Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Mourn the tragedy of the Tahoe fire, but please recognize the wasteful futility of it all

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 01:55 AM
Original message
Mourn the tragedy of the Tahoe fire, but please recognize the wasteful futility of it all
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 02:15 AM by jpgray
Building in areas like Tahoe or the Topanga canyon is dangerous due to likelihood of fire. It's akin to building on a coastal/bank area or islands where there are high odds of a hurricane wiping everything out completely. Some areas are already settled, and it does no good to berate the people there. But in other cases, it's hard not to feel like shouting at the system that encouraged complete ignorance to ruin people's lives. To wit, the Outer Banks, as described by Matthew Engels in the Guardian (the whole article is an excellent read):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1069883,00.html

On the map of the United States, just below halfway down the east coast, you can see a series of islets, in the shape of a hooked nose. These are the Outer Banks, barrier islands - sun-kissed in summer, storm-tossed in winter - that stretch for 100 miles and more, protecting the main coastline of the state of North Carolina. They are built, quite literally, on shifting sands.

...

This is what local agents call "a very nice market", and last month their area had a week of free worldwide publicity. Hurricane Isabel swept in, washing out much of the islands' only road and picking up motels from their foundations and tossing them, according to one report, "like cigarette butts". One island was turned into several islets, with a whole town, Hatteras Village, being cut off from the rest of the US - for ever, if nature has its way.

Residents, journalists reported, were in shock. Many scientists were not. Speaking well before Isabel, Dr Orrin Pilkey, professor emeritus of geology at Duke University in North Carolina, described the Outer Banks property boom to me as "a form of societal madness". "I wouldn't buy a house on the front row of the Outer Banks. Or the second," agreed Dr Stephen Leatherman, who is such a connoisseur of American coastlines that he is known as Dr Beach.

For the market is not the only thing that has been rising round here. Like other experts, Pilkey expects the Atlantic to inundate the existing beaches "within two to four generations". Normally, that would be no problem for the sands, which would simply regroup and re-form further back. Unfortunately, that is no longer possible: the $2m houses are in the way. According to Pilkey, the government will either have to build millions of dollars worth of seawall, which will destroy the beach anyway, or demolish the houses. "Coastal scientists from abroad come here and just shake their heads in disbelief," he says.


The batsoid insane real estate market and its destructive expansions are setting up these tragedies again and again and again. Keep your sadness at their loss, but put your anger in the right place--at the developers and their criminal failure to educate the poor ignorant souls living there that they were creating the obscenity of their own destruction. There are some areas of natural beauty that must remain wholly exempt from the ugly stamp of Lemming "hot market" fortune seekers, not only due to their certain destruction of unique wild treasures, but due to the overwhelming chance of severe tragedy.

And before you trot out the old tempting fallacy of the "logical" comparison or analogy to the risks of living in what we would call normal places (it's like driving a car! no, it's like living in Tornado Alley!), allow me to tell you that simply because we suffer risks in basic urban/rural life does -not- mean we should recklessly up the ante against our own lives and possessions by settling rapaciously in these dangerous but precious areas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. we take higher risks living in beautiful places...
Miami Beach is built on a narrow, flat sandbar between the Atlantic and Biscayne bay in the prime target area for hurricanes. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was wiped off the map within my lifetime even WITHOUT the rising sea levels some expect from global warming.

I would hope that anyone who buys a home in such a place would research and be aware of that risk, no, likelihood, that at some point that sandbar will be wiped away, or at the very least, severely flooded and battered.

I live 400 feet or so from the ocean, at an elevation of about 2 or 3 meters. There is a raised berm of about another meter or two between us and the ocean, but the risk of tsunami and typhoons are always in our minds.

There is also a sizeable pine forest on one side of our place, close enough that flying embers could reach our place if there was ever a big fire.

If I got burned out, it would be a tragedy for us, but I don't think "compassion" of people on a web board would really do us a lot of good. Having good insurance and quick action to at least save our family pics, etc., and making sure we all got out safe and sound would be paramount.

Natural disasters have always happened and they always will.

Ever heard of Paricutín?

Up until 1943, it was just a regular village in Mexico, with flat, fertile soil, where farmer Dionisio Pulido tended his corn fields, until, one day, he notices an odd crack in the field, with smoke belching out of it. Within a year, that crack had grown into a volcano 1000 feet above the surrounding area (total elevation is now 10,400 feet). It buried Paricutin and nearby villages in ash and lava, and today is silent again.

You never know when a volcano is going to pop up in your cornfield.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Change has come Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. We can't wait until the fire is out?
Please?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm sorry if this thread is too soon, but as long as there were threads discussing this issue
I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I hope everyone can separate the reckless real estate practices from the people who are losing so much in the fire--I don't direct any anger at the latter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Change has come Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's an important discussion
I'm just saying lives and property are still at risk and will be for a couple of days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. If people are really upset about this, I'll ask the mods to take down the thread
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 02:40 AM by jpgray
But I thought while it's in the news and flamewars are already ongoing in other threads, we may as well have the discussion about it. I figured there's no sense dragging out discussion of the practices that led to the tragedy if it's upsetting to people.

edit: People can also defer to the mods directly and alert on the thread--I won't take it personally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. No.
We need to think about this issue now, while it is still fresh in our minds.

Katrina by all rights should have been a huge wake-up call. Somehow, it's faded from our consciousness as a nation. While NOLA isn't like the barrier islands at all, the fact remains that there are parts of our country where we should not live.

But the fact also remains that someone will surely buy any house built. No home remains empty forever; sooner or later, someone moves in. If the view is good or the climate is perfect, why, suddenly it's a "market".

And so it goes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. I agree with that.
No place is completely safe, but some places are much more dangerous than others. It's ironic that these dangerous places are the ones with the most coveted real estate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Where I live in Wisconsin is very safe (La Crosse).
Although we are on the Mississippi, the only flooding is usually some water in people's basements--no people on the top of their houses waiting to be rescued. There has never been a recorded tornado in the city's history and bad weather does seem to go around us in both the summer and winter. Yes, there are blizzard, but you just stay inside and I haven't experienced a power loss due to a blizzard. We have no forest fires or earthquakes. We do have a Democratic congressman, 2 Democratic senators (including Russ Feingold) and a Democratic governor. Yes, when I have though about moving from here I realize what a safe place it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
40. I feel that Anchorage is pretty safe, too...
...at least here in town...a little more dangerous on the Hillside which backs up to Chugach State Park and fire danger. About all we have to worry about are earthquakes, and they don't come around all that often. Alaska has massive wildfires every year, but most of them occur in unpopulated areas so the losses are usually minimal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. Our National Guard is in Iraq.
I have plans here in the states to put these guys to work.

I fought fire in Colorado and when we were not at war
the national guard helped. Natural Disasters, we need to bring them home
to do what they were trained for and not fight foreign wars.

They are not called the national guard for nothing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. 'Some areas are already settled, and it does no good to berate the people there.' - Like Tahoe. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Exactly. My ire is directed at the systems that bring settlement to high-risk areas
Destroying natural beauty and putting people and their possessions at undue risk is what any criticism in this thread is about. The people settled there who are losing so much have nothing but sympathy from me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There was a book called "Condominium" years & years ago
It described people flocking to Florida to buy high-rise real estate in hurricane country. Of course, more than twenty years later, it is no longer fiction.

What irritates me is people who would berate the folks who bought there: "they knew it was dangerous"...Maybe not. Who knows what unscrupulous developers told them? And so it goes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I think the debate in that thread got off track with the "I have no sympathy" remark
Considering the serious personal tragedy these people are facing, I don't see how anyone can truly feel that way. I prefer to think the poster said it for effect, or didn't express the actual thought properly. (Especially considering the poster in question is new and had trouble with clear expression in other posts.)

I hoped to separate the current suffering from the real estate practices that can lead to it, but if I fail to do that or this thread is offensive, I encourage people to alert on it so the mods can remove it if necessary. If it really turns ugly I'll ask for it to be removed myself. But I have some strong feelings about aspects of the discussion in cboy4's thread, so I thought I would start this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Another part of the problem - this is a political site, not a social one.
The threads calling for sympathy, prayers, whatever are of a social nature. I think the "no sympathy" posts come from people looking at it through a political prism.

People in real need, need help, so we try to use the political system to get them help.

In the case of people living in Tahoe, of course the firefighters are sent out to hopefully protect as many homes as possible, but most of these homeowners have insurance, so they will probably do okay in the long run, as opposed to the mostly impoverished victims of Katrina.

Now that the fire has spread to a much larger scale, it may be declared a disaster area, and more help will get to that community.


I put it this way, my deepest condolences go out to the people who have lost their places of residence. As for the people who lost vacation houses, well, that's too bad, but it's not the same thing.

I think I made the mistake of being too glib at the beginning in the way I discussed the issue.

It was a social thread about feelings, not about politics, and I should have left it alone as such.

I think your post is just as deserving of discussion as any other. Despite the claims of some, NOBODY has gleefully rejoiced at anyone's loss. Just pointed out that fire country is risky, and that losing a vacation house does not compare in any way to losing your only place of residence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. When people have an emotional connection it's only polite to tread lightly
Especially on an internet message board where it's difficult to get intent across.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You're absolutely right, and I learned a lesson from that thread.
I let my pride get the best of me and fired back at someone who insulted me, when I should have just stayed out from the get-go.

The comments that caused so much annoyance to the OP might have been more acceptable in a different kind of thread, but not in that one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. Yep--best to tread lightly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. My families settle here to get away from the cities and civilization
When you marginalize people like that into a world that only accounts for the urban or suburban life
then you deny the the national parks and lands you enjoy.

These peoples hold these lands as scared
I've had native friends that understand why the
"white man" goes there.

Of course land exploiters and real estate speculators
will always be apart of the republican equation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. There's some reasonable development in wild areas
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 04:01 AM by jpgray
But there are also some horrible eyesores and monstrosities constructed daily which debase the natural beauty. Two drives through southwestern CO separated by ten years was a real eye-opener. Two million dollar homes built on eroding land--it's hard not to reach for "castles in the sand" cliches. Developers who build near areas of great beauty without unreasonably endangering themselves or the landscape have my complete respect. Folks like the Outer Banks developers... not so much. There's a line to draw between living with natural beauty and suffocating it, and while not everyone agrees where to draw that line I think it's a concern everyone can share. Even if we shouldn't live in or on top of these precious areas, at least we can live near enough to visit as often as we like.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. No argument there.......I saw it happened
I have seen the people you talk of and they "move' up there because it is "cool"
You witness them in their SUV and their lack of their humanity.

Many good people lost more than the rich in these fires.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Very true
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diamidue Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. The Washoe Indians lived in Tahoe for centuries
during the summers when there was food, water, game. It was a sacred place.

Too bad modern man wasn't there to "educate the poor ignorant souls living there that they were creating the obscenity of their own destruction".


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Washoe indians spent different seasons in different areas
And they didn't erect huge, immobile, flammable structures they would fear to lose in a fire. I don't see how their existence makes developing huge homes in the area more reasonable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. Let Malibu [sic] burn!
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 06:00 AM by ellisonz
Sloping Suburbia
In one of his last articles, the well-known Los Angeles writer and environmentalist Richard Lillard challenged Frederick Jackson Turner's famous thesis that the American frontier — and with it, the frontiersman — had ended in 1890. As a matter of fact, Lillard asserted, the frontier was alive and well in the Edenic canyons above Malibu and Hollywood. The unique challenge of the wild mountains in the big city brought out the true grit in their self-selected population. "The whole hillside and canyon ambiance, almost always fresh and wild-smelling, both attracts and holds the kind of individual that Frederick Turner and many a traveler, Tocqueville included, knew in the backwoods districts." The neighborly and self-reliant hill folk, moreover, were tempered to heroic proportions by the constancy of the fire danger, "keeping an outlook for arsonists or children playing with matches, as their forefathers once kept alert for hostile aborigines."

-----

Hillside home building, moreover, has despoiled the natural heritage of the majority for the sake of an affluent minority. Instead of protecting "significant ecological areas" as required by law, county planning commissions have historically been the malleable tools of hillside developers. Much of the beautiful coastal — sage and canyon — riparian ecosystems of the Santa Monica Mountains have been supplanted by castles and "guard-gate prestige." Elsewhere in Southern California — in the Verdugo, Puente, San Jose, San Joaquin and San Rafael hills, as well as the Santa Susana, Santa Ana and San Gabriel mountains — tens of thousands of acres of oak and walnut woodland have been destroyed by bulldozers to make room for similar posh developments.

At the same time, suburban firestorms are becoming more apocalyptic. Two-thirds of all the homes and dwellings, for example, destroyed by wildfire since statewide record keeping began in 1923 have been burned since 1980. And as Interior Secretary Bruce Babbit complained while visiting the Malibu fire scene, "fire-fighting is getting more expensive, more hazardous." The new density of hillside housing has transformed the battle against wildfire from a war of maneuver into the equivalent of street-fighting. But larger firefighting armies by themselves are no solution. One national forest official observed: "These fires in Malibu prove that you could throw in every fighter in the world and still can't stop it."

To resume Stephen Pyne's argument that the 1956 Malibu fire was the inauguration of a new fire regime, it may be that the 1991 Oakland fire ($1.7 billion insured damage) and the 1993 Southern California fire complex ($1 billion) marked a qualitative escalation in fire danger, if not the actual emergence of a new, post-suburban fire regime.
http://www.radicalurbantheory.com/mdavis/letmalibuburn-3.html


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Some very poor planning is going on
But no one deserves to lose a home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I didn't say they "deserved to lose the home" and neither does Mike Davis.
The point is very very simple and is a basic fact of "frontier" life: you take your own chances.

Apparently, per the flamefest thread, homeowners were prohibited from clearing pine needles and other debris from the areas around their home's in the name of preventing soil erosion. Logically: fire is a greater danger than dust and mud slides. I smell lawsuits.

Just to pre-empt the "you're a heartless bastard" parade: http://www.amazon.com/Planet-Slums-Mike-Davis/dp/1844670228/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5788078-0055033?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182944363&sr=8-2

Air conditioning? 1/2 the world says WTF is that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. When it's a choice between ruining the soil or losing your house, there's a problem
Taking your own chances is fine, but taking chances on wrecking the landscape is something else. I was just making clear that I don't support moving people from already inhabited areas or bullying them. I don't accuse you of that either. I would simply like the problems of these developments to be more recognized than they are currently.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Point well taken.
I just thought that the Davis article added to the conversation because it made quite a stir in SoCal.

I don't support moving them or "bullying them," but honestly a vicious cycle is created between public servants, residents, and the construction/real estate/insurance agencies, and it should be the latter two bearing the cost of both prevention and suppression. Honestly, as the wildfires of the last decade or so have shown, we have done a horrible job of managing both development and natural cycles. More controlled burns, damn the critics!

:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. The villains make so much money by that time they become very hard to hold accountable
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
28. So, where do you suggest fishermen live?
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 07:36 AM by Breeze54
I don't get it. Haven't there been homes along the coasts since the pilgrims arrived?

And if people shouldn't build near or in the forests then why is it being allowed?

Many people in New England live near and on the ocean and in the mtns. in VT, ME and NH.


I was watching PBS concerning the fires and many were saying that it was land management
that had outlawed the removal of brush etc. near the homes in Lake Tahoe which has fueled
the fire. One woman said she went ahead and removed all the brush near her home anyway
and she said that's what saved her house.

:shrug:

I understand land developers want to build everywhere and it's getting
insane but hasn't a lot of this land been built on and lived on before?




http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/ltbmu/fire/index.shtml">Fire & Fuels Management Lake Tahoe

Prescribed Fire Season 2007

Prescribed fire is an important tool for ecosystem restoration and management.

Background

Before the logging and settlement that began with the Comstock era mining, frequent fires shaped the Lake Tahoe Basin forest. Tree ring studies show that fires burned every five to 20 years on average. These lower intensity fires helped create a complex mosaic pattern of towering old-growth conifers and diverse under story plants, thus helping to maintain a healthy ecological balance in the Tahoe Basin. Recognizing that agencies will not be able to reintroduce fire across the entire Lake Tahoe landscape, reintroducing fire into the Lake Tahoe environment will partially restore the ecosystem to its pre-settlement condition and function.

In the absence of natural fire, a thick layer of downed fuel and smaller trees have accumulated in Lake Tahoe's forests, creating a severe fire risk. The Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit (LTBMU) and other agencies are implementing a program of prescribed fire underburns that are scientifically appropriate for fire adapted ecosystems.

Although slash pile burning is not a restoration tool, it is an efficient fuel reduction treatment method in areas not suitable for underburns. For safety considerations near residential areas, slash pile burning is most often the best treatment method following thinning treatments in overly dense stands that would burn too intensely in an underburn causing unacceptable levels of tree scorch and mortality.


Current Situation

Since 1997, over 1000 acres of landscape underburns and over 3000 acres of prescribed pile burning has been implemented on the LTBMU. In these areas, surface fuels have been reduced and smaller live trees thinned, creating a zone where a damaging crown fire is less likely which provides a safer environment for firefighters.

Increasing the annual number of acres treated with prescribed fire will challenge our future capacity. Despite refinements and improvements in notification and public education, smoke intrusion into nearby neighborhoods will likely increase. Increasing the number of days suitable for burning means more summer burning, which is not likely to dramatically increase acreage accomplishments.
Pile Burning in the Lake Tahoe Basin.


Why piles?

The piles of brush, limbs and tree boles (stems) that one sees all over the LTBMU have been generated from Hazardous Fuels Reduction and Forest Health work being done by Forest Service crews and contractors. The work they are completing is thinning the forest and piling the heavy accumulation of surface fuels. These surface fuels have accumulated over the years because of the exclusion of fire from the Lake Tahoe Ecosystem. In the mid to lower elevations of the Lake Tahoe Basin, fire historically burned in low intensity fires every 8-15 years consuming these fuels. Now, these fuels exist in enormous quantities in many areas. In an effort to reduce the threat of wildfire the Forest Service is using the best means at its disposal to remove these fuels and modifying the forest condition.

More.......


http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/ltbmu/fuels-review/results.html#one">Fuels and Vegetation Management Review


I used to live near Lake Tahoe and spent time up there when I could and it's a beautiful area.
Cute houses and just really pretty. It's a shame what has happened.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. In places they won't wreck with their homes, and in quantity/quality not subject to disaster
It's a societal lunacy, as the article I quote above indicates, to build permanent, expensive homes where they stand a good chance of being destroyed. It's also beyond tragic that these homes can dramatically damage the environments they're placed in before they sadly fall prey to a disaster. It's a scenario where no one wins but the real estate speculators and investors. Slash pile burning harms the environment which the homes were built to enjoy, and avoiding such precautions directly endangers the homes.

Your fishermen examples are not comparable. A fisherman doesn't build a $2 million dollar home right up to the coast, which may recede over the years. Look to Europe and other areas of responsible development, and you won't see any disasters like the Outer Banks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. My point is that there has been housing on the coast for years and
years. I understand what you're getting at and common sense should be used.
But there are things called land management and scheduled burns, brush removal
etc. I mean, by what you're saying; all the people living in tornado zones
should also move somewhere else. Like what was proposed after Katrina. I don't
think there's any "safe place" from nature's rath. But I also don't want to see
roads through Yellowstone and houses. It's a huge and complex problem. And I agree
they shouldn't be building McMansions on ocean cliffs! Seems insane! But there are
houses right on the ocean on the east coast and they've been there for years, some
damaged in hurricannes and Nor'Easters due to erosion, and they get rebuilt or
sometimes moved back away from the coast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. There are coasts and coasts, and already-established residents shouldn't be bullied out
Edited on Wed Jun-27-07 07:41 AM by jpgray
Some coasts have far more stability than others. Some forests have far less risk of ruinous fire than others. Tornado zone homes don't carry a death sentence, as the homes in the Outer Banks possessed. I don't want to kick people out of where they are already established. I only advocate more responsibility in future and current development, and I want people to recognize the severity of the problem. Once the choice becomes "irrevocably harm the landscape," "lose all the homes to disaster sooner or later," or both, it's time to avoid developing residences there. It's true that homes are rebuilt on the coast all the time as it erodes or otherwise changes, but isn't that a tragic waste of resources, life and possessions to begin with? Is there any need to live so close to the coast your home survives at the whim of nature, with destruction inevitable given certain likely conditions? I'm not one for tearing down homes and booting people out of them, but more responsibility needs to be taken in new development, as I hoped the Guardian article made clear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Right
I'm familiar with the Outer Banks and can actually remember the days before the great unregulated real estate boom there. There were always beach cottages on the Banks but they were low and modest, hunkered down among the dunes. Now there are thousands of these gigantic 3-4 story vertical monstrosities--most of them serving as high-priced rental dormitories. The development of the Banks is a "disaster" as you say. It is incredibly stupid to destroy these fragile islands. Fishermen in general hate the excess development and various species of fish are now endangered because of it. The Outer Banks is a case study in how NOT to do it. Shame on North Carolina for letting it happen.

And as in equally fragile environments in the West--nobody wins but the real estate speculators and investors. :cry:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I can scarcely recognize some of the places I grew up out West
It's bittersweet--it's nice that more people can enjoy the wilder places more frequently, but the damage they cause in doing so is sometimes just a bit much. When they risk their own property and lives to no end in the process, then it gets ridiculous in my view. Of course, everyone will draw the line in a different place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. I think we're going to have to
start drawing some lines in the same place...

One thing people can do is just stop thinking they have to own a piece of these places. We will have to learn how to share like Europeans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. The corrupt local officials and the ridiculously wealthy speculators are the problem
It's hard for local government to stand up to that kind of money, or avoid being corrupted by it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. corruption of local officials
is more widespread than anybody realizes and it is everywhere. It is undermining this country from the lowest levels to the highest and is primarily responsible for creating the maximum ugliness and environmental degradation around us.

This is the No 1 issue IMO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
34. Why is it a "tragedy" if these idiots lose their shirts?
Darwin's theory is alive and well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. People are losing their property, their security, and their livelihood
I'd say that's tragic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
37. EXTREMELY well put.
When humans inhabit areas where they are not necessarily part of the "aboriginal fauna" (to coin a phrase from Kipling) they should expect "interesting" things to happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Where should farmers lives?
Most live in the wide swathe of tornado alley where they grow their crops. In fact, America's food basket is basically in Tornado Alley. It stretches from Texas to the northern states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. A dispersed agrarian population at risk from tornadoes is not at all comparable
First of all the settlements are already there, total destruction of all homes in the area is quite a bit less than inevitable, and no irreplaceable natural treasures are being destroyed by the housing. Living in tornado alley is a risk, but it's a comparably mild one. Comparing a tornado to a forest fire in a densely populated, mansion-studded, fire-risky wooded area or to the Outer Banks situation is completely ridiculous--the latter two up the ante of risk so much that tragedy is almost inevitable. In the wooded area case, you have a choice of destroying the beauty of the landscape that attracted people in the first place, or losing the homes--you don't even have that horrible choice with the Outer Banks. How are those concentrated, doomed $2 million homes at all similar to dispersed farm houses in tornado alley?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-27-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
45. For all the money they spend on those homes, you'd think they'd take fire into account...
...when designing them. If the houses were underground and the lots intelligently (and still attractively with native plants) landscaped, this wouldn't happen so predictably and tragically.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC