With Permission... And With (My) TOTAL Agreement...

"We've never wavered, even in 2006. The stance and the message has been consistent and principled - recognizing there's a solemn DUTY to justice, the Constitution, and future generations. I've never known or heard of a coward or an outlaw who didn't regard themselves as a "pragmatist" - who didn't argue against principle for some perceived future advantage. Personally, I don't want to live in a nation or a world where such 'pragmatism' holds sway - where we're dissuaded by some crystal ball gazing calculus from doing the Right Thing.

Realism and pragmatism clearly have value in the selection of tactics, but the choice of whether or not to proceed MUST be based on duty, honor, and integrity. We should never let the lives we live be separate from the words we speak. Those words, inscribed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, are clear. We cannot passively tolerate the continued corruption and criminality of this cabal of autocrats and kleptocrats. They must be IMPEACHED!"

TahitiNut - Most wise and honorable DUer.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1273420

Defend the other all ya want... but please don't forget...

those that preached "pragmatism" as they and their fellow beings were scythed for purposes of conquest, were "reasoned" BUT WRONG!!!

History will be the final judge, and I say we Impeach!

:shrug:

that somehow doing so is what will change things. It will serve little more than something for Democrats to celebrate. As much as I think they deserve the impeachment, the things already put in place and systemic throughout every single branch of government are far deeper and long living then what an impeachment process will grant.

In the end, impeachment will do little more but give fodder for the next election cycle, whether good or whether bad. But it isn't going to be this huge pendulum swing that helps bring our democracy back in order. In fact, I can't help thinking it will do very little to change our dire fate as it stands whatsoever. I think that's what the idealists fail to ascertain: That impeachment in the end of it all might even make things worse.

What we need to do as a country and as a society, from education to awareness to electoral processes, is going to be far more pain staking, require FAR more time and far more patience than impeachment will bring.

cooperation is a bad idea.

It will not change the world - but it will mean the crimes did not go un-noticed.

You are a pragmatist. And pragmatically, you may well be proved to be right.

I prefer Patriot, and my understanding of the U.S. Constitution does not look quietly on such philosophical compromise.

:shrug:

I'm not saying for a second that they don't deserve it or that even necessarily that I don't think we should do it.

Instead, I'm referencing more the mindset of some that think it is so necessary to save our democracy and constitution, and that how somehow this act will mean so much towards healing the wrongs.

I challenge those that think in such ways to state exactly what it is they think the realistic and beneficial real world outcome will be for such a thing. Yeah yeah yeah, it means they're held accountable blah blah. But look at the damage already caused? Even if they were impeached they'd be laughing their asses off at us while counting their millions and continuing to plot behind the scenes as effectively as when they were in office. The problem is far deeper and prevalent than those we can impeach in any near future. So I'd wager I'm on far more realistic, rational and open minded footing in saying that impeachment, if anything, can only serve to perpetuate the evils of partisanship that we've already seen before us. And accountability? Do you really think they'd care? You really think that would mean we won somehow and they didn't? I'm not being pragmatic by posing these questions, just simply intelligent and objective.

What exactly do these 'protect the constitution! Impeach now!' group actually think is going to suddenly change? We have far harder work to do over a far longer course of time than impeachment. In fact, impeachment could have opposite consequences of advancement for our mission. So it's more a matter of a proper strategy in what we need to do first in this long hard battle we face. In my opinion that's a no brainer: It's taking back the media and using every power in our souls to start the long road back to a media that tells the people the truth. Do I know how? Nope. But I know that's where our energy should be. Impeachment will do NOTHING to slow the constant destruction of freedom as we know it and will only give us some false notion to pat ourselves on the backs with. A false victory, so to speak.

Do you feel otherwise? Do you think that after impeaching them something will magically change through all branches of government that would give us reason to believe the system, our future, and the world, still isn't fucked?

My narrow mind would also appreciate your thoughts on this:

One year after the publication of his book The Imperial Presidency, Arthur Schlesinger wrote the following for a column in Harpers:



:shrug:

And with regards to "narrow-minded idealism", as opposed to... say... open-minded pragmatism???

I'd prefer to take my soul with me in fighting for victory, instead of selling it in hopes of achieveing victory.

:shrug:

But taking NO Constitutional steps and, by avoiding impeachment, tacitly condoning the corruption and criminality assures far worse in the near future.

I personally do not believe we'll rid ourselves of the corruption without shedding blood in the streets. Lots of it. But I'm damned sure advocating that we try. Impeachment is the first step. Ideally, the ultimate imprisonment of at least two dozen senior criminals in this cabal is warranted.

These people (and I use the term in its broadest sense) claim the privilege of serving as our nation's leaders, yet they wish to abrogate their first responsibility, to uphold The Constitution.

The very idea that we should not do absolutely everything in our power to stop the outrageous crimes taking place every day because of this coup, is an obscenity on a scale I never thought I would see in my lifetime, and the fact that so many do not recognize the terrible consequences of this inaction is stunning.

Once again TahitiNut has concisely identified the heart of the issue. Thank you.

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
- Thomas Jefferson

(That probably applies to people of questionable conscience, too.)

things we are trying to do - the minimum wage got passed in a cave on timelines on the Iraq funding bill.

There is nothing to be gained by letting the GOP run out the clock with our only talking point for Nov 08 being the majority was not large enough to get anything done.

would be a disaster. A vindication of his policies and abuses. A Republican rallying point for 2008. Endless I told you so's that it wasn't really torture, that he did have the right to wiretap without warrants.

If you could get the votes in the House, I would be all for it, but knowing our narrow majority includes 88 Blue Dogs and New Dems, I suspect we would be lucky to get 190 votes at this moment in time.

Bringing a vote in the House knowing you would get your ass kicked and thus vindicate Bush and Cheney would be the stupidest political move I have seen in my half century of observing foot shootings.

I do agree with you that there is little to get accomplished except to send bill after bill to be filibustered or vetoed and investigate everything. Keep their feet to the fire. If anything comes up to move the Blue Dogs and New Dems to favor impeachment, Pilosi will put it back on the table so fast it will make our heads spin.

can be overcome via some serious heart to heart with the 88 Blue Dogs and New Dems.

After all the evidence of all the crimes that they've committed gets presented before the country, the American people would NOT have any sympathy for them. Their popularity would not go up. On the contrary, I think the people would be upset with Congress for not impeaching them.

... "New Democrat Coalition," they total fewer than 88 total because there are members of both coalitions. Jane Harmon (C) and Mike McIntyre (NC) and Loretta Sanchez (CA) and David Scott (GA) and Adam Schiff (CA), for example.

So much for "nose-counting." :shrug: