About the Shehan thing...

and not posting about it on here. I am a faithful member of this site because I feel that many on here share my views. Just as I no longer pledge allegience to the U.S. or stand for the National Anthem...I do not pledge loyalty to the Democratic party. I do pledge to support people...regular people who stand for the right thing. Cindy Shehan stands for the right thing and has been. I personally find it...well it pisses me off that anyone on here would oppose her running against Pelosi if she thinks she could do a better job. The Democrats are way, way better than the idiot Republicans, however a lot of them are too beholden to politics to stand the fuck up and do the right thing. I have always thought of the Democratic party as way more in line with my way of thinking than the Corporate Republicans but I do not vow allegience to them. In fact if Gore runs..I think his best bet is as something new...an independent and then we just might all have to start to think about what we call ourselves.

but I saw the move it post and it pissed me off. Did I fall to a troll? If I did I apologize, but if not my post stands.

Love your Country, Fear your Government...

If you do not pledge allegiance to the US, who DO you PLEDGE to? Just curious.

I took an oath to 'defend this nation from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.'

THEY do not OWN the Flag!!! WE OWN THE FLAG!!! All of us!



on edit: and you might want to spell her name correctly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cindy_Sheehan

my cat....and no one or nothing else. I am a citizen of the world and a good one...no need to feel special because of where I was born or where I live.

That must get big laughs at the airport. Do you have a photo ID from there?

I was on yesterday or is this a nightmare. Did someone switch this to Free Republic all of the sudden?

Some of us actually don't consider that being an American makes us any better than anyone else.

Americans aren't the only life on the planet. They just act like they are.

Lee

you might appreciate it. From July 4th:

"Peace is Patriotic" is the perfect oxymoron.



full essay: http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A156579

:wow:

It could be 'blah=blah-blah-blah,' but it's been sung over the graves of patriots. NO ONE OWNS the National Anthem.

is to inspire NATIONALISM. That's about as political as it gets. That you think you have to make a choice between two parties has nothing to do with it.

was a tribute to a war we fought primarily to steal yet more land from the Native Americans.

When we sing that song, we're honoring imperialism and exploitation.

Have you renounced your citizenship or turned in your passport?

:shrug:

Of course, you have to have a reasonable intellect and an ability to parse, but it actually IS possible. Many clever folk have done it--a lot of them were our founders, who didn't always agree on everything, but they did agree that they loved this land.

Sheesh. Loving your country is NOT mindless "nationalism." It's THINKING nationalism, if anything, in many cases. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just because stupid people do it too, doesn't mean that they own it. Hell, stupid people EAT---does that mean we should all starve, so we can be unlike them?

But I guess it's cool to be snarky and shitty about this place--people who got to live here all their lives, I notice, are the worst; the most insulting about the USA. Those of us who lived elsewhere, where the living wasn't so easy, for much of our lives, take a different perspective. I don't go along with that childish "Hate America" crap. There's a lot wrong, but there is a lot RIGHT about this place, too. We're diverse, we're tolerant, we've got many strengths; strengths drawn from around the globe. We aren't a bunch of lockstep jerks. It's sometimes way too easy to JUST see the bad, and ignore the good.

I like to step back and see the big picture every now and again. The big picture is that, for all of our "issues," this is a great land, and many of our citizens are great people.

And this bullshit with the Monkey, it, too, will pass.

If I feel more loyalty for the poorest sections of world society, from all nations, than I do with the richest Americans, what the fuck does that make me?

Or, if you took citizenship, that makes you an American.

I assume your question was a bit rhetorical, but I will expound nonetheless.

Other countries don't offer that "Born here, you're one of us" option.

Japan is one that's particularly shirty about it, especially if you're the wrong complexion or hue.

See, in America you have the freedom to hate the joint, and even to think the rest of us are assholes. All that is up to you.

You're free to knock yourself out, preferring other lands, other peoples, criticizing your fellow citizens, and it still makes no difference as far as your citizenship goes. A lot of people around the world envy us that ability to gripe the way we can about how our nation is run, populated, whatever. And not lose our rights as a consequence.

Now, if you WANT to leave, you can. If you want to renounce your citizenship, you have to jump through a few hoops to do it--you've got to knowingly sign it away.

No one is forcing you to stay if your citizenship is weighing on you in a negative way. But by the same token, no one is forcing you to renounce it either, just because you don't happen to like being an American lately.

It's up to you--entirely. You control your destiny. Not the government. But you've got to take active hold of your fate and make a decision to apply to another country for citizenship (and hope they'll take you--and many won't), if you don't want to be an American any longer.

So I guess, what that makes you, is what you CHOOSE to be. If you don't apply for citizenship in another country, though, and renounce your US citizenship, you're still an American. Even if you hate being one--but you can change that if you really want to....

I don't Like NOR dislike being an American, I'm NEUTRAL on the issue. The point I was trying to make is that I'm not anti-American, I'm UnAmerican, at least in attitude. See, I'm committing the great crime of not thinking that my nation is any better or worse than any other nation on the planet of equivalent power.

In other countries, sure. Try taking that attitude in North Korea. You'll enjoy the reeducation, if you live through it.

But you err when you assume that people here in the US, by and large, care that much, one way or another, about your "neutrality." Go on, knock yourself out!!!!

What offends is when people insult others for LIKING being a part of this country, and suggesting that their feelings are somehow unworthy. That's the "great crime"--it's a great crime of intolerance, actually.

More people have died due to God/King/Country than for any other human made reason in the entire world. I view Patriotism in the same manner as Racism.

Just because you fear the brainwashing aspect doesn't mean that others do. And just because you regard those feelings like you do racism doesn't mean that others take the same, rather twisted, viewpoint.

I don't consider my love of country "dangerous" at all. I can look at my country on the one hand, its histories and traditions, its diverse populations, the many citizens who have contributed to bettering the world, and feel a pride of association. I can also, with the same eyes, look at, and criticize politicians and industrialists and others who are greedy assholes.

I don't have any problem at all parsing, distinguishing, or separating.

And I give most Americans credit for being able to do the same. I don't think I'm the only one by any stretch who can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I guess I simply have more faith in the essential goodness, by and large, of my fellow citizens than you do.

I would never belittle the accomplishments of others by taking them in as my own. I take pride in nothing that I did not take part in, I'm not born with an innate amount of "pride" due to where I was born. That's simply foolish, nor do I believe I carry any pride or shame from ancestors. The concept of collective pride is stupid, to be frank, and quite selfish as well. Stand on your own two feet, I say, don't try to stand on the backs of others and claim you reached that height on your own.

ON EDIT: To bring my point home, is there a difference between the sentiment: "Proud to be American" and the sentiment "Proud to be White"?

feels like, because you, plainly, have never experienced it.

You can't crawl into the skins and heads of those who don't share your view, because you plainly don't understand it. Just because YOU don't take pride in things you don't take part in doesn't mean that others are on your wavelength. Some people have a sense of history, a sense of continuity, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. If no one gave a shit about the past, you'd not have to learn history in school. You wouldn't know about the backgrounds of other peoples, other cultures, and how they contributed to making this land great, because we'd all be living in the Happy Present and no one would give a shit about the past.

It's not "simply foolish" either. Nor is it stupid or selfish.

The comparison of love of country, to include history and traditions, to racism is invalid. Racism is a force that divides, love of country unites. But it apparently is your lightly considered justification for scorning it. I'm guessing that Native Americans are glad there weren't more bastards who thought like you running things when they were shoved onto reservations, otherwise ALL of their cultural heritage would be eradicated because their pride in their backgrounds and nations is racist and invalid, per your assessment.

You don't happen to like people who love their country. Fine. You prefer to insult them, and not acknowledge any validation for their feelings, because that's not YOUR view (count the number of times you used "I" or some variation of the word in your post--it's a LOT), your feelings, your views, your opinions. You've every right to them, shallow though they may be, as I have every right to mine.


I do think your views are neither liberal or progressive, frankly.

But this is America, and you're free to hold those intolerant opinions. Fortunately, I am also free to disregard them!

if there were "more bastards who thought like (him) running things" since they wouldn't have been shoved onto reservations to begin with.

The other bastards who actually were running things at the time didn't work out so well for them, if I recall. Those patriotic white dudes in charge (the ones the Native Americans were so lucky to have) stole their land, then outlawed native religious ceremonies, mandated that Native American children were taken away from their families, and put them into English speaking boarding schools, where native languages and cultural traditions were forbidden.

"love of country, to include history"

Such a thing to be proud of. I wish we actually DID teach history, instead of propaganda.

why should love stop at the border?

We've got representation from all corners of the globe. And our immigration policies aren't nearly as onerous as those of some so-called progressive countries, either--even if they aren't perfect.

Love doesn't have to stop at the border, either. In order to love your country, there's no requirement established that you must hate other countries--unless, of course, you live in North Korea.

"But I guess it's cool to be snarky and shitty about this place--people who got to live here all their lives, I notice, are the worst; the most insulting about the USA."

with opposing points of view, I don't really see the point of such sentiments.

Others have a different view.

That's what makes America so special--all of these differing opinions.

That's how you define intolerance? That pointing out where the insults directed towards people who happen to love their country are coming from is...intolerant?

Ohhhkay...that's a real cake-taker.

"Why God bless America? Why not God bless everybody?" -- Zinn

And no one will haul you off to a reeducation camp for thinking differently.

Enjoy it.

that would be China who owns us and to whom we have been sold.

There's quite a few of them that aren't Top O' The Charts on the Tolerance for Difference scale.

If we were truly sold to China, though, we'd know it. We're merely rented at this stage.

and tolerant than Bush's America. I'm sorry, MADem. I just don't have a nationalistic bone in my body. And "love of country" doesn't mean as much to me as it seems to mean to you.

No one in this country will force you to. That's for North Korea and elsewhere.

I certainly don't expect people to share my views. I just think a little tolerance and diversity are in order, is all. I have to say, I just find this shitty, textbook, almost "South-Parkian-cartoon-liberal" insulting of people who do love their country, that is sprinkled throughout this thread, rather amazing. I don't direct this comment at you, mind.

It's just so...intolerant!! And it's coming from so-called progressives, too. Like it's an uncool sin or something....an opportunity for superior, self-satisfied snark and mockery. It's rather unbecoming on a Democratic site, frankly.

I suppose if you lived in a country where people were hanged every week in the public square for bullshit infractions, the good parts of the US might have more meaning for you. All views, along with politics, are local, I guess.

You don't share the same view, and that's all well and good in the good ole USA...!

for a year in a goatshack, so repression is pretty real to me. I'm sorry if I've been grumpy. Time to walk the puppy.

Or you wouldn't have much of an argument to fall back on.

I've been a seaman pretty much all of my life and pretty much every country I've ever been to had plenty of people unafraid to bitch about how their government ran their country.

Americans don't have a monopoly on dissent. Don't think that for a minute.

cultures practice dissent.

are you sure you got the spelling right?

They might have renamed it after the Shah left. I wouldn't be surprised if they named it after the Ayatullah.

She does not have to pledge allegiance to ANYTHING except her own conscience. I am a World Citizen myself. ...BUT you can't make me leave the US. It's where I reside and I don't have a passport. What are you...the Pledge Police?
Lee

No, I'm not the pledge police. I'm just wondering what the point of citizenship is? Are you aware of the oath that naturalized citizens make:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

What is the oath for world citizens?

accordingly. The actions are what count, not an oath.

As far as I know, you can't register as a Citizen of the World. A thought is NOT a fact!

I haven't participated in that fucking joke since I returned from SE Asia.

I pledge allegiance to me and nothing else.

Good food and shopping? Our excellent university system? Our freedom, and our (mostly) functioning democracy? The freedom and democracy that so many have given their lives for since the dawn of this nation? Yeah, that's so, you know, 1776. You're much too JADED and WORLDLY to believe in THAT corny bullshit, huh?

But I have a fall-back in Costa Rica should things go to hell here.

And about that fighting for democracy and freedom thing...
I am one of the most decorated enlisted men in US Navy history (69-72) SEAL Team 3, stationed with 3rd Marine, Quang Tri, Laos and southernmost N Vietnam.

As for good food and shopping, I never have to leave my wonderful little town (Tiburon, CA). I don't need anything else.

And I do not have any opinions on university, being a high-school dropout and making it own my own and by my own wits for my entire life.

I do not need this country or its government.

I have me.

I am absolutely baffled. Sorry.

I will get back to you in a couple of days, for I am heading to the airport (ugh) right now.

I would like to explain how I feel to you.

Tom

it makes perfect sense to me. :)

"too cool" attitude is just immature posturing, IMO.

For all the faults of the Founding Fathers (who might have had fewer faults had there been a few Founding Mothers more prominently displayed in the mix) they came up with a good system, which, thus far, has stood the tests of a number of assholes, to include this latest one in the White House.

I have hope that the future will be better. Some don't. That's their problem, I guess.

my country, right or wrong. insert jingoist bullshit rahrah slogan here.

Why can't you love it, and fix it? Why must you leave it? Why must you hate it if you see things that are wrong with it? Is perfection a prerequisite for love of country?

Why do you assume that people who LOVE their country share those "jingoistic" views? It's almost as though you think anyone who DARES to love America is a stupid, mouth breathing asshole. And that's a pretty damned dumb assumption to make about anyone, IMO. And an unfair one, too.

I don't think anyone here is of the "My country, right or wrong" mindset. That was a pretty cheap shot.

Of course, you have to actually think about the GOOD to appreciate this place. Nowadays, it is easier to think about the bad.

I've lived in countries that didn't offer the protections this place does. That didn't have the strength and diversity of this land. Even at its worst, this place is still better than a lot of places where I've hung my hat.

I wouldn't tell anyone to leave if they didn't love the joint. I do think that people who don't like the place have a right to that viewpoint, but I also think they should lay off insulting people who feel differently--it's just a childish thing to do.

I never understood the "Patriot" mindset, I find it difficult to be so dominated by an atlas that you must proclaim love for a particular political entity.

That's why so many come here and take citizenship. Because the level of freedom we enjoy here is the most important thing to them.

I daresay if you were born in Iran, or a number of other repressive nations, and living there now, you might find something to like about this place. BushCo notwithstanding. By the same token, you might cry in longing for the land of your birth, even if you couldn't live there because it was so repressive. The people who come here and take citizenship do it after weighing the good and the bad. And yet, they still come.

It's just counterproductive, and revealing, really, though not in a good way, when insults are thrown at people for loving their country.

I sense a sort of insecurity whenever I see that kind of stuff; the old "too cool to like the US" attitude. They wouldn't toss the same insult at someone who longs for the lost land of Armenia, I'm guessing.

No one is FORCING anyone to feel the same way, but why insult people who do have that view? It's just...well, cheesy. Childish. And dumb.

What is anyone tossing that kind of crap trying to prove? That they're too "cool" to like being a US citizen? I happen to like it, otherwise I wouldn't be here enjoying it. I don't really care if others don't like it, that's their choice, but I can't see any utility or maturity in making fun of people with a different view. I really can't.

:shrug:

Also, you must understand, I NEVER have "felt" patriotism, I thought it was weird, especially the attitudes of fellow Americans. This sense of innate superiority over all other human beings on the planet is simply abhorrent to me. I see it displayed in this very thread, and really, I don't see a difference between it or the Nationalism displayed by fascists in ages past.

And loved living in both of them...

I thought you were just comparing us to a 3rd world country because, at the present time, its only compared to 3rd world countries that we even come out as any better.

emigrated to Argentina, and lived there for 7 years to become an Argentine citizen, JUST so he could THEN emigrate to America, since America was reaching its "quota" of Italians. He sent for his family, and my grandfather came through Ellis Island as a 9-year-old. And thus I am here. All because a man and his wife wanted DESPERATELY to become Americans. The day I stop appreciating what it took for them to come here and build a new life, and why they wanted so very much to be a part of this country, is the day I am no longer worthy of being an American citizen.

Since the dawn of history, human beings have migrated from one place to another for opportunity or freedom, or a combination of both. My question to you is would you begrudge an American family making the same choice for basically the same reasons if they leave?

Why didn't they just move to France? Or Ireland? They wanted to be Americans, they wanted their children and grandchildren to be Americans--it was not just a matter of picking up and leaving for new digs, or a better job--it was a scheme, and a sacrifice, that was years in the making. You said you didn't get patriotism, and I am trying to convey to you just how much this "piece of dirt", these "lines on a map" have meant to so many.

America. The fact is that the United States was born on a land of natives who were sparsely populated, and never a large threat, and other nations that were comparatively weak with a large amount of land between them. This lead to unprecedented prosperity and stability for the nation, more out of luck than anything humans did. The United States was created in what could be the winning lotto number in the geographic lottery. Many natural resources, few enemies, and isolated from the great powers by two oceans.

Pledging allegiance to a RWer who has people combining the crucifix with the American flag is NOT American - and I am not part of that country. Are you??

Does not pledging mean you renounce it? Is it not possible to be a USA citizen AND a world citizen? WTF is the matter with you?

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

What country doesn't have an oath of citizenship that requires some allegiance. Here's Canada's just in case you'd ever consider going there:

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful
and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty
Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada,
Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully
observe the laws of Canada
and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen

I was born in the USA, am a USA citizen. If I never pledge allegiance, I am still a citizen. You only have to say that to become a naturalized citizen, and then never ever ever again.

...and I will not. I am not some kind of little automaton. I pledge an allegiance to justice and fairness and mercy and to all life on the entire planet.

My mother was in Daughters of the Mayflower and I have women on both sides of my family in DAR. (Blech) MY people have been here for 100s of years. THIS is my old country in that I live here and I love certain things about it. ...but I bow before NO ONE and I don't make little idiot Girl Scout pledges about where my loyalty lies. Do you hold up your widdle hand too? I pledge allegiance to certain VALUES AND ETHICS, not to any border drawn on a map.

So tough shit to the flag thumpers. You can't make me pledge an allegiance to the flag or to the country....nanananana... What wannabe fascists... I will even burn the god damned flag if I want to. No paper...not even the Constitution...is sacrosanct. If something's broke...fix it or fuck it.

Some of you people talk about this country with a kind of juvenile reverent awe. Grow up. This land was built by the stolen blacks on the dead backs of the indigenous folk. We're conquerers and imperialists. I think we have it in us to be much better but if not...screw us because we will deserve it...BEFORE WE DESTROY THE ENTIRE GOD DAMNED WORLD.

Americans aren't the only life on the planet. They just act like they are.

Lee

But supporting third party candidates over Democrats has always been against the rules. Witness the Lieberman ruckus. I would be disappointed if application of the rules of the board depended on whether the admins liked the Independent or not.

I thought WE were a lot better than this.

:grouphug:

and glad you said it. :thumbsup:

Welcome to DU, Marano35!

Better late than never

and loved every minute.

... if this is a bad thing is if Repubs try to secretely funnel money to her.

And I don't think we'd be where we are now if Cindy hadn't been so brave.

How silly of me.

Before Cindy started making news, the rest of us pro-peace folks were ignored ~ including the families of the troops. Have some respect.

if not ridiculed - by the maladministration and the M$M. I guess I've missed all the good news about how we've made a hugh (!) difference.
9 troops killed the last 2 days and god knows how many innocent Iraqis. What exactly is the upside?

Rather than in lock-step with the lunatics who started it. You can thank Cindy and other gutsy people like her for what little coverage dissenters were able to get in the early days.

In the 'early days' (even before the illegal invasion) there were millions of Americans and citizens of many countries who tried to tell the BFEE Cabal it was wrong. There weren't that many in 'lockstep' with the criminals...a big chunk of the populace just didn't much give a shit. Once it happened, natural instinct kicked in and a lot of people who should have known better went along to get along. Few people were willing to admit they'd been had by con artists...rape victims are another subset of people who're ashamed to admit they were taken.

Look, I think Cindy is absolutely a gutsy lady but I don't think she really helped the anti-war cause in any meaningful way. Losing 3,600 American lives is a far more effective way to reach people. She's a good lady but the honest truth is just that she doesn't come across to most people (who after all, are what we have to rely on) as particularly competent.
Losing a son is horrible but it does not automatically confer expertise or statesmanship on someone.

he does not define the Democratic party to me.

Al Gore is a lifelong Democrat, his father was a lifelong Democrat, and his father's father was a lifelong Democrat. Al Gore will NOT run as an Independent. Al Gore will NOT abandon the Democratic party. It's a waste of time to even ponder it. It's as irrational as thinking that he's some sort of savior, but there's a lot of irrational thoughts around here these days.

Not to mention insulting to those told to do so.

Jeebus

Already recommended.
Lee

This is the DEMOCRATIC Underground...not a generic, left-wing political website.

And it's SHEEHAN.

But, eh...whatever.

how ungrateful for the contributions and the sacrifices so many have made to make us the greatest nation on earth--not just Presidents, statesmen, and soldiers, but immigrants, slaves, working joes, rosie-the-riveters. You have the right not to pledge allegiance, burn the flag, sneer at the national anthem, whatever--because people worked, and fought, and died for you to have that right. Sorry, but I think you should be ashamed.

I have uncles and friends who have died in Wars that this country participated in. Some of those wars were justified and some were not. I love this country and by that I mean the people of this country...even though the majority are to disinterested to actually participate in this thing we used to have called democracy. I hope that the majority of our people will get educated and realize that this country is about "we the people" and not flags, songs and the belief that God blessed America...it is about "we the people" and when one of us stands up like Cindy Shehan and speaks the truth...fuck the politics and the Patriotism they want us to believe in...it is about "we the people" and she is one of us much more than any professional politician.

were storming Omaha and Utah beach our Presidents grandfather was making the family fortune by selling war materials to the Nazi's, and thats how its been going every since, and they are usually the loudest and the proudest with the patriotism bullshit. I hope that I am the last in my family to serve in our military and if I get my way that is exactly how it will be until "we the people" are in charge again.

and I have generations behind me who served too.

I don't feel the way you do, though.

Military service is what it is. No one forced you to do a full career that earned you a retirement check on the first of every month. It doesn't advance your arguments.

You have opinions, and that's fine. But your military service doesn't make your opinions more valuable or meaningful.

Oh, and again, it is SHEEHAN. If you like the woman so much, you need to learn how to spell her name. It's basic respect.

but my message stands...if she ever mispells my name it will be alright, a rose by any other name is still a rose....ah who wrote that?

Your message is your opinion, and that's fine. But it isn't the only opinion in the world...

It just happens to be mine. Glad you served too. Sorry that we did it for a lot less of of our country than we thought we did though. If you don't understand that statement, I understand, sorry.

to a career military man, and I fiercely love not just our people, but our Constitution, our form of government, our history, and our way of life--to me, a good Democrat IS a Patriot, who deeply appreciates those things (and gets very angry at what ChimpCo has done to undermine them). And I believe that a very good way to demonstrate that appreciation is to pledge allegiance, and stand for the anthem--that is my public statement of my love and respect for this nation. Whenever I am at an event, and the flag goes up and the anthem is played, my soul is stirred, and I hope it always is. Thank you for your service--I hope you realize that even if you don't feel the need to pay tribute in that way, many of your fellow Americans are reminded of the service of veterans like you when they hear that song and say those words, and it reinforces the idea for us that freedom is not free, to use a worn-out but true expression.

and I am glad it was mine and others and not yours. We did it for you, or at least I did, and your disagreement with me does not diminish that. Your probably a good woman and I respect you, I have just put a lot of thought into the way I feel in the last ten or so years and that is my right. You keep being a good person and a good American, and remember that it is all about people like you.

They have to do double duty, be mother AND father to the kids, keep the family stuff together, are often left to move and do EVERYTHING on their own, and it isn't an easy job. By any stretch.

I think their "asses are on the line" every day. It's just in a different way. They may not get killed, but they are the ones who have to pick up the pieces if their active duty wife or husband gets killed. Or maimed--they get to be permanent nurse to a wounded spouse.

And that's no picnic.

They also serve. They're part of a team.

:patriot:

I really feel for the spouses of the Guard and Reservists--many of them haven't had the 'trial by fire' accompanied by the support of others that the active duty spouses get in the course of a few years, deployments, and so forth. I really think it's a crime how badly they've been neglected. They deserve more support than they are getting these days.

Cheers backatcha...!

when you aren't part of the active-duty "system". Awful what those poor spouses are going through, with their normally "civilian" husbands and wives going on their second/third LONG deployment to Iraq/Afghanistan. My husband deploys every other year, but has shorter deployments, so I can't bitch, but sometimes I like to anyway!

paradigm enabled them to...they'd affiliate with a unit that was as much as six to ten hours away, and go to their drills with their buddies in a carpool. No biggie...of course, that was the OLD days for those guys, back when they could actually advance in those civilian jobs and be "part time" in the military.

Now, the reality is that they are gone for way too long, and their spouse is often an hour or ten from getting support services from their unit's admin offices. I'm sure there are way too many of them who aren't getting all of the support they need and deserve.

This is a serious question. Didn't you have to pledge some kind of allegiance when signing on to the military?

To those who've worn the Uniform, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

"greatest nation in the world" by what standard, and by who's authority?

This is the first time I've heard that slaves worked and fought and died cause they wanted me to have rights. They were slaves! I'd be ashamed to make a claim like that, personally.

It's good to remember most of the people who sacrifice so we can be the ... the greatest, did you say? nation on earth ... never were/aren't US citizens.

Greatest. Good grief. Is that what the good folks of Iraq told you? Or Japan? Or Haiti? Or Somalia? Or India? Or any of the countries feeling the effects of our gross consumerism?

they were the economic engine of the South at one time, and their experiences and their suffering are a part of our national fabric, and I will recognize them. You don't have to give a crap about America, but I do.

one of many.

I just never heard anyone claim that we should be patriotic because our country got rich by exploiting and torturing people. It's a unique viewpoint, I'll give you that.

We still get rich doing that. I wonder if that should make me even more patriotic.

exploiting and torturing 1-1000 people = hatred of country
exploiting and torturing 1001-100,000 people = apathy toward country
exploiting and torturing 100,001-1,000,000 people = mild affection for country
exploiting and torturing 1,000,001-100,000,000 = strong feelings of patriotism

yeah, I don't think I'm quite there, mentally.

whether willingly or not and despite the odds eventually made a good life for themselves and for us. There were plenty of individual accomplishments, lots of people from many different back rounds and cultures fought hard and even died for rights and achieved them, many of which we continue to enjoy today, and we can certainly celebrate that.

Me too.

to vote for her, to vote for Pelosi, to vote for anybody on their ballots or write somebody in.

To me, the debate about those individual rights is separate from DU Admins' rights to their rules. There was much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth earlier because of supposed unfair "treatment" at DU -- you'd think all of a sudden this website had wiped out the first amendment and sent us all into a new form of cyber-dictatorship.

I just think it's worth remembering sometimes that this is a private website, not a public utility.

what about pricipal, truth is all that matters.

Principles and truth are important, yes. :shrug:

that alleges to support the priciples we all subscribe to should never edit or oppose free thought as long as it is not just clearly ignorant shit, like that spewed by the ignorant. If it's intelligence and not drivel...O'reilly, Limbaugh and their ilk it should be tolerated..thats what we preach against.

And you can take it up with the admins if you want to. I'm not arguing the "shoulds" -- what the rules "should" be... I'm just pointing out that we don't have any guaranteed right to make them.

It just doesn't get any more ignorant than that. That's like trying to kill your enemy by jumping on your own sword.

This is the DEMOCRATIC Underground. Not the Generic Left Underground, not the Green Underground, not the Libertarian Underground. That's part and parcel of the rules. And the rules aren't a "pick, choose and refuse" exercise.

The site is moderated, and there are rules. They say that straight up.

It's about NOT supporting a third party running against the Democratic nominee. Nothing is stopping anyone from starting their own message board in favor of her.

Great gal, she wuz ROBBED by that baastid Li'l Sununu.

Heck,Cindy will join the Green Party and radical types who are out in San Francisco trying to get rid of Pelosi already. Those people fail to present a valid nominating petition for most of the races they take on. Most of the times when they can come up with a petition its because Republicans paid a contractor to circulate it for them. Cindy is no threat to Nancy Pelosi.

What has me worked up is that Cindy is riling up the dump the Democrats movement all across America. This same logic cost us the presidency in 2000. We are now faced with a potential GOP/Fascist threat. The GOP openly advocates a one party system and an end to any legal control over them at all. The only institution that can save us is the Democratic Party. Cindy can do some serious damage to America with her senseless crusade.

and abolition and gay rights? Those radicals? :wow:

Go ask Chuck Schumer what he has in store for your salvation. And be sure to take your checkbook with you. And your own pen.

The kind of radicals who disagree with everything and want to destroy anything that competes with them for public attention.

I don't think you'll find many stronger advocates for gay or women's right than Nancy Pelosi. The crowd out in San Francisco wants to take her out.

over Dr. Dean for DNC Chair.

We're not a little mob here. We're the same people who worked to get her elected. And we remember that if she doesn't. :)

who do all they can to keep Democrats from getting elected. I'm not saying you are in the mob, but there is a mob. Nancy didn't support your choice for DNC chair? Just how identical to your views do you expect Nancy to be?

And I had nothing to do with that choice. So, no, her record on women's rights isn't as you represent it.

Dennis Kucinich has a questionable past in terms of minority and women's rights as well.

They preferred to excoriate the prochoice guy who ended up getting the job.

Go figure! Ya can't please everyone on every issue, I guess.

She had to work clean up after gawd knows how many -- probably since Daschle was hamstrung.

The stakes are high.