Off road rules....there are no rules. ATV's and private property...alarming.

I just read an article from Mother Jones today about off road vehicles using ancient rules to ride anywhere they wish:

Off Road Rules




Image from Mother Jones



You won't believe what happened next...the deputy threatened the victim.



And there was more.



And it is not just in the west. In March I found this alarming article about groups like this cutting down trees and clearing private land....and no authorities doing anything.

ATV race cancelled after cutting trees, but not considered illegal



Not trespassing.

else could possibly make a conservative's head explode?

New road will likely harm 157 year old home. Months of effort to no avail.

I am getting really nervous about all this lack of respect for private property. I really am.

"Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again."

:hi:

Sure, many say "who cares?"... right up until it's their land.

Too bad the effects of this administration aren't always felt right away.

I hate cars.Hate em.
I was hit by one walking across the street.
If you live in the sprawl you don't drive you are screwed. Car aparthied.

Alongside bias against poor people and African-Americans is automobile apartheid, born of fifty years of suburban sprawl. First-class citizens drive motor vehicles, second-class Americans walk, cycle, or ride public transit.
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2005/10/25/224914/77

Scary part about the history of car culture
it is expected to share the streets, with horse-drawn carriages, bicyclists and pedestrians……The modern concept of traffic engineering is to introduce a network of special highways, to serve the needs of long-distance travellers and to be used by the fastest automobiles (for which it is meant) …(p49 Wolfgang Sachs)
http://www.countercurrents.org/en-shiva170304.htm

What do cars got to do with fascism?
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Car_Connection_TWE.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,931084,00.html

If you don't drive here you stay home. Our city is so spread out, very poor bus service.

:shrug:

"The San Juan County lawsuit is a fight over perhaps the most contentious application of RS 2477—the claim that the statute provides vehicle access to wildlands even in national parks. According to an internal Park Service memo, if the courts agree, at least 17 million acres in 68 national parks and monuments nationwide could be affected, including every hiking path in Zion National Park."

..." That foot-dragging has turned out to be a godsend for RS 2477 advocates: If San Juan County's claims are upheld, for example, suwa estimates that 86 percent of public lands in the county would sit within one mile of a "highway,"which would almost certainly render these lands ineligible for wilderness protection, since by statute a wilderness must be roadless and "untrammeled by man."

Congress could, of course, block that endgame. Congressman Mark Udall (D-Colo.) has proposed legislation, the RS 2477 Rights of Way Act, to force counties making highway claims to prove the existence of a road and its continuous usage to the present, though the bill has so far gone nowhere. suwa's own legislation, which would turn about half of Utah's wild blm lands into federally protected wilderness (where, the group points out, people could do almost anything they do on the land now, including fish, hunt, ride horses, and run cattle, but not mine for minerals or drive vehicles) has languished on the Hill for 18 years"

I'm an avid dirtbike rider, the only place I usually have ride at is on field paths, a couple little trails in the woods behind my yard and a mx track 6 miles from my house.

I dont quite agree with everything being said about the damages they cause.

Its sad thats theirs a-holes out their that ruin it for the rest of us, and we end up losing riding placesx( Not giving up my bike anyways.

Sorry you took it that way. Yes, a few spoil it for many.

But the property rights issues is ridiculous. It should not be happening. Private property should not be subject to this.

And then some housing development pops up close by, people will start complaining about the noise and dust, or just plain hate dirtbikes/4-wheelers, and after enough complaints the track gets closed down. Wouldn't that make you say "why the hell did those people move their if they knew that track was their?!".

So without a place to ride, where can those ATV'ers ride? Are they gonna drive 50 miles to the closest track just to ride for 3 or 4 hours? Would the gas burned in that truck used to haul the bikes/ATV's to the track be worth it? What about the poor kids who love offroading, are properly trained and supervised by their parents?

Where I'm getting at here is that closing tracks for some "enviromental concern" would lead to more riders entering other's private property without permission and tearing up land that they should not be on! This is a big problem that we offroaders have with enviromentalists, tracks & riding parks get closed down, that leads to more riders tresspassing, other parks currently open will beggin to overcrowd, and with that more accident causing injuries will happen, and then the safety nuts will push for closers for those riders "safety". This is something thats gotta stop!

I love this sport and I'm not giving it up! I have great respect for the enviroment, and I'm sorry if I sound unpolitically correct people, but enviromentalists really piss me off on this topic!

then rethink your participation in it. Screwing up the environment for everybody so that a few can get their kicks is irresponsible.

But describe "screwing up the environment". I mean come on, a single dirtbike trail can grow back over in no time and it would look like nothing went through their.

Bright yellow No Trespassing signs, and Posted signs, all around the property lines.

Replace the "hikers/runners" with ATV riders/drivers and... well you'll see..


Watch.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R_fcE85Bs9A

MZr7

:)

But in all seriousness, I can see a lawsuit brought up by an ATV'er cause he/she would be badly hurt from that! Not cool at all...

Sorry.

You cannot just go on someone else's property and clear brush, drive through it, etc.

There is something missing here. Lots missing.

But it is going on.

was not actually on his property. So, he was probably in the wrong for trying to stop them, just as the driver was wrong for not stopping...

http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070329/NEWS/703290477/1004

"Property owner Ben Selser said he wasn't thrilled that trees and underbrush had been cleared on his property for the race course without his permission.

The small placards nailed to trees along the course and a flier posted on the Internet identify the event's sponsor as a group called Florida Trail Riders, a group whose Web site on Wednesday announced the race's cancellation."

..."Despite the cancellation of the race, Selser said he has reported the damage to wetlands areas to the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, which is investigating.

However, even if the race had occurred, there might not been much Selser could have done about it short of filing a lawsuit.

Although this would seem to many people a clear case of trespassing, legally it's not."

..."This kind of unregulated use of other people's private property is common in many of the so-called "land sales" subdivisions created in the late 1960s and early 1970s in the Green Swamp and other rural areas to market Florida real estate to out-of-state and foreign investors."

It also revealed how much Florida has been sold off to foreign investors.

...who didn't believe that my well placed "NO TRESPASSING" signs applied to them. The nice judge explained it to them in terms they could easily understand. He made them pay a surprisingly large fine, and told them to pick up roadside debris for about 40 hours. I wave at them as I drive by.

I loathe ATV's. I was ever so pleased that when I won that little argument.

If it's your private property, you've got some options.
Anti vehicle ditches are cheap. Fill them with water and you have a moat.
Dragons teeth are nice.
A new building and sprawling, impassable construction site right across the trail is better.
Or, if your intruders are of urban origin, the smell of a few hundred hogs can be chemical warfare.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

...or number 2, if you count Moab. :)

Ouray, Colorado is just down the road. Jeeping here has been the lifeblood of the town since the mines shut down in the 1980s. And it was the old mining roads that brought the 4x4 folks. They are truly amazing.

For context, the explosion of ATV use can't be overstated. People come here from all over the world to take their jeeps over the high passes; this year, actually two weekends ago, when I headed up into the high country, I saw an absolutely astounding number of four-wheelers (ATVs). Whether it's the price of gas, or that they're easier to learn to ride than a motorbike, I don't know, but I saw dozens upon dozens of them, and only a handful of jeeps and trucks.

BUT... what you're seeing in the above stories is the combination of the explosion in ATV use, and the similar explosion in density (housing) in these formerly rural, spread-out areas. If you own 10,000 acres of high-country patented mining claims that aren't producing, you couldn't care less if a dozen dirt bikes rode over it from time to time. If you just spent $1.5 million on an off-the-grid house to enjoy the sunsets up there, you'll be furious about it.

Counties in jeep country are embracing 2477 because it allows them to make decisions on a case-by-case basis whether they've really abandoned the roads to private ownership or not. Lots of people buy big parcels out here, then try to claim the road through it no longer has a public right-of-way. Sometimes it's no big deal, sometimes it's the only access to USFS land behind it.

It's not a cut-and-dry, "ATVers bad" deal. Boyle's law applies to people -- increase the number of particles within a given volume, and the temperature will increase. ;)

...for the sole purpose of reducing private property rights and allowing thuggery to supersede civil rights!

Living out in a rural area, ATV riding seems to be past time du jour for the modern country boy. Most have no respect other people's wishes or property. My asshole neighbor built his own private ATV track right on the border of my land which features friends and family going around and around most weekends, though this has died out since his son moved out a few months back. Many times I chased these people off my land, finally planting a thick hedge of blackberry bushes to bring home the point forcefully. In addition the trail through my woods became the ATV cut through route for awhile until I put a couple of strands of (well marked) barbed wire across the path.

Most people who ride these things, at least in my experience, have no concern for the earth, their fellow human beings, the law or even their own health and safety. I have seen, on a regular basis, ATV riders without helmets, riding on public roads(and trashing the gravel ones), carrying small children(also without helmets), small children driving ATVs that are way too big for them, and all manner of other stupidity. They don't care about the erosion they cause, whose land they're on, or anything else except their self and their own pleasure. The only thing that is slowing these idiots down is high gas prices, so at least there is a silver lining.

This isn't to disparage the legit/responsible riders out there. I know several farmers that use their ATVs for work purposes, and several riders that are respectful of where they are riding and how they are riding. But sadly it seems that the assholes are outnumbering the the model riders more and more every year, and frankly if this shit doesn't stop about the only thing that will is banning the damn things altogether.

in the second and third paragraphs, and I'd extend it to include jet-skiers.

Otherwise there are a number of times I would be hauling out my shotgun. And sadly the deaths of ATV riders continue to climb, a lot of them being small kids.

They have taken over many of the trails along the rivers in MO we have been enjoying for many years. Between the ATV riders and the beer bong canoers, the rivers are party central and we no longer go canoeing on weekends if we can help it.

The rivers are being patrolled by state water patrol more heavily this summer and beer bongs were banned. But the ATV riders are only subject to local sheriff's jurisdiction. Often there is only one officer on duty in a large rural county. Cell phone service is sporadic so calling 911 is nearly impossible.

So you have my sympathy. I hate these damn machines. We lived across the street for many years from a family that had 3 and 4 wheelers for everyone in the family. The kids rode up and down the street at all hours and NEVER wore a helmet. The 7 year old ran into a mailbox and broke his collar bone and nearly ripped his face off. Yet, a couple days after being released from the hospital, and still in a cast, that kid was out riding up and down the street once again. My kids were the same age and BEGGED us to buy them an ATV. I told them no way, I liked their faces intact.

And most of the assholes are dumb 4 wheeler riding rednecks with no helmets or saftey gear, a beer in one hand, and saying "hey, watch this!!" while he rides through a mud pit in 4wd!

As for safety, to many people it looks dangerous, but we're very willing to take the risks of ATV'ing. I'v riding for about 5 years now, I am a bit of an agressive rider but I know my limits, so far I havent gotten badly hurt yet. But if something happens, oh well...

to get close to it. I love it when these fools say how they just love the outdoors, but the only activities they seem to be able to come up with involve destroying the environment which they claim to enjoy.

Are in league with the big timber and mining companies to open up our last wildlands to exploitation. That's why this is such a huge issue. We still have 78 million acres of Roadless wildlands, and most of them qualify for wilderness protection. But Wilderness designation is a long drawn out process reqiring a vote in congress. The game that these guys are playing is to break up these wildlands with roads and ATV trails before they can be protected.

Bill Clinton banned new road construction on Roadless lands by executive order, But Bush removed that protection immediately upon assuming office, and a lot of these lands have been lost to logging roads and ATV trails in the last six years. There is legislation in congress to give them permanent protection, but it's slow going.

ATV groups and timber and mining companies have an umbrella group called The Blue Ribbon Coalition that mixes ultra right-wing philosophy with public lands management. They are very agressive and well funded and they consider all environmental legislation an affront to their "freedom." Their primary targets are The Endangered Species Act, The Wilderness Act, and the Roadless Rule.

The role of the dirtbikers in this undeclared war against the environment is to punch illegal trails into all of our roadless lands and then lobby the forest service a BLM to acknowledge and legalize them, thus disqualifying these lands from future Wilderness Protection-- because Wilderness Designation is the only thing that protects our land from logging, drilling and mining.

This is a service the Forest Service and BLM are happy to provide because they are run by Bush appointees...

relegated to wealthy land owners.

Right of way laws simply state that you cannot use your property ownership to block others from accessing THEIR property, or the public from reaching public lands. My parents place in Oregon has a ROW road across it for this very reason...the property behind them doesn't touch a public road anywhere, so the neighbors had a legal right to request an access path through neighboring property. The neighbors have to maintain the roadway and keep the gates up, but there's nothing that my parents or anyone else can do about it. I would argue that there is nothing they SHOULD be able to do about it.

Many of the access roads to campgrounds in the Sierra Nevada cross land owned by the lumber companies (Sierra Pacific Lumber is the largest landowner in the state). The State of California gets to maintain these roads across private property because of this same law...the lumber companies cannot use their ownership of the forestlands to prevent public access to public lands beyond their property.

Heck, even the beaches here in California rely on this sort of thing. By law, all beaches are public property, but in practice they tend to be surrounded by private land. Public ROW laws permit you and I to cross their land to reach the public beaches. How would we respond if those landowners were allowed to start charging "admission" to access a beach that by law belongs to every resident of the state?

Lose the ROW laws, and you lock the public out of a LOT of public spaces...by foot AND car.