Shocking New Details Of Abu Ghraib: Father & Son Forced To Do Acts Together

SHOCKING NEW DETAILS OF ABU GHRAIB: 'FATHER
AND SON FORCED TO DO ACTS TOGETHER...'

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"The notion... that our leader, Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense and his aides, they all went and testified in May after the stories about Abu Ghraib became public that 'oh my God, we just didn't know about, we didn't realize how serious it was,' is simply not true."

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"It's sort of ridiculous. Everybody at the top, by the middle of January, knew," Hersh said. "The only question I raise at the end of the article, is what the president know, when?"

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"It's not when they saw the photographs," Hersh stresses. "It's when they learned how serious it was. They were told in memos what the photographs showed... They showed other, more sexual abuse than we knew, sodomy of women prisons by American soldiers, a father and his son forced to do acts together. There was more stuff was made public. You didn't need a photograph if you had a verbal description of it.

"It's quite implicit," he added. "They knew very quickly this was bad."

Wolf Interviews Hersh:
VIDEO and more at:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Seymour_Hersh_shocking_new_Abu_Ghraib_0617.html

I read that and....well...

What can I say that hasn't been said a million times before?

(Imprison America's war criminal executive)

the the lunatics drumming up support for this perverted misbegotten war are to blame.

no, they didn't explicitly say to torture people -- but they let it be known that the iraqi were to ''blame'' for all our woes and that we were ''right'' to seek vengeance in iraq.

nobody gets a pass for being a worthless world destroying scumbag. "gee, the president and command chain sure wants me to get information, guess I better sodomize this poor frightened kid".

But yes, the command chain, even as disgusting as the above is, bears even MORE responsibility.

"following orders" is not an excuse. I would risk court martial if asked to make any human being do that. Does this mean I do not support the troops? No, it just means I do not support perversion and those responsible simply are.

dirty linen at your court martial. You would simply find yourself reassigned to the shittiest job they could find for you.

Not that there were ever any orders. Are you familiar with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment">Stanford Prison Experiment? No orders were necessary. Just the handing of total authority to the gaolers and no higher authority.

When the Abu Grahib stuff surfaced I thought of all the soldiers who knew it was wrong but got nowhere taking it up the chain of command. I mean young people who went out there thinking they were going to be standing up for America stranded in a foreign land with no way home forced to at least bear witness to these atrocities.

My dad was in the army back in the Korean Conflict (prior to Vietnam war) and he got all the way up to Master Sargent and back down to PFC due to the fact that he would stand up for his men with his fists if need be to dullard higher command.

I guessed that people like him who couldn't make the system change at all and who saw the military's honor and integrity beaten down with every torture either did hari kari or were killed to make it look like suicide.

obscene behavior didn't have a responsibility to THINK?????

to commit torture by the leadership here in the u.s.

we weren't after justice -- we were after revenge and doing wholesale damage -- and that's what we did -- from shock and awe to abu ghraib.

top to bottom we acted with a savage, animalistic bent -- these guys were caught. that's all.

damn thing to do with 911. Or anything.

They just have oil, that's all.

i'm talking about americans taking responsibility for the mess they created including abu ghraib.

no, i didn't individually committ the crimes in abu ghraib -- but i am a citizen of this country -- and here we confer on citizens to be responsible for their government.

and -- just to be clear -- you didn't commit the crimes either.


unless i'm mistaken -- i think we agree here more than disagree.

That's what I pretty much meant.

there is no guilt on the part of the individual here.

i am saying there is another kind of guilt -- that bushco pushed EVERYONE into -- a madness if you will.

and that allowed for the systemic sickness at abu ghraib to rear it's ugly head.

Enlisted personnel don't get to question orders or the legality thereof. You do what you are told when you are told to do it.

They make mention in training about not having to follow illegal orders, but then they make it very clear that any order that comes from a superior is by definition legal and therefor not open to question.

No-one with an "E" in front of their pay-grade should have to bear any responsibility for what goes wrong in a combat zone because they have no control over it.

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some of the excuses that the Nazi officers and soldiers gave at Nuremberg. It didn't save them, and
it shouldn't save any American soldier stupid or frightened enough to engage in these atrocities.

This whole "we were only following orders" thing is pure garbage. Men and women of honor would absolutely refuse to
follow orders like this. No one would order or participate in coercing the abuse of a son by
his father; nor would any honorable person sodomize anyone.

There is no excuse for any of the piss-poor behavior that took place. None. Orders like this
are to be rebelled against, no matter what.

This excuse is now being tried by 25 CIA agents on trial in Italy for kidnapping someone who was then flown to Cairo to be tortured.

Here is an excellent film showing how much respect is being conferred on those involved in rendition . . . through the extreme generosity of the US taxpayer who is lavishing the most decadent lifestyles upon these people.

Lifestyles of the Rich and Sadistic: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/83083

And that any one can just refuse orders they don't like? Refusing orders in a combat situation can get you and your buddies killed.

Are you willing to let some guy who signed up to serve his country with the most honorable intentions, some guy who was just looking for for money for college, some guy making $1100 a month, take the fall for all the officers above him?

The officers bear ultimate responsibility; they either ordered it or they failed to properly supervise those in their command. Either way, the troops should not be scapegoats for failed leadership.

To the best of my knowledge no soldiers were convicted or even tried at Nuremberg. It was all high-ranking officers and government officials. Pleas someone who has more detailed knowledge of the history, correct me if I'm wrong.

a conscripted army. Career soldiers depend on the military leadership for lifelong support and are more inclined to follow immoral orders to please their superiors. Draftees are well armed civilians at heart and know their time in uniform is brief, returning to civilian status when their time is up. This is not to say draftees would not follow immoral orders, but less inclined as they just want to put in their time and go home, knowing the military leaders who issue immoral edicts can be ignored without consequence once discharged. An all volunteer military would also be more inclined to a coup if ordered by the brass. The conscripts, with a different life agenda, would think twice about a military confiscation of civilian power as they really don't like being under the UCMJ as it suspends civil liberties and enslaves those in uniform because military objectives, in general, require following orders without question.
I know if some lunatic officer ordered me to march into the House of Representatives and forcefully remove duly elected members I would have been more inclined to take that officer into custody and turn him over to civilian authorities as a threat to the Constitution I swore to defend.
Those career volunteers, reliant on military leadership for housing, clothing, food and general sustenance, might be more inclined to just do what they're told.

"But I didn't want to mess up a good oil-profits thing, so I LIED about the WMDs and sent YOUR sons and daughter off to Iraq
I had my reasons, as my republicon oil cronies know - so you tax-paying American citizens can just shut the fuck up and sit down
Smirk, smirk, smirk"

- Commander AWOL



Unphotoshopped image of Commander AWOL and his intimate Saudi oil cronies

I believe it was by our own mopaul (does he still post here?)--in the original, they were very close together, but not actually touching as in this one. I remember clearly when the PS was posted, the original was fresh in the news at the time.

MoPaul, that rascal

Well, this photo ain't been jigged -- its from MSNBC -- and same thing: Commander aWOL with his sphincter (lips) on Saudi wallets

--because the relationship between the two is clear as day--also the fact noted in the body language that the Saudis' "personal boundaries" are apparently a lot less than those of Americans--and guess whose take precedence? The dogturd doesn't seem to be exactly repelled or trying to pull back even a little bit from what would make any "normal" American highly uncomfortable. Notice the tight grip on his arm--it is clear who is "running things."

The military doesn't like people who think. That's one of the primary functions of boot camp--to destroy any capacity or desire for independent thought.

is to be of good moral character. These are educated men and women who have a lot of power and authority (such as colonels and generals) to refuse the orders of someone who would try to make them do something immoral (so much good that did). A shame more of them didn't do what was expected of them the way LT. Watada did in calling the Iraq War unjustified and immoral.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/killing-soldiers-humanity/2007/06/03/1180809336364.html

....and I also believe the leaders all the way up the chain of command knew everything that was going on and they need to be nailed for these atrocities

Congress saw all before the 2004 election.

They ordered it!

to humanity - They chose the United States of Corporations. I will post fewer messages on DU as I try to reconcile the truth of it all and not irritate. I will fight against Clinton, Biden, and all the others. Dems are not pure and honest. Dems know and side with 'despicable' and it happened with their knowledge based votes. Don't let them kid you.

how they sleep at night I'll never know.

spontaneous abortion of all with that condition would help a lot

Sounds like the DoD was listening to the Focus On The Family guy.

can't get out of his head.

The screams haven't changed since the Spanish Inquisition and they never will I'm afraid.

winning the hearts and minds. What a disgrace.

sure would be nice if an MSM talking mouth would trumpet this -- calling Nancy Grace...

after Abu Ghraib revelations - they left Kerry, Dean and Clark out there on their own calling for Rummy to go in 2003 and 2004 while they backed Bush and Rummy with their silent support.

The Democrats in Congress sat on their hands and watched bushco steal the 2004 elections and did NOTHING. They KNEW how horrible this administration was - they had the evidence. Videos of children being sodomized in front of their mothers. They've known about this for years and done nothing. It makes them complicit.

On edit--really wouldn't want this trumpeted at this point--we have our troops already endangered enough over there, I'd sure hate to add more fuel to the fire against them.

happening to those imprisoned? Why would you think it should be hidden? No protection for the Iraqi people, only for US soldiers?

It's an awful situation all around, but we have lost at least a few (innocent, uninvolved) soldiers because of retribution for various acts, and I cringe at the thought of more of our folks getting tortured/killed. If it's already common knowledge, then OK.

there will be to put a stop to the torture of prisoners/detainees/innocent Iraqis/Afghanis. As long as it is hidden there will be NO pressure upon the US government/Pentagon to halt the practice of torture. Halting the practice of torture will go much further to reduce the anger/hatred of the Iraqis/Afghanis than simply trying to hide the fact these atrocities happened and are still happening, imo.

Edited to add additional thought.

It's an illegal war, waged on behalf of criminals, based on lies. The United States of America has violated the Geneva Conventions. Hell, we've violated all the tenets of human decency.

Keeping it quiet to protect soldiers makes no sense. Bring the soldiers home and get them out of harm's way.

How many dozens of innocent Iraqi's die for each soldier killed?

Of course to the families of those dead soldiers, the loss of a son, daughter, father, mother it's a world shaking event, but in the bigger picture it's barely a blip.

in the resistance to mortar the female part of the compound at night to kill the female detainees, so they would not have to live with the shame.

touched upon, I have no doubt the worst has yet to become known except to the Iraqis who are, imo, well aware of what occurred.

The only ones who don't know what Bush has been doing to the Iraqis are the American people.

Don

Just like despite their protestations, the DSM proves they cooked the evidence to illegally invade Iraq. But it makes no difference to those we rely on to enforce the rule of law.

I watched "The Trial of Tony Blair" last night. It was gratifying to see bLiar having to face the music, even fictionally. But the chilling reality is he's being offered a stint as President of the EU, a position that's being created for him.

What does it say about the state of governance when the only way one can hope to see war criminals answer for their crimes is on celluloid?

From the bottom to the top, the disgusting people who ordered and committed these acts need to be punished.

Sick. Cruel. Perverted.

think of the mental sickness and perverseness that dreamed up these acts. Surely we do not
want people like that loosed on the population here.

H.Rap Brown)

IF that's true then most Americans are sadistic morons.
Lee

...and that's all it will ever be remembered as unless the Higher-ups are held to account for this, which means making everything public.

The only people this is being held back from is Americans.

Nothing like war crimes to get the local population galvanized against the occupation force and justify our presence there..."we can't leave because Iraq isn't stabilized".

What has happened to the morality of the political leadership?

The House of Bush.

The House of Saud.

http://houseofbush.com/

Wonder if Bandar Bush got around to "sharing" that two billion pounds he got off just one deal?

This will bring the administration down. If not, nothing will.

Wesley Clark used the term "stovepipe". He knew back then that this went all the way to the top. The proof is that almost no one was fired. The proof is the emails describing this torture, and no response.

the son and father forced to engage in sexual acts together, there were pictures of female detainees being forced to expose their breasts and one of an American soldier sodomizing a female detainee.

:puke: :cry: :mad:

:mad:

Everyone should do the same. I think this is worthy of a special fuckin prosecutor. Don't you? I don't know how those things get decided but we should put pressure on these guys in congress to do more than hold mother fuckin hearings. We need ACTION that will hopefully lead to some of these assholes actually to end up with jail time.

God I'm sooooooo pissed right now!!!!

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Actually, you sound just like the people in this country
who say "Nuke the rag heads andlet God sort it out."

Think about what you are saying- whether in Iran or
America, the use of nuclear weapons would kill untold numbers of
innocent people.

Besides, another attack on America would only strengthen
the BFEE's dictatorship over America. The "terrists" are much
smarter, the longer they do nothing, the more ridiculous
the whole situation appears- meanwhile billions
of dollars disappear and our infrastructure crumbles.
They simply sit back and watch us destroy ourselves.
No need to attack us, the country is falling apart
without them doing anything at all.

BHN

Like a junkyard dog of tenacity - he won't let Blitzer get away with "the President hadn't seen the pictures yet"

And don't forget, Mary Mapes the Sixty Minutes Two producer and veteran reporter, was the first newsperson to report on Abu Gharib.

She paid for that when in October 2004 she was let go, obstensibly for her "shoddy" work on the George WE AWOL story.

Her work on Abu Gharib did land her and Dan Rather the coveted Peabody Award the spring of 2005.

Where we make family members do things like that to other family members? Shameful, just absolutely shameful.....

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

"Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out."

--more--
After Downing Street

All of the photos and videos need to be made public.

Sy Hersh needs to quit beating around the bush, he was leaked a copy.
What'd he do with it?

We have a couple of centuries of integrity and honesty to our credit, and you War Proifteering Chickenhawk Republicon Torture Pigs are totally fucking over America's good karma and good reputation

America is ashamed of all you republicon chickenhawk war-profiteering torture pigs

Knock it off -- You are making America and America's sons and daughters in uniform less safe (not that chickenhawk republicons would know anything about war danger)

Now

all complicit. When the photos first were shown on TV, the worst War Crimes were ommited. This made it seem that real torture was not practiced only humiliation of Detainees. Sure that was disgusting but the actual brutal torture was glossed over. A few lower level perps were prosecuted and that was to be the end of the case. All of the above were complicit in glossing the real situation over for their own purposes.

:grr:







:cry:

And as will be the inevitable,
some of us will pay a dear price
when Revenge rears its head in our Father Land.

Instead of talking to them like Nixon!

The headline of this AFP article is...

White House denies prior knowledge of Abu Ghraib abuse

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/070618/1/49a9v.html

But that's not what the article says...

"The President said over three years ago that he first saw the pictures of the abuse on television," said White House spokesman Scott Stanzel in Crawford, Texas, where Bush is spending the weekend at his ranch.

They're trying to use the pictures to obscure the fact that Bush knew about the abuse. Which is the same thing Rumsfeld did in his testimony. Hersh said as much in a Sunday interview with the BBC.

:HI:
And do any of us have hopes that at least SOME of our Senators will jump on this and ride the bastards out of washington into prisons? I do!
www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<--- top '08 stickers

These people are vastly sick and disgusting.

The same BushCO/neocon JUNTA that still to this day approves violations of our Constitution, our people, our common values and morals, our agreements with the world, our integrity, our trust, our sense of decency and compassion and ANY HUMAN LIVE IN THEIR WAY!

The BushCO/neocon JUNTA has advantaged themselves on the backs of all of you, all of us, and all of them.

That JUNTA still has the media in its hands, our national blood and treasure in its hands and THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD,...IN ITS HANDS. Except, all humanity is getting tired but inspired cause there is nothing left to reach other than pure inspiration.

U S A! U S A! We're #1! We're #1! and it will all go away. Seems to work for the retardicans (no offense to mentally disabled)

The moment the little bastard came out of nowhere and announced his candidacy, I knew we were in deep shit. When he announced his running mate, the epitome of evil, "El Diablo Cheney", I knew we were screwn!

The big question I'd like answered. Why can't we stop them? Why are they not being marched out of D.C in handcuffs?


TELL ME WHY....... :wtf:

Those are some wild, crazy, zany frat pranks they played on the people in Abu Ghraib! :sarcasm:

the US public needs to be told!

Basically, what the Bush neo-cons have been doing is torturing all of us --
our troops, our citizens, and the people of Iraq.

And when we note the disrespect for females and children, we might think of this GOP which has delivered sexist, racist, and homophobic agendas for decades.
As the right-wing rises, sexual abuse of women and children increases.

Additionally, the homophobic themes played out in this torture is again the product of minds obsessed with homohobia.

Our troops which Sy Hersh has described elsehwere as the most violent and brutal forces ever sent forth by our country will have the greatest of difficulties recovering from these ventures. We've been told they've been instructed to kill anyone on sight. Many are being driven insane by by this war. Those who participate in torture -- and evidently we have medical professionals who have been involved in this!!! -- will themselves suffer for their lifetimes.
You can't escape the fact that when you do harm to someone else, you are harming yourself.

:hi: The widespread visible consequences are aweful. The unseen long-term blowback will be just as bad. Unless we prove ourselves capable of a complete turnaround, politically and socially and economically, the world's not going to be either compassionate for or supportive of this country for a very long time.

(meaning Rumsfeld and so on) Raising the minimum wage by a few cents is (not that they have managed that yet). As is war with Iran-- now that is on the table. Whenever Bush decides (Pelosi took that provision out of the supplemental bill... so apparently does not think it important for reserving the power to declare war only to Congress.

the end of a rope. And at the end of that rope, must be the TOP man.

wasn't that a sign that saddam was evil?

wonder why georgie stopped talking about rape rooms.

was just astounded and sick that we would do that....