Is this administration fascist?

No equivocating on definitions or other divisive distractions.

If it was, would we even be allowed to post our dissent here? Fuck no.

I get tired of stupid posts saying we are under fascist rule.

you're in the minority! :shrug:

I spoke up, the "majority" are hiding behind anonymous votes.

Your argument is more representative of a totalitarian state imo.

I mean really...

it is NO.

Not totalitarian state, but fascist, yes.

In the sense that it means the merger of corporate and government power. It isn't required that there be elimination of all dissent for there to be fascism IMHO. They own the media and they are very successful thus far in brainwashing the sheeple IMHO! It's not as bad as it could be but it may get there. They're certainly taking steps in that direction! Steps have been and are being implemented!

no equivocation.. Does this administration have fascist qualities, absolutely. Is it on par with historical fascist countries like Germany and Italy? Absolutely not.

So if you have to pick an "absolute" answer, I would have to say NO for now. That does not mean it cannot develop into one, but as of right now I still think we live in a Democratic Republic.

everything else. But eventually they will get there if we (and our representatives in congress - talk about ineffective) don't stop them.

From jokes on MadTV to slanted reports on corporate news, it's easy to ignore or marginalize dissenters, or just make them look insane.

It's much more sophisticated and effective than merely suppressing dissent.

Have you read "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky? I recommend it.

I meant to reply to one of the folks who said that the present regime is not fascist because we aren't stopped on every corner for "our papers" and because we don't (yet) have concentration camps.

Sorry about that. My comment must have seemed kind of out of context to what you were saying.

If what you want to pretend is true, NOBODY would protest. It is a farce to say that this admin is fascist, etc. It cheapens what true victims of these types of socities live through when WE are in fact very free. It's ridiculous.

It isn't totalitarian as I and some other posters have stated, and if you think that it's ridiculous and that many people aren't suffering right here you are being naive, at best.

We've lost almost all of our rights. They have 14,000 people (that we know of) locked up in secret prisons. They are torturing their enemies. Corporations own the government.

These mutherfuckers are fascists!

and of what America is.

We are free to be rounded up by the thousands without due process. We are free to be under surveillance if we dissent. We are free to vote in rigged Federal elections. We're free all right.

Some good links BattyDem posted in #12.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

rounded up after 9/11 and imprisoned in New York and in New Jersey? And they were beaten and abused and it was all TAPED?

Get some facts in hand before you embarrass yourself by denying what is a matter of public record. And no, I am not spoiled, thanks.

Apparently not.

Got it.

If it isn't the worst it can be, why complain? If it hasn't happened to you, it isn't real.

You raise a good point.

I remember you. Search has been instructive in the past.

complete mortification. Did I mention I am utterly mortified?

Why not address my points, as mortified as I am.

so it didn't happen to others.

"Mortified" is not the word I would use for you.

I give up. You and sfpat have it worse than persons living in the USSR and similar countries. If you never post again, the gov't is liable.

I apologize for my ignorance. I feel horrible. Happy trails and fair winds!

We are not supposed to complain until things are worse than they have ever been anywhere else. Gotcha. And too bad that you can't address a post or a challenge without attacking. I feel for you.

you live in an oppressive society.

I live in a country with an oppressive administration. Yes. You still haven't addressed post #37 except to attack, insult, say you give up, attack and insult.

"Is this administration fascist?" It did not ask who has it worse... the USSR or any other countries. Many traits of fascism are clearly evident in the way this administration conducts its business.

I said that very early on. And that is still my answer.

We do not have it worse here than they did in the USSR? Why do you say NO?

We do NOT have it worse here. Not even by a longshot.

And until things get worse than they were in the USSR, it cannot be fascism. Again, I see shades of grey, gradations on the road to complete totalitarianistic fascism and normal everyday fascism and getting fascistic.

When you have experienced it, it makes fickle complaints look...well..fickle.


By all means, get outraged. Puff up your chest and get angry at the wrong target.

Don't complain because it hasn't happened to you yet. And don't complain because someone else had it worse. Got it.

You have it worse here in the U.S. than people did in the USSR.

You have been more damaged. I concede. I also offer my condolences.

but, I'm curious. Whom do you suppose to be the right target of the anger?

don't you?

Oh never mind, confusing political systems is just so much fun

Though Totalitarianism looks the same on both extremes

I will once again quite Niemuler for you

Original Translation
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte. When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

You seem to think that fascism means Nazi Germany. It doesn't. It can be dressed up in nice suits and catchy jingles and it may even allow sex drugs & rock n'roll.


The crucial tenets of fascism are:

corporate control of government

government and corps using stoking up jingoism and nationalism to justify aggressive militarism

scapegoating of ethnic, political of other minorities by those in power




A country can be both fascist and totalitarian, but it need not be totalitarian to be fascist.



You're getting all worked up because everyone disagrees with you, but the only reason everyone disagrees with you is that you haven't the foggiest idea of what fascism means.

:applause:

And I thought it was all about comparisons with the USSR... :9

BTW, the USSR was dissolved some 15 yrs ago, or so.

The classical (italian) definition of fascism is the marriage of state & corporation.

at Raw Story about how life in the BFEE administration stacks up against the USSR. Since she's lived under both regimes she's in an ideal position to compare. Not that she's prejudiced or anything: Her cousin (a legal immigrant) was detained several months ago in something called "Operation Return to Sender" and held without charges for about a month, without counsel and without her medication which she desperately needed. She posted about it on DU at the time and the notes are in the archive if you're interested. This is strictly from memory so please don't ask me for the details. Also, I can't presume to speak for Larisa, but I remember how frightened she was at the time.

You are confusing totalitarian with fascist. Perhaps a perusal of the definitions would be in order.

There is no USSR. Your logic is too reliant on the past, and btw, those weren't fascist countires. They were socialist totalitarian regimes.
GAC

As long as you feel anyone is rounded up, it's all good.

Original Translation
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte. When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

:wow:

I see shades of grey, not just black/white.

aslo by the classic of fascism... here it goes by the way

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

Perhaps after you read what Benito Mussilini considered Fascsim you will realize why you are wrong

My god... you do need to read that

As defined by Mussolini, the present US government is fascist/corporatist. The idea that it's something new is a bit silly, though. The US has walked a line just shy of fascism for almost a century. We get uncomfortably close, with people like Henry Ford, who favored the fascist model, using their influence to push fascist ideals. But cooler heads, like FDR always prevailed, bringing us back from the brink of utter insanity at the last moment.

I don't think the present regime is remarkable for the amount of power it has usurped or the amount of freedoms and rights it has trampled, but what is unique is the level of abject corruption. I don't think there is a single Bushite serving in elected or appointed office today who has the best interests of the United States. They represent a new level of cynicism never before seen in US government.

I think there is a chance to ward off a permanent fascist state (which would eventually become the totalitarian state you are confusing with fascist), IF we can root out the corruption and reduce corporate influence on the government by a great deal, but there seems to be very little will to do so on the democratic side, so I expect things to keep going the way they are going until enough Americans are impoverished that unrest starts to become really commonplace.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Since you clearly did not read it, and have no comprehension of what fascism is, stop wasting my time with your nonsense.

english. I got my mom's copy (in Spanish) for historical reasons, since you cannot get it in the US any longer.... Perhaps our friend needs some examples from herny Ford's mouth... or poisoned pen

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

How many people said pretty much the same thing you said, back after the Reichstag was burned in 1933, or when US fascists tried to overthrow FDR in IIRC 1934.... What ... because the US has not yet crossed the line into full blown totalitarianism ?

National Socialism in Germany started out as a leftist movement somewhat based on Nationalism, then swung to the right. I dont suggest waiting too long, considering the US has more people in jail as a %, than any other industrialized country.

14 Points of fascism

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm


1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos,
slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on
clothing and in public displays.

2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security,
the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because
of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions,
assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying
patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or
religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given
a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and
military service are glamorized.

5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated.
Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high,
as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other
cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople
and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most
common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and
terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are
diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.) Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often
are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial
business/government relationship and power elite.

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to
a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open
hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics
to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments
often refuse to fund the arts.

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost
limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even
forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with
virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends
and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority
to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national
resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times
elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates,
use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of
the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Click link above for more detailed examples and links in support of the 14 points of fascism

If Mussolini defines fascism as "the merger of corporate and government power" what does that make the K Street project?

Until we have brownshirts walking the streets with truncheons and disappearing people for minor offenses, we will not be completely fascist. We may have the worst and most authoritarian adminsitration in our history, but fascist regimes must be totalitarian, which is not what we have with the Bush criminals.

Of course all 14 of those points are present in this administration, and that is troubling. Just because the 'fascist' label is misapplied to our current regime does not make them acceptable. But throwing that word around diminishes the atrocities of real fascist governments and helps the Bush regime marginalize dissenters by making us look like extremists.

Yelling "They're fascists" in people's face brings to mind "Meathead" making his strident arguments to a dismissive Archie Bunker. In that sense, in the realm of public debate, using the word too much is probably counterproductive and tends to make the person using it seem hysterical. Besides, labels are a lot less effective in persuading people than facts and putting a human face on issues.

That being said, under a broad definition of "Fascist", I think that the present US government and administration do qualify, but that's an argument of semantics. The term is not especially useful in furthering a progressive agenda.

But whenever a Bush policy bears a strong resemblance a Nazi or fascist policy, it's perfectly reasonable to point that out.

Use of terms like "Homeland Security" (Fatherland) and "unlawful combatant" (hikokumin - "un-Japanese") make people with any grasp of history nervous for good reason. There was a time when Mussolini made the trains run on time and the German middle class felt secure, happy and free in the knowledge that their Führer was fighting to stamp out the Jewish menace and protect them from threats like... Poland and Czechoslovakia. The apparatus that reassured them that they were doing the right thing was only different from Fox News in that Fox News is much more sophisticated, and is not owned DIRECTLY by the government or Bushco.


The fact that there is still some semblance of representative democracy functioning in the US today doesn't mean we should breathe easy. The sweeping powers claimed by this administration with little opposition show just how vulnerable our own government is to the kind of changes that were brought about in the German democracy after Hitler assumed the Chancellorship and his thugs burned the Reichstag. For now, the chances are the US government won't go that far, because it's easier to keep people under their boot as long as there is some remaining illusion of freedom.

A totalitarian scenario only becomes likely after an economic collapse of severe proportions. And after 6 years of utterly unsustainable borrow-and-outsource economic policies, that doesn't seem at all farfetched to me.

Political discussions in our sound-bite culture often bear out Godwin's Law. Even when a valid comparison can be made between this adminsitration and historical fascist regimes, as in the case of the 14 points above, doing so doesn't usually serve our purposes. For that reason, I try to avoid actually calling the Bush people fascists, regardless of the similarities.

Incidentally, I thought the justification for annexing Poland and Czechoslovokia was not national security but "Lebensraum," or living space for the German people to prosper, which was in part derived from the American concept of Manifest Destiny.

I agree that complacency would be a condemnable folly. Just because the criminals in our government are not as heinous as Hitler, Mussolini, and their lot does not give them a pass for being the worst administration that we have ever had.

If the Bush Administration wanted to go the totalitarian route, I'm sure they would rely on FOX News to help them garner public support. Probably the scariest thing about FNC is that they are a private company, not tied directly to the administration, and will continue to peddle their lies long after 1/20/09.

American fascism has replaced old-school totalitarianism with a more sophisticated, more manageable and more insidious version.

Fascism version 2.

Fill us up with processed foods and feel good pills.

Distract us with American Idol and Paris Hilton.

Narrow the frames of debate in the controlled media to a comfortable sliver.

Keep the truncheons and the camps in reserve. That's the ugly face, but it's not much needed in version 2.

Stalin and Hitler would surely be in awe of the machinery of American Fascism. Our ability to keep the masses docile is unprecedented.

Every point in post 22 applies here. Version 2 doesn't require mass violence against the populace. Just isolated and widely ignored violence against a select and relative few.

Baaaaaah Baaaah Baah

for brooks brothers suits

And as to people disapearing, been done, done that already

It hasn't affected you directly yet, in a way that you cannot deny it

But we are there... and every so slowly getting closer and closer to the real bad authoritarian aspects of it

Read Al Gore's, he'll explain some elements to you as well

It ia jigzaw puzzle and when you put it together... it is closer to Classic Fascsism (ad defined by Mussolini) than you may want to agree too

}(

Marriage of State and Corporation.

Pretty much like Mussolini's definition of fascism....

Marriage of State and Corporation.

My answer?

Pricless.

Your answer?

Contradicts Mussolini's answer.

Social engineering has come a long way since
1938.

Italy's even longer, 1922-.

who never cared what happened to "the other," only about their own circumstances, And thought that jingoism was a proper variant of patriotism and thus in their self interest. (How do you feel about the "illegals?") It took Hitler 9 years to open the gas chambers and mass crematoriums. The administration you support has had less time, and has the disadvantage of having lost the first invasion it started. No less fascist (Corporatist State), just less competent.

sometimes the latter works to our advantage.

Hitler's rule upwards of 1938... the papers were finally cowed by 1936

Oh Italy, there were demonstrations against Il Duce all the way to '37, just seldomly covered

Franco's Spain had quite a bit of disent both in the begining and its final days

Chile, same example

Just because you and I are able to post and express disent does not make your point valid, just from a historical perspective

And I get tired of shit like this trying to silence people because they don't match your thinking

Open a freaking history book as in a real one

Oh and there was quite a bit of resistence in things like novels and even movies throughout Franco's regime

This is only the beginning.

Don't you see the danger in that?

Does the survival of German Jews prove that Adolf Hitler was not fascist?

Please think this over.

Where the government is controlled by private industry or vice versa. It has nothing to do with whether you can post here or not. Hitler and Mussolini were fascists even before they took office.

--IMM

Fascism will do until they come up with a better word.

of imperialism.

The must be an umbrella term that describes the whole system. Or, maybe we've invented something new. :(

and control people evolve of course. One could argue that whatever the Bush admin is, it is more sophisticated and insidious.

insidious:
Something insidious is gradually and stealthily harmful or destructive: Cancer is often an insidious disease; His constant criticism had an insidious effect on morale and goodwill.

How did Mussolini's describe fascism?

Marriage of State and Corporation.


Nazi's are a political party in Germany circa 1933 thru 1945. GWB is not a Nazi.
Rome, Spain, France, the UK, Portugal, Gemany, USA, all went thru periods of Imperialism, or Imperialistic rule. Of those examples, Germany & the USA became Fascist.

Oligarchy by its latin root is Money & state or goverment. So Oligarchy becomes Government by the monied. Some might think thats very close to fascism, I would agree.
Other definitions have Oligarchy as "state" & "few".

Obverse:
noun
Definition:

1. main side of coin or medal: the side of a coin or medal that has the more important design on it, especially a head.
See also reversen (sense 6)

2. counterpart: a counterpart, complement, or opposite

3. logic equivalent categorical proposition: a proposition derived from another proposition by denying it and then negating the predicate. The obverse of "Everything is possible" is "Nothing is impossible."

So it maybe that fascism is not the obverse of imperialism.

im·pe·ri·al·ism


noun
Definition:

1. belief in empire-building: the policy of extending the rule or influence of a country over other countries or colonies

2. domination by empire: the political, military, or economic domination of one country over another

3. takeover and domination: the extension of power or authority over others in the interests of domination

From wiki

Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

One way Hitler stirred up anger against Jews was by promoting the idea of a Jewish banking conspiracy and how they were controlling the economy. All the while, he had the backing of his own bankers and business bigwigs who were banking on Germany's future imperial dominance.

Bush and his cronies have stirred up anger against Muslims by promoting the idea of an "Islamo-Fascist" conspiracy. Several of his supporters have taken the idea farther to include all of Islam as being in on this conspiracy. All the while, Bush and Cheney have been working in the best interests of Big Oil, including Saudi royals.

And of Course GWB's grand dad was in on the US fascist movement in the 1920's - 1930's, with tenious links to the plot to overthrow FDR in IIRC '34. I could go on, but yes there are many interesting parallels.

I was thinking of it as one side of the coin is what happens to us here and the other side is what this government does to the world, out there. The relation between the two seems so symbiotic to me and I guess it took BushCo to make me almost understand that.

:-(

http://www.bushflash.com/14.html
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

The classical Italan definition is the marraige of corporation and state. GWB's grandfather Prescott had tenious connections with the Fascistic plot to overthrow FDR circa 1934.

Private control of the government by corporate interests. But I'm afraid it goes beyond the current administration.

resemble nothing so much as a small group of fascists trying to change a democratic system of government one step at a time.

This administration is as fascistic as John Dillinger or the Purple Gang. They are criminals basically motivated by greed and all of the neo-con rhetoric is bullshit of the first water. The people making the bucks are more than happy to let the Kristol's and Perle's and Wolfowitz's play their game of empire making, just as long as the Halliburton bucks roll in.

There isn't an ounce of leadership or integrity in the lot of them.

It was on either The Daily Show or The Colbet Report as I recall.

Look at it this way... by the time it IS fascism, you won't here a thing about it.

the net.

I don't need to call them fascists although they clearly are. Kleptocrats works just as well for me.

Just waiting for the excuction order be be given.

I wonder if executors will be patriotic enough to not go through with it.

to implement (or not implement) such an order.

Tech complicates everything. Who is tasked with this -- someone out of the Pentagon? We'll see sooner than later.

FBI most likely, probably with some help by the NSA. Maybe local or state police as well to secure areas after they are closed down. It would be a manner of siezing the telecom buildings and shutting down the communications. DSL, telephone, cable internet.

Places like the DU or DailyKos would probably be raided and their servers seized and owners imprisoned.

enabler for not bringing the administration down........

so far.

They would never let American citizens be tortured, let alone rendered to countries that torture or lock us up without due process or allow business to influence their votes or intrude religion into statecraft or . . ..

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"Then every member of Congress is a Fascist enabler for not bringing the administration down." Dang, taking you at your word and now you insult me.

If you really believe that, why are you

A. Living in a country that has gone completely over to the dark side

B. Posting on a community that supports Democrats, the same democrats that have supposedly "sold us all down the river"........

A. You have the black/white thing going also. "gone completely over to the dark side" I don't agree with. I am here because I am continuing to fight for making this country better rather than bailing on it. Yet.

B. Again you put words into my mouth. Have you stopped beating your dog yet?

If you say it is a fascist country, you have your own black whitething going........

If you say it is not a fascist country, you have your own black whitething going......

That is a rather silly argument. If I answer yes, then I am thinking black/white. No, I see shades of grey but am calling this duck a duck. Not as bad as some other ducks, not as good as some other ducks, but a duck none the less.

I am saying it is not Fascist so I am saying white........My cat thanks you for calling CPS Cat Protective Services.......

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1122026&mesg_id=1122026

Lots of interesting and usefull info in it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Well, don't the world revolve around you.

Ooops sorry, I'm just a little frazzled by another posters behavior towards me...sorry uppity......

Posting on the same threads is not stalking. That is a silly as saying because you replied to me here, and on another thread, you are stalking me. Which you might be, but that is another issue. Simply posting on the same threads, replying to you, that is not stalking. If you have stalking concerns, hit alert and let the mods figure it out. But this is not stalking.

Seems that poster is ignoring you.

And you didn't reply to my question. Posting a link to a topic the poster started is stalking you?

It's strange now isn't? I've known you for what? three years now and I guess I'm not supposed to communicate with you anymore. Oh well :hi:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Let me tell you something,...just because someone is persistent about a disagreement with your opinion IS NOT BEING STALKED.

Trust me on this.

You are on a conversation board you can TURN OFF, AT WILL.

A stalker,...invades your life.

:rofl:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

we'll see what happens now that this person is on ignore.

on ignore? Talk to me, yes, please.

sorry for the confusion. The other person has engaged in strange behavior, following me around, googling my screename, insulting me and then denying it...I have been advised to put them on ignore and have now done so.

We are very opposite sides of issues. And you keep replying to me replying to the other poster. I wonder if you both have each other on ignore?

but as far as I'm concerned the issue is over, that person can be as delusional as they want without having me know about it and respond.

:hi: :hug: I only have had one person on ignore the whole time I've been here! Very sorry I didn't mean to get you in the middle of this, please accept my apology

My mind is in a whirl. I had someone on ignore once (tried super ignoring 1 once also which was really a pain) but it got annoying. Now I just try to pay attention to who I am replying to, though sometimes I miss. Got a good sized buddy/reverse buddy list and no, I don't have problems remembering who is on the buddy side on who is on the watch side.

read a little hsitory, the parallels are there

schwarzes wasser or something like that.

I call them fascists in the open.
They work right out of Hitler's book.
And if anyone is too upset, I'll see you at dawn with your choice of weapon.

but i do`t think we will ever get there.

He does not have a free hand in the sense that Adolf Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, or any other totalitarian dictator had. Mainly: He still has to deal with a quasi-functioning republic.

NO doubt about it!

its too their advantage.

The thing is "led" by a fifth-generation fascist.

I didn't answer. I don't think this is a fascist administration. I think it is certainly more totalitarian/authoritarian than all the previous administrations I've been alive for (I started with Carter...well, he's the first I was old enough to remember).

People use words like fascist and nazi around here like crazy. I don't really think some people know what they mean. As the first responder pointed out, if this were a fully fascist regime, there wouldn't be a DU.

When companies and government benefeit each other at the expense of everyone else you have fascism

it's hard not to say yes. Of course, then it's also hard to make the argument that the Clinton administration was not fascist.

the yes, your observation is astute. Although I would argue it was decidedly less so than nowadays. We've been decidedly proto-fascist for 30 years, but Bush pushed us over the edge.

Things are definitely worse now than 30 years ago, but it has been building up for a while. It seems (to me anyway) that some here view this as something that * brought with him when he got "elected". IMHO, the reverse is true and that it's this structure that has been in government (and the media) for some time now that brought * to power.

A social safety net goes a long way in curbing some of the worst and most notable effects of fascism, but fascism eventually will have to unveil the mask when the stealth is no longer easy to maintain. They unveiled the mask, and the face that was revealed underneath it is Bush.

They had to unveil the mask for the coming resource wars and population bottlenecks that are inevitable results of rampant opportunism.

30 yrs ago about our government, our society, and coming up with fascism then. Not totalitarianism, but definetly fascist tendencies. I also agree that it has gotten pushed forward so much more in the last 6 yrs.

by Benito Mussolini

I used to think so, but I think we are more of an old fashioned empire, now, Imperialists perhaps. :shrug:

Bread and circuses for everyone!! :bounce:

I'll vote "No"

Arrogant? Absolutely. Insolent and overbearing? You bet. Insolent, crooked and overbearing? Another check in the "yes" box.

But not fascist. That I can write the above demonstrates to me that we are not at this time living in a fascist state.

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>


The Free Dictionary:

1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.




The current government does, indeed, come within the limits of those definitions.

What is it going to take to stop them?

:hi:

Hitler & Christian Anti-Communism (Book Notes: The Hitler Myth)
People often wonder how and why Hitler could have acquired so much support from the German population. Any reasonable explanation would have to be very complicated, but it is possible to cite one simple reason which has a lot going for it: anti-Communism. Many Germans were frightened of communism and saw Hitler as their Christian salvation.

If something can be worse. :(

all turns is not fascist........This is more proof of you screaming fire in a crowded movie theater.

Communists engaged in torture
Fascists engage in torture
Monarchies engage in torture
Democracies engage in torture
Republics engage in torture

By your definition they must all be Fascist.......

It's not that torture is unique to fascism. It has, after all, been around since the Dark Ages, and remained alive as a component of theocratic and feudal states for centuries. Certainly it has always been a commonplace feature of communist regimes as well, with the Soviets and Chinese providing abundant examples. What can be said generally is that torture is a feature of totalitarianism, regardless of its content.

But it occupies a unique position in the fascist ideological hierarchy, which is, after all, not so much a cohesive ideology but a multifaceted pathology. What makes fascism so potent on a personal level is its psychosexual component, expressed mostly as a desire to purge "unhealthy" elements through eliminationist violence, including the control of the body of the Other, and the ability to inflict purgative pain and suffering on that body. (For more on this, see Klaus Theweleit's study of this aspect of fascism, Male Fantasies, especially Vol. II.)



Fascists are particularly fond of torture because it represents such a complete expression of the fascist will to power. So when a nation adopts torture as an officially condoned policy -- as the United States has just done -- it immediately raises the specter that, indeed, it may be descending into the fascist abyss.

And has tried really hard to get us there.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/63/21746

By Marc Ash
t r u t h o u t | Perspective

Friday 11 August 2006

Reveling in yesterday's announcement that a plot to blow up American Airlines planes departing from British airports had been foiled by British authorities, George W. Bush leapt at the opportunity to sell his "war on terra" to whoever would listen. Using the best Madison Avenue technique money can buy, he was even ready to roll out a new slogan du jour on cue for the event. Today's phrase that pays: We are at war with "Islamic fascists."

First let me say that if British law enforcement did in fact do all of what the US mainstream press is implying they did, I thank them for finding an efficient, non-violent way to guard the public safety. "Efficient" and "non-violent" being the key words in the preceding sentence.

Efficiency and non-violence have been glaringly absent from US-British national security operations over the past five years. And that absence contributes greatly to the current atmosphere of conflict. War and a warlike mentality are espoused at every turn as the remedies of choice in dealing with all threats to Western security. As a result, Western security has suffered.

What worked in foiling the plot to destroy the airliners was good old fashioned police work and a solid investigation. Not military action. The tools used by British authorities are tools that were available on September 11th 2001. They were available the day the US invaded Iraq, and they are available today. We have always had good tools to safeguard our security. Launching massive invasions is not helping, it's adding to the rage that fuels the madness.

Fascism at Issue

Since, Mr. Bush, you have chosen to put the issue of fascism before the public, it begs a broader dialog on fascism's role in our lives today. I accept the challenge to enter that dialog. Frankly Mr. Bush, many Americans refer to you as a fascist. There really isn't any other way to state that than bluntly. Blowing up an airliner full of passengers is barbaric and completely unacceptable, regardless of the objectives of those involved, but it really doesn't fit the definition of fascism.

From Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language:

FASCISM: A system of government characterized by rigid one party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerent nationalism, racism and militarism, etc.
That's really the heart of the matter now isn't it, Mr. Bush. One might wonder if you are troubled by by the specter of fascism in your inner thoughts when you cast the accusation wildly into the public discourse.

What would the people of Iraq say about fascism if asked? But then they haven't been asked, have they - they've been liberated, of course. What would our founding fathers say about detention without due process, without end? Electronic surveillance of all Americans, without regard for the law? What is democracy if the citizens have no confidence in the integrity of their elections? Our military hurls five-hundred pound bombs all day and all night. They land on whom they land on. It is not an isolated act of madness, it is a coordinated act of state. All the while private corporations profit wildly.

Fascism, Mr. Bush, is not your strongest card. You should change the subject again.

Besides, broadbrush insulting isn't very nice.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

bwahahahahahahaha.

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll,"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

so is baiting someone.......

I didn't call you a freeper, I said your behavior was freeperish......so try again........

Baiting is not against the rules. Replying to baits with insults is not. Some people here are master baiters, so beware.

Looks like mods disagreed with you though.

here are some tittles of interest

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

They Thought they were Free

COnsevatives without a Conscience.

That should be a good begiing and will keep you busy

You might want to add The Banality of Evil... but the first three might be enough to get you thinking

I have read all three of those books and own the first two..........Will check out that last one........Having read those books, I still see nothing that makes me believe we live under Fascism........we are nowhere near Fascism......The existence of this site, and Dkos and firedoglake and Free Republic and all other sites that flame this govt or lick its ass are one of the strongest arguments that we are not living in Fascism.......Under Fascism Randi Rhodes would be dead, Under Fascism Skinner would be in jail. Under Fascism Ron Pal would not be tolerated.............I can go on for hours.......It's so incredibly frustrating to see otherwise intelligent people label this country Fascism, it is quite illogical......

which is only one example

You can also look at Franco's Spain

Pinochet's Chile

Or for that matter Mussolini's Italy

All, during their early and middle evolution allowed opposing opinions and even massive demonstrations to take place. Yes the equivakent of Randi or Malloy were still around agitating and making waves.

Damn that history degree!

You are also using very black and white thinking of what those states looked near the end... with the exception of Franco's spain, where there was far more opposition before he died and why Spain has evolved the way it has... at the end, in the last faces (for germany 1937, for Italy 1939, yes as late as '39, and for Pinochet as late as '77 you still had demonstrations and opposition papers.

Now we have what sarcastic folks in latin America call dictablanda... a weak dictatorship. In this kind of a system, which can be quite fascist (and given by definition fascism is the mixture of corporations and the state and you will have a hell of a time making the argument we don't have corporations writing legislations (since they have done it) you allow most people to go on with their "normal" lives, but all means of contact or influence between the regular citizen and the government are gone. But the legal means to clamp down are already in place, and they ARE already in place.

Fascism does not necessarily mean camps, and Italy didn't have them, neither did Franco's Spain. Now Germany did, and Chile had thousands who went missing... though we do have one that you might argue shares many things in common with early Bergen Belsen. (Guantamo), well before it became the house of horrors it became later on... and we have had citizens disappear from our streets, and citizens denied habeas corpus. We are closer to the dystopian side of fascism that you identify as such. That is your totalitarian state, than I (or survivors for Nazi Germany I have talked to over the years) are comfortable with. But make no mistake, by the classic definition of fascism, which is it should more properly called corporatism, we are there. And that definition was coined by the founder of the system, and I think I will trust Benito Mussolini on it quite frankly.

They're monarchists (or, technically "monocratic") rather than fascist. They have some things in common with fascism, but then so does classical Progressivism. For that matter, you could call everyone who supports the graduated income tax a Marxist since Karl Marx was the first person to advocate it.

It's a basic logical fallacy. Bush is bad and fascism is bad, therefor Bush is a fascist.

There's a number of reasons why Bush & company are not actual fascists.

Fascism supports trade unionism, while Bushco attacks unions and supports right to work laws.

Fascism is purely nationalistic, while Bushco supports liberalized immigration laws for the purpose of expanding the low-wage labor pool.

Fascism is anti-democratic, while Bush gives constant lip service to democratic ideas. Fascists never bother stealing an election. They reject both the need for popular votes and the concept of popular sovereignty.

Fascism tends to have a populist appeal, while Bush is an elitist ("I call you mah base-hyuck hyuck")

Fascism is corporatist. While Bush hand jobs large corporations, his followers do not believe in the philosophy of "corporatism" -- the view that all people in a society are part of the state as the parts of the body are parts of the whole person. They're looting the government for the short term and some, like Grover Norquist, are trying to shrink the government. They aren't exalting the state except where it serves their interests to scare us and hold onto power. Where exalting individual rights--especially those of the elite--serves their power and interests, they embrace that rhetoric instead.

They are corrupt and aristocratic and plutocratic and monarchial. They have police state tendencies. They lie and use propaganda like fascists. But then again, they lie and use propaganda like communists do as well.

Even putting nazi style atrocities aside (although I'd argue fascism inevitably leads to some kinds of atrocities), calling Bush a fascist shows a wilfull ignorance about what life under a fascist regime would really be like. Under a fascist, you don't get called "unpatriotic" for criticizing the government, you get arrested or disappeared for doing so.

some people will start harassing you........... :eyes:

Excellent post.............

-"Fascism supports trade unionism"

Says who?

-"Fascism is purely nationalistic, while Bushco supports liberalized immigration laws for the purpose of expanding the low-wage labor pool"

You mean he supports liberalized immigration laws for the purpose of having more rights-free workers to exploit. Fascism version 2 is trans-national.

-"Fascism tends to have a populist appeal"

Ever heard of Bill O'Reiley?

-"Fascism is anti-democratic, while Bush gives constant lip service to democratic ideas."

Sorry, lip service doesn't count.

-"...'corporatism' -- the view that all people in a society are part of the state"

By whose definition? The corporations do not need to be subservient to the state, it may also be vice-versa. The crucial point is the melding of the two.

-"Under a fascist, you don't get called "unpatriotic" for criticizing the government, you get arrested or disappeared for doing so."

That's old-school fascism. Version two does not require that to keep us in line. It's more subtle and, as several have noted, insidious.

Bahh

and to use a term the RWers loved using during the Clinton days "morally bankrupt"...BUT I will say it is evident that this administration's policies have allowed true, hard-core fascists in the military, corporate world, church and washington to creep in through the gaps and strengthen their hold on the nation

They are worse because they are destroying MORE than their own nation for their obsession with power,...they are wreaking havoc on all humanity.

AND

THEY! DO! NOT! GIVE! A! DAMN!!!!!

CONSUME THAT: THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN!!!!!

REPEAT!!!! THEY DO NOT GIVE A DAMN!!!

,...oops,...actually, they TAKE because they DO GIVE A DAMN about NOTHING OTHER THAN THEMSELVES.

So,...I am wrong. They will GIVE A DAMN FOR THEMSELVES TO THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL OF US TO THE DAY THEY DIE.

Sorry. My mistake.

http://www.crisispapers.org/essays/fascist.htm

No Other Way To Say This: Torture Memos Reveal Fascist Mentality
June 17, 2004
By Bernard Weiner, The Crisis Papers

Conveniently buried in the all-Reagan-all-the-time news coverage last week was the smoking-gun revelation, in the so-called torture-memos, that the Bush Administration was actively engaged in setting up a governmental system where Bush becomes the sole law of the land. In this set-up, no court, no legislature, nobody can touch him. He is to be the Supreme Leader.

There's no other way to say this, even though it pains me to acknowledge it: what is revealed in these torture memos are the foundations for a kind of fascist rule in America. The object was (and is) to establish Bush as an extra-constitutional dictator, under cover of "law." You'll understand in a moment why there are quotation marks around that word.

Here's a quick reprise of how we got to this place. After 9/11, when suspected terrorists and Talibanists wouldn't talk at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo, the Bush Administration set their lawyers a mighty task: find a way to justify the torture of prisoners for the purposes of extracting information, but in a way that will not put the torturers or those who authorized the torture in any legal jeopardy under existing American anti-torture laws and international anti-torture conventions and treaties.

Sheldon Drobny

Rage Fatigue Syndrome (RFS): America's New Epidemic

Last night I was listening to the Mike Malloy Show. Mike was asking his listeners if they had what he called "rage fatigue." I was in our Nova M Radio founders chat room and all of us agreed that we were all exhausted from the feeling of powerlessness that has been caused by Bush and the gutless MSM. This country has collectively been subjected to the most egregious psychological challenge since the Great Depression.

Fortunately for America, FDR took office in 1933 with his famous inaugural speech quotation; "The only thing we have to fear is, fear itself." This country had to face a worldwide depression and an impending world war and yet our leader held us psychologically together with the wonderful Roosevelt optimism. The threat to America then was far greater than it is today. The post war nuclear arms race was much more of a danger to our existence than any threat of terrorism inside or outside the United States. As Michael Bloomberg has been saying for many years, the chances of being killed by a terrorist are about the same as being hit by lightening. And yet the Bush Administration aided and abetted by corporate self-serving media have made terrorism a cottage industry.

Goebbels and the Nazis exemplified the success of the big lie in media in the 1930s that also exploited fear to rally the German people into their own self-destruction. In the case of the German media, at least they could say that they were afraid to tell the truth. What in heavens name is the excuse for the reporters and newscasters who know the truth and still refuse to state the obvious? Are they so afraid of losing their jobs that they would allow these lies to go on without comment?

When Katie Couric started broadcasting the CBS Evening News, she and her producers featured the first pictures of Tom Cruise's new daughter. Not only was that an insult to the listeners, it was hardly in the tradition of CBS News people like Edward R. Morrow or Walter Cronkite. What she should have done on her premiere show was to do what Walter Cronkite did in 1968 when he told the nation that the Viet Nam War was a failure. President Johnson famously said after that, "if I have lost Walter Cronkite, I have lost the nation." What a breath of fresh air and what momentum she would have gotten if she would have done something similar on her premiere show. Instead she listened to Les Moonves and his ilk in corporate media to launch her disastrous start. Both will deservedly be out of a job soon.

Unfortunately that is the rule rather than the exception. All of these news anchors act as if they are merely observers that have to remain neutral. Sorry, that is a copout. A person who truly cares for others and humanity does not become a bystander in such an obviously corrupt and evil environment. The Nazis would have murdered any newscaster that betrayed them. What excuse do Brian Williams, Charles Gibson, and Tim Russert have for not speaking up? They are already very rich. Does being famous and rich out trump saving the country from the madness that is going on? You can't help your country and humanity without taking risks. And it is not like they are risking their lives to do this as our soldiers in Iraq have been doing. .....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldon-drobny/rage-fatigue-syndrome-rf_b_53065.html

to escape justice.
This guy wasn't so lucky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Streicher
......Julius Streicher (February 12, 1885 – October 16, 1946) was a prominent Nazi prior to and during World War II. He was the publisher of the Nazi Der Stürmer newspaper, which was to become a part of the Nazi propaganda machine. His publishing firm released three anti-Semitic books for children, including the 1938 Der Giftpilz (The Poison Mushroom), one of the most widespread pieces of propaganda, which purported to warn about insidious dangers Jews posed by using the metaphor of an attractive yet deadly mushroom. After the war, he was convicted of crimes against humanity and executed..........

Hopefully we will see more such verdicts in the future.

Fascists

By John T. Flynn

11/02/06 Information Clearing House "This article is excerpted from chapter ten of As We Go Marching (1944). The entire ebook is available in PDF as a free download.]

First let us state our definition of fascism. It is, put briefly, a system of social organization in which the political state is a dictatorship supported by a political elite and in which the economic society is an autarchic capitalism, enclosed and planned, in which the government assumes responsibility for creating adequate purchasing power through the instrumentality of national debt and in which militarism is adopted as a great economic project for creating work as well as a great romantic project in the service of the imperialist state.

Broken down, it includes these devices:
1 A government whose powers are unrestrained.
2 A leader who is a dictator, absolute in power but responsible to the party which is a preferred elite.
3 An economic system in which production and distribution are carried on by private owners but in accordance with plans made by the state directly or under its immediate supervision.
4 These plans involve control of all the instruments of production and distribution through great government bureaus which have the power to make regulations or directives with the force of law.
5 They involve also the comprehensive integration of government and private finances, under which investment is directed and regimented by the government, so that while ownership is private and production is carried on by private owners there is a type of socialization of investment, of the financial aspects of production. By this means the state, which by law and by regulation can exercise a powerful control over industry, can enormously expand and complete that control by assuming the role of banker and partner.
6 They involve also the device of creating streams of purchasing power by federal government borrowing and spending as a permanent institution.
7 As a necessary consequence of all this, militarism becomes an inevitable part of the system since it provides the easiest means of draining great numbers annually from the labor market and of creating a tremendous industry for the production of arms for defense, which industry is supported wholly by government borrowing and spending.
8 Imperialism becomes an essential element of such a system where that is possible – particularly in the strong states, since the whole fascist system, despite its promises of abundance, necessitates great financial and personal sacrifices, which people cannot be induced to make in the interest of the ordinary objectives of civil life and which they will submit to only when they are presented with some national crusade or adventure on the heroic model touching deeply the springs of chauvinistic pride, interest, and feeling.

Where these elements are found, there is fascism, by whatever name the system is called. And it now becomes our task to look very briefly into our own society and to see to what extent the seeds of this system are present here and to what degree they are being cultivated and by whom.

In the light of all this we can see how far afield we can be led by those who seek for the roots of fascism by snooping around among those futile crackpot or deliberately subversive groups which flourish feebly under the leadership of various small-bore führers. Some of these groups are outright anti-American like the Bundists. Such an organization had nothing to do and can have nothing to do with introducing a new system of society into America. Its object was to assist Hitler in so far as it could in his war aims here. It was an enemy organization – and an incredibly foolish one.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15478.htm

This is how fascism comes—with a show of opposition followed by high-profile compromise, and assurances that all is well.

This is how fascism comes, with quiet streets and everyone going about their business

That lack a suitable police state apparatus and an unarmed civilian population. And they are very corrupt too, but that is another issue.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

Fascist?

Oh yes.

don't be a drama person of royalty

Try it, you'll like it!

this is consumer capitalism. it seduces us into slavery, provides an incentive for technological and cultural progress, and reduces each of us into gladiator-citizens

it's nice!