CAME to the facility..not a phone call or letter but physically sent people from State to investigate. Would have loved to been a fly on the wall in the administrator's office when THAT news was given!! They haven't tried it since then, though.

This is the same facility that turned a floor's **waiting room** into a room for three patients one time. I know, because I was their nurse. They put up curtains between the beds, no lights over the beds so the pt couldn't even read or see well, just one lamp on the other side of the room. Had to help them hike to the bathroom on the other side of the waiting room that was really the public bathroom. Each had all of their families come in that night so it was 3 beds in a row and families sqeezed in between along with IV pumps, etc..

WHY did this happen? Because the administrators REFUSED to let the ER go on diversion..even though we had no beds left in the hospital for these patients, we kept admitting them. Couldn't give up a patient cuz that meant giving $$ to other local hospitals!!
And how much do you wanna bet that these pts/Medicare/insurance were each charged for a real room??

You know that they charge a pt to have an RT come in and check their O2 sats? Even though the nurse can do the same blessed thing with her assessment and chart it?? Nope..gotta have the RT do it so the hospital can put a separate charge on the pt's hospital bill. Pulse oximeters...babies gets charged $200/day to have one at their bedside in the NICU. Never mind that the damn thing was paid off the first few times it was used..still gotta get that $$$$$ whenever they can.

The list/greed goes on and on. And they wonder where all the Medicare/insurance $$ is going to. Just get a copy of someone's itemized hospital bill.

"meal breaks"....most days I'm lucky to get 5 minutes in the bathroom. Sometimes I fantasize that every nurse at my hospital demands and gets her 1/2 hour lunch break in the cafeteria for just one day...it might open the administration's eyes to the staffing/patient load situation...

I'm a nurse as well, and while there may be nurses who are judgmental and small-minded, they are very much in the minority. Most of us knock ourselves out to help our clients, and get very little recognition or respect for our efforts.

We also recognize how utterly broken our health care system is: since the HMOs took charge, the push has been to get patients out of care "quicker and sicker". Patient education has become a nostalgic ideal in this "slap a bandaid on it and ship 'em out" era. Good nurses are leaving the profession in droves, and few young men or women are willing to take it up.

IMHO, Michael Moore is a Hero for bringing the attention of the average American to this mess.

All the old timer, experienced nurses (for the most part) left the profession because
of the incredible pressures that were put on them.

They must work long hard hours, and doing that almost insures that one day you will make a trqagic mistake and injure or kill someone. (Also, the harder your life on a hospital floor the more likely that you will get hurt yourself.)

Hospital policies are insane. Nursing professionals who were raised inside the health system of the sixties and seventies when a patient's health still meant something cannot deal with the third world conditions inside major hospitals these days.

In Marin County, inside Marin General Hospital, the nurses are often "travelling" nurses - they are on one floor one day and another floor the next. I have been out on hospital floors since I was sixteen - some forty years ago. That was always frowned on - you are much more likely to "goof" if you haven't seen the patient before.

But if they can shove nurses from a temp agency around, the Hospital management keeps control.

Too bad if patients suffer.

I watched Sicko with a total understanding that he was leaving out the problems and foibles of the other systems he was relating. Didn't you? Couldn't you?

After all, we are only seeing the total OTHER side of that equation in that movie, (as was intended) and if you are a current victim, (or worker) of the results of the one-sided propaganda in the American health-care system that is bought and paid for and only about profit, then it should be clear to you why nit-picking is not the real issue here. We have been sold a bill of goods that gives us nothing more than a chaste-system of health care that assures us nothing but a endless slide down a tunnel of diminishing returns if we are not rich and unprivileged.

Or, maybe you are not THERE yet? Maybe you will be, if circumstance allows it.

We meed a strong and easily digested counter-balance to the facade that has been copiously painted-over our sound reasoning, practicality, and self-interests to date. Moore has done his best to provide something that will wake up those who have been persuaded by billions of dollars, over decades of time, to sacrifice their best interests for a delusion that ends up equaling nothing but a grab for greater profits and an exchange of human decency and well-being for profit. Do you get that YET?

My mate works in health care and takes care of people at the latter stages of life. Now, you MAY be so wealthy that this does not concern you at all, but these patients are not! They are now trapped in the brunt end of this profit-motivated deal. Did you think hell was something you get AFTER you die. I am very sorry to tell you that, in America, it is something you get at the end of your life when you are infirm and not wealthy enough to float above the cruel bottom-line of corporations who think of you as meat or cattle passing through their money-making slaughter-houses. And you know what? The nurses and most importantly, the CNA's, who are genuine care-givers and love theor patients go through the same hell with you as they endure very LOW pay and nothing but lack of concern and cost-cutting as they try to keep you comfortable as you reach your end.

Keep those facts deeply in mind as you approach the time when you may not be able to care for yourself. I assure you from my personal experience, hearing night after night what goes on in this situation, in America at least, it is better to live fast and die young and leave a good looking corpse than to hope for any semblance of care or decency in an extended-care facility that is run by good old bottom-line corporate America. It is very possible that dog food gets more concern than you will and you will most certainly be trapped and have no way out of it once it befalls you.

Think about that and let it sink in. This is the time to prepare for your fate. Or, you could easily go back to putting your efforts, time, and energy into refuting what Moore has to offer. As far as the control matrix is concerned, you really should. It is your job to fight for being relentlessly screwed into the ground and left for dead without any recourse or voice, in the end ... don't you know?

I really just hope that you are ultra-rich enough that what I have said does not matter. The rest of us have to stand up and take note and start with the major points and compare them with the profit propaganda that has left us in a very dire position. Our health is very important and now, if it fails, we stand to lose everything. Is that what America is supposed to be about? Get sick = financial loser! Sorry!

I didn't have insurance for about 2 years. I do now, though my husband's company, at the out of pocked cost of $378 a month. It's fucking insane, AND its criminal.

I think it is immoral to have pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies be publicly traded on the stock exchange. WTF is up with that? Never mind, I know. It is a continuation of the path this country is on, valuing the rich, and denigrating the poor.

I cannot even begin to tell you how disgusted and sickened I am by this system. My mother has a number of health issues, but she is among the fortunate, in that my grandfather left her a good sum of money when he passed away. But she feels the same as I do: why should SHE have access to care because she happened to be fortunate enough to have a parent who invested well and passed the money on to her, whereas I and others, so many others, would be up Shit Creek if we had serious medical issues.

I am so fucking sick of being treated like a piece of shit because I am not among the rich. And BTW, mom isn't really rich, but thank goodness she DOES have the money to help pay for the health care she needs.

I appreciate your acknowledgment and must acknowledge your greater awareness and factual realism.

Be sick of it! You should not be treated like a piece of shit! Nobody on this planet should be, and we should stand by that idea with a great and undeniable tenacity.

And so, we must open our minds, wake up, and realize that we are not wrong or crazy to stand up and question what is going on right now. We obviously are living a legacy where the wool has been pulled over the eyes of our parents and now us, and we don't want that to go on for ourselves or our children.

I have due respect for those who want to support the system that holds them by fearing and refuting Mr. Moore, but I would prefer they see the most important points he is trying to convey in a short time and see how they actually affect us all, here and now. We are due for some careful and critical thinking that will counter those who rely on us being more confused and vague about what is being foisted upon us as truth and fact, than not.

We either wake up now and see how the coffee really smells, or we wake up in a nursing home and see the results. Of course, we could wake up in an emergency room and soon find that everything we valued and were working for is now a matter of who gets to take what we have, right?

I think Moore is just that guy to get this out there. At least I hope.

:patriot:

Kind of blows a hole in the meme that it would be too expensive for Nationalized Health Care. In fact it would appear it could cut our costs up to forty percent and we would all be covered and have actual better treatment..

So I have no opinion of the film but there are some "facts" that concern me in the link like:

"In our survey of select countries"

Errr, what countries got selected? Was it a random draw? If the selection of countries happen to be the sixteen countries that rank higher than the US then the results are pretty much a given. Where does the US rank among all countries?

You're biasing your argument against America! Report all of the facts on healthcare! For example, the US leads the world in salaries for pharmaceutical company CEOs (#1). We have the largest number of faith-based hospitals too! And we lead the world in salaries of people who have been refused medical care!

Doesn't this prove that the US health system is the best in the world?

Maybe on life support.

because their benefits ran out. They're presently living in a cardboard box while their applications for Medicaid are pending.

He backs up his facts and repudiates the challenges to his facts. I trust Moore.
Don't ask for a link. It's Michaelmoore.com or something. Google is your friend.
Lee

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/half_of_nation_outraged_at

Half Of Nation Outraged At New, Not-Yet-Released Michael Moore Film

WASHINGTON, DC—Though the film isn't scheduled for release until June 29, a New York Times/CBS News poll found that nearly half the nation believes Michael Moore's new health care documentary Sicko is "unpatriotic," "disgusting," and "ill-informed."

"This film is absolutely tasteless and misguided, and I can't believe theaters are even showing it," said GOP presidential candidate Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS), who, along with the rest of the nation, has not yet seen the film. "I thought the role of a documentary filmmaker was to be objective, but moviegoers are going to leave the theater thinking that there is something wrong with some part of the United States, and that is just flat-out untrue."

The other half of the nation has praised Sicko, calling it a "real eye-opener" that would "challenge people's preconceived notions."