How common is catcalling?

Diary of a Catcall Hater

By Kimberly Klinger
Posted: June 21, 2007

I get harassed on an almost-daily basis. It’s crazy, unbelievable, utter crap to think that a good chunk of my time out in the world is spent dodging unwanted comments. But it’s true. To prove it, I’ve kept a log. What follows is just some of the harassment I’ve encountered within the last 6 or so months. It’s not at all comprehensive. And I’m only one woman—if all the women in this city wrote their own diaries of harassment, we’d run out of paper to print them.

Of course, I did have peaceful stretches of days where nobody bothered me, usually in winter when people are quicker to get off the streets and when we women are covering up our shameful bodies. Not that doing that really stops anyone—there are still quite a few instances of harassment in cold months. Read on and feel the love:

Nov. 7, 2006

While walking the block from home to my car, I was harassed not once, not twice, but three times. It’s dark, raining, and cold, and I’m wearing jeans, a sweater, a hat and under an umbrella. The first time is the worst. They are uncharacteristically gross; I think one guy says he has “a big one for (me).” The rest are your basic “Hey, sexy, hey, baby.”

Nov. 15, 2006

Walking to car, just a quick block. Wearing jeans, sneaks, shirt with some cleavage, sweater. Guy lunges at me. “Good morning, how are you <unintelligible comments about me and my looks>, do you need a ride?” I stop and turn around, stare directly at him and after a beat, sarcastically say, “Yeah, let me get in your car with you right now. That’s a good idea.” He says something else, which I couldn’t understand, but he also looks confused and pretty much backs off…

Also, is about my dad’s age. Gross....


http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/display.php?id=1855


The diary goes on to take note of seven months of experiences like these in which strangers leer and drool, make passes and toss off lewd comments. Being male, this is not in the realm of my experience--neither as a receiver or a perp. Though I have witnessed catcalling of women on the street, it's not all that common in my neighborhood.

So how common is it among women at DU? And among the men of DU, have you been catcalled? Is anyone willing to admit to being a perpetrator? How do you deal with it?

(haha), but it used to happen a lot when I was a young hippie chick, and it was very, very annoying.

or ''fucking old bitch'

but before I used to do it several times a day

:spank:

that was my initial reaction, too Wiley50!
I have too many felines underfoot. Of course, if I really want to call them, all I have to do is open a can!

I've never once been catcalled. Ever - and I have been told many times that nature has been kind to me. All I can figure is that the woman in the article either needs to carry herself differently to head off these "attacks" or else she should move somewhere where there isn't an overabundance of idiots.

It worked pretty well.

Rosemary, have you ever been to Mexico? :evilgrin:

I went to France on business once when I was 20. I got a few leers, but no catcalls.

But yeah, I've heard Mexican culture is a little less -- how can I say this -- a little less reserved --- LOL :)

It feels different than being catcalled here, more friendly or something. :hi:

Here if some man jumped up in my face, leering at my cleavage and asked me to get into his car I'd probably call the cops! I wouldn't even call that a catcall - I'd call that terrifying.


As a woman, I like to be "noticed". A little harmless flirtation, a wink or a smile now and again. Now that I'm in the wheelchair it happens less often. Fortunately I've never had someone call me "bitch" from a car, or block my path or such. That's just pure idiocy IMHO. Even working Downtown Atlanta for years right out of high school and taking public transportation. Oh sure I had guys introduce themselves all the time, but never anything as rude as what seems to happen to that woman multiple times a day.

I dressed sometimes and I never could verbalize to her that I was just trying to avoid being a "target". She was a single mom and worked 7 days a week and we just didn't have that conversation until after *I* was a mom. :)

I lived in Q-Roo for about eighteen months and there was a pretty big discrepancy in how I was supposed to treat (? is that the right word?) women there as opposed to here in the states.

It seemed to me that comments such as "Oh wow! You look GREAT!" was something I could say to a female I didn't know and she took it as a compliment (as it was intended). In the States, it's just one of those things I've learned to keep to myself in case (more often than not) I get that look (you know, the look that says, "Why are you looking at me, let alone talking to me.? What a creep!").

And I really thought that was great. I took some time to culturally re-adjust myself to that, but all in all, it *felt* nice to able to hand a compliment to a complete stranger and have it taken as that-- a compliment.


BUT... I also learned that there are no *flippant* compliments. If I say it, I must mean it. And that did cause a few awkward moments for me... :blush:

To be honest, I'd love to give out compliments like that here, but I also don't want mace sprayed at me so I keep my mouth shut. It's really sad and frustrating to me that we live in a culture in which women are almost forced to look at every male stranger as a potential violent thug.

I like to think that as advanced as we are in the U.S., we're actually a cultural backwater...

to the Mexican 'Riviera'--I am 66 fricken years old and I got them - men rubbing my arms, making comments to me---one told me he'd give me $200 if I went back to his house with him and his wife!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

now- whatever that all means- it certainly is NOT reserved, but HUGH, SERIESLY!11!!1 !

:silly:

That includes Hispanics in California. Try being an attractive young woman in the Mission district of San Francisco. Just try to walk down the street from point A to point B. One develops an acute ability to tune out everyone who is trying to get your attention with their gross smacking noises and comments. Sunglasses are indispensable.

I don't know why they kept at it. I always completely ignored them. It's plain old harrassment, in my opinion.

Yeah, I remember. :eyes:

I lived on 20th & Folsom for a few years, then for a few years on 20th, between Capp & South Van Ness.

"Capp Street hookers" was a phrase known to everyone, including, suburban older men. So, there were a few occasions where I was wearing baggy jeans and a sweatshirt, walking my dog in the evening, when an SUV or a car would pull up and the male driver would wave at me, hopefully.
I got so tired of that. Sometimes, I gave a dirty look, or, "the finger", but mostly, I tried to block it out. How much IGNORING can a person do, and still stay happy? It gets to the point where, you want everyone around you to just go away! I blocked eveything out, to the point that friends would later say "why didn't you say hi to me?" The reason was that I blocked them out so I could ignore the harrassers.

Today, I would never go back to that annoying lifestyle.

I got harrassed by Hispanic men. I got harrassed by hopeful johns. EVERY F****** DAY I left the house!

Sometimes I would be carrying a stack of books. That didn't mean anything to those perverts.

Edited to say: every time I was carrying a stack of books, and also every time I wasn't, as long as I was walking down 20th street, I got accosted.

Apparently the body language there is that if you look up you're fair game. When I realized what was going on I just looked up and insulted them when they were too obnoxious. I may have been a visitor in their country, but they were in a tourist area and should not have behaved like such jackasses.

Before my mid thirties I got a lot of leering--not now--I probably remind them of their mother.

So, you're doing something wrong?
No, from my understanding they're leering at you because YOU'RE A WOMAN.

I love to go to Mexico but I do have a tale to tell. It is the ONLY place I have ever been walking down the street and had a man just up and grab my boobs...one in each hand. I, who normally am not shy about getting in someone's face, was so stunned, he was half way down the block before I ever responded and I just kind of stuttered something.

I have gotten catcalls walking by construction sites and stuff. I thought being older would help but I was walking home from the store the other day and some guy stopped his car and said..."I could give you a ride..."...and he said it in a leering kind of scary way...<g> I just said, "No, thank-you" and kept on walking...<g> Age has cut down on it a lot though.

It always surprises me because I assume I am just one of those women who have "LESBIAN" written all over them but since I don't have a Dyke haircut and I'm not an LL Bean Dyke...I am more Hippie Lesbian, (not Lipstick Lesbian either just more jeans and tees)...I guess I don't just have "LESBIAN" written all over me. Or I do and they consider that a challenge...

Lee

Maybe we should go back to traveling in packs. :scared:

Oddly, the Mexico thing didn't freak me out. I was with a friend; it was the middle of the day and on a busy street. ...and the guys just kept on going like it was normal behavior...<g> It just stunned me...the audacity and all. I'm rarely afraid. I am more afraid for my girlfriend as she is more vulnerable because she has arthritis.
Lee

And I'd have been in a Mexican jail.

Seriously though everyone on this thread is WAY TOO NICE to these animals. Why the hell are we expected to put up with it? What if everyone told these animals in no uncertain terms to go to hell? Would that do any good?

When I hear this shit from someone, I give them the bird. But I am a seriously angry person tired of being "nice".

(public sexual groping from a random weirdo)

Some weird guy who was dressed like a rabbi (We're pretty sure he wasn't a real rabbi) just went up to her and grabbed her boobs as we walked down a NY street.

Frottage: sexually groping strangers in public places.

I got frottaged in the SF Muni to 49th & Taraval one extremely crowded evening. The train was very packed. I looked down to see if it was perhaps someone's briefcase that was jutting into my crotch. Nope. It was a middle aged man's hand!

He had NO reaction on his face when I looked at him. I didn't say anything, but I should have.

I would have gotten over the shock, grabbed that ahole's hand and twisted it until he screamed for mercy. :mad:

it's ridiculous!

Is it big enough that you spend a lot of time walking by people you don't know, or who don't know your family?

good call :hi:

You think anyplace in Metro Atlanta is "small town"??? Sheesh?

Not that it even matters.

Anywhere in or near Atlanta is huge. The actual town sizes are irrelevant.

You mean out of DC. :think:

I do believe the OP asked for our experiences............. ??????????????????????????

...I don't understand your comment at all. How should she be "carrying herself" exactly? I was taught to stand up straight and hold my head up. Should she be skulking along the street?

I walk as though I'm happy with who I am. And yes, I have my share of unwanted male attention. But that is neither my fault nor my problem.

Are men such beasts that they can't help themselves, that the sight of an attractive, confident woman causes them to lose control and abandon all pretext of polite behavior? That's a load of crap.

I should be able to walk down the street in perfect safety and peace. I wouldn't dream of heckling a man--no matter how he "carried himself." It's an invasion of privacy.

but in my younger days, many girls would harrass me. Not in a positive way either. Would it be fair for me to write: "Are women such beasts that the sight of a skinny geek causes them to lose control and abandon all pretext of polite behaviour?" Clearly, some are, and some are not.

Someone that gets catcalls now and again can certainly blame it on idiot men -- and I DID include that option in my post. This could be a case of unfortunately living in an area with an overabundance of idiots. And as I said upthread - some of what she is talking about is clearly way beyond a catcall and into the attack territory.

This woman says it happens to her multiple times a day - every day - everywhere she goes. I understand all about "shoulds" -- I "SHOULD" be able to take my wheelchair into any building I choose with as equal ease as a walking person. I "SHOULD" be judged applying for jobs based on my past experience and abilites not on the wheelchair. I am forced to compensate for other people's problems in order to get what I need.

This woman is clearly quite a stunning beauty. She said she likes to dress in a revealing manner -- and the article makes in clear she lives somewhere where her safety is an issue. The woman certainly SHOULD be able to go everywhere she wants in 3 triangles and a string without being molested. But that isn't the world she lives in.

I don't know if "a little cleavage" means she's dressing attractively but conservatively or if she's dressing like Brittney Spears on stage -- yes, she SHOULD be able to do whatever she wants and be left in peace -- but like I said, this is not the world she lives in -- and IF she's pushing the envelope enough to give men around her the idea that she's available for "car dates" then she might want to think about toning it down just a little.

it's skirting the "blame the victim" line.

I doubt she's a stunning beauty. I know I'm not, and I still receive unwelcome attention, no matter how I'm dressed. I just don't think that's the issue.

The problem here is the sense of entitlement that some people feel--entitled to view and treat others solely as objects for their delectation. In our culture, that's usually men and women, but it need not be.

I get harassed on a daily basis too, and I practically wear a goddamn burkha every time I go out, just to try to fend some of it off.

There is NOTHING about me that indicates I'm available, interested, or seeking attention, but the fact that I'm female is all the provocation these sickos need.

What you wear, and how you look makes little difference, unfortunately.

You mentioned down thread that men will completely ignore a more beautiful woman showing an acre of cleavage but will harass you. Appearantly this happens a lot??? Do you have any idea why these previously sane respectful men decide to harass you? I'd really like to understand. I should think if they leave these other women alone it's not ONLY that they are beasts who can't control themselves. I'd honestly like to understand that.

Edit to add that I apologize if my question is worded ackwardly. I really am not making any sort of sideways accusation. I just think you might be able to shed some light. :)

BTW - I also saw downthread you mention that no attention from strangers is OK for you. That I understand. Some people just feel safer with people they already know, or that someone they know introduces and I totally get that.

My best friend's husband was a complete and total stranger when they met at the grocery store. 21 years and 5 kids later they are still like newlyweds! :)

they're more beautiful, per se. :rofl:

No, seriously...I meant they were showing more skin, and flaunting it more, but I definitely don't think that equates to "more beautiful." They're just showing more.

I also doubt that the harassers were ever sane, or respectful. Those men probably aren't out harassing women and girls. I'm talking about uncouth men that do this sort of thing regularly.

I think what it is about me that might make me a target for this sort of man is that I'm very petite, and though I'm an adult woman, I look a lot younger than I am. I imagine that a predatory type man might make the mistake of thinking I'm defenseless or weak because of my size, and that they can get away with it. I've been told I have pretty hair too, so maybe that's part of it, but I usually try to put it in a bun or ponytail when I'm out alone.

I have been told by male friends that the "covered up, modest looking woman" can be way more attractive, because she's natural and not "trying too hard." They see this as a challenge, and want to give chase. Knowing that, I still don't have the courage or the desire to "flaunt it" in order to "scare them off." :-) I dunno. The psychology behind the whole phenomenon of sexual harassment is just really complex and bizarre. If I think to much about it, I start to lose my sanity. :crazy:

I realize that two strangers can randomly meet and fall in love and make a go of it, like your two friends. Unfortunately, the few times I have been polite to a "friendly" stranger, they have tried to turn the interaction into something more than I'm comfortable with, and have tried to parlay my politeness into a pick-up. I'm afraid I just don't trust strangers anymore.

Edited to respond to something you brought up in another post: I can honestly say that there is nothing about me that would make men think I'm willing or available. You mentioned that the woman in the article might have given that impression to the men who are propositioning her for "car dates." I cannot comment on her situation, but I definitely dress modestly, wear my big ol' wedding ring, do not make eye contact, and walk briskly on my way without engaging any of the men I pass. If I am out in a public area, harassment can indeed happen several times a day without provocation. I believe just being female, walking alone (though it does happen when I'm not alone, or even with my husband) and possibly being petite and small framed might be enough to make people want to harass me. I guess they do it because they feel they can? :shrug:

I had a very interesting experience once watching my 17 yr old neice and her best friend at Daytona beach a few years ago. It was one of those big family things where all the siblings and their families gathered at the same hotel for vacation.

My niece is quite attractive and loved the shorts so short her butt cheeks poked out the bottoms and the braless tank tops. But this girl never in her life managed to come across as "slutty" like that. I know it sounds odd. Oh she got a few "appreciative" looks and catcalls and whistles but mostly men kept their distance. They certainly weren't inviting to a car date like what is detailed in the original post. She didn't much enjoy the attention at all though. The niece's mother (my sister in law) basically said she could be wearing a trenchcoat and every once in a while the neice will get a whistle.

The best friend, Kyra, was much more conservatively dressed but she just had this air of availability about her. You know I honestly cannot put my finger on exactly what it was. But every adult in my family could "see" it. Even grandma commented. We could hardly go anywhere, where the men weren't trying to corner her someplace. Seemed like every other man though she was there for the taking and IMHO the girl sent a lot of mixed signals when it happened. More than once my brothers (both 6'5"ish 240# and not an ounce of fat on them) had to step in and break things up. I have to say, reading the OP just made me think of this girl and others like her I've known over my nearly 50 years.

Anyways, for what it's worth, I really feel for you. It does sound like you have it a little better than the poor woman in the OP -- getting invited to have "car dates" multiple times a day. -- I know downthread someone commented that they knew the part of town the woman in the OP was discussing and said it's an awful part of town concerning the safety of women. Hopefully where you live is not quite that bad! :)

For your civil reply. I edited my original post, I'm not sure if you saw the second part.

I definitely feel for those girls you described. I am not sure WHAT it is that leads some men to think that certain girls "deserve" their unwanted attention. We can all pretty much agree that it doesn't much matter what you wear - it just happens.

It's hard to say what it was that led men to harass Kyra. I'd have to meet her myself to see what you're talking about I guess. Maybe she had a really pretty face, or a "clueless" air about her that made her seem a bit vapid and defenseless. Maybe she very willingly talked to strangers without even realizing it was making them think she was interested. I have known very average looking girls (or sometimes, downright plain) who seem a little naive, and maybe a little cluelessly friendly, and they have been MAGNETS for weirdos. They aren't deliberately trying to provoke, but they seem like they might be easily manipulated.

I have definitely never been accused of looking slutty, or being dumb, naive, or vapid, but some people have said that I'm "cute" (eg, I'm small and I look young) and that I have large eyes and round cheeks, and maybe my face looks "approachable" or "friendly" or "open". I have no idea what it is, but I have literally been inclined to wonder if I was a lewd, lecherous man in a past life, and I am now getting back what I once subjected others to. :-)

I guess the reason this topic hits so hard with me, is because the first time I ever received this kind of attention, I was TEN. I went to go play at a friend's house where I always hung out - it was a safe, nice place in a good neighborhood. On this particular day, I strolled up her front walk as I had done 1,000 times before, and noticed that there was a crew of men (about 4 of them) replacing the siding on her house. I was wearing my favorite over-sized Red Sox T-shirt, long pants, and sneakers. I was about 4'5" and 60 pounds. I was obviously a child. I glanced over at the work crew, curious as to what they were doing, and saw that they were all leering at me. Confused, and uncomfortable, I turned away and kept walking, and much to my horror, one of the men loudly said "Hey, you want to give me a blow job?" The rest all laughed and nodded.

I turned around, said "Fuck off, you pig" and ran home and told my parents. My dad went and had a little talk with her dad about the caliber of men who were working on their house.

They were not on the job the next morning, and were never seen in the neighborhood again. Despite my bold response, I was really shaken. I cried to my mom who assured me they were jerks and it wasn't my fault. I felt filthy, humiliated, and the innocence of childhood was gone. That was the day I became aware that the world is INDEED an ugly place, and females have to live in fear at all times, no matter what we do.

While that was one of the vilest come-ons I have ever gotten, the more generic, less obscene ones are just as upsetting. Most people are horrified to learn that a ten-year-old child was spoken to that way, but once I reached adulthood, or even puberty, the attitude switched for some from "What sicko would say that to a kid?!" to "What did you do/say/wear/look like/ to deserve it?"

I feel victims of ANY age deserve equal sympathy and understanding. At no age have I ever wished for or solicited that sort of attention.

It's as great a mystery to me as it is to you what makes some men act this way. But I do believe the fault lies with the perp, and not the woman, or in my case, the ten-year-old kid.

are in a wheelchair, then why don't you say so?
It's very unfair that people with disabilities feel that they can just go on, without reciprocation.

"Are men such beasts that they can't help themselves,"

I wish you would edit it to read:
Are some men such beasts...

The answer to the edited version is "YES", some men are such beasts. Some are not.
I don't see that situation changing any time in the next few centuries.
Education and Socilaization seems to help, but by no means cures the situation.
Some of the most educated men I know still seem to want to tear down intelligent, confident women like they (the male) are threatened or something, but they have learned to do it on a stealthier (more intense and crueler) level.

Bvar22

cousins, grand-mothers, next door neighbours, all want to know where that may be.

But not really.

So it's all her fault, is what you're really saying, aren't you?
If she's pretty then she deserves harrassment. The idea is, that because prettier women get more attention than you do, they deserve a little harrassment, too?

and apparently is afraid to pin the blame on these men, because men ain;t exactlly knocking down her door in th first place, and so she'll spread the "man hater" meme, and maybe that'll help her score points with the guys. Pathetic.

why can't women be themselves? why must we carry ourselves a certain way or get harassed by men?

that's a male rule to be broken.

a woman SHOULD be able to go all over town in nothing but 3 triangles and string, stand around on street corners at midnight and be safe - but she's probably going to get some catcalls. It's not HER fault, but this is the reality of the world we live in.

This woman says men routinely mistake her for someone looking for "car dates" - multiple times a day. I'm sorry, but when I read that, I have to ask myself why so many men, multiple times a day, think she's easy and available. We aren't talking the occasional idiot who gets out of hand here.

I understand I'm in the minority here. I do think women have the ability to send signals to men about their easiness and availability. I think most men read those signals pretty well but there are idiots who can't get it straight. But there is also the rare woman who ENJOYS sending out mixed signals and LIKES to bitch and whine when men "constantly" hit on her.

No I'm NOT saying ALL women who get unwanted attention deserve it or even ask for it. I'm saying once in a while "A" woman will go out of her way to ask for it and then complain about it.

IMHO both sides have a responsibility here, not just the men.

her responsibilty here? Maybe she should move from her home, yeah- that's also a reasonable burden to put on the victim.
Verbal abuse is nothing to envy, Too bad you can't seem to grasp that and stop trying to punish the wrong people.

If it helps you to think all women are the pitiful victims of those awful beasty men then more power to you. I have simply not seen that to be entirely true.

need to put other women down just because you can't relate to NEGATIVE attention.
sucks to be you, huh? well, every single thing you said is the same crap people spew to blame rape victims.
slippery slope you're on there.
how'd you get to have such a bitter and enabling outlook? me-ow to you.

I attempted to respond to your first personal attack with some modicum of civility. But this is really uncalled for.


Oh, sorry, nevermind -- a quick post search explains it all. :eyes:

look bad, it makes you look bad.
and you responded as with broad brush totally fabricated nonsense. I assumed it would be okay to point that fallacy out and reiterate the obvious reason you don;t get it. And that's that you don;t get it, in your own words, you state you never got the attention. As you say, "Cry me a river".
Just kinda connecting the dots as you laid em out.

If you want a pissing match why not go back to that other thread?

Ugly as it is, you said it. It's all yours, and there ain;t nothing new about it. Always the ones who have no experience with a matter, sitting in judgement, wagging their little fingers. It's a cliche.
:shrug:

it doesn't matter how she "carrys herself" .

AND made me feel guilty as if it was my fault and a bad thing. (Thanks, Sister Mary Louise!)

I found it difficult - stressful - to go out by myself, and like a prisoner in my apartment at night. I had to psyche myself up to leave the apartment even during the day. It was seriously, seriously horrible -- felt threatening, insulting, and downright hostile. It felt to me like I was being punished somehow for being a woman alone.

HORRIBLE.

in a mean looking collar. That worked, too.

It was Hawaii in the late 70's and my short shorts and cut-off tee-shirt was apparently too much for gay men who would stop their car at the curb and ask if I wanted a ride. I always politely turned them down and hoped that the next car would be driven by a woman.

It drove me crazy; I didn't hate/dislike gay men, but I wanted to attract the opposite sex! I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong.

I can only imagine what it would be like to have to endure unwanted comments every single day just strolling down the sidewalk.

Men can be pigs.

I don't agree with the catcalling, but that she mentioned this furthers my theory that older male sexuality is more despised in our culture than gay sexuality.

That's my point. Older men are not supposed to be sexual creatures.

I can see them as sexual creatures now that I'm older -- not when they were my father's age... That's the difference.

Similarly, I'd imagine many young men think of sex with old women as "gross," as well.

As long as we're on the subject of telling people how they should feel about things.

Just as you wouldn't tell this young woman how to feel about men her father's age ogling or catcalling at her.

I'm just explaining that, in my experience, a young woman may find the notion of sex with an old man "gross" while a woman closer to their age doesn't. It doesn't have to imply a wider insecurity about old men's sexuality.

Though I suppose before that movie they were called "Mrs. Robinsons"

Anyways, I read that article in the Citypaper and it includes the sentence, "I had just witnessed the drive-by catcalling of a grandmother", so I don't know how much age is respected...

Guess it depends on your definition of "old." :shrug:

The emphasis is on the "father," in other words, not the "age."

It's not like someone being too close to you on a bus or something. And it makes the world feel a little less safe. Most young women don't need that. I stopped walking to the store for my mom when I was 12. :shrug:

/grammar

And I want her to be. But I want her to feel safe. If this young woman's experience (in the OP) is typical, my anxiety level (which is high enough) is going up.

caught offguard and hurt or shamed. Maybe with a friend she hangs out with and a cool mom.

Some guys are just plain sadistic and cowardly and enjoy freaking out little girls. Prepare her.

:hi:

:scared:



Thank you for the advice!

:toast:

and a context!

:hi:

If she is like my daughter, even when she was 12, she looked much older. She would shout out at guys who would harass her "I'm only fourteen!" , although now I question whether that was wise, as some prefer younger "women" anyway.

Yeah, just make sure that she knows what to do. Good luck!

when I was a girl she kept reminding me - if a man tries to grab you, kick or hit him in his balls
as hard as you possibly can and run like hell, yelling loud.


thank goodness I never had to do that, but, being a blue eyed blond got me looked at constantly. I just blanked everybody out.

like a previous poster, people thought I was snooty cause I didn't say hi in passing.

:shrug:

When an older woman does this, she's "bold" and "age-defiant" and "life-affirming". When an older man does it, it's "creepy" and "lecherous". And it's more acceptable to express disapproval at an older man for having sexual feelings than it is to do so to a gay man.

On Earth, the culture celebrates May-December romances when May is female and December is male. Just think of Hollywood's unending list of movies with that configuration in the leads. It is only very recently that the opposite configuration has even been taken seriously.

Well said, BurtWorm.

If someone 25+ years older leers at you openly, yeah, it's gross. Not because of the age...but because of the age DIFFERENCE.

I have no problem with older men. I just want them when I'm an older woman.

Men will find women in their twenties attractive for the rest of their lives.

And I suspect women will always resent that and retaliate by trying to spread a social taboo about it.

But leering at them openly is unacceptable. Women did not "create" a social taboo. It's human nature to want to date someone that is rather close to you in age. Why would I want to hook up with a guy that's gonna kick the bucket when I'm only about 50 or so? So I can have the joy of spending my golden years all alone?

Plus, why would a virile young woman OR man opt for someone much older that they are not attracted to, when they could date in their own age range? They wouldn't. Again, it's just human nature.

I'm a young guy, but there are a lot of divorced wealthy older women in their forties in my neighborhood amongst all the yuppies in their 20s. I think it's cool that they flirt with me.

I'm not really talking about dating, anyways, I'm more just talking about desiring, and no one's telling you that you have to date them. But vilifying them for who they are, I don't think that's acceptable, and I can't figure out why people who would defend the right of LGBT people to their own sexuality, would make an older man feel bad about admiring a woman in her twenties.

are two different things.

you are brilliant!

Guess what? Older women also find men in their twenties attractive for the rest of their lives.

But I, as an older woman, would feel creepy hitting on a much younger man, whether or not society has any taboos about it.

Personal class and taste, i suppose, but to each his own. But really, if you are trying to sell some idea that older men are being persecuted for having relationships with much younger women, you probably have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell as well.

I see older men/younger women couples All. The. Time. And there is no mass societal outcry about it. What bothers you is realizing that some younger women find it creepy.

As an older woman, if I heard a younger man say that old women hitting on him is gross, I would not whine that an entire generation of older men orchestrated some Shame-fest against Older Woman Lust. I would consider that young man to be acting completely appropriately for a person his age.

Unreal....really....the victimhood....

but, they should keep their "attraction" to teen aged girls to themselves. (Coming from a once-teen aged girl and the mother of a 15 year old who finds guys over the age of 19, gross.)

That's never been a social taboo and probably never will.

It's always been about how much money a man has and how good-looking a woman is.

Now that more women have more money, it has somewhat changed.

But an older person who has the do-re-mi can always get a younger mate.

and if we catcall at them, they might find it to be gross.

This isn't about finding someone attractive, it's about catcalling.

then you'll be spreading it yourself. LOL.

What's wrong with older women in an older man's eyes? If I was say 57, I wouldn't be hitting on any Lindsay Lohan-aged women. Ecch, that's just creeptacular, the whole "love knows no bounds" attitude on this board aside. First off, there are more than enough great looking older women out there that you don't need to satisfy your perv fantasies. "Older" doesn't mean "Aunt Bea" anymore. Secondly, wouldn't you want to be with someone you'd have something in COMMON with, God forbid?

:rofl:

Or knows what a frigging Atari 2600 is????

:argh: :headbang:

lol

But I like to bust out the Combat cartridge every so often:

Did I pass?

:hi:

Male sexuality is great, LoZoccolo, but when the behavior is aggressive, unwanted, and lewd, it becomes something very different.

That's when it's a personal attack and a deliberate attempt to debase someone, usually a stranger who has done nothing to provoke the harrasser. That is not sexy at all.

:sarcasm:

Untli you hit the "sarcasm" smily, that is. That's such a crutch and the calibre of your sarcasm doesn't need one.

it always surprises me.

I don't think I've ever even seen a guy do it.

On other hand, most guys are complete and total pigs, so it doesn't surprise me that it would be common.

I should also state that I live in CO, and people are little more socially reserved in that way here.

and lived in the big city it happened all the time. Normally I played deaf. My act deaf act was solidified one time while crossing a dowtown street, armed with shopping bags. A man in a car, stopped at the traffic light kept yelling: "Hey! Hey!"

I of course ignored this. Then the man yelled, "Hey you dropped something!"

I looked behind and around me. I had dropped nothing. Then the man yelled:

"Hey! You dropped your manners! A lady is supposed to answer when a gentleman talks to her....bitch!"

After that, I never ever responded to a catcall.

Incidentally, I got the most catcalls when I was pregnant.

lol

I think it temporarily overrides our brain. Something else, why have we added so many 'enhancement' products? Isn't virtual porn enough? I never knew we had such a 'ego crisis' in todays age as we do? I thought things were supposed to be better in modern times.

A hard on for 4 hours!? Are we compensating for something lost?

Sorry didn't mean to rant. Just wondering out loud.

(and it's been a while I'm assuming, because I now usually have my child in tow...)

I was standing at a major interesection in the Med Center in Houston waiting for the light to change. A guy in a pickup truck decided to "compliment" me by sticking his head out of his driver's-side window and hooping and hollering like a teenager. Problem was, he forgot to stop his truck and he drove right through the red light into the intersection and nearly killed himself and three other people.

neighborhood talking all kinds of stuff to her. SHE WAS PUSHING A DOUBLE STROLLER with two kids in it, and wearing a one-piece bathing suit with a bathing suit cover that covered everything down to her knees.

One of the dudes was asking when the kids took naps so he could come over later. She told him to get a job, leave her alone and asked the lifeguard to call the police. The three guys left pretty quickly.

My wife is 31 and pretty. We live in a racially mixed area (60-40 black folks to white folks probably) and the harrassment really doesn't go down any racial likes.


Rings didn't deter, kids didn't deter, "Leave Me Alone" didn't do it either. I think it's part of a youth culture that treats women like a quick sexual encounter. Or a piece of .....

We had to join a gym so she could go run on the treadmill. Our neighborhood has 250 houses and 800 owned townhomes and 900 rental units townhomes). She can't run by herself anymore, she's had guys get in their cars and follow her around and try to talk to her as they drive slowly while she's running on the sidewalk.

It's disgusting really, and a lot of her friends have had the same experiences.

:grr:

That is a social problem that the local government should be held responsible for solving.

Being 6'6" and 280 lbs, that kind of thing never happens when I'm around. I know she's really frustrated, but we live on the edge of the city and near the "bad part of town". We don't see too many cops out our way.

My wife's best friend is 28 and young and blonde and she carries mace and a cell phone when she goes out running. She's never used it, but she sure has threatened it.

Never happens when he's around. Sort of like trying to observe nocturnal creatures with flashlight in hand.

I guess there will always be people with no class. :(

grope me in the hallway, laughed and went into the men's room. I was 19. But, there just happened to be a uniformed cop sitting in the coffee shop side of this place and I asked him to please help me.

When Mr. Groper came out of the head, there was my new cop friend standing with me and he demanded an apology and in general, scared the Cr@P! out of the guy.

There's 'way too much of this stuff that goes unchallenged because the object (woman but also men as we've seen on this thread) feel or are made to feel like they brought it on themselves, which is bs.

I don't know how women can put up with it. If a woman pulled out a gun and shot a guy for doing that(or a can of mace, or a taser, or any kind of self-defense weapon), I would classify that as self-defense. That's just plain old fashioned stalking right there.
Back before I had a car, when I used to walk to work every day I'd see it happening (I'd get yells too, but since I'm a guy none of them were sexual) at least once a week, usually more often. I started thinking about buying a can of mace, just so that I could offer it to any women who were being catcalled. :evilgrin:

...(she says sarcastically)...is when they turn nasty when you ignore the catcalls. "Oh, you think you're too good? Bitch! Cunt!"

Yeah, it gets old.

you're telling me women don't like it? Even if I grab my crotch in an "affectionate" manner?

Who'da thunk it?

When I was in Washington, DC, I could hardly walk on the sidewalk without having a guy make remarks. Broad daylight, near the U.S. Capitol, dressed in business clothes... on the other hand, I'm clearly under 30, and I usually walked alone. I find it deeply offensive for several reasons: one, I'm bisexual with a slight preference for women. Two, it is flat-out not right that I, as a young single female, cannot walk the street in daylight without feeling threatened. And for anyone who says "oh it's not a threat," well, YOU don't know that. Some of it may well be guys being vulgar and boorish, nothing beyond that, but how do you determine what's an actual threat? To me, any guy who makes sexual comments toward a complete stranger is lacking a certain sense of boundaries.

with a hint of stalking added in for that little extra zing.

(Mount Pleasant in DC) and it is a problem. I am male and fairly big, and I am routinely asked to walk women home a couple of blocks out of my way, simply to avoid this. The subtext is MtP is that there is a large Latino community (primarily El Salavdorean and Guatemalan) and my friends who experience this routinely blame the latino population for this problem (and I am talking about people who are the most liberal you can imagine, so it really isn't racism, it's experience) It really is a shame that such a small number of vocal 'men' create an uncomfortable situation for so many.

(and I'm definitely not being racist because I AM latino).

I've been in several South American cities (visiting family) and I'm always suprised at the cultural differences. In South America, if your NOT aggressive, your chances of hooking up are slim. Girls there EXPECT it, and, I don't see why, they seem to LIKE it. So when Latino males come to our culture, they act similarly and a lot of people find it off-putting.

HOWEVER...there is another difference I find. Whereas latino males seem very good at taking rejection (they don't take it personally, so they aren't angry), the white guys I've seen cat-calling get angry, and will call a woman names.

I don't know...I don't get the point of catcalling. Don't these fuckers know that its creepy and gets you nowhere? It is ridiculous.

They're not reflecting well on their community. If they think they're just engaging in good-natured fun, would they stop doing it if they realized they're making women feel unsafe and threatened?

I bet you a lot of them would. I think women and men need to be more vocal about their displeasure or fear. The problem is, that culture can be very engrained. I think immigrants would be a lot better about it (if they are new immigrants, then they are self concious and more likely to change).

I know that when I was in Mexico, I saw a girl get VERY angry at some mexican guys who were catcalling. I think they were horrified and taken aback. One of them apologized profusely.

Here in North America, it doesn't seem as friendly though. I was just taking to one of my co-workers who gets hit on A LOT and she said that when you turn down guys, they get angry and call you a bitch and a cunt (these are white boys...no latinos around here).

and that infuriates me. I have a daughter who is about to enter her teens and I really want her to feel free to just be in the world without having to worry about assholes and psychos.

But it's not just that neighborhood. Me and the missus lived on the corner of 16th St. and Columbia Road for three years and this happened to her on a daily basis. Now we live in the Chillum area but even though we're only a ten minute walk from the Metro, I still go and pick her up from the station after she gets off work because she's not particularly keen on dudes yelling at her from the windows of passing cars (which will happen at least once if she walks, even if it's pissing down with rain and she's huddled under an umbrella wearing jeans and an overcoat).

Chillum really exists? I thought it was just a place made up to scare disobediant children in Bethesda? :)

are you guys ever playing again?

although I think most of it's in Maryland, oddly enough.

We're on brief hiatus - should be playing out again in a few months.

from construction workers. I recall the woman flipped them off, which they seemed to appreciated, they applauded.
That incident seemed generally harmless, though, and they weren't being gross or disgusting, mainly whistling or saying "you look great!", that sort of thing.

I'm only relating what I've personally witnessed, as per the OP, however, I know plenty of second hand horror stories about it.
And, having been sexually harrassed by a female supervisor once, I get the idea of how uncomfortable it ACTUALLY feels vs. what you think it would feel like.

I think the catcallers are definitely in two groups, the "good old boys" who have no intention to be creepy, but more appreciative, and the creepy ones. But neither one would make the focus of the attention comfortable, I imagine.

:(

both would make one uncomfortable.

When it happens, the first thing on my mind is "get away from here ASAP (without making it obvious you're nervous)."

As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing truly harmless about it. It's against the law for people to do it at work, or school, or in virtually any other situation. It's against the law for them to continue doing it after being brushed off. There's a good reason for that, too. We have the right not to have to accept unwanted attentions from people.

It really is a power thing. These men do not know me. When they do that, they see me as nothing but a sexual object, and they do it in part because they realize that they won't be held accountable for it. I think they KNOW it makes women uncomfortable and they get their kicks from exerting that pitiful amount of "power."

in consensual sex.

But to experience that aggression, out of the blue and from strangers in any register, is threatening. It's not harmless, I agree. It's predatory behavior.

/typos

Doesn't really happen now that I'm older but then I was around 25 in the EV and this guy in a van was hooting something and when I ignored him he said, fuck you, you're too skinny anyway. Well that made me mad, so I wrote down the number on the back of his van and went home and called to tell them what their employee was doing on the company's time. I asked for the supervisor and was put through to a woman. She promised to take care of it. That was a very satisfying experience.

in on 40 not so much----i look back and i now kind of miss those days, seems like once you get over 30 you kind of disappear.

attention and not having to deal with that sh!t is one reason I LOVE being this age. I can make myself attractive to people whose attention I want without being an effen target every time I walk anywhere. Freedom, choice, nice things. lol.

during my day (someone who wasn't my boyfriend thought I was cute!). Now...crickets. Sigh.

I never felt threatened but I'm a guy.

now that I'm older - no. "Back in the Day" my girlfriend and I always said that we should write a book about the 'stupid things men say to women' (and WHY would any guy think some of these 'lines' would work in attracting any good/genuine interest in them? - it does exactly the opposite! Major turn-off. Yuck.)

Funny true story: When I was in my 20's, my dad and I worked in the same large office building in the city. One day at lunchtime, I was walking through the huge lobby area and my dad was just returning from lunch with one of his younger staff members (my dad was in upper management). The younger staff guy spotted me (not knowing that I was related to my dad), and made some sort of "comment" about me to my dad. My dad said to the guy, "that's my daughter". The guy's jaw dropped and thought my dad was kidding. So my dad called out to me and I turned and went over to them. My dad introduced me to this guy as, of course, his daughter. I couldn't understand why my dad was introducing me to this pale, nervous, slack-jawed staffer of his.....didn't make sense until my dad explained to me at dinner that nite what had happened. My dad got quite a chuckle out of the whole thing - and I'm sure that guy would forever be more careful about the comments that he made - even to other 'guys'. hehe

Great story.

then I might feel a little funny too. It's just one of those things.

And I strode in a very strong, non-nonsense way. How do I begin listing the reasons it outraged me?

1) Why can't I walk a city street without having my thoughts interrupted by an arrogant ass?
2) Why does the arrogant ass think he has a right to interrupt my thoughts?
3) Why does the arrogant ass think he has a right to comment on my appearance?
4) Why does the arrogant ass think I have any interest in what he thinks of my appearance?

My view was "silence is consent" so I used to be fairly confrontational (and scary :P) when harassed.

I like to flirt, but catcalls have nothing to do with flirting.

I was walking with my teen daughter last week and she was loudly whistled at by a group of "men," one of whom had just spit on the sidewalk. The more she thought about it, the more it bothered her. "Why would they think I would be interested in them, just because they whistled at me?"

Nothing much has changed, I guess.

No kidding.

...:evilgrin:

Fucking creepy creeps imposing their bullshit on me. God, do I hate it.

I developed this method of flipping them off over my shoulder without making eye contact, and once it turned out it was a friend of mine honking at me and I never even looked at him enough to figure that out. Oops!

As soon as I told him why, he understood though. (I was a blonde at the time, that was the worst of all the hair colors I went through in that regard.)

I'm male and have never cat called nor been with guys who do it. It must be how our mommas raised us as we say in the South. Catcalling is just not within my experience.

One day I was meeting with a close colleague at a coffee shop in downtown Birmingham. This friend is a stunning woman in her mid 30s. As we were walking out of the coffee shop and down the sidewalk, a car with a man in a suit pulls up and yells out his window, "Damn!!!" while slowing down. He leers at her and smiles and gives me a thumbs up. I looked at him incredulously and said, "What is your problem? Are you nuts?" He laughed and drove on. I was amazed and looked at her with my mouth hanging open. Very un-fazed, she said, "It happens all the time. Men of all backgrounds, ages and races do it."

I couldn't believe it. I want to meet these guys mothers and ask them where in the hell they were when their sons were growing up.

There are workers losing their jobs, soldiers losing their legs, and citizens losing their government; yet we're talking about catcalls because the Carrie Bradshaws of the world feel slighted?

Big difference.

It's all about power politics, objectification of the other, men (frequently) not taking responsibility for the real consequences of their actions.

It's all of a piece.

And it's not about being slighted but about being made to feel your physical safety threatened.

understand more about the ebb and flow of conversation around here. Starting a post with a "Who cares?" is not going to gain you anything here.

*crickets*

We're able to be concerned about more than one thing at a time, believe it or not. And "the Carrie Bradshaws of the world" feel vulnerable and potentially scared.

Whilst inappropriate comments or actions are repugnant and despicable, if you ladies go out in public looking all yummy, what are we dogs...sorry, 'men' supposed to do? Pretend we DON'T find you attractive?

Oh, and this is another thing...the writer said this "Wearing jeans, sneaks, shirt with some cleavage" about her attire before she was harrassed, so lemme ask you, once and for all...if you ladies are flashing the boobies, are we supposed to look at them or not? Because I am eternally confused on this issue...if you are showing an acre and a half of cleavage, I won't be able to help myself...I'm gonna have to look...

I can't help it...I'm a guy...I love women (one in particular more than the rest of you) and if my duly and dreary day is lightened up by the fleeting presence of a pretty woman, then I am a happier man for it.

I do NOT engage in cat-calling (never been able to figure out the point really), but if you go out looking like the hotties that you all are, you are GONNA GET SOME LOOKS...because men like women...

People dress up, devote attention to their appearance, because they expect to be looked at when they go out. I don't know any woman who gets upset and offended if she passes a man on the street who takes a look at her, and I know some women who will take a second look at men who are attractive. That much is just human nature. Leering and unsolicited comments are another matter altogether. It's all about respecting someone's boundaries. A leering man who simply won't look away despite being glared at can be just as threatening as a sleaze who makes lewd comments.

"yummy?" Make a mental note, "She looks yummy." And keep your mouth shut.

:hi:

...of course...

Seriously, are you that controlled by women's bodies that your behavior is entirely determined by her dress, manner of walking, etc.?

Not to be harsh, but gird up your loins like a man, grab the pair God gave you, and remind yourself that your behavior is dependent on your choices and decisions, not the attire of others.

..and grabbing my balls has nothing to do with my behaviour...unless I'm Italian...:evilgrin:

a complete stranger and without your permission.

Looking doesn't make the same demand.

Does that make sense?

...it's at least moderately possible to say in a way that's civilized, or at least polite/tactful/appropriate/etc.

My own actions have never gone beyond Keep Your Mouth Shut, myself, but I'd like to think that if I 'had' to say something to someone I could do so without being a complete jackass. (Not that I expect that to happen; even if I were currently single I'm a poster boy for introversion.) I never got why, when people are going to say anything at all, they have to shut off their cerebrum to do so.

A couple of my friends, on one(1) occasion each, ran into situations where someone felt they Just Had To Say Something and did so in a way that was about the polar opposite of any of the crap the people in that article, people mentioned throughout most of this thread, etc., seem to have done. The commenters went on their way, my friends spent a day or so a little less in contact with the ground than they usually were, and everyone seemed to be happy.

Every single other situation I've witnessed or heard of? It was stuff like what keeps getting mentioned in this thread. Grr.

I just don't get it. If people are going to say something at all, it can't be that goddamned hard not to at least try not to be a tool in the process.

I'm kind of of the mindset that the world needs some more unsolicited positive comments that actually are positive. Not come-ons or other stuff like that; compliments, and not always necessarily about things like appearance; there's a lot of Good Things in general out there could stand some recognition. There is, of course, a substantial difference between the two ideas, and I wish more people grasped it.

Am I missing something here? Is it actually that hard for everyone out there to have a little consideration or empathy should they choose to speak to others?

(In case the context helps, I'm in a medium-small city - big enough that you're not going to recognize most of the people you pass in the street, but small enough that people usually don't feel uncomfortable at least greeting one another as they pass, etc. This place would vanish inside New York, or even Toronto.)

And staring of any sort is rude. Consider it a duty to civilization.

And then at a certain point it was a nuisance, but to be honest with you now I'm 47 so it's somewhat reassuring when somebody tries to chat me up and stuff cuz I'm having a hard time coming to grips with what seems like all-of-the-sudden being this age.

it's about catcalling. Not looking. Catcalling makes women feel vulnerable and potentially frightened. In our society, if men want attention from a woman, they expect to get it. If you are a woman sitting by yourself, chances are some man will try to get your attention and try to start a conversation with you. If you are busy reading or something and don't want to have a conversation, and you say, "Sorry, I'm a bit busy right now to talk," he will feel slighted because he believes he has a right to your attention, and he might even call you a "bitch". That's what women who don't give attention to men when they want it are called. So if a man has tried to get your attention by catcalling and you ignore it, in the back of your mind you are worried about how he will respond to that. Will he get angry? Will he pursue you? What will happen?

american men have a breast and nipple fetish

...but I still like boobies... ;-)

"Looking" and "leering" are two VASTLY different things, but with a very fine line between them.

If a woman catches you "looking" have the decency to avert your eyes, and stop invading her personal space. If you continue to ogle, you've crossed the line to aggressiveness. You stare at a dog that long, you'll get bitten, see - it's a challenge at that point, and an insult.

And most of the cretins we encounter out there do NOT know the difference.

I will grant you that there are some women who have no qualms about going out in public wearing next to nothing, and while I still maintain they should be able to go about their business without being objectified, knowing how many men are, I'd say that it's at least expected they're going to get ogled. It's up to them to decide if they want to take that risk.

The woman who described herself as wearing jeans, sneakers, and a shirt with some cleavage" was likely not "flashing the boobies" at all. I'm sure her harassers would try to justify it that way, but chances are, she's just curvier than average and cannot even conceal them if she tries. A shirt that might look modest on a slimmer woman with a smaller bust might look very different on a bustier woman. The fact is women HAVE boobs, we can't help it - but we have a right to go out in public, boobs and all, WITHOUT being harassed, leered at, ogled, whatever.

To address your question from personal experience, I make every effort to conceal my body and pull back my hair when I have to go out in public, since the harassment is so constant and so bad, I do anything I can to hide my femininity. I live in an area where it regularly gets over 100 degrees in the summer, yet I still tend to wear long pants, a loose fitting shirt, and tie a sweater around my waist to fend off constant "nice ass" type comments, catcalls, and leers.

Yet still, I can be walking (purposefully, briskly, and confidently, NOT like a victim) behind some woman who IS IN FACT "showing the acre of cleavage" as you described and a whole lot more, and practically begging for attention, and in most cases, leches on the street will overlook the obvious, turn to ME and start in with the "hey beautiful, hey sexy" and the worst one..."smile."

*stab*

I'd be tempted to think that they were making fun of me, but this sort of attention started in my preteens, and hasn't stopped yet. I've been followed and stalked before too, so that is a pretty good indicator that these psychos mean business.

So, since you asked, what you see as harmlessly "admiring women" and "giving looks" might be seen by the women as hostile and unwanted. A stare and a catcall aren't much different, trust me. It's also quite likely that these "hotties" you describe aren't trying to go out in public "looking all yummy," but just happen to be nice looking people who are just trying to go about their business looking presentable, and are quietly praying to go unnoticed and be left alone for even one day.

Just because a woman looks good or dresses nice does not mean she's doing it to impress every aggressive ass on the street, in fact, it's more likely, she's doing it for herself, and just wants to be respected, for who she is as a person, no matter HOW she looks.

So there's your answer, and thanks for having the decency to at least inquire, share your opinion, and allow feedback. I guess the bottom line is that while you, and many other men might feel that the way you look at women is harmless, (and you may truly mean no harm) the woman receiving the attention might feel very threatened or put off by it. Just an FYI.

O. M. G.

That started when I was a young teen. Even the most vulgar comments made as I passed, although infuriating, didn't enrage me quite as much as being ordered to smile.

I even had a rush of fury when you mentioned it.



:nuke:

That one always made me want to plant my fist right in somebody's face and then grin. Came close to it a time or two but always figured the best thing to do was keep moving.

then go FUCK YOURSELF.

My standard reply to the order to "smile."

But, I like your answer better. :spray:

I can't really imagine going around ordering people to smile.

It irks me to no end. What guy came up with this and then told other guys it works?

Looking is fine. Continuing to stare after a few moments, giving me a little eyebrow raise, making comments--that's a bit much. Women generally appreciate it if you remember there is indeed a human being--a breathing, thinking person!--attached to those orbs of flesh you enjoy so much. Don't dehumanize us, is all we're saying.

If you check her out and she likes you then it's considered flattering. If you check her out and she thinks you are gross then it's a threat. Likewise, if you introduce yourself and she thinks you are a hottie, it's flirting. If you introduce yourself and she thinks you are gross, it's an attack. Whistling and catcalling is always idiotic though.

then it's impossible to imagine "liking them" "being flattered" or "finding them hot."

I think any woman confronted by the come-ons of someone they don't know is going to feel threatened and think it's gross, or an attack. (Or might soon potentially become one.)

It's hard to imagine when there could ever be an circumstance when a man showing sexual attention to a random passerby or "introducing himself" to a stranger because he likes how she looks, could ever be seen as anything other than creepy and way too forward. What in God's name possesses someone to think they can just hit on someone they have never met and haven't even been introduced to? Chances are, the women these creeps hit on in the streets are married, in relationships, and/or completely unavailable in some way. There are attractive woman everywhere - that doesn't mean anyone has a right to just approach them and treat them like conquests, or fair game.

Not once have I ever been okay with this sort of thing because the guy was "hot" or attractive. In fact, there's no differentiation. No leering, ogling, whistling, man getting in my face is ever going to be attractive.

A strange man demanding my attention is creepy 100% of the time.

... he had no chance with the girl *anyway*, and so he had nothing to lose, and got to let of a little steam at the frustration of not having a shot.

Point being: Maybe one way to get guys to stop being jackasses like this is to make very clear to them that even if they have no chance with the girl, the guy still *does* have something to lose by jackass-ing out. Stories in this thread about cops-by-bathrooms, fathers-introducing-daughters, and the like are what I have in mind. Such stories turn on the guy realizing - belatedly - that he DID still have something left to lose.

In life in general, things get hard to manage when your opponent feels he has nothing left to lose. It's in our interest to ensure that our opponent is *crystal clear* that things can still get much worse for our opponent.

:rofl:

I receive no such attention.

I remember when I was a young pup, cruising the streets with my buddies, and yelling "Hey Baby", and howling like a wolf out of the car window. One of my friends even had a Mr Microphone.

Amazingly, that "pick-up" line never worked. Imagine a woman not being thrilled by 4 guys in a rusted Olds Cutless Supreme yelling at her.

I finally wised up when my dad pointed out that I was "like a dog chasing a car...If he caught it, he wouldn't know what to do with it".

Remarkably, the best "pick-up" line turned out to be "Hi, my name is ___________".

I just roll my eyes when men defend catcalling or boorish pick-up lines by saying "well how else are we supposed to let girls know we're into them?" And I reply, "maybe by treating them as human beings you're interested in getting to know rather than as pieces of ass you want to score with?"

I'm glad you learned that valuable lesson... if a guy approaches me in a bar and says something friendly and NON SEXUAL and proceeds to introduce himself, I'm actually likely to continue on having a conversation with him. But if the first thing he says to me is some crude or suggestive remark about my appearance, I have already written him off him in my as a loser and a boor, regardless of what he looks like or says after that.

told a girl in the group who was 16 she had 'a great set of tits' while we waited for the elevators in the lobby of the Empire State Building.

All of us in the group went to a rural HS in Missouri and we were stunned. In our hometowns nobody would dare say that because you sure as hell would know who they were and then Dad would be paying that person a visit.

It was a very strange experience. That was my only personal experience with a catcall.

Probably much less road rage back home as well. People definitely think twice about being public assholes when they know their victims might be teaching their kids, wiring their house, filling their cavities, or sitting on the zoning board to which they are applying for a variance.

...it's hard enough for me just to make eye contact and say "Hi" if I happen to find her attractive...

PLEASE do not take up catcalling. It's not a measure of confidence and bravery, it's the mark of a sick, weak pervert.

The fact that you DON'T catcall is wonderful - please stay that way!

not telling her she has a great rack.

that has pissed me off ever since I was a kid and saw adult males doing that to women. I would think to myself..."I'm sure you just totally made her day, buddy...NOT!" As someone that got bullied as an undersized, shy, sensitive type of kid, I know exactly how these women feel as the target of this kind of "flirtation"...

Now that I'm all grown up as a 6'1" guy that takes care of himself in the gym, I don't have to put up with that crap anymore, but I still have complete empathy for women in this position.

Besides, I was raised by a very strong Mom who would have given me a royal ass-kicking if she saw me treating any woman that way! :rofl:

When I was younger and out walking, I would often have older guys (for some reason they invariably drove big American cars) pull up beside me, and ask me if I wanted to "go have a beer" or "get high"
I would always tell them no and then they would drive on. While that was admittedly creepy, it was still far less disturbing and invasive than what many women have to endure.

Just seems to work that way. The only women I've ever heard complaining about it all seem to mention New York, Philly, or other East Coast metropolises. I don't get the sense it's a big problem in San Francisco; if anything, I'm the one who gets the random propositions from strange men down there (although not so much in my middle age. Sniff!) But I don't remember any women complaining about it in Chicago, either.

Having split my 40-odd years of life pretty much halfway between NYC and SF, I agree that it does not happen on the Left Coast very much. And I got leaner and more fit living out here, so it's not like I got less traditionally attractive.

Everywhere you go. I get just as badly harassed in all areas of California as I did in Boston and DC.

It's unfortunately inescapable.

didn;t happen to me in LA because i was always with other people and always driving. Guys just lacked the opportunity. SF and Chicago I walked and there was no difference between there and NYC. Europe was worse, in Europe, I'd get followed .

it was embarrassing and it made me feel very vulnerable.

But even in Chicago the women I know don't seem to think its as bad as the stories I'm hearing about from New York and DC.

Part of me wonders if they do it because once in a great while it actually works for somebody. :shrug:

she's found her niche :)

don't feel too terrrized to just walk around minding their own business.

rather than the broader problem of these creeps yelling out to women. It is indeed a behavior that women should not have to put up with, but I honestly do suspect that Ms Bradshaw...er...Klinger is carving out a niche for herself. We cynics are right far more often than we are wrong.

we shall see

Edit: since you are bit of a rude one yourself...where in the hell did you learn to spell "terrorized"?

;)

:hi: mitchum!

It doesn't matter what you wear, how covered up you are, how "unapproachable" you are, or how much you are NOT asking for it. It's unrelenting, constant, and never ending.

Often, having a man with you doesn't even stave it off.

It's fucking disgusting and not only is it a sure way for a perpetrator NOT to get any action, it's also a great way for the perp to make a complete ass of himself. (But accomplish little else.) Why they lower themselves to do it, I don't know. I'm supposing it has something to do with an inferiority complex, coupled with a predatory nature, a hatred of women, a grotesquely undersized penis, and a pathetic need for attention.

I started getting subjected to this sort of attention when I was about ten or eleven years old. I'm still waiting for it to end. I have never dressed in revealing clothes, I am not voluptuous, I do not "dress to impress" I do not show skin. Why someone would even look at me, I don't know.

I'm just female, and that makes me a target, I guess.

But yeah, men who do this: pathetic.

A catcall is what you do when a referee doles out a penalty against your team unfairly, or when you yell at Snidely Whiplash.

to women going about their business. Like you are being heckled for living.

It's not gratifying.

It's not sexy.

It's not inviting.

It's not "flattering" because it actually has nothing to do with how attractive I am. It doesn't make me feel sexy; it makes me feel objectified. Or hunted. Ugh!

I was in St. Louis last weekend - God, I think I got catcalled more that night than any other single day of my life. It was at night, too, and I was only with a couple of other girls, so it was an incredibly creepy, threatening experience. Some assholes even drove slowly by us and TOOK PICTURES OUT OF THEIR WINDOW while hooting and hollering. It was UTTERLY repulsive.

I should've got their license plate and reported harassment to the police.

...men have the emotional maturity and intellect of fourteen year old boys.

I was just pointing out that a catcall has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Don't blame me. I didn't write the dictionary.

I'm not saying this very well, am I? :)

Duh, This is from a blog or something?

Let me get this straight, she hates the attention...so she writes about it in a Free Newspaper? It's even the cover story!

First, I think it depends on the city/neighborhood and the number of bored, underemployed and Homeless people in said city. Add to that all the Sociopath Politicos of Washington D.C. and what do you expect?

I say, be careful what you wish for, it could be over for you very soon, youth is fleeting.

I had a very good year, socially, my Freshman year of College and wished privately to know if the girls liked me because of how good I looked. Well, that problem didn't last long, I long for those days now.

pleasant because I couldn't walk down the street without being harassed by some arrogant asshat.

think is going to happen. Seriously, what the hell is going on in their head? Do they think this will get them laid or something? Sure, girls like a guy with confidence. But being a jackass isn't showing confidence, it's just being a jackass.
Although I have been guilty of quoting from Animiacs and saying, "Hellooooo Nurse." every now and then when I see a pretty girl. :) I just don't YELL it AT the girl.