Black + doesn't speak ghetto = "articulate"

I've stayed out of the "articulate" battle for a couple of days. But I'm seeing so many denials about Biden's comment, that I thought I'd chime in.

(What's one more thread on this topic, riiiight?)

Anyone with any awareness of race relations knows that, many times, when the word "articulate" is used by a white person to describe a black person, it's usually applied with some astonishment. Examples with translations:

"Tamika's presentation was really good. She's so articulate."
Translation: That black girl can talk like a white woman. I was surprised.

"Carl's speech demonstrated that he's very articulate."
Translation: Unlike most black men who speak ghetto ebonics, Carl can talk in English. He doesn't sound "black" at all. I was really surprised!

Now, in context: We have Biden, who already has a record for dishing race-baced insults, who says that Obama is "clean" and "articulate."

Clean. What's that supposed to mean? That he doesn't have prison tats and grillz? That he actually wears tailored suits instead of low-slung gangsta pants. That he's amazingly a black man who's not involved in scandal?

Articulate. Glory beez honey chiles dat boy cuhn speaks likes a whut man!

Maybe referring to Biden as an overt racist isn't right (I'll half-heartedly concede that point, but only half-heartedly) , but he does have a history of putting his lower distal appendage in his pie hole.

And he did such with Obama.

I think that his remarks about Obama reveal a lot about the stereotypes he harbors about black people. Obama doesn't fit his stereotypes; thus, "clean" and "articulate."

HA HA!

What he said about Obama he should have kept to himself.

(No crawfish boil this weekend. :( Etouffee instead. The guys decided it was "too cold" to boil this weekend. Rubbish! :grr: )

So, now we come to Biden's use of the term "mainstream".
http://afro-netizen.com/ (Feb. 1)

(Click on the article title if you find there are blank spaces in the text. It will refresh.)

<snip>

Mainstream is one of those funny words like love and racism, because everyone seems to have their own definitions. For me, my sense is that what Biden wanted to say was that Obama is an assimilitated negro. And the set of criteria for this assessment are Obama's image as non-ministerial Black politician who is smart, clean-cut, telegenic, broadly charismatic, light-skinned, well-educated and one who speaks standard English-speaking as well or better than most whitefolk (i.e., the all too familiar racist compliment: "he's sooo articulate!"). This, on top of the fact frequently noted fact that his mother was white (and from the heartland) and ostensibly may have a split racial allegiance or cultural identity that many hope transcends race entirely.

However, this is not an image or political identity that Obama has to verbalize, but is attributed out of the neurosis of racism that compells its victims to twist reality in such a way that conforms to their socio-political dementia.

Within seconds of ending his seminal public address at the Democratic Convention in Boston 3 years ago, a fellow (white) blogger standing next to me in the nose-bleed section there exaltingly sighed, "He's the Tiger Woods of politics!" A revealing comment meant as compliment and taken (by me) as an insult; code for: he's not really Black. He's just like one of us, only with a slightly darker complexion. He's an exception because he's exceptional.

Blackfolk, just like other oppressed people in this society, are expert in deciphering linguistic and non-verbal codes. And the simple fact remains that to many (but not all) of us, Biden's initial remarks, lengthy protestations and rote genuflection to the arbiters of racial correctness evince the most common strain of unintentional racism that make us question the motivations of the most stalwart white supporters of Obama.

I've read what you snipped. Will read the rest later. Thanks!

"...the most common strain of unintentional racism that make us question the motivations of the most stalwart white supporters of Obama."

"Unintentional racism" is what this all may boil down to. I can believe that Biden didn't really understand or intend the racist aspect of his offhand remark, glowing with praise of the "first" of his kind.

Thanks for posting this

"mainstream African-American" translates into acceptable to white people

Biden didn't say mainstream candidate...he said mainstream African-American

"You ask people about Colin Powell, they say 'He's so well-spoken. He speaks so well. I mean he really speaks well, he speaks so well.' He's a fuckin' educated man, what did you expect him to sound like, you dirty motherfucker? 'I'm'a drop me a bomb taday. I'll be Prez-O-Dent.'"

Precisely the sentiment I was attempting to convey.

:thumbsup:

Tell me that Condi Rice is smart. I always just shook my head, duh, thinking, as SoS she must be pretty smart, but now I see what they are saying. "She's black, but somehow she's smart".

I hadn't heard that skit. :rofl:

is well spoken or articulate.

And "homespun"

I guess Black people aren't allowed to talk in dialects because they don't got any heritage they can be proud of...?

I was brought up by a French mom as my dad was out of town 5 days a week as a salesman. Racism was not allowed in the house. I'm an adult with grown kids and still do not know what is code. I have had black friends, co workers and bosses. I never knew articulate was code but, heard it as a description for Sen. Obama and thought it meant he was a great speaker. It sounded right about him as I greatly admire him and his speeches. When the controversy blew up I could not understand the reason why. Over the days I have found out it is code and feel bad as I have used it. But, I never knew I was being insulting. I thought it described his great oratory skills. I don't use it now.
I just do not know what is concidered code.

No harm, no foul. What is galling is that when so many of our extreme minority on this board choose this moment to weigh in (BECAUSE IT FUCKING RESONATES), express our consternation and offer our personal experiences of being the targets of similar racist attacks that we are blown off like so much chaff. Like somehow WE don't get it, or are oversensitive or have a secret ring with a darkie agenda.

If someone states, "I don't get what the big deal is," and I take the time to explain WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS and 20 others ALSO explain WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS and that someone crosses his arms declaring, "I'M WHITE AND I THINK IT MEANS

THIS

SO FUCK ALL OF YOU, YOU'RE MAKING US LOOK BAD, END OF DISCUSSION." Well, put yourself in my place for just 5 minutes and think it over. 5 minutes is all I ask.

"...we are blown off like so much chaff. Like somehow WE don't get it, or are oversensitive or have a secret ring with a ____ agenda. "

We didn't know THAT was "code", either.

I was raised in a color-blind, class-blind, gender-equal household with a gay brother. I don't "see code".

I didn't think Biden's articulate comment was code; I thought the press were making too much of it or Obama was being over-sensitive in his reply and, honestly, couldn't figure out why Biden apologized! Then I, too, realized that it is like that Chris Rock bit "he speaks so well".

It was hard for me to read anything into "clean"--I assumed it meant he had a clean record (no scandals), which is certainly not a black politician's issue.

can be used sincerely, condescendingly, or sarcastically. Just like "articulate" or any other positive word. It's all those words around it that help you figure out what was meant.

That's the "I admire her; she's a martyr" bless your heart.

"Bless her heart, she wore a mini skirt to the family reunion." That's the "pity her, she's too stupid to get out of the rain" bless your heart.

:D

When I lived in the south I heard people refer to other people in this way and wondered why. Is it to depersonalize or dehumanize someone?

"Bless its little heart, it cut it's itty bitty finger."

Never heard it in reference to an adult. I'd imagine that in reference to adult, yeah, it'd be to dehumanize the person.

I had not a clue about that one. Thank you.

there is no such thing as color/class blindness. You may mean something else by this, but there is none of us who do not see skin tone or that some people have more than others. And as far as code is concerned, "not noticing the color of one's skin" is code for I am in denial of having more prejudices than I should have, and usually means a person is a closet racist. Hence Corbert using the term repeatedly on his show.

I am not saying you are a closet racist, only making you aware that this too is code. Also, two definitions I want to put out there.

prejudice = 1)An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
A preconceived preference or idea. 2)The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. 3)
Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. 4) Detriment or injury caused to a person
by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

racism = 1)a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual
achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2) a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3) hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

I couldn't figure out what was so wrong with calling Obama articulate - he is!

I didn't think it was a code for racism because I think George Bush sounds like an inarticulate idiot and he's white.

Maybe because I was a communications major with an English minor, I just expect people to at least TRY to sound articulate. I don't like ebonics any more than I like redneck. It's not a "race" thing - I just want to sound educated and, well, articulate.

It's funny, but I get accused a lot of times of not being Southern by other Southerners, although I was born and raised in East Tennessee. The reason? I'm articulate. I still sound very Southern. I have a drawl and I still clip my "g's" (like runnin' instead of running, etc.), but, for the most part, I don't have a twang that turns one-syllable words into three-syllable words.

My son is half-Arabic and his father speaks very proper English having learned it in British schools before coming to America - but that matters not when you're brought up in the South. For example, when I was teaching him words, we'd practice everywhere. Once, we were in the grocery store and I pointed to the eggs and asked him what those were and he said, "aigs." I nearly boiled!! It took me forever to get him to say "eggs." I keep telling him that he should be PROUD to have the Southern accent as it's a wonderfully melodious accent, but he needs to still form his words properly because, when he gets older and wants to take his dream job of being an architect in New York City, he won't get hired "if'n he sounds like he jus' fell off'n the turnip truck."

So, you see, it's not a race thing for me, either. It's a "proper English" thing.

If you're saying it because you're surprised, given the person's background, then it's a revelation of your prejudices. If you're just saying it to describe that person, then it's a compliment. It's a subtle distinction. White candidates are described as "articulate" all the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=112653&mesg_id=112653

There are extremely articulate rappers. Or "rednecks". Or "South Philadelphians."

Biden's comments betray a bias as to how intelligent people should speak. In his world, they should speak like wealthy, Ivy-league-educated white people.

Just wondering.

So I'm not sure what your question has to do with my response.

it's based off of a racist stereotype that all black people sound like they're from the ghetto and only use Ebonics, and that the only people who don't, are few and far between! :grr:

I just cannot believe people were making excuses for that asshole, but of course, because most people in America are silently racist in the way of having pre-conceived notions, I'm not surprised. Yeah, racism is gone, my ass!

I think that you have a terrible inability to listen and learn, and to perceive that you are wrong.

Pathetic and weak? I don't know. Thick-skulled and inflexible? Yep.

and silly enough to actually put forth a premise that if you defend Biden you are a racist.

Maybe you need to listen and learn, because declaring such an argument is absolutely pathetic and weak.

And what I said fit the context you laid out.

I would stop trustin what your seein, if I were you.

My saying that putting forth a black and white argument such as 'if you defend Biden your a racist' is pathetic and weak, in no way creates context whereby I am the one guilty of such things. Your comments make zero sense logically. So maybe you should start focusing your vision a bit more before you calls what you sees, cause what you sees is pretty blurry.

The problem here is that this "compliment" is usually based off of that stereotype.

You don't have to hate black people in order to be racist, and that's what most white folks think.

for it to be racist. I don't think Joe Biden hates black people, but I do think he has wrong and pre-conceived notions about black people.

IT's like that argument O'Reilly unsuccessfully used with Whoopi Goldberg on Friday night--he's entitled to his opinion because he believes it's based in (erroneous and self-centered)fact, however anyone who disagrees with him is wrong in their opinion because it's based upon something with which he doesn't agree (and isn't centered and focused on him). Therefore, he feels he's superior to those who perceive things differently than he does and in that false sense of superiority, he is entitled to dictate to others what their truth is or should be.

:spray:

How'd my statement apply to me Omega? Mind putting some substance and explanation behind your replies or is this yet another example of your ability to only provoke without being able to justify anything; EVER.

:rofl:

End your antagonism, provocation and false accusations.

:thumbsup:

Always so easy to just post the character attack, but nearly impossible to see you actually post a defense of your premise or answer to a challenge.

One trick pony. Cracks me up. :rofl:

I really do wish you well. You have a lot of energy that could be used for good.

MM made a funny. Caught you up. Deal with it. Maybe google "Hoist on his own petard."


The fact that you want to pretend my post was a "character attack" that requires a "defense of your premise" or an "answer to a challenge" is ridiculous. You know I won't play that game. You're the One Trick Phony here. You've proven the points MM made in #17.

Go in peace, mindcrime.

If DUers tell you that your overbearing, preposterous pronouncements only serve to end discussion before it ever begins... ya might wanna think about that :think: if you are serious about engaging in discussion.

OTOH, if you LIKE the fact that people refuse to respond to your catalogued demands and refuse to deliver predetermined (by you) "justifications" which you have prefaced with "If You Do Not Reply I Can Only Determine That You Have Agreed To All These Misrepresentations And False Accusations."

That's the game, isn't it? I get it now..................................

:hi:

Except in the sense there's something wrong with Scots Gaelic or Cajun French = you can't get hired if you speak it.

That's all the statement was. Sometimes, things just are as they are and have no deeper roots. I feel for Biden here. Though I think he absolutely should've put more thought behind his comments, since in hindsight it is easy to see why some would look deeper into it as if having racial connotation where there wasn't one, I don't think he deserves the merciless character attacks he's been receiving when he meant his statement with complete innocence.

Ironic thing is, he's one of my least favorite Democrats. Always came across as a wishy washy bullshitter to me. But that doesn't mean he deserves this. He doesn't. I feel for him.

... The only remaining issue is whether or not people care. History says "no" - thus such racist comments are still made.

Biden meant to use the word articulate in a diminutive sense. Eloquence is one of Obama's strengths-so much so that it would be hard to comment on him without mentioning this. Bigot is one of the worst things you can say about someone. It is not a word to throw around lightly - unless you don't really care about bigotry.

Yet the denial runs deep and wide

.

... this is the sort of crying racism the world can do without.

Obama is articulate, period. He is articulate compared to most other men, be they white or black or brown. It is probably his most appealing attribute as a politician. What is wrong with making mention of it?

The "clean" comment, well you might have a point with that one. That's a little hard to understand.

I despise a racist as much as anyone, but like any other group of folks who get singled out for derision, I want to be sure that I've actually identified one before firing both cannons.

Oh, and BTW, Biden is an ass. I just doubt he's a racist.

You don't understand, people don't have to wear white sheets and attend KKK rallies to be racists. Nor do they even have to hate black people, or even intend a comment to be racist, yet it can be racist still.

Joe Biden doesn't hate black people, but he does have a stereotype in his head about black people, and his comment was based off of that.

Racist is being used way too much on this blog by everyone and in the wrong way. By doing this, you take the power away from naming someone a racist. Let me try in my humble words to make it clear on the difference.

If I think that all white people are members of the KKK, then I am prejudice. (against my own)

If I demean those different from myself or advocate the segregating of/not giving equal rights to/enslavement of/killing of people different from myself, then I am a racist. The use of the "N" word and other negative terms by a white definitely makes them a racist, saying someone is articulate (even as a code word) makes them prejudice. Now if one uses a code word to "put a person in their place", then they are racist/sexist/etc.

IMHO, The Biden thing needs to be used for enlightenment and put to rest soon before it becomes the main focus and other things are forgotten. The racist training of our military is much more scary to me these days. If and when this war ends, some of these young people are coming home with these prejudices and with the idea that it is okay to kill those that are of certain groups or perhaps even those they perceive to be different from themselves and thus a threat. Edited to add: Not to ignore what is being done in Iraq because of these taught prejudices also. I have seen enough films of soldiers laughing at the harming of innocents to know this is not a good thing, and I can only imagine what else is going on.

Flame away.

"hard-working", "academic", "good student", "great leader", "helpful", "cooperative", "honest", "friendly".

I am trying to come up with a list of compliments (!?/) that racists use to describe African Americans. These have to be words that truly are a compliment when applied to any other person in the human race.

Those of us who truly do not want to insult anyone, but may be behind the times in terms of what is currently considered offensive to various racial and ethnic groups, need to update our mental list of inappropriate compliments.

If you are like me and tend to have the linguistic skills of bush, then when I state someone is articulate, it is a compliment no matter who they are. But if I don't give that compliment to anyone other than someone with skin darker than myself, then I am saying that it is surprising that this person can speak in an intelligent manner. The "articulate" word is also used toward Latinos and other ethnic groups that speak English well.

It goes with all the other words as well, it is the context in which they appear and your use of them. If you say a Latino is "hard working" because you have the concept of them on the whole as being lazy, then you are prejudice and should be called on it. If you are an employer who states that your employee is a hard worker in a recommendation, then you are not.

I have hopped around with my foot in my mouth for most of my life, but the people that know me, know that when I make a mistake it is because I "just don't know any better". Just a little clue of when you (a white person) are being insulted. There are other clue words out there, but as whites we don't have to worry about them because only those like us have the power to practice true racism.

And I understand your point about context, but that seems to be an introspective judgment of my use of words. I may know whether I really meant "articulate" or "hard-working" as an honest complement or as a racist insult, but how will the people around me know. Particularly if I am, let's say, at an out of town conference where people don't really know the real me. I may mean something as a complement and have it be perceived as a racist insult, because I am behind the times.

Don't get me wrong. I know that I have to be extra careful, as a white, whenever I compliment or criticize someone from a different ethnic or racial group. That will not change in my lifetime and I accept that. It is just that at times I get bewildered by the number of sensitive words and the contexts in which they are use that can get me into trouble.

I think I understand you point about "only those like us have the power to practice true racism." We, whites, may not be the only ones with racist thoughts, but are the ones who have the power to put them into practice. I would agree that is true in the US, but what about Zimbabwe where Mugabe could be said to be a racist using the same definition.

:7 If you are somewhere where people don't know you, then use the terms appropriately. If someone is speaking at a conference, and you are unsure of what to say - nothing beats just being sincere in what you say and use words that you feel comfortable with. Most people will not take offense, but there are different levels of sensitivity among us all. You know I have come to the point that I try to be as careful as I can and be honest, and that is all I can do.

Some thirty odd years ago, I married a man from the Caribbean and I had to work through my own ignorance while learning about the different type of ignorance and racial problems that he had. I had two children who looked very different from myself, but not too different from my mother. White is a perception you see, just as other racial identities. Anyway, I had to raise my children to be proud of who they were and to not let what others thought or said destroy them. I don't know if I did such a good job, because although they survived the prejudices, they have real problems because of it. This is what I have to remember to know why this issue is important and others do need to be made aware of how certain things do matter, and you cannot "just get over it".
But again it worries me that prejudice and racism are being used interchangeably and that is not right. One can be forgiven for their prejudices because they are based on ignorance and there is hope for them to learn. One cannot be forgiven for racism, because this is done out of hate and feelings of superiority and are meant to hurt, damage, control, and minimize others. there is a difference between the two.

YES, racism CAN be forgiven. I find myself quite easily able to forgive it, in many cases. It has everything to do with accepting people in context for WHERE THEY ARE and acknowledging their (in)flexibility in making "exceptions."

Please indulge your Tante Karenina in another anecdote.

A "soul sister" invited me to her home in an "old money" sector of the DEEP SOUTH. Ah done knowed howa ACK, was properly "clean and dressed" and punctual in my entrance to the drawing room before dinner. Her mom (OLD OIL MONEY) was a hobby lepidopterist, which was obvious by the display cases. I spotted a rare specimen and insisted on a "tour" of her collection. Actually, she had quite a few rare specimens and was thrilled to have someone show such an interest. Before going to dinner she summoned an employee and told her to prepare HER guest room for me. My girlfriend had several rooms and we would have been happy to stay up all night and sleep on the floor as we had done in NYC.

I had to sleep a few hours there, as Mz. X had created a stir amongst her (all black) employees by ordering the room made up. It was HER WAY of "making an exception." It was HER WAY of acknowledging me as a HUMAN BEING who shared a common interest. It was also HER WAY of saying, this GIRL is NOT LIKE YOU. I had to handle the ambivalence.

IT WAS ALSO A CRACK IN HER WALL. We've spoken regularly over the years, me trying to track down her daughter, and I can feel how she has a soft spot in her heart for me, EVEN if, in her mind, I'M the "exception." I will never fault her for that. She's an incredible lady. I LOVE HER and I FORGIVE HER! But really WHAT'S TO FORGIVE?
Can anyone reading this understand me?

I have never walked in your shoes, but I have been very close to those who have, so I have an inkling of what you are saying. It is the accepting of the faults of someone because you in some way care about them and understand that they care about you - in their own way. I can't pass judgment on the woman or on you on this matter, but am aware of the position she put you in. I saw this happen with my ex-husband with many a white person. He was always their "one of the good ones", and this bothered me, but that may be because I am white and do not like the acceptance of this behavior by anyone.

On the other hand, I stayed married to this man for seventeen years and accepted his treatment of me for the same reasons. What he accepted in the outside world, he punished me for in the secrecy of the home. I loved him in spite of who he was and knew he loved me in spite of who he was. It was only when I learned to love myself and my children more than I cared about, and felt responsible for, him that I walked away from the marriage. I have never regretted the decision to divorce him in any way except for my financial problems since then and the mess he has made of his life. I would never go back to him, but I can't say that I still don't care about him in some ways, even though he continues to cause me problems. I forgive him over and over again, but do not forget who he is.

I have learned that just because someone loves you does not give them the right to treat you in a manner they would not want to be treated. Do you think this woman would accept the position she put you in? If not, then that is why there is something to forgive. This just my own humble opinion.

is a completely different dynamic. It's the nexus of racism and sexism. NO WAY would I have ever, in my youth, considered a connexion with ANYONE who exhibited the ME MAHN, YOU WO-MAHN consciousness. We West Indian girls were raised differently. Auntie S was the U.S. ambassador to Nigeria. Cousin C. was the "first" Federal judge. We girls aspired to equal those achievements. For some island men a white woman was considered the highest prize. They had NO INTEREST is us anyway and we were guided to avoid them.

PLEASE do not interpret this as any value judgement on your choices. Those yung'uns be so cute and I have nothing but respect for you in handling your relationship in the BEST WAY you found possible. I got 2 zebra kids too. :hug:

I required no epiphany from my friend's mom. She is who she is. I love her to this day.

He had a "me man", "you woman" attitude but that did not go with me either. He used the race card on me quite early on and often, always accusing me of thinking I was better than him. Our problem was not only sexism but also racism. It was "I am a poor mistreated man" and "you are a white bitch" for many years, while he played mind games and abused me. He lied like a dog to me and about me. He convinced me that I was alone and would not stand for me to have any friends. We lived in NYC and I was miles from ny family and although his family was good to me, the language barrier made it hard to form bonds. If you have ever seen the old movie "GasLight" you would understand what I went through with the mind games for around ten years.

When we moved to the Mid-west (I left him and he followed me) and to a mostly white area, it became "I am Dominican" and you are a "poor white trash bitch" or "you are a member of the KKK" depending on his mood. While I tried to protect him and my children from others, he made friends with those that abused us and became a member of the good ole boy club. My name was spoken in manners that were not polite, and I was blamed for doing all kinds of abuses to him that in truth he was doing to me. I lived in deep depression for years but when I broke out of it, he was surprised to find I could be as bad as he was. For two years I did everything to him that he had done to me for fifteen, except call him racial names or a bitch. He broke, and his family sent for him at my request.

He stayed gone for not quite a year and returned to harass me and try to stop the divorce. What a nightmare! But the funny part was yet to come. When the divorce was final and he began getting involved with the "wrong kind of people" and woman by the score, the same people who had hated me because of what he had told them, was calling me up begging me to get him under control. I told them that I was not his mother and if they wanted him taken care of they should do it themselves like they had done when we had been married. I left that area with my children and moved to a more diverse area, but he remained there and in his redneck group. Now, even though he is married again and I think she is more his type (prejudice redneck), he still laments the loss of our marriage and says he wishes I was still taking care of him. I smile - because he lies like a dog. B-)

My husband and I watched the SOTU (ouch, that was painful) after which, we watched the Democratic response and then several others being interviewed regarding the SOTU, including Clinton, Edwards, and Obama and some others I don't recall. It seemed that Obama had the most airtime, or perhaps I just perceived it that way.

My husband turned to me and said, "He is the only candidate who didn't say "Uuuuuuhh" even once. He is brilliant; he can really think on his feet". The hubby then said something to the effect that Sen. Clinton pauses constantly, and that even the reporters and new anchors seemed to be pausing, stuttering and using the word "Uuuuh" in front of their questions, but Obama did not do it once.

I can't really speak for my husband, but I will attempt it and offer his two points:
1. Edwards and Clinton seem to pause to look around for answers because perhaps they haven't given much previous thought or because they are rooting for the answer that will not get them in hot water.
2. Everyone who takes Speech 101 knows that sounding the Uuuuhh sound is a sign of an unsure or untrained speaker.

So what I need to know is this and here are your three options: Was my (brown-skinned) husband being racist by noting that Obama is an excellent public speaker who obviously listened to his Speech 101 professor or his Debate professor and learned to not say "Uh" during pauses (as is one of the most mentioned skills in public speaking classes) -- or was my husband being sexist by commenting on how Sen. Clinton pauses and says "Uh" too often and often seems like she is rooting around for answers or is not quite sure how to answer the question, or was my husband being anti-media by trashing the media-heads by mentioning that they pause and say "Uh" more than Sen. Obama? Which one was it? We need to be clear here as to whom my husband was offending by offering up a compliment.

I'm not defending Biden (Biden can go jump in a lake for a whole host of reasons) -- I am defending MY privilege to say that Barack Obama is a thoughtful and fantastic public speaker who thinks fast on his feet and answers with few pauses and without resorting to the dreaded sound "Uuuuuh" when asked questions by reporters - and that he is better in interviews than almost any other public figure I can think of at the present time.

So I want to know how we got to the point where we cannot say that Sen. Obama is better at something than almost anyone else on the planet (public speaking with or without a prepared speech) because we are afraid that the compliment will offend?

BTW, I think that Gladys Knight is one of the best singers who ever lived or ever will, but I'd better not say so lest it be perceived as offensive for some reason.

If your husband said this, it would be offensive. "He is the first black candidate who didn't say "Uuuuuuhh even once. He is brilliant; he can really think on his feet".

Do you see a difference?

:applause:

"by noting that Obama is an excellent public speaker". He knows that Obama is black and with that knowlege, intentionally characterized him in a way that is now accepted automatically as demeaning to African-Americans. Cut and dried, racist by definition.

You may not understand the subtle cues of racist code talk, but I have no problem in discerning them and never have. Your husband's remarks are almost exactly the Chris Rock skit, where the woman remarks on "how well" Colin Powell speaks, and the racist condescension of it is just so obvious.

I should also point out that your husband is "historically inaccurate" in saying that African-Americans don't speak well publically.

Additionally, in remarking to you that Obama had "obviously listened to his Speech 101 professor" he was showing a rather obvious surprise, which again implies directly that he believes African-Americans in general don't take school or education seriously. It seems your husband is patronizing to African-Americans in a number of ways.

And one last point. Your husband is more racist than Joe Biden, as Biden was being asked by reporters to comment on a range of candidates regarding, specifically, their political situation in the upcoming Democratic primary battle. He was responding to direct questions. Your husband, on the other hand, unsolicited and out of the blue simply had to remark, as if were odd and he was surprised, that an African-American politician trained in public speaking would be good at it.

You'll note that I changed the context of your question slightly in that I'm not saying your husband was "being racist" as you asked, which it is quite obvious he was, but that he IS a racist. A subtle difference to some, but you can't help but notice here on DU that Joe Biden wasn't just 'being racist' but that he 'is a' racist most of the time. I won't say that your husband is a "racist asshole" like they've been saying about Joe Biden. But he's obviously more racist than Biden based on his comments, so draw your own interpretation.



PS. Of course, your husband is no more a racist than Joe Biden is. Oh, and your husband's analysis pretty much matches my own where they overlap, which pretty much matches Joe Biden's where they overlap.

After all, if you or I admit to that, then to your point, by complimenting her it would indicate that we are surprised that she is/would be so skilled in vocal stylings...

Anyone who buys her CDs must be a racist or a sexist or making an anti-Pips statement of some kind.

I learn so much on DU.

/snark for TCB
(and yes Tactical Progressive was being snarky, too).

I'm putting the racist subtext of my remarks in brackets for those who don't know when to draw inferences or not. Only those with the most finely-tuned senses of race-dar are apparently able to discern that derogatory racism is there all the time, so I'll include the subtextual racism explicitly. That way there won't be any confusion for those without such highly-developed sensitivities, who may think it's only there sometimes.

I also think Martin Luther King was a great public speaker ((for a black man)).



I too am learning, TCB. Now that I understand, looking back, I see that everything I've ever said has been racist. I would have never known. Thank you DU.

Whatever. It's the American way!!!

I think older people have used that as a compliment for a long, long time.

It was admiration for a luckily educated person, not used as an insult at all.

Times sure have changed.... I think many are over analyzing the use of the word, myself.

give you carte blanche to ignore and blow off the painful experiences of "others" as just overanalyzing? :shrug:

:grr:

Over analyze, misinterpret, whatever. Have at it!

I think Biden meant that word as a compliment. Period.

in Stephanie's post #75.

My question was a sharp one. Please think over why it made you angry and get back to me. :hug:

or anybody else's for that matter, at having been called 'articulate'.

........ Yyyuh, I didn't think so.


The Biden-hating 'logic' around here is so full of shit it's unbelievable.

that all black people speak with an urban accent and use Ebonics.

to show surprise that they don't speak with heavy accents, use spanglish, or etc. It is patronizing and insulting if nothing more.

It is like a woman being complimented on her calmness in a tense situation, on her ability to handle money, do math, or be able to carry on a conversation about something other than family or house decorating/care.

It's a fucking compliment. PERIOD! End of story!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x125364

If this isn't the clearest explanation yet then I don't know what is.