I am concerned that DU is out of touch with middle America

I am really concerned that DU is out of touch with middle America.

Don't you all know that the average American absolutely LOVES the war in Iraq, and if the Democrats dare to oppose it they will pay dearly at the ballot box. Americans love seeing their sons and daughters come home in body bags, they love hearing about the bombs going off in the Baghdad marketplace, and they love to see hundreds of billions of their tax dollars spent on a war with no clear objective and no end in sight.

I am concerned that middle America will not accept the idea of single payer health care. We all just LOVE to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to the insurance companies every month. We don't care if our claims get denied, as long as the marketplace is able to run free we are more willing to watch our children suffer from horrible illnesses that they don't have insurance to cover. "Give us higher health care costs, and give the insurance companies more profit", that is the motto of the working class.

I am also concerned that too many people on the left want to have more protections for our environment. They don't realize that the American people LOVE to drink poison in their water, it gives it an extra tangy flavor and no one wants to give up that wonderful taste. In fact they are not content with those poisons merely being in the water, they want them to be in the air too. Every time they take a breath they want to feel the fumes from the local oil refinery enter their lungs, there is no way you are ever going to convince middle America that it is better to breathe clean air and drink clean water.

I am concerned that too many people are speaking out against the no-bid contracts to Halliburton because come on; we all know the top priority of the vast majority Americans is ensuring that the CEO of Halliburton lives very well. No American would want their money going to ridiculous programs like education when they could be giving that money to Dick Cheney's friends.

I am concerned that too many people here think that no person is above the law. I mean just because George Bush may be a criminal does not mean anyone would ever want to hold him accountable for his crimes. Haven't you looked at George Bush's approval ratings? He is clearly the most popular man in America and people would be outraged if anyone were to remove him from office. Middle America loves George Bush, and we all believe he should be above the law.

I am just so concerned that the Democrats are going to lose middle America if they don't reach out to the extreme-right and try to win back the southerners who were chased away by such far-left radicals as Martin Luther King Jr. We need to reach across the aisle and embrace the values of the religious right, because as we all know the average American loves to have the "moral values" of a group of hypocrites shoved down their throats.

I am also concerned that we are not doing enough to promote business. After all nobody in middle America cares how big their paychecks are, just so long as their boss gets a massive check to take home. The average American thinks it is absolutely wonderful that the CEO of their company makes 400 times what they make. We are all more than willing to scrape by on nothing if it means that our managers will get a bigger yacht next year.

Yes DU I am concerned, why would middle America ever want policies that benefit them?

good post

Cause he's good enough, and he's sarcastic enough. . . and gosh darn it, we just like him!

:toast: :thumbsup:

:applause: and a BIG K & R!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

That's awesome.

:evilgrin:

:toast:

kick and nominated

Because many of them still vote for the guy they'd like to have a beer with.

but somehow I couldn't. The 'reply'-button was removed from it, as it was from all reactions to your piece.

I just wanted to say I think it's an extremely powerfull piece. It was a great read. Especially this piece:

"It didn't matter that this man had no experience that could have possibly qualified him to be President. It didn't matter that this man had brought financial ruin on every company he worked for. It didn't matter that this man's family had so many skeletons in their closet that they could not get the door shut. It didn't matter that the man spent his early years going AWOL so he could snort his coke and drink his booze, because dammit that is the type of guy we all supposedly wanted to drink up with."

I never realized before how different the election results would've been if the media reported on the failures of Bush as a bussiness man and his lack of experience.

The reason you couldn't comment is because it was written a few months ago and has since been archived by the mods as all threads are eventually. I will probably repost it eventually, but I want to wait at least a year before doing so because I don't want to be repeating myself too often.

It's time this whole "mainstream America" lie is shown for what it is. The problem with mainstream America is they are too busy putting food on their families to take the time to dig for the truth.

:-) MKJ

:thumbsup: K&R

:yourock: and so does your composition!!

Thank You!! :hug:

:woohoo: :woohoo:

:kick: & Recommended! :)

where are they:shrug:

and this is one southerner who is HIGHLY offended by this paragraph:

I am just so concerned that the Democrats are going to lose middle America if they don't reach out to the extreme-right and try to win back the southerners who were chased away by such far-left radicals as Martin Luther King Jr. We need to reach across the aisle and embrace the values of the religious right, because as we all know the average American loves to have the "moral values" of a group of hypocrites shoved down their throats.

but, whatever...keep preaching to the choir.

carry on with k and r

:patriot:

"the southerners who were chased away by such far-left radicals as Martin Luther King Jr." That sentence does not imply all southerners are racists, but it is certainly a historical fact that many of the Dixiecrats in the south became Republicans because of the civil rights movement. We are constantly hearing from the pundits that we need to win these voters back by embracing certain right-wing positions, many of which are very discriminatory.

As long as you are not one of the southerners which was chased away from the Democrats by the civil rights movement (which I don't think you are) then nothing in that paragraph applies to you.

i, personally would have left it out. it offends me because i know a different south. that is all. i could make broad sweeping generalizations about minnesota. would it not touch a nerve? perhaps not. perhaps i am overly sensitive. the south gets bashed on here quite a bit. iirc democratic underground was founded in atlanta...

Satire is often expressed with generalizations. Intellectually, I understand your feelings, but I disagree. I am a Southener too(from GA). But I love what MN Against Bush has written. I don't feel offended. That's just me.

K&R

legislators at the capitol, since it's the home of the republican democrats.

is a comment on what happened in the mid-1960s. People like LBJ recognized it was taking place; Nixon's advisor Kevin Phillips came up with the "southern strategy" that fully exploited the tensions within the democratic party. I think the OP was making a statement regarding those who wish they could go backwards in time.

than you do. I lived in Texas for ten years, and Flordia for two. I suffered Shrub as Gubnor, and then pResident. I hate to say it, but I feel that the majority of the South DOES HAVE issues with those who are minorities (read: non-white, non-Christian, non-heterosexual) This comes from my own personal experience. Maybe I constantly kept meeting up with the wrong Southerners...but it sure seemed pretty prevalent to me. It was always a tension just under the surface...and I noticed a lot of people took sides based on race often.

Sorry, but, obviously, you know a different South than I do, too. I'm glad you do, and wish you could introduce me to it sometime. And I'm sorry that satire offended you, because, as MN pointed out...nothing it it was directed at you....it was directed at the dixiecrats - folks like George Wallace, Strom Thurmond, Dick Armey, Phil Gramm, etc, etc, etc.

that MILLIONS of Americans all over the country have veered right out of fear of "far-left radicals like ML King Jr." Do I even have to give examples where large pockets of bigotry and ignorance exist in every state??? Aren't you aware of this?

This is not a limited to the South and it is divisive to paint it that way....

--------

(Edit to say: Aside from this point about Southerners, the rest of your piece is excellent.)

my point being that no other geographical area is maligned on this website like the south. there is prejudice ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY. i am here to unify not divide.

to the republicans.

The west tends red, but it wavers and regularly flips back to blue. The midwest tends red, but it wavers and regularly flips back to blue. You can find prejudice in Vermont, but they manage to keep voting blue. Even when Massachusets elects a republican governor, it votes blue.

Not disparaging the fine work of southern liberals, but it was not in Minnisota where the governor stood in the schoolhouse door proclaiming "segregation forever".

The south deserves every bit of the maligning it gets.

I grew up on the Great Plains and lived in the South most of my adult life. The plains - the western parts of Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, and the eastern parts of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado & New Mexico - are far redder than any of the Southern states where I lived for 44 years (East Texas, Louisiana, Virginia, Georgia).

My home county (Ochiltree, at the top of the Panhandle) brags on their website that they gave a highter percentage of votes to Bush in 2004 than any other county in the country. I go back occasionally for a class reunion, and you wouldn't believe the right-wing garbage they spout. The blinders on their eyes go back in time as long as I can remember; I was home in the summer of 1968, still feeling terribly emotional about King's death (had taken our two oldest children & marched in the funeral march) and ended up in an argument with my entire class. They all supported the woman who said she'd let a three-year-old starve to death before she'd give the parents welfare. (A woman, btw, who got her own special form of welfare, oil depletion allowances, money from not planting wheat, etc.)

I've often asked myself if my politics would be like theirs if I hadn't gotten away. And the irony is that the place I got away to, the place that opened my eyes, was the South. So - unless you've had experience of both, you are speaking not from experience but from prejudice. The South, after all, is one of the few entities it's politically correct to bash.

I have had experience of both...and being a member of a minority group, do you want me to tell you on which side of the Mason-Dixon line I had a harder time just living and being left alone to do it?

15 years South and 21 North...I think I'm qualified.

rural, no cities to speak of (look at the map on the Maher show, and there's not one light north of Amarillo), incredibly conservative. I don't understand why the descendants of the people who survived the Dust Bowl don't recognize the help their parents/grandparents got.

most people are the "what have you done for me lately" types....and the big thing for them, out there....is taxes. There's a lot of landowners out there, you know.

The trend in our country has been for more and more folks to find a way to weasel out of society, and the maintenance of it. In short, many people are very selfish.

aren't you a pleasant addition to the south :eyes:

LOVE your username....aren't you PROUD of it??

and for the above poster:sarcasm:

No other area of the country so reliably votes Republican, either!!

enjoy your stay...

in the south, as H20 man pointed out - that is a long recognized political phenomenon.

If you rise above it as a southerner, good for you, but why be offended at the fact that there are others who don't, and exist in generally greater numbers?

There's no reason for that offense-taking. Many people recognize that they live in red states without taking offense when that fact is mentioned.

mind that Malcolm X said that the "south" includes everything below the Canadian border.

has sold WELL all over this country. The point about fear of 'radicals/MLK' could have easily been made without the blanket condemnation of "Southerners."

These are misconceptions about Southerners, even historically speaking, that intelligent people from other parts of the country should be wary of inflating.

Without getting into a big debate about it, which always ends in a flamefest around here, suffice to say that many who perpetuate myths about the South are just as guilty of rigid stereotyping as the original racists. I'm every bit as willing as you to see groups in the South as wrong and ignorant. But you need to acknowledge that bigots and knee-jerk rightwingers are everywhere, and have been for a long time. Small-minded traditionalists all over this country have always feared the "radicals"-- the gays, the racial minorities, immigrants, intellectuals, the tree huggers--you name it--ANYBODY who isn't just like them. This is more of a rural/urban divide than it is a regional divide.

Your "red states" reference also gives you away as someone who buys divisive media terms for convenience. Look at the red states/blue states breakdown into COUNTY maps of the states, and you will see that America is not really red and blue.

America is purple.

it's just more vocal. I have friends (from inter-racial marriages and those who have adopted African orphans) who tell me that their racial encouters were definitely not more common in the south. It's more like this: when they do encounter racism in the South, the people guilty of it show no shame. They still experience just as much racism in other areas of the US, but it's just more subtle, more covert. In those instances it is obvious what is happening, but it is masked with silence. In the South, people who are still racist have no problem vocalizing it with their bigoted talk. Many of my friends have told me that although they hate all forms of racism, the open, upfront Southern bigot is more preferable to them than the slinky, sleazy method used in other areas of the US.

Something to think about.

You make some good points.

Ironically, I have experience living in Minnesota (right smack dab in the middle of Lake Wobegon, St Cloud) and for the past two years am enjoying living within sight of the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia.
Actually, right in Falwell country.

I don't want to knock Minnesotans. Anyone who can endure Minnesota winters and gastronomical delights such as "hotdish" have a warm place in my heart.

However, two points....

1) there is blatant racism in Minnesota, just as there is in the South. In St Cloud, where I lived, I recall a distinct WHITE population. Less than 1% black, as I recall. So let's just say it was quite noticeable being a black in what was called White Cloud. The Somali population, if you read the good old St Cloud Times chat board, was the victims of continual racist hate-mongering that would curl the toes of the most rabid Southern segregationist during Jim Crow. I recall Somali homes, and places of worship being arsonized and some of the racists being very pleased about the turn of events.
So, "Minnesota Nice" was quite the standard as long as you were white, that is.

Well, of course, not everyone in White Cloud was/is that way. My point, however, is that racism is a disease that has no geographical boundaries. Even in in Lake Wobegon, that great place that time forgot where men are good looking, women are strong, the children are above average and decidedly white....

2) The great people of Minnesota think of themselves as middle america, which is true if you think East-West. But if you think North-South, it is hard to say you are in the middle when 30 below zero is not a rare temperature reading, when the trees are barren in April and into May, and when people are proud of their ice houses (an archietectural idiocyncracy most of the country is ignorant of).

What is the result is a certain amount of provincialism among them. Isolation would be another term. But, one thing that unites Minnesotans of all political stripes is their disdain towards Iowans, and stereotyping of Southerners in general.

No, Minnesotans are not any more racist than anywhere else. In fact, if you are talking about Minneapolis or St Paul or the Iron Range, there are many progressive souls to make up for the redness of the countryside.

The reason I am writing this is the irony. Yes, there is racism in the South. But I also see more intermingling of the races and comfort in each other's presence.

So, when St Cloud stops getting riled up about Somali immigrants and too much emphasis on diversity by ST Cloud State University....then let's talk about racism down here.....

Thank you so much for sharing it.:hi:

But I still noticed it a lot more when I lived in the South. I have lived about half my life on each side of the Mason-dixon line...and I don't think I really need to tell you which side of that line I had more trouble living on...being a member of a minority group. 15 years South, and 21 North..I think that is enough experience in both places to make an informed statement.

can you relate to that picture of it? --that racism may be more noticeable in the South, but more subtle and hidden elsewhere? Also there's the urban vs rural factor.

If you live in an urban area of PA, you might find things to be different in a rural area of PA, I'm pretty sure of that. But I also have a black friend originally from Philly who lives in the south and says he wouldn't go north again. Opinions vary depending on experience I guess.

Maybe you could write an article or something based on the differences you see. It would be interesting reading.

But I live in a rural area of Pennsylvania. I have had trouble finding work, mostly because my skills are not in high demand in this area, and I do not wish to learn blue-collar skills. I therefore am in the process of launching my own business.

I came up here to Pennsylvania to be with my elderly mother, so that she would not be alone...no other family lives up here...most of our family is from Illinois.

I can say that, in my immediate neighborhood...no one gives me a hard time about being who and what I am. I have had my share of unpleasant experiences, yes...but not to the degree that I did down South. also, I notice that, up here...a lot more people publicly jumped in on my side when I was being harassed...than they ever did down South.

I like the weather down South, and hate the cold winter...but I'd rather suffer that than suffer the blatant bigotry I encountered in the South. Yeah, it exists up North, too, but at least it's more subtle, and not so "in your face."

well all I can say is ...Welcome to DU :toast: and I hope that together we can change the world.

This will not be an easy task. It seems to me that racism is alive and well around the country--all you have to do is listen to people trash the Hispanics from Mexico and South America.

Good luck with your business.

I hope we can change the world, too. At least, if nothing else...leave it a better place than I found it, anyway.
Alas, it is not just racism that is alive and well in this country. Bigotry and prejudice and elitism takes many forms.

Among those who suffer are: non-whites, women, non-Christians, non-heterosexuals, transgendered persons, smokers, fat people, people who just did not get the genetic luck of the draw, etc, etc, etc.

The sad thing is...most of this bigotry and prejudice and elitism is born partly out of fear and misunderstanding, yes...but more out of the lack of strength of most people. Most people lack the strength and the will to look within themselves and find validation. They, therefore...need someone outside of themselves, upon whom they can look down...and, as a result, feel better about themselves.

Truly sad. You don't know whether you want to beat the truth into them or just pity them. Except that no pity can be spared for those who never show it to others.

drove away as many Northerners as Southerners.

The South was reliably blue until that time. And then the South did a complete 180 and has never come back since. Can you say that about any other region of the country?

dupe

everywhere.

I am white working class. I venture a guess a significant portion of the members here are white workingclass people too.

Now, I don't have numbers right handy...but, when you can give me numbers that say 70 to 80 percent of white workingclass people are voting Republican....then i'll go along with your statement.

The fact is...most Southern states DO VOTE 70 to 80 perecent Republican. check out, for example, Misissippi and Alabama. I think they are far more reliably Republican than are white workingclass folk everywhere else in the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_1980#Voter_demographics

57% of blue collar workers supported Carter in 1976, and 46% in 1980. I'm not a specialist in US election but I've always been told that the "Reagan Revolution" was about blue collar people nationwide voting against integration and the counterculture movements of the sixties and seventies.

However, I believe that the percentage of white workingclass folks voting Republican in the rest of the nation is significantly lower than the percentage of all Southerners who vote Republican.

Basically, what I am saying is...if you separate out the South (about 12 states) the percentage of all people in those states that vote Republican....is higher than the percentage of white workingclass folks in the remaining 38 states that vote Republican.

Yes, more white workingclass folks vote Repoublican than they did some 30 years ago...that I will gladly give you. But I still say the percentage of Southerners as a whole who vote Republican is significantly higher than the percentage of white workingclass folks in the remaining 38 states of this nation.

I don't have specific numbers at hand to share with you, but I'm betting that what I am saying here is true. Because if the majority of white workingclass folks voting Republican was as high as the percentage of southerners as a whole voting Republican...we'd be getting creamed every single election - in fac, elections would be a joke...not that they aren't basically a joke already, since we generally do not get the best candidates to choose from - but, rather...the ones who happen to be able to raise the most money.

It is why a guy like Dennis Kucinich...or a guy like John Edwards (whom I support) will never actually get the nomination. They would do too much good for the Joe Sixpacks and Jane Secretarys of this country...and would, in the process, cause those with the most to lose...to lose bigtime...and they are not about to let that happen.

We The People are not ever going to regain control of our country through the ballot box...of this, I am convinced. It's gonna take another Boston Tea Party, and a popular uprising that likely never will occur - because those in power are smart enough to insure that most are at least content enough (and scared enough) to keep their heads down, and just pray no one notices them...and no one takes away the feed bag they have their heads shoved in...and on which they munch contentedly until they die.

Those in power are smart enough not to generate a critical mass of people so desperate that they no longer have anything to lose...because the one who no longer has anything to lose...is someone that no one can control. That won't do for the powers that be. So they keep just enough of the population content enough to be afraid to risk their comfort. And those they can't scare that way...they create psychological warfare, by propping up bogeymen to scare them...(oh, my God, the swarthy-skinned dude is gonna force you to kneel and pray towards Mecca five times a day, and if you don't, he will nuke us all!!):sarcasm:

Power and fear are tools of statecraft...and they well know this.

Of course, the voting patterns in the South would be quite different if black people there were ever to achieve full suffrage.

As things are, the South went R when LBJ supported civil rights. Before that, they were D because Lincoln was R. The Southern States (except FL, b/c of migration) were never what you would call "swing states." I think that blue-collar workers in, for instance, OH and PA have a greater impact on the actual electoral result.

The South didn't vote Republican en masse until 1994 - 30 years AFTER MLK Jr. and 20+ years AFTER Nixon's so-called "Southern strategy." I don't think either one of those things had as much to do with turning the South "red," as Newt Gingrinch and the corporate media in 1994.

that although the South had its strong racist elements, it also voted Democratic in larger numbers. Then in the early 90's, the Republicans used more coded strategies to play the race card and make gains in the south. Jesse Helms was a master at this. The Republicans made the racial divisions in the south worse in their zeal to gain control.

Also I have to add, from my experience, that had we not had a completely corrupt election system, even these gains in the 90's in the South would NOT have taken place. The "will of the people" in many elections was not done.

Agreed there is another side to the conventional wisdom on Southern politics.

In fact, I'm a Texan. Gotta laugh to keep from crying.

(Look up "sarcasm" in your dictionary.)

smart ass in the dictionary. i saw a picture of bridget burke in mine.

Thanks.

nobody likes a smart ass.

now go chew your cud like the good cow you are.

who ever heard of getting a great piece of elephant?

:toast:

Just because you didn't realize the OP was satire--making fun of the Concern Trolls.

(If you're an "editor"--why no Upper Case?)

we are a polarized nation. i was satirizing the satire. too subtle for most people on this board, obviously. why do i take attacks about the south personally? PERSONALLY i am a SOUTHERNER!!! as to to your pick snicketty question about lower case --- i give you e. e. cummings. ever heard of him? look him up.

did i use enough UPPER CASE to satisfy your snooty ass?

this is me: bouncing all over this thread, whoo-pee ----> :bounce::bounce::bounce:

But someone who claims to be an "editor" ought to know a bit about English usage. Even in an informal setting, using both cases makes it easier on the reader.

If you look at my profile, you'll see I'm a Texan. But your profile is sadly incomplete.

(Isn't it a bit early to start drinking?)

simply because of the accuracy. I understand your sensitivity to the paragraph but it is historically accurate with way too many left over contemporary repercussions. I am not counted in that paragraph, but I can feel the sting because so much of my family is.

You shouldn't take this personally. These are generalizations. I have known many wonderful, courageous, upright Southerners who had real integrity.

At the same time, I remember George Wallace. I remember Nixon's strategy of winning southern votes with a subtle form of racism. That is what really got our nation into the mess it is in. If it weren't for the racism and anger of southerners, we would be able to elect Democrats. Southerners have formed, since the Nixon era, the right-wing voter base. And the core values of that base are bigotry, hatred and arrogance. (Granted there are other areas in the U.S. that are predictably bigoted. Orange County, California is a good example.)

The days of the Southern Democrats who remained racists but voted for Roosevelt on other issues such as economic development are long gone.

You may be offended. But the Republican strength in the south was built on racism and anger at Yankee ideas like equality for people of color and women. I was there. If you believe things have changed, please explain the basis for your belief.

As for the "moral values," of Republican conservatives. The problem is not that Republicans have high moral and spiritual values. It is that they want to impose their personal moral and spiritual values on others. They are hypocrites because while they want to impose their claimed values on others, they don't live by their values themselves. Many of the major Republican candidates are divorced -- yet most of them profess to believe in the sanctity of marriage and condemn the idea of gay marriage. It's not that southerners "sin" more. It's that they pontificate more about their high moral values and use "moral values" to intimidate and control others. That's dangerous stuff. You cannot befriend hypocrites. They cannot be trusted. They are too lacking in integrity, i.e., oneness with themselves and consistency in impulse, thought and behavior, to be good friends.

I love it!

Ironic that in order for the CEO to make 400 times more, he's got to fire some more middle Americans. As they say, the point of compassionate conservatism, is to screw Americans and make them think they like it.

:spray:

:kick: MKJ

:kick: MKJ

Whereas, despite the polls which universally always say a solid majority of America is pro-choice, everybody knows we "lose" on social issues like abortion, because The Heartland Values Voter™ is as all-powerful as our friends in the corporate media want us to believe.

The Heartland Values Voter™ clearly runs this country, and he (he's a "he") for sure wants it to be a Christian Theocracy. He doesn't think consenting adults should be able to make their own decisions about their own lives and bodies- that's why Terri Schiavo was such a BIG WIN for the GOP!

Given the all-powerful nature of The Heartland Values Voter™, the American People obviously don't want a Separation of Church and State. 80 Million Potheads and strong libertarian wings in both major parties notwithstanding, they think a $40 Billion dollar a year drug war aimed primarily at pot smokers like Willie Nelson is a splendid idea. If anything, they'd like MORE of their tax dollars to go towards waging "wars" on consenting adult behaviors that don't harm anyone else- you know, like looking at pictures of other adults nude or fucking.

The Heartland Values Voter™ running the show means that support for things ideas like a Single Payer Health Care system, or a liveable minimum wage- real-world improvements in the lives of the dwindling middle class- are a waste of time. No, what we really need to do is appeal to The Heartland Values Voter™ by aping the GOP's intolerant, backwards-ass stances on social issues, out-Authoritarianing them on micro-management of the personal lives of individual consenting adults, and above all engaging in as much cheap religious right-style Jesus pandering as possible. In fact, the more we can throw the atheists, gays, and pro-choicers under the bus, preferably not just with policies specifically aimed at The Heartland Values Voter™ (and 180 degrees from any "rights" the base of our party may be deluded enough to believe it has) but with public statements of rebuke, ridicule, and chastisement by our party leaders- you know, "We should teach 'both sides' in the evolution 'debate'", "No child is discriminated against by being forced to pledge 'Under God'", that sort of thing.

Oh, yeah. And.. :sarcasm:

This is why I don't like the electoral college. And why should a state with a population of 1 million have the same number of senators as a state with 30 million? And then the repubs gerrymander the house districts! Doesn't seem right to me.

The way things are set up, the 400,000 residents of Wyoming control the same 1/50th of the U.S. Senate that the 33 Million Californians do. That skews our government far more conservative than the American People by and large are.

and apparently I overestimated the population of Wyoming. Perhaps if there was only 1 senator from states like Wyoming, we would never have seen the likes of Dick Cheney! Or maybe they are that conservative there, I don't know. But it definitely skews the country conservative.

I have lots of family (mostly democrats) living in the heart of the heartland. I take umbrage at the implication that the people in these states are not entitled to representation in DC, that somehow they are backwards and need to be guided by the wisdom of the "Coasts."
Eh, but what the hell would I know anyway, being from Wisconsin and intellectually deficient, since I want to stay here. I'll just out and water the cucumbers now, maybe drink a cold beer and watch the fireflys tonight.

I guess all of us pinkos will have to comfort ourselves with our left-wing socialist fringe rants, while the mainstream politicians put their Solomonic wisdom on display and make us look like fools. I'm also glad that the fine watchdogs in the MSM are busy protecting middle America from our moon-bat lunacy, which could easily lead to mobs of Burqua clad lesbians and other terrorist sympathizers marching through the suburbs burning flags and consecrating weddings between small children and pieces of livestock, were it ever seriously considered by politicians in Washington. Thank you for your column and thank goodness America is in such good hands.

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot:



:rofl:

...but the record over the last forty years or so is very clear. Either the Democrats track to the center or they will get the living shit beaten out of them...war or not war, it doesn't matter.

Does anyone here remember 1972? Does anyone here remember 1984? Does anyone here remember 1988?

Is there anyone here who isn't twenty-one? I mean, come on. Look at the record.

We haven't had a Yankee President since Jack Kennedy...and the Democrats want to nominate Hillary or Obama? THINK!

The guy to nominate should be Edwards or Gore. Edwards doesn't have the money and his numbers suck, so we're left with Gore. Gore is a moderate, which means a lot of liberals will stay home because he's not liberal enough for them. Even so, Gore would almost certainly win Pennsylvania and possibly Ohio...and since having two out of three among Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida would have won the race in 2000, means he'd have one hell of a shot.

But he doesn't have Hillary's money. When Bill and Hill walk into a room, they suck up all the oxygen. That's been a problem since the early days of the first Clinton campaign, and Hillary's ego is so goddamn big that she isn't going to let anyone get in front of her (especially Al Gore) and block her route to the White House because SHE thinks she's entitled to it. That's the truth.

The scenario I see developing is Hillary gets the nomination over her party's dead body, Giuliani or Thompson get the nomination of the Republicans, we go into Labor Day 2008 and have a near civil war from then until Election Day. Bill and Hillary put up the mother of all fights and end up losing every southern state plus Florida...handing the White House over to Rudy Giuliani. What primary issue does the election turn on? Terrorism and the war. In that order.

Democrats ABSOLUTELY MUST find a legitimate way to win in the South. This HAS to be fixed. It can no longer be ignored, and that might mean splitting the party and rebuilding. If the party continues on this path, it cannot survive. One thousand people per day move to Florida, mostly affluent retirees from Rust Belt suburbs. Naples, Florida already looks like Little Akron. Cleveland Clinic opened a hospital there several years ago. That's a lot of heart bypasses and prostate operations, doncha think?

Where the Democrats truly missed the boat was with Joe Biden. He's from Delaware (technically a southern state, kinda sorta) but was raised in Scranton. Yeah, he went to prep schools and then to Syracuse University but in his soul he's still a hard headed hunky, watching all those guys go off to work in the mills and the mines. You can see it. You can hear it in his voice. He sounds like he's been eating shoo-fly pie and pierogies most of his life...and he probably has. He's also a foreign policy heavyweight AND has a son serving in the Jag Corps in Iraq. He walks the walk and should have been President two or three times over...and that's a damn shame.

Did you know the population of North Carolina will exceed the population of New Jersey by 2010? If it suddenly becomes more important to win North Carolina than New Jersey in order to become President of the United States...and Democrats are still walking around thinking the whole country should look like Northern California, they're gonna be in one hell of a bind. Scratch that. What they will be is out of business!

The Deep South IS NOT Northern California and it never will be. It doesn't want to be. That's a FACT.

There's another element here no one seems to be talking about: the decline of organized labor. Our labor unions are now so weak General Motors and Ford (and Chrysler, for now) are basically dictating terms and the unions take whatever is offered. There are a variety of reasons for this (most of which the unions are not responsible for) but the situation is all too real. If the unions' membership is declining, there are fewer dollars to cough up for political campaigns. This, and then we have what's left of our domestic industrial base drifting toward Right To Work states...

...and herein lies yet another reason for the Democratic party to realign itself.

Yes, the progressives in Washington state and Oregon and Northern California won't like it...but they're all rich living in houses which have appreciated two or four or five fold since the early part of the decade. Maybe the West Coast will secede from the Union. Maybe it needs to.

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Somehow,I didn't even realize it until datavg told me! Wow, this is GREAT! I can stop working now! Whew!

:woohoo:

But now that I know we Oregon progressives are wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, I must confess I kinda like that idea about seceding from the rest of the country. Anybody remember Ecotopia?

Incidentally, I'm retired but still have to keep working, thanks to Bushie and his wonderful economic policies. Gotta love it!

Tired Old Cynic

http://www.amazon.com/Whistling-Past-Dixie-Democrats-Without/dp/0743290151

Whistling Past Dixie: How Democrats Can Win Without the South (Hardcover)
by Thomas F. Schaller


An Amazon Review from From Publishers Weekly:
Instead of "futile pandering to the nation's most conservative voters," in the South, Democrats should build a non-Southern majority to regain dominance, argues Schaller, a University of Maryland political scientist, in this focused, tactical account. The Republicans' Southern monopoly may have helped them achieve national majorities in the past, but it has never constituted a majority alone, Schaller explains. There are greener pastures for Democrats at all levels of elected government: the Midwest, Southwest and Mountain West. Schaller's demographic numbers buttress a solid argument, but he contradicts himself at times—as when he argues that many voters (deceived by Republican politicians) empowered "a radically conservative agenda" against their own interests but are "smart" enough to understand a nuanced Democratic platform on American liberties (e.g., connecting gun rights and gay rights). But the basic truth of the author's fight-fire-with-fire strategy is undeniable: a much-needed shot of realpolitik in the arm of the modern Democratic Party, whose greatest weakness lies not in the lack of good ideas but in compromising them. Charts, maps. (Oct.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

We need a dug in alliance between the Northeast, Midwest and Mountain or West Coast states to hold the South at bay. We cannot give in to the politics of hate to try and win them over.

...that's what Dukakis said in 1988, and you saw what happened to him.

The South has to be dealt with. If it isn't, Republicans will retain the White House almost indefinitely. We're almost there now. Only three Democrats have lived in the White House since the end of World War II: Kennedy, Carter and Clinton. Clinton was forced to govern as a moderate Republican from 1995 on because the Democrats lost control of the House...and that's also how we got welfare reform. They say Daniel Moynihan practically had a stroke the day Clinton signed it. Some people think that's part of what killed him. It's true!

Yes, I know a lot of northerners don't think the South is important. Well...okay, I guess we can discount the fact that a thousand people per day are moving to Florida and Hyundai is building plants in Alabama like crazy and almost all of the BMW SUVs sold in this country are assembled in South Carolina and they're getting ready to build a fourth perimeter highway around Dallas.

Maybe you don't think those things are important. It's a free country. That's your right.

But when bright young graduates from state-funded universities in the blue north walk across that stage, there's almost certainly going to be headhunters at the other end with job offers in places like Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Charlotte and Nashville...

...and when they take those jobs and settle there, those northern states lose the only opportunity they had to maintain their tax bases and refresh their populations for the future.

If you want to look at it that way, you can validly say that southern states are literally feeding off the northern states. There's a parasitic relationship there.

Have I missed anything?

Chapel Hill NC is not Mobile Alabama, and Detroit MI isn't Grand Rapids MI. As in the north there are plenty of progressives in the south, I went to school in NC and used to hang out with some of them. The problem isn't that progressive ideas can't compete down there, its more that the Democratic party abandoned it in terms of funding and organizing. The population of NC is growing because of the research triangle and the flourishing biotech industry. It can be the next blue state if Democrats play it right.

This isn't really an issue of right and left anymore though. I didn't even think to make a connection to the next presidential race, and that is because the issue has come down to whether our country will be run indefinitely by plutocrats. The GOP is a party that has been purchased, and "middle america" is MSM code for the corporate power base. If our principles can't win out in that fight then the results of every presidential election will be meaningless, because all purchased politicians act the same way however they frame it in public.

the Gentleman's Agreement on Race was reached in 1948, after the previous one in 1877. Of course the bolts from the Conventions in 48 and then in 60 didn't help things one bit. . .
Hell, Mobile, Alabama ain't even Mobile, Alabama. It is a bunch of neighborhoods. Each has its own character and demographical history of voting and support for various candidates/parties.
One can only discuss longue duree when talking about the South it seems, and it is the actualite, not even the corte duree that matters! Voting is about now, not about then.

in the face of one of the most corrupted election systems in the country, North Carolina would already be a "blue" state.

But I don't do this "blue state/red state" reference without reservation. As long as it's used to mean a trend, it's OK --but then it leads to Blue putting down Red, when we all are Purple.

************
:thumbsup: and I'd have to say BINGO to your second point--that it isn't really a matter of left and right anymore. It's a matter of the People vs. the Plutocrats. Yes.

And between People W. Integrity and People W. Little To No Integrity.

There are definitely bigger issues than "left" vs. "right" at this point. People fall into that old media trap, the Blues vs the Reds, playing on the old simplistic sports equations.

Bill is a Southerner & he was actually elected. Twice. Hilary is not my favorite candidate, but I'm not upset that she's an uppity woman.

Which Liberals would stay at home on election day, should Gore make the ballot? Not damn many.

I'm from Texas, by the way. Do not assume that all Southerners are inbred bigots.

...but I lived in Dallas for almost a decade, and I can say with certainty that most Texans or southerners I've ever met definitely aren't liberal Democrats. I was raised in fairly liberal NE Ohio (Kucinich was making headlines in our local news when I was in junior high) and most of my coworkers in Texas thought I was a goddamn Communist.

I wouldn't mind being a citizen of a truly democratic, second rate, power, that didn't feel compelled to run the world.

;)

please??

...it's called Great Britain.

You can move there and pay their sixty percent taxes and wait in line for medical care.

So, what's stopping you? Get a move on, most ricky tick!

Where in the hell does this 60% tax figure come from?

And the lines for medical care? And I am not talking about elective surgery. Name ONE instance of someone who had to wait for medical care. Of course I call my doctor in the good old USA for something and he says he can "fit me in next month". Or better yet, I can't go to the ONE eye doctor on my plan because he "isn't taking any new patients". Tell me how that is so much better.

...a PPO plan, and I go anywhere I want. I always have.

HMOs are an abortion. They shouldn't even exist. I grew up in the life insurance and real estate business, and my father always said stay away from an HMO. He was right.

I had a doctor years ago in Dallas (now long retired) who told me the only way to fix healthcare is to (yes) get the big insurance companies out of the business but go back to fee-for-service like it used to be until the late Seventies. He was absolutely right, as usual.

But, the insurance companies own the country...so that isn't gonna happen. Michael Moore be damned.

so we get whatever our employers offer. But I was just citing some examples of "waiting for health care" here in the US. The talking point that people in Canada or France have to wait to be seen is utter nonsense. I don't think they wait any longer than we do.

Yes, by all means get the insurance companies out of the health care business. Or at the very least regulate them a lot.

If you're not mad at the Bu$h-Cheney regime, it means you really haven't been paying attention.

:kick:

Last time I looked, New York City was in the north. And what's that state that Mitt Romney governed?

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First, it's pathetic to call Hillary Clinton a "bitch." The term is insulting, incredibly sexist, and not a fair characterization of Senator Clinton. That comment alone makes your entire argument look childish.

Second, the only way in which Giuliani has ever been "on the front line of the whole terror thing" was to make stupid management decisions as mayor that worsened the impact of the attacks on 9/11. Nothing else. Nada. Giuliani didn't even bother to show up for committee meetings to discuss terrorism. He's all talk and no action on terrorism.

Third, you may have had a job in sales in south Florida "many years ago," but it's changed since then. I know that this may come as a surprise to you, but there are a lot of people in south Florida who don't "sound like they're from Brooklyn."

Fourth, everyone I know in Brooklyn intensely dislikes Giuliani anyway and wouldn't vote for him for dog catcher. They know what a lousy job he did as mayor.

Fifth, you're still having a problem with the illogic of your argument. If southerners will vote for the former mayor of NYC, then obviously being from New York isn't such a problem, is it? If it's not a problem for Giuliani it isn't a problem for Clinton.

Please take your cheerleading for Giuliani elsewhere. It isn't welcome here.

Many of them stopped doing that in 2006 and they did quite well.

...but 2006 wasn't a presidential election year. 2008 is.

So don't listen. You're free to do that. You're also free to live in a country whose rulers will be chosen by people whose view of the world is 180 degrees opposed to your own.

Most of us are not rich, and in fact, some of us are living on an income under 125% of poverty...which, trust me, does not go very far anymore.

As to seceding, no problem. Bring back the Bear Flag Republic! Or better yet, Ecotopia!

And remember, then all of you remaining in Imperial America will have to pay more for all of the goods that come through our ports. Don't forget the wines, fresh produce, rice and even cotton which are grown here. I am not even including the products from Ore. or Wash. CA is the 7th largest economy in the world.

K&R!

due to the "fair and balanced" media. The media is being too fair to the criminals in the government and they have balanced right-wing propaganda with the truth.

Very "Moore"ish...

Great job!!! :thumbsup:

Oh, I do love it. Thank you for holding up the negative mirror. It puts what's happened here into stark relief.

I was giggling the whole way through, should you wish to know.... "I am concerned that..."

:rofl:

might have to drive last year's Bentley.
The dishonor would be intolerable!
:sarcasm:

... that was so funny I forgot to laugh - What are you, 12?

It was my goal at 18 to live 1 year in every state in the US - Not there yet because I am over 50 but pretty close. Every state is different and equal, thus 2 senators from each state in the Upper House. With the lower house a direct representation of the people. Your lack of respect for our heartland America is akin to the GOP hatred for "liberals", stupid & childish! I bet you think you are clever? You are spewing the same shit I said over 30 years ago, and my parents said before me.

The bottom line - get your degree, become a professional and go get them personally - put your ass on the line, get shot at, kick some ass, run for office & get involved - I hope flopping you fingers/lips is not all you do? Be American and get involved first hand!!!

P.S. Nothing like telling everybody the sky is blue? A real Mensa Member?

No I respect heartland America, the people who disrespect heartland America are those who send their children to die in illegal wars, send their jobs overseas, pollute their environment, and refuse to provide them healthcare.

Thanks for noting your concern though, it really says a lot when you accuse me of being twelve years old right before you launch into a series of personal attacks.

... I call adult supervision in the Kindergarten playground :)

Satire sometimes shows the way you think more than ranting?

Or are we playing Bush politics - "No dissenting views of any kind"?

You did not address a single point I made in my OP, you just threw personal attacks at me. And you accuse me of acting like Kindergartener. If you want to voice a dissenting view go ahead, but if you are going to do so I would suggest addressing the specific content of my post rather than pretending like you are so much more mature than me so we should all just listen to you without question.

I was accused of squelching dissenting viewpoints or something of the sort merely for encouraging Cindy Sheehan to run as a Democrat instead of an independent.

I don't lose sleep over it, I simply don't let them get by with that kind of crap without challenge.

Obviously, too subtle for some.

:toast:

Everybody keeps saying that monkey face and tricky dick II keep helping out their cronies. Are you serious? You have to KNOW there's huge slices of the war machine pie in THEIR OWN off shore accts. Oh, and WHERE did 9 billion of 'lost' money go??? Cheney's Halliburton stock options are up 3000% in three years. Pull the troops out? NO WAY. Money addiction is the most powerful of all.

Just great stuff. My compliments. You had me going.

is not in touch with reality

"I am just so concerned that the Democrats are going to lose middle America if they don't reach out to the extreme-right and try to win back the southerners who were chased away by such far-left radicals as Martin Luther King Jr."

I did not know that extreme-right people were exclusive to the south. Imagine that. Thanks.
quickesst

But the pundits and "concerned Democrats" sure like to focus on the south a lot.

ground that some fail to recognize as the Promised Land. Thank you for taking this brave stance, even though you are at risk of having the angry left on DU disagree with you. They are mean, and Americans don't like mean people. Look at what happened to Karla Fay Tucker.

Al Gore just made the democrat party look like darned fools with this global concert for Bangla Desh. How ignorant! If they are so hungry, how about getting a job?

And scientists have proved that there is no harm from toxic chemical by-products. They are produced exclusively from chemicals from this here earth. If these people would read the Bible, they would know that. But very few democrat leaders will openly advocate Prayer in Schools, for fear of the radical left.

Is it any wonder that this country is in so much trouble?

Thanks for the morning giggle...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1288584&mesg_id=1291432

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I was silent for the same reasons that I am quiet in a house of worship, or during the funeral of a dead person. In fact, I'd combine those two to describe the wisdom of post #69.

Seriously - I loved every line of your wonderful rant!

Especially this one:

We need to reach across the aisle and embrace the values of the religious right, because as we all know the average American loves to have the "moral values" of a group of hypocrites shoved down their throats.

Right on brother / sister !! B-)

;-)

Nice way to begin a morning. Thank you! k&r

America is voting against what policies might benefit them. One of the obvious answers is the great success this administration has had in the division of our country. Divide and conquer. I do believe that it is going to take time to repair if ever. Because of this many on both sides have become one issue voters. DU isn't representative of the level of involvement or knowledge of issues of the country (not to mention unfortunate lack of interest), but even here we have one issue voters. Personally I would like to see far more civil discussions taking place. Otherwise all we are really doing is seeking out only the people who always agree with us, and the middle ground is elusive. Between Democrats there are many disagreements, and the threads reflect this. That is why I agree with continuing to support our Democrats. No matter what the party affiliation I am not going to agree with someone all of the time. But the ability to recognize that and accept it doesn't mean I'm walking lock step with the Democrats. It means I am willing to accept I will not always get the response I want. The level of importance on any one issue will decide if I stray from the party or not, but so far I haven't. There are many good democrats I have a great amount of respect for and I trust. I hope this board doesn't dissolve into only sarcastic attacks on those who disagree with each other. If we can't find common ground here the country is screwed.

the the right wingnuts certainly know how to present fear to Middle America. They fight every one of these points with worst case scenerio's. Or worse, straight out lies.
Dems and progressives have got to get better on presentation. We have the winning side....if we tell the story correctly.

Now maybe children can stop hiding under beds and being scared of all the good those evil lefties want to inflict on them. Just hope they can squeeze their fat little, corn syruped, bodies back out.

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:popcorn:

to do his best, but he could not." -- Neil Young, Tired Eyes.

always says it well

Such anger, grasshopper! :rofl:

:rofl:

All this sarcasm is killing me.

Enjoy your brief stay.:hi:

:toast: K&R.

Which usually loses them the elections.

They love the salmonella in their eggs. Makes them a good start to the morning and wanting a stronger FDA will make them lose at the ballot box.

Just an add-on.

What are the dems thinking? :thumbsup:

:applause:

i took you seriously. i've been questioning myself because what i observe and what goes on is so friggin bad how can it go on and on and on and yet it does...thank you for re-anchoring me, and reminding me that i am not crazy, it's the world that's crazy

Most of these aren't things where the loudest of the DU population (not necessarily the majority) are being criticized as being out of touch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

If so then believe me, I know why you thought my post was lame.

I gave you the reason plainly; it's based on a strawman. Did you include anything about MIHOP theories in your post? Of course not, because that's actually some place where a portion of people here are far out of the mainstream (and I said that it isn't a majority that is out there posting weird stuff, but a loud minority, so don't tire me).

And yeah, I read stuff at that site sometimes, and I've said it just about as openly as I'm allowed to, so it isn't a secret. So do you, or else you wouldn't be asking me about it, so what of it? I've never posted there before because I don't want them to have my email address or even my IP. But Bad Cat has posted some of the more insane stuff, and has a lame handle. So? Do a search there and you'll find I've gotten mixed reviews at best.

A generic name like BadCat could have been on many different message boards, but it seems you know exactly who I am talking about.

Yes, I do occasionally read the right wing message boards. As they say it is always better to know your enemy. You see sometimes when people post on those sites they don't realize that people like me read what they have to say, and every once in a while they spill a little tidbit of information that I am not supposed to hear.

What other message board would both you and I know where someone has that name? Of course I guessed that one. And I think they think a lot of people from here lurk there. They address us all the time.

As for the rest of your post, it sounds like you're implicating me in something; whatever, it makes no sense. What would I know about you that you didn't go post on a public message board to begin with?

Osmosis?

arguing their own positions--or who don't have any positions to argue except "me, too" (cf. Al Gore, 2000 version).

True leadership includes stating your own position clearly and forthrightly and skilfully persuading the voters that you're right.

Oh, yes, and insisting that the votes be counted honestly really, really helps.

By your rationale, the weak-kneed former Democrat Lieberman should have lost utterly.

Both the Bushes were born there.

Yale is in Connecticut!

I bet they don't even have a NASCAR track.

:shrug:

I mean, why bother voting for a Republican if you've already got an incumbent de facto Republican with a residual "D" after his name?

for gas...the hell with gas mileage standard!

The idea of regulating the free market to save me a buck...that is just hogwash...

:evilgrin:

I have to confess..when I first saw the title of your post..I was thinking, "on no, not another one of these".

"I am also concerned that we are not doing enough to promote business. After all nobody in middle America cares how big their paychecks are, just so long as their boss gets a massive check to take home. The average American thinks it is absolutely wonderful that the CEO of their company makes 400 times what they make. We are all more than willing to scrape by on nothing if it means that our managers will get a bigger yacht next year."

cause i've seen FAR too many otherwise reasonable people with mostly leftish positions back that sentiment up.

perhaps it's a backlash from the anti-wal-mart movement, maybe... but i see it too much and it makes me sad and angry.

Newsflash: Most of America wants an end to the war.

Most of America wants Cheney, if not Bush, impeached.

Most of America wants an end to the Drug War.

Most of America wants affordable, single-payer health care.

Pardon me if I don't share your "concern".

Get back to me after you take another look at my OP.

This reads like the DU manifesto. I agree with what you're saying; so much so that it's barely worth my time to read it. I'd really like to read more posts that tell me something counterintuitive or looks at something from a different angle instead of the same old DU spiel that 90% of us agree with.

:sarcasm:, this one's all dry.

Middle America is against ending the war in Iraq because they have let themselves be brainwashed into believing that it is essential and protects freedom.

Middle America is against single payer healthcare because they stupidly believe that it will cost them more, and that they will be forced to pay for the health care of those too lazy to work.

Middle America is against strict protections for the environment, because they have been told repeatedly that environmentalist wackos are the reason gas prices are so high.

Middle America isn't against Haliburton, because "Clinton did it" and because Haliburton is a good company helping supply our soldiers. Or so they are told, and choose to believe.



You're right that we should not be so quick to pander to conservatives and religious nuts. But don't trick yourself into believing that average Americans are as alert and aware as people who spend several hours a day posting on and reading liberal message boards.

Its the propaganda. And the millions who really should know better, but for some reason choose to believe the RW bullshit.

That's why this OP is spot on! ;)

its how the idea is sold.

That's why Repigs have successfully managed to get enough morons to vote against their best interests election after election.

They merely posted their opinion!

You're taking this over the top, imho.

the sarcasm.

way. Middle america can not stand the fact that if the votes were counted as cast the radical Reich would be out on their collective a$$e$

Or you could be a Faux Noise anchor.

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I've been looking at your subject line, and was about to start yelling. But then I read your OP and realized it is satire. Bravo! You got me with that one. It even took me awhile to recognize it. (After I read some posts that said so.) I was so reactive that I almost missed it. Thanks for a chance to laugh at myself.

mb

That's the problem.

Seriously, you post is humorous and sadly, points out the problem we face in helping people vote for their best interests.

At least 17% of Americans believe strongly that George Bush wakes up every morning and has to "fight Satan" and "dark powers" to protect us. How do we counter that logic? Beats the hell out of me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You mean he's gotta fight himself and Dick Cheney every morning??

Hell if 17% of people actually believe that "George Bush wakes up every morning and has to "fight Satan" and "dark powers" to protect us." they are not just out of touch with us...THEY ARE OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY ENTIRELY.

,...touch with, uh,...me.

Naturally, the only ones who have claimed they know that I am out of touch,...are those who are NOT middle Americans.

Of course, the last line would never show up. But that is indeed, the bottom line, and all the ad hominem bashing of activists who work for change - Moore, Chavez, Castro, Sheehan, Nader, even Churchill and Chomsky and Zinn, is intended to obscure that basic point. They all, one way or another, challenge the rule of the Corporate Empire, and that, in their eyes, is a threat - imagined rather than real, but they buy into the propaganda and ally themselves with the monsters.

The things that MN Against Bush are generally not attacked by people for being out of the mainstream to begin with. Show me a post where anyone says we shouldn't support clean water because it won't look good. Oh, alright.

But a good 5 of the people you mention in your list truly are out of the mainstream, and people do rightly get criticized for holding them up as representative of the Democratic Party.