Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Is your cell phone spying on you? Listening and taking pictures? The answer is clear.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:07 PM
Original message
Is your cell phone spying on you? Listening and taking pictures? The answer is clear.
Even when you think it is turned off? Newer ones that support email and web services can be used that way if some hacker or agency wants to use it for that purpose. Several families in Washington State have learned this the hard way. Watch the video at this link, there is more detail that the short description contains, and also view the previous report linked at the bottom.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/13548478/detail.html

News you'd rather not hear, but might need to know.

Symantec offers some defensive software for a price - I don't have any idea about how good it is or if there are better solutions. Just a link to show that the problem can be dealt with, and the threat is big enough to that a company like Symantec is developing pprotective software.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh yeah, isn't that effing brilliant?
So the article I read in the Tacoma paper stated that the cell phones have the back doors for tracking terrorists. But if you look at the structure that would let these kids get in in a manner that's totally invisible to those at the cell phone companies and police, you realize that the back doors are set up for survelliance with zero accountability to any oversight structure which is basically the mantra of the Bush administration. But instead of being just in the hands of whoever the bushites intended, they are being discovered by various hackers all over the country and its spreading like a virus. Not just cell phones, but computers and everything. The people spying on you are whoever CAN spy on you...That's where the zero oversight culture has lead us.

Insanity!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Can you dig up a link to that article?
A lot of important stories only get covered by local news organizations, which have some degree of distance from the careful censorship exercised by corporate media over their national/international operations.

And what some sick hacker can do these people, who exposes his access by sending harassing boastful messages, a more sophisticated agency can do without ever leaving a hint.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. A good expose on how hackers can get inside your phone is built into the
Plot of Jeffrey Dever's "The Blue Nowhere" The book is also a neat murder mystery as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. My FAVORITE Jeffrey Deaver book.
I just got through re-reading it just before my baby was born two weeks ago!

I didn't think anyone else had ever heard of it since Deaver's Lincoln Rhyme books are more popular.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
windy252 Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. A Thought
We don't know hackers aren't what Bushco intended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is important
Like all the other important things they are doing to us the past several years. I can't believe it just keeps coming!

k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks. This is 1984 come true, and I had no idea cell phones could be used this way
until I saw that report. Be assured, or, rather, alarmed, by the fact that in the age of "Total Information Awareness" as implemented by criminals like Poindexter and the rest of that gang, this vulnerablility will be used by corporatist/fascist state on anyone they they choose to target. They would monitor everyone always if they could, and maybe they can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. I keep my cell phone in one of those hinged spectacles cases...
It's an older model, and not a clamshell. The 'ON' button gets accidently pushed by something in my purse, and the battery runs down so that the phone is dead when I go to use it. :grr:

The hard glass case is perfect...phone doesn't get turned on accidently, battery stays charged...and apparently it will make spying a lot more difficult.
:tinfoilhat:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. If you watch the video, you will discover that the on/off button is irrelevant, but you are wise
to keep keep that device blind and deaf when not needed. Unfortunately, most don't, and the tracking of your location through the towers it connects to will still be recorded. Maybe the TIA, or the successor, keeps all that data, or not. A very short Wikipedia article on that is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_phone_tracking and as several TV crime-of-the-day shows have shown, these records are stored and easily retrieved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Enjoy your new AT&T/NSA "iPhones"! (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's why I keep mine in my underwear.
Enjoy the view, gentlemen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GA_ArmyVet Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
49. Interesting counter but
remind me never to borrow your telephone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. ack! cell phones.
Once you have one it's hard to give it up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
qdemn7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-22-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. So now I guess....
I should only have the battery in my phone when I want to talk to someone. Seems like the only answer.

This is a software version of the old land line "infinity bug".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Just so, but no need to break into your house and put the bug into the phone.
It can now be done remotely, and the number of phones being tapped/turned is limited only by the self-restraint of the intruding agent. NSA can/does monitor every overseas call legally, looking for whatever, and then trades data with European agencies that do the same to get the data it might missa kid playing in a sandbox., and also does who knows what else outside of the laws/orders we know about. The computers at NSA make Orwell's 1984 look like a child playing in a sandbox. Be aware, and wary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Yeah, with the reception I get,
I wish 'em luck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. As an addedum, the reference to Symantec's interest in this vulnerability
http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/23/technology/snoopware_mobil/index.htm

(Added just to fix an omission, the "pp" in "protection" was another error, there may be more, but the essential message still stands.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Hah! Well, I hope they die of boredom watching me... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. as someone suggested on an earlier thread...
wrap your cell phone in metallic foil when you're not using it.

Someone could make a good living making and selling Faraday cage cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. There is NO EVIDENCE in that story... ZERO... it is worthless prattle to scare and bring ratings!
Look... <sigh> Okay, this is NOT POSSIBLE because If the phone is SHUT OFF it is SHUT OFF. (Think about it -- if the phone were actually on, or even in some crazy "low power" state, the battery would get drained because the radio would need to be on in order to receive any commands from a third party, and it would be drained at a much higher rate than if it were off.)

If the phone were powered on and had some virus installed, then it is possible of course. But the key is: something has to be installed FIRST. The phone cannot receive commands from the tower to "activate video camera" or "turn on microphone" without some form of ACTIVE THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE ON THE PHONE.

Some may say "well Windows has hacker attacks", but you're comparing a system that is VASTLY DIFFERENT from a mobile device and many thousands of times more complex and, not only that, but CONNECTED to a PUBLIC network that was designed for interconnection. Totally, 100% different from a mobile network.


"OH NOES I GOT A TEXT MESSAGE FROM A STRANGER!" does NOT mean the phone is hacked.

"OH NOES I GOT SOME PORN FROM A STRANGER!" does NOT mean the phone is hacked.

Who knows what kind of software that twit's daughter installed? How many of those "FREE RINGTONES CLICK HERE NOW!!" sites has she visited and jacked around with?

Get a damn grip here people! THIS STORY IS FEAR MONGERING and you are FALLING FOR IT.

HERE IS A TIP: If you are really concerned that your phone is spying on you, just keep it around your desk by your PC speakers. If anything goes on, you'll start to hear the fun little buzzing interference generated by the radio. (Of course, this only applies to GSM phones. If you are using a CDMA phone, you're SOL!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Nobody thought predator software was real
when it came out too ya know.

And honestly I think since the Bushista government has said it wants FULL SPECTRUM DOMINATION of the WORLD. So, I take these psychopaths at thier word when it's done in the name of control and domination of the people. Ever hear of"smart mobs" TheBush thugs if you THINK ;like them and stop thinking they are like YOU or me,and realize they operate in another reality, a suck one, they DO have a vested interest in spying on people through cell phones.And they have been selling us on the technology to do just that!

Howabout that new Iphone? 45 million predicted to be sold by 2009..45 million sets of eyes on the people's lives by 2009
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/06/07/45m.iphone.sales.by.2009/


First Cellphone worm.. (article was written in 2004..BTW)

The first virus to spread from one cell phone to another has been created, the Russian anti-virus software vendor Kaspersky Labs announced on Tuesday
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn5111

GSM phone encryption "can be cracked"(this one is from 2003)
The encryption system that protects the almost 900 million users of GSM cell phones from instant eavesdropping or fraud is no longer impregnable, cryptologists claim.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4130

(Can you say I (spy) phone?
Enjoy it while you can (this article is dated October 2003

Are the latest mobile phones too smart for their own good? Once the viruses get to work, intelligence could be their undoing, says Duncan Graham-Rowe

IT LOOKS like any other mobile phone. And you would probably be delighted to be given one. What you would not realise, however, is that it is not quite what it seems. Most of the time it operates exactly like any other handset. But just one call from a particular number and it can be switched on without your knowledge, with no outward sign that it is operating. Everything you say will be captured and sent across the network to the eavesdropper, yet you will have no idea that anyone is listening in.

http://www.educatedguesswork.org/movabletype/archives/2005/05/do_you_know_wha.html
More on cellphone spyware
http://www.spywareinfo.com/newsletter/archives/0104/6.email.txt

If you think this is"tin foil" you are in full on head in the sand denial,dude.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. There are no true viruses for cell phones. Period.
Trust me, mobile technology is my industry. There are a grand total of two or three "proof of concept" mobile viruses in existence, and none of them is actually at large "in the wild," in large part because the user has to approve their installation on the device. These things aren't subject to the kind of security loopholes that PCs are. You should crank down the paranoia a bit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. See post # 30 for a security expert's explanation of how this is done.
There you will see the relevant excerpt from this article - http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/mobile-wireless/personal-tech/in-depth/index.cfm?articleid=115

You are right that spyware needs to be installed first before the cell phone can be controlled remotely, but that is the way all malware works. But if you are suggesting that the user would be alerted by the virus or trojan that it is installing itself, well, no. Once on the device, that control makes the power on/off status irrelevant. You can pull the battery, of course, for temporary security, or just toss it, but those are not practical options.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. I stand by my original statements entirely.
1. The user needs to install something. People do stupid shit -- as evident by the fellow in the Oval Office.

2. Most modern cell phone OSes do prompt for permission to obtain network access, so in that instance the user would be notified. (See Symbian for example.)

3. The guy quoted in that article is a Symantec PR flack. Symantec profits from drumming up computer scares!

Don't misunderstand -- the threat is not non-existent. However, the likelihood that your phone will start spying on you out of nowhere without you installing software or activating any new third-party code is simply absurd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. Amen Reverend!
Some people get pretty paranoid when it comes to technology, thinking that anything is possible. The truth is, if you don't behave foolishly, and if you take even moderately reasonable precautions, you're really at no danger of anything. And with cell phones of any kind, you're basically safe even if you don't take precautions. Unfortunately, many people behave foolishly, either just futzing around with things they don't understand, or buying into stories like this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. Cameras everywhere
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 09:21 AM by undergroundpanther
We are in the empire Panapticon.

"Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electric stimulation of the brain." Dr. Jose Delgado

Cognitive liberty? Is this freedom next in line to be taken away?

Overcoming each others dirty laundry
It is an INESCAPABLE fact of life we are imperfect beings we don't conform neatly to cookie cutter molds of not supposed to. Everyone feels pain, everyone does stupid things in their life, everyone reacts too far, everyone has embarrassing awkward incidents or habits in their life they'd rather not everyone know.
http://web.pitas.com/page6/upits111802.html
http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/1858

An article I wrote years ago that applies..
The Paradox of Privacy

Why do we desire to have separate houses,separate rooms? Separate tables when we go to restaurants, separate cars?
This desire for a wall of separation between other people is a recent innovation.A thing created to manage people and discourage solidarity... Our culture's need for privacy is manufactured .A social control experiment gone awry.It is the result of a long trend of state sponsored social conditioning.
Private institutions and courts in the late nineteenth century and federal agencies in the twentieth took a particular form of family autonomy and privacy present only in a minority of the population and worked to spread it among the rest of the population - even if it meant violating families that violated the prim "norms" these agencies set as examples for society to conform to.
These agencies were unwilling to accept diversity in family or community life.

Early proponents of properness, privacy and domesticity turned to state power to create public and private coercion to induce family and community conformity.They intruded upon people's home life and privacy to enforce their own vision of what 'proper' home life and social divisions must be. And this intrusion into privacy, in the name of privacy, went beyond obvious examples like the enforced segregation of blacks and whites in the south. Families were torn apart literally if they were poor, different, or had children they were not properly submissive to authority, or prim enough in their manners. As more courts and officials institutionalized their 'ideal' of childhood and parental responsibility,the more inclined they were to literally institutionalize people and stigmatize functions that did not fit into their idealized nuclear family models.If a Family failed to create adequate personal privacy between each other,failed to achieve economic 'independence,and didn't obey 'proper' gender roles ,state institutions took over the household..



Children were sent to "reform schools" or foster care if their parents didn't look"normal"enough for the states extreme puritanical definitions of a "fit" mother.. Around the civil war era, these proponents of "privacy" and victorian mores, had two main goals of social policy. They were to "free the nuclear family from it's formal entanglements with kin and neighbors" (The Way we Never Were pp.128)and make diverse communities uniform. This was disrespectful to the humanity of the people it effected. This was a program to slowly undo the trusted kin and friendship connections of people to others in their own communities and to end communal childrearing. The subjugation of families to public authority did not stem from a collectivist or socialist agenda but from an attempt to build individualistic definitions of private responsibility. State Institutions fostered a form of personal responsibility that was geared to a competitive and structurally unequal economic order.Schools taught children that"helping your Friends is cheating"This had the effect of making people struggle harder to hold their own, and to glorify and mystify notions of independence. And it introduced more stress, isolation, exhaustion, and loneliness. This kind of manipulation served the business people and church crowd that ran the state back then very well.

This grand design for social separation was the brainchild of tweaking victorian churchmen and greedy insecure businessmen who found close-knit communities and solidarity of people who were less than wealthy or not too prim, who were socializing in urban tenements or the street, upsetting and threatening. To the upper crusties the people out on the street, particularly the poor and immigrants talking to each other, were too much for their paranoid constitutions to bear. They grew hysterical and referred to simple socializing of the wrong classes of people on the street as an addiction much like crack cocaine. The Victorian school marms and control freaks set about making laws to isolate people and turn them into symbols of social deviance. Even the commissioner of Labor Charles Neill declared in 1905: "There must be a separate house and as far as possible separate rooms, so that in an early period of life.....So the ideas of rights to property, the right to things, to privacy may be instilled." (The Way We Never Were pp.136)

Soon after that came the loitering laws, limits on where people could gather, limits on how many people could gather, and what they could or could not do together. Zoning laws and building codes arose to reinforce people's separation from kin and community.
Stores,churches and institutions gobbled up living space, suburban sprawl came to be a formidable force to exploit close habitation of different kinds of people by economic and distance segregation into individual living spaces that separated people from contact with each other and communal social spaces even further. Soon the demands of time, housekeeping, and hobbies began to segregate people's lives into compartments just like the suburban landscape and the commute to go anywhere reflected many lonely rooms in their homes... We turned into a nation of strangers communicating to each other via church or state created identities in the media. When the state butts in to separate us, divide us, to manipulate us with divisive labels, it creates more reaction and hostility between people.When the media, politicians, and community leaders use divisive labels and divisive issues to undermine solidarity and community cooperation, people seek identification and group loyalty to fill the empty hole left by the systematic erosion of our natural human solidarity and sense of relatedness to diversity that is part of every community. The identities offered in the social sphere, often tend to separate us from each other and ourselves all the more. And the intervention of the state to enforce religious legislation, or to pass overly restrictive or unnecessary laws, becomes a poor intrusive substitute for better solutions that truly can correct the damage done by previous state, church, or corporate intrusion into our privacy.

We all love the idea of the state butting out of our private lives...But when private life becomes a danger to life and limb to those living within those walls, we wish for state, family, or neighborly intervention. A tyrant in the home requires those whom he tyrannizes to maintain an illusion that the brutality that goes on in private isn't really happening. Families become enablers and secret keepers. Because of a household tyrant's need for suppression and for privacy to abuse people, privacy and securing it is of overblown importance to him. A privacy abuser's reactions to a symbol is similar to the symbolic over-reactions of gun owners to any regulations of guns. Privacy abused in this sort of situation enables privacy abuse by the state.

And domestic abuse is a dire problem in our country, when those who report child abuse are as follows: professionals (including teachers), law enforcement officers, social services workers, and physicians, make more than half (56%) of the screened-in reports. Others, including family members, neighbors, and other members of the community, made the remaining 44 percent of screened-in referrals regarding abuse.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm04/summary.htm

It's tragic when only 44% of our own kin and home communities dare to get involved in confronting domestic abuse, and prefer instead to let the state handle it. And 56% of those reports only happened because the state was stepping in where kin and neighbors failed to.. Where was the community concern and empathy,where were friends and neighbors?
Were they all inside their private homes,too oblivious to notice, in their own rooms ,sitting alone with the TV on or a video game going on to drown out the sounds of real violence with fake violence?

Which would you rather have? Some kin, neighbor, or friend we know or are acquainted with step in to chill out an abuser that's abusing a kid, and then alert the whole neighborhood to watch out for the kid's safety,ready to provide a place for the kids to go when the shit hits the fan as the cops are called? Or would you rather have some state regulated over-worked social worker with a huge caseload to tell him to stop hurting people,on the way to the police station before he's released on bail to keep on abusing people? .All.while no one else outside t admits they might know about it and when they do know they still refuse to help? Kids die this way folks, even at the hands of their own parents.This inspires a public outcry from the bothered for church and state to step in as parents.People die at the hands of normal looking, quiet, all-too-private sociopaths who nobody interfered with or even suspected was a problem individual. Assuming the best,ignoring the suspicions,keeping to themselves until the stench of dead bodies under the crawlspace is unbearable and the state is called to fix it.

I myself would trust myself and my neighbors to investigate violence they overhear in our neighborhood. This simple act of human concern for a fellow human being may save many lives in abusive homes because it ruins the secrecy games enablers enact to protect themselves from harm,and it destroys any delusions of lordship through privacy that a household tyrant craves so he can keep abusing people..
People are less likely to intervene in domestic violence nowadays because we do not socialize as freely with each other anymore in the streets and neighborhoods of America. And because we move from place to place chasing jobs, we never get to stay in a neighborhood long enough to put down roots and participate more in neighborhood or civic life. So if I don't know my neighbors, the state and it's impersonal intervention looks safer to me because it's regulated by others somewhat. Usually citizen elected "officials" or citizen created advocacy groups. Isn't this ironic? We want state intervention when other's privacy is abused, and we want that state power for intervention supervised by people who are citizens to keep it respectful of our privacy rights, but these are uninvolved people who have no clue who we are, personally.We hate having our own privacy violated yet we are eager to invade others' privacy through the apparatus of the state to make sure there isn't any consensual homosexual sex or gay adoptions going on.

The State has taken the place of familiar human community supports. The impersonal way the state controls social interactions and puts an end to solidarity in community. TV, computers, video games are usurping our free time, the media's constant harping on tragedies and crimes of the unknown person in the neighborhood, has helped this social isolation process along psychologically. The loitering laws, chronic suburban sprawl, the the necessity of cars to go anywhere,air conditioning, and other various actions and inventions of business, and the passivity or unawareness of unions also contributes to this malaise.

Look, if neighbors all across this country knew each other and didn't fear neighborly diversity because it knew the diverse people personally, it might make people less stuck on believing bigoted rhetoric, less gullible to manipulation, and less prone to get reactionary over other people's ways of life. We would not need the state to intervene to tell us to get along if we didn't forget how to relate and get along together When it's someone you know well and respect, in trouble it feels different because there is a relation there.The impersonal state and other institutions of this society have no authority to lord their self serving social models and agendas over you, when they appeal to things like empathy, ethics, and other values that are inherent in living beings. When the state does this type of appeal to the better parts of humanity, it is coercive, intrusive, or impersonal. When the state appeals to empathy or the needs for ethical behavior from someone, it calls in another intrusive profession or social institution, like psychiatry or the church to tell you how.

In isolation we feel more vulnerable to symbols and we feel more powerless when we think we have no allies that understand us socially..So when the state gets ugly or a company screws us to the wall we are more likely submit to it because we fear abandonment, homelessness.
Homelessness is a life without privacy or things. It goes directly against our social conditioning. Homeless people have networks of people who know them and they do support one another. But because it involves poverty people fear the homeless more than they ought to and the state and businessmen makes them into a scary symbol... something one best keep out of one's community. Because humans loathe the unknown, and unknown people, and are wary of differences they don't understand, and we love our privacy to the extremes even more than we care about each other, we can remain uninvolved in neighborhood and community relationships on a personal level. When privacy is abused and we can't ignore it or shut it out, we have no choice but to ask the state to fix it when nothing else can fulfill that role. The state won't fix it really, because it has it's own agendas, which dovetail nicely with our very scripted planned reactions, that are fueled by certain unquestioned beliefs about people, our fear, ignorance, isolation, and imagination, and those worse case scenarios dancing in our heads along with the TV news.

We behave today, to some extent, as we were planned to behave by state lawmakers in the nineteen hundreds. We often act like the wealthy hysterical victorian legislators and churchmen living in the late nineteen hundreds, as we fret over "those undesirable strangers entering our antiseptic segregated suburban "paradise." We gossip so arrogantly and ignorantly about those "other people," those "criminals on the street corners," those "rowdy youth", those "bums". We admonish people that are not like us, whom we don't relate to. Because we have overvalued our own privacy, we think we don't have to learn how to get along with others. We can go on endlessly about "those other people" doing nasty unchristian things in private, or doing things we wouldn't ourselves do in public as we do the same damn thing in the sanctity of OUR home..

This kind of blazing bullshit hypocrisy is only possible where people refuse relate to one another beyond their familiar cliques on human terms and instead choose to abbreviate real people into symbols and have nightmares about "them." It's much easier to dehumanize someone you never talked to. How vivid the human imagination becomes when it is isolated from human to human community relationships. How malleable and controllable we all get when we are atomized into our separate houses, separate rooms, separate cars, in a town full of strangers shut up in their own domiciles lording over it, possessing all these things.. but are secretly suffering for want of a true friend and somewhere to go on a Saturday night besides getting drunk out of your skull. A community relationship is the only way to dull the loneliness and boredom of your life.You cannot have your privacy cake and eat your neighbor's privacy in this human situation.

But we have become so timid, over-polite, passive, and socially awkward. We can't just walk up to a guy on the street and ask him to coffee; we are all too busy, too awkward. We assume they don't want to be bothered with friendship, and so our social conditioning is never challenged. How convenient to those who fear community and solidarity. How tyrannical we become when we think we are powerless, because we are by all observable evidence alone... abandoned by everyone, to fend for ourselves alone against the whims of a dog-eat-dog world. How vulnerable we feel when we have painful pasts where no one heard us or stepped in to help. Fearful privacy and misuse of personal power becomes a refuge from fear of the"other," and a refuge from corporate/state control and time management. Privacy, while it feels safe, is also a haven for creating even more fear and reaction of the "other" who is dehumanized into a symbol, and invites more state intervention and control. We need community relationships to temper our tendency to react or to be tempted by extremism. Absolute privacy and state intervention as a substitute for a neighborhood... it is a tragic and profitable paradox of symbols in this modern civilized life..


" Day after day,They send my friends away
To mansions cold and gray,
To the far side of town,
Where thin men stalk the streets ,
While the sane stay underground.....

... "Cause I'd rather stay here with all the madmen,
Than perish with the sad men roaming free,
And I'd rather play here With all the madmen,
For I'm quite content they're all as sane as me".

~David Bowie : excerpted from "All the Madmen", on the album "The Man who Sold the World"~

Reality is nothing but the free choice of one of many doors that are open at all times..Herman Hesse,Steppenwolf.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
20. Just pull your sim card out when you're not using it. - n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. what is a sim card?
And how would I recognize it? If I opened up my phone?
The most I have done is install a battery.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. It's the computer chip-looking thing, not bigger than a stamp, that's usually under the battery.
It holds the information, primarily your phone number, on it, and it's what identifies your phone as uniquely yours. Check your manual for its exact location in your particular model. Anyway, I've never tried it, but I don't think cell phones work at all without the card in. They certainly won't be able to tell who you are anyway if they do.

Chances are that only the highest tech organizations (military, CIA, etc.) would be able to, or would bother to, spy on you through your cell phone anyway. So, unless you're calling bin Laden regularly, you probably don't have anything to worry about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
22. And with all this surveillance, hacking, whatever, no film/video/IM's/
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 09:33 AM by WinkyDink
nada of the 19 hijackers and/or planes has ever been shown to the public except for the TV WTC footage and the Logan airport bit of Atta and one other alleged hijacker. No plane caught on Pentagon cameras, no boarding in NYC (or other airport video), no "Black" box data.

It is We, the People, who are meant to be spied upon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. It doesn't matter if this is true (which I doubt)
As long as they make us feel like we are being watched, that's all they need to keep us shackled.

When it comes to privacy I think the real issue is who is going to take the time to spy on everyone? Even if there was a camera in every room I doubt anyone would want to waste their time watching me pick my arse all the time.

What the corporate owners want is for us to feel insecure in private, so that we work all the time and make money for them. It's that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. I call BS on the news story.
Something's not right here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Try reading this if you think it is impossible
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6140191.html

The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations:
remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

The technique is called a "roving bug," and was approved by top U.S. Department of Justice officials
for use against members of a New York organized crime family who were wary of conventional surveillance
techniques such as tailing a suspect or wiretapping him.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. What mentally crippled shithead wrote this crap? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You obviously didn't go to the link or you would know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
28. Let the techies debate the finer points, I'll accept it as true-and there is no debate when it comes
to the fact that most cell phones have GPS tracking.

Moreover, those of us that have been paying attention to RFID systems applications and developments understand that just about everything can be tracked, hacked etc.

What is unacceptable is the use of this for political/criminal purposes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
30. For all those claiming this kind of spyware is impossible or BS or whatever, here's a techy source.
If you so-called "skeptics" wanted to do some simple fact checking, you will find a lot of recent discussions of how these trojans are spread and used. Here's one:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/mobile-wireless/personal-tech/in-depth/index.cfm?articleid=115


"For every one mobile virus, there's 600 on the PC. But mobiles out-ship PCs five to one, and while they are like PCs in many ways, they also face new threats."

He says the first financially-targeted mobile phone viruses used premium SMS messages to empty the user's account, and warns that with mobile phones increasingly being used as payment vehicles, financial attacks will grow.

...

However, Miller argues that a bigger risk could be the emergence of snoopware. The first spyware of this kind, called Flexispy, appeared earlier this year and is marketed as a way to track your children and keep tabs on your spouse.

"What I tell people is that snoopware puts a stranger in your bedroom and a competitor in your boardroom," he says. "The phone's always with you, it's always a threat - 70 percent of people use their mobile phone as an alarm clock."

What's innovative about snoopware is that it attacks the specific features of phones. It can secretly listen in on conversations, or use the phone's camera to take photos or video, say. It could also access other data on a smartphone and make use of that too, according to Miller.

"My phone has my calendar and contacts on it, and the microphone is just another application, so snoopware can consult my calendar for a great meeting and listen in," he says. "Mobile spyware is much more an invasion of privacy than logging keystrokes and URLs ever was."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. Not true. Misinformation spread by people who want you to buy their software.
They fail to mention that the only way to get this software onto a phone is to manually install it, since you cannot receive or automatically get a virus on a phone the way you can on a PC.

They fail to cite any actual threats other than one program for one small class of devices, because there aren't any others. No other software like this exists, in part because it's hard to develop, and in part because these devices are already immune to almost any form of attack.

And this is something that they do mention, but bears repeating, since nobody seems to be listening. They're only talking about smartphones, i.e. Windows Mobile and Symbian, not the sort of cell phones that most people buy.

So no, this is scare material, designed to sell security software to big corporations.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. I don't doubt that Security busineses are motivated by greed, and
that corporations always use deceit to get more suckers to buy their stuff. That's the nature of capitalism. It does not follow from that fact that the reports of trojans (which normally get installed when the user believes some other action is taking place, like reading an email) are all bogus.

For more examples, just type "smartphone trojans" into any search engine, and write nasty notes to the editors of the various tech sites informing them that there is really no problem. And watch the two news report videos, and inform the TV station they are being hoaxed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. No, but the fact that none of these things are known to exist in the wild does mean something.
Something that you don't immediately see in most of those articles is that their source is almost always the companies selling antivirus software. I'm not saying they're making up the existence of these programs, but they're certainly overexaggerating the threat by a vast amount. I have never, and I mean never, seen an instance of one of these "trojans" actually in the wild. Besides which, smartphones are still only a small percentage of the total cell phones sold, particularly here in the US, and email or not, you can't just randomly hijack an ordinary cell phone without the user's cooperation.

Look, mobile tech is my industry, and I can honestly say this--there's no way to automatically get a virus from reading an email, because mobile email clients don't support the same things as desktops. And ordinary mobile phones support even less. Trust me--I'm not trying to sell anything, and my ratings don't depend on scaring you to death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. *flaunts his ancient-assed, cameraless cell phone at you all* (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CGowen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. even FOX News told this in 06
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 01:44 PM by CGowen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'm don't think I buy this.
There have been claims like this running around for quite awhile, but to my knowledge, no one has ever successfully demonstrated the capability to do such a thing with a cell phone that hasn't been specially prepared by them.

Also, that article gets a couple of facts grossly wrong: there is no such thing called the "The Cell Phone Hacker’s Bible," period. Also, "phone phreaks" are not a group, it's a kind of discipline, like computer hackers, but one that has been nearly extinct for a decade or more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Try this link
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. None of that is what's being talked about.
"snarfing,"

This is a slang term for downloading things.

"esn changing,"

This is for making your phone look like a different one to a CDMA carrier like Verizon or Sprint. It's impossible with most phones made after 2004.

"restricted access,"

I.e. locking other people out of your phone.

"phreaking with your cellular phone, trunking systems,"

Neither of these will actually do anything.

"permanent banners,"

Customizing the graphics on your phone.

"unlocking codes,"

This is for using a cell phone on different networks than it was intended to.

"connecting cell phones to modems,"

I think they mean connecting phones AS modems, because the other thing makes no logical sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. My bad. you claimed the cell phone hackers bible didn't exist. this site
sells it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. It's a different thing.
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 07:58 PM by TheWraith
Nothing exists under the title that they listed in the article. If you look around, though, you'll find plenty of information on cell phones, hacking your cell phone, and probably several different documents described or named as bibles. But the main point being that what they described in the article doesn't as all correspond with reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Well I found it.
richard
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Okay, I'm going to put you on ignore now
Reason: you're just being stubbornly, intentionally obtuse now.

"no such thing as Cellphone Hacker's Bible"

<link to site selling Cellphone Hacker's Bible>

"Oh, that's not the same thing"

Not worth reading at all. Bye.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
48. Mines only getting pictures of the inside of my purse then
but that's still pretty scary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC