3-yr old kicked off plane after throwing tantrum

I can't help but wonder...were there any adults on board this plane?

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8MR41C02.html

Flight attendants often deal with obnoxious passengers who won't listen to instructions by kicking them off the plane. But a Massachusetts couple think AirTran Airways went overboard by treating their crying 3-year-old daughter in much the same way.

Julie and Gerry Kulesza and daughter Elly were removed from the flight when the girl refused to take her seat before takeoff, airline officials said Tuesday. But her parents said they just needed a little more time to calm her down...

When I go to nice restaurants, I sit in the smoking section, even thought I don't smoke, in order to get away from unruly children.

since I carry earplugs on a plane, as well as an MP3 device with music and books, I would have used one or another of those.

If you can't behave like an adult for 3 hours, don't expect the privlige of traveling like an adult.

It's high time they made a stand on this; I can't believe how many stupid parents dont seem to understand that Tyler or Kaitlin's PSP has to have a earphones on the plane and that they can't use it during takeoff or landing.

Kudos to Airtran.

their asses out there rather than make me miss my meeting to close a multi million dollar deal!!

Alright, I'm KIDDING!!





or am I? ;)

How long were they supposed to wait? How long was the flight supposed to be delayed?

that the 15 minute delay up until that point was because of the child, otherwise I'm sure the airlines would not have been so generous after-the-fact.

I have laid bodily over the legs of a 3yo while my husband held her arms down on a flight from Philly to Baltimore because she was having a tantrum and kicking the seat in front of her.

You do what you have to do. If the flight is waiting on YOU and YOUR child, pick her up bodily and put her butt in the seat and strap her in. End of discussion.

Spoken like a true parent!

times with young children (including overseas with toddlers), and you never EVER let a child under about the age of 6 sit in a row by themselves.

More evidence of "clueless parents".

dad to the seat in front and put child next to mom. then the kid would keep the d*mn seat belt on.... further, can probably oh i dont know, interact and entertain child to stop the fuss and noise.

geeeez

one of us is always with my daughter. We've been lucky and she's never flipped out or had any kind of episodes when we travel.

You'd think that would dawn on the parents as the flight crew were talking to them....sheesh.

There were 3 seats? 2 together and 1 behind? Why would any stupid parent want to sit with spouse and have a 3 yr. old sit with a stranger?

"She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents and wouldn't get in her seat" during boarding, Graham-Weaver said.

Does this mean she was climbing under the seat to get to her parents or climbing under the seat AND also hitting her parents?

and like a poster below said if that'd been the case the attendants would have moved someone to put the child with her parents. I'm sorry but a child that won't sit in a seat so the plane can take off is a hazard to other passengers. I have plenty of sympathy for the parents. It's more for their parenting skills than their grievance towards AirTrans though.

delayed because of the child and that is why airtran isn't doing as well as they could be, I work for a low cost carrier just like airtran and we are given the highest grades among airlines in the way we treat passenger especially families, we would have moved the child to an area of the plane where they would not be a problem. and no its not southwest

:toast:

From the article:

"The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the three tickets, and offered them three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies, Graham-Weaver said."

:evilgrin:

(I'm only slightly kidding...)

:D

:D

when it comes to flying, I'm with ya all the way.

:D

She needed to be in a seat for takeoff. There's no indication that the child didn't like one part, but wanted to be in another. What if they didn't have at least 2 seats next to each other free (after all, at least one parent would have to go with her)? Or are you talking about telling some other passengers to swap seats with them, on the off chance this might get the child to calm down?

The piece may not say whether the child was already the cause of the delay, but face it, removing the family and their luggage would take time - they'd only use that option if they already thought it would be faster than getting the child to sit down - so they must have been trying that already.



If the child was in front of them, then they did have the chance to hold her. This looks like a case where a child has thrown such a tantrum her parents can't get her to cooperate. At some point, you have to stop other people suffering as a result.

how differently the story would have been percieved if the parents had said, "We only needed a moment to get the child strapped in." Then, everyone would agree that the airlines was unreasonable.

But to say they only needed a moment "to talk to their child..."

ANYONE, who has been around a screaming, thrashing, three year old knows that it is impossible to talk to them. They CANNOT process anything you are saying when they are throwing that kind of tantrum. You pick 'em up. Strap 'em in. Restrain their hands or cover up the buckle so they can't undo it and try and stay calm until the kid is too exhausted to scream anymore. THEN you can talk to them.

I do understand how difficult it can be when a child throws a tantrum in public and it is especially upsetting to the parents when it happens in a confined area like an airplane. My heart does go out to them. But still, sometimes you just gotta' be tough.

Still, the airline personnel didn't handle this one well at all. They should have helped the parents more first.

its the parents' - but they seem to have failed to recognize that.

Expecting everyone else to just put up with unsocialized children is begging for trouble. For an example of the bad/lazy child rearing taken to the extreme, look at the spoiled brat in the Oval Office. THAT is what can come of not teaching kids that they are NOT the center of the universe and they have to operate within certain cultural bounds, or accept the consequences.

Being removed from an airplane is a far better consequence than what may have happened with a child loose in the cabin if there was the slightest problem during take off. Sad that the flight crew had to teach the parents about consequences.

We don't like to have to draw the line but we do need to draw it.

These parents should be teaching their hcild about behaving, rather than teaching the child that anyone who wants the child to behave should be punished.

They had already delayed the flight 15 minutes, how long were they supposed to wait? People have connections to make and the airline has a schedule to keep. Can't really blame them..

Pick the kid up, strap them in the seat and be done with it!

I assure you, noone on that plane would complain


on the other hand, if you hold up the plane for a screaming kid, and the passengers would be ready to dicipline the kid themselves

I applause the airline for doing this.

Nothing worse than being held captive for a few hours in the same enclosed space with an ill-behaved monster child and parents who are too chicken-shit to do anything about it.

Take that, you tiny little terrorist!

Great one!:rofl:

there is'nt nothing worse then having to hear a child screem at the top of there lungs in flight or in a store cause half ass parents won't take the upper hand , take that from a father of 3 and 8 grandchildren , stop them in there tracks befor u lose control of them befor the rest of there life

They become more subtle--they may not kick and scream, but they're still self-centered, snide, and unwilling to comply with reasonable requests.

Of Bush throwing a temper tantrum on Air Force One while Dick Cheney tries to talk him down?

but I never let my kid get out of control or put her in a situation that she couldn't handle. From day one we established that

1) No means no and stop means stop
2) Some rules are non negotiable-especially safety
3) Mommy is the boss

By laws
1) We always buckled our seat belts (that pesky safety thing).
2) We have grown up manners when we are in public or face a bathroom conference (mommy is boss).
3) Temper tantrums are not rewarded (no means no)
4) We stay beside mom in a crowd (that pesky safety thing again)

It didn't happen overnight....
I never bought her candy in the check out aisle EVER.
I gave up eating at any place but fast food until she could feed herself. We worked our way up to fine dining by the age of 5 as her manners improved. It was a real treat for her to finally be able to go to a grown up restaurant and be praised for her grown up manners. We also learned to safely maneuver through a china shop (we look with our eyes and not our hands).

Was she every a kid, heck yes-but I never but he into a situation until I was sure she could handled it.

I hate little kids and babies on international flights, but sometimes it cannot be avoided. It is just too much for them and the parents. But any child over the age 5 is capable of good behaviour in most situations and a toddler can sit in a restraining seat for a plane trip. You do have to use games and diversions, but that is called 'parenting'. If they cannot behave, there is nothing wrong with driving.

PS- I did not have to beat my child. "THE LOOK" was all it took for most occasions.

I work in public schools and I have a really had time dealing with parents that refuse to parent. My daughter is the first to say I was firm, but she is also the first to tell you she is loved and considers her mom to be her friend.

I learned that they not only need, but CRAVE to know what the boundaries are. I learned this firsthand working in children's and adolescent group homes. I was too flexible and forgiving about the rules at first when I was new because I wasn't comfortable with being "the boss" and I didn't have any parenting experience.

Once I started being firm and unbending when it came to the set rules and they saw I was serious, they almost instantly started acting more respectful AND they seemed more drawn to me and were much more affectionate even. The kids wanted me to play with them and they wanted me to sit at their tables at mealtime and they just seemed to want me around. I'm telling you the difference in the way they acted around me and towards me was dramatic and all I did was start enforcing the rules and showing them that I was in charge and they had to listen to what I said or there would be consequences.

It is so true what they say about firm boundaries making children feel more secure. It's one of the most profound lessons I ever learned in my life.

My friends use to say I was too hard on my kid. There were some times I wondered if I were doing the right thing. But now that she is a teen and soon to be on her own-I am convinced I did the right thing. She is a confident young woman-smart,funny, compassionate,respectful, good work ethic-every thing I wished for. She knows she can confide in me and that I will stand by her. I am there to help her in a bind and never steer her wrong. That bond of trust was forged when she realized the rules were to keep her safe-not to exert my authority.

It seems a paradox but firm boundaries do make kids feel more secure.

I was thinking that this nightmare three year old with human doormat parents will go to school one day and I've got ten bucks says she'll be a nightmare and the parents will blame the school.

Ugh.

LOL! Oh, yes . . . "THE LOOK." Let me guess, teeth clenched, eyes squinted, accompanied by the menacing whisper of "I SAID (insert reprimand here)."

Worked on me every time. And I never, ever wanted to actually HAVE to back to the car.

they aren't even mine but 'the look' stops them in their tracks. LOL LOL LOL. No need for screaming or threatening to be physical.
I don't clench the jaws and reserved the whisper generally for one of my own. The closest man that I ever saw master 'the look' is Clint Eastwood. You can't be wishy washy at all or the look doesn't work.

You could probably retire in a week, if not sooner.

What I would love to find in stores are actual cans of WHOOP-ASS.

:spank:

;)

a real native Texan, so I don't need a can, some of us were born with it....but I do remember seeing some cans for sale in the Guardona's restaurant gift shop in Albuquerque. Their motto-:Guardona Chili Packing Co.- Our Chilies are so hot, they make your ice water.

I was one of 3 very rowdy boys who were raised knowing proper behavior around our elders. We were taught proper manners from an early age and I'm so very grateful for it to this day. I'm afraid it's a dying art.

There are very basic differences between 3-year-olds and adults, or even older children. 3-year-olds lack the reflection and planning ability of older children. This means that though they can be kind and affectionate, they cannot be truly thoughtful or considerate. On the other hand, though they can be bad-tempered or aggressive, they cannot be truly malicious. I've seen many naughty 3-year-olds improve with age; sadly, I have also seen sweet 3-year-olds turn into rather nasty older children.

Moreover, this child MIGHT be perfectly well-behaved in a familiar environment and in her normal routine. Some young children react very badly to what for them are chaotic and disruptive environments. Of course, in that case it would be better to keep them at home and avoid taking them on flights; but that's not always possible.

I would not automatically blame the parents for the child having a tantrum or being difficult.

However, as I said in another post, that's not really what I understand the issue to be about. The airline were not throwing the child off for being a nuisance, or having a tantrum, or because they didn't approve of the parents' style of upbringing - such things would in my opinion be inexcusable. They were throwing them off for breaking a rule about safety. While I don't blame the parents for not stopping the child's tantrum, or not training her 'better' not to have tantrums (that is easier said than done! - and by the way I don't have children of my own); I do blame them a bit for not forcing her to stay in her seat regardless. Not as a disciplinary issue, but as a safety issue. It suggests that they may not have taken the issue of safety all that seriously themselves (I hope they don't also allow her to not stay in her car seat).

Many travelers have connecting flights to make--15 minutes can make the difference between making that connecting flight and not.

because of this family. Still, I think the parents excuse of "needing more time" was pretty stupid as well.

Like I said, were there any adults on board?

...they still did the right thing. The departure was being held up by the kid, and in those instances, you just cannot delay the flight further.

I hate people who don't know how to fly. One girl on a flight I was on refused to check her bag (it was too big to store in overhead or under the seat) and threw a hissy fit that tied us up for 10 minutes at the gate until she finally allowed an attendent to check it:eyes: :eyes:

never had a problem in the half dozen times they have been on a plane. The key here is that it ain't the toddler that is the problem...

sP

But then, mine rarely threw fits.

I have a secret. I would get right in his face and whisper. Whisper. Whisper. He'd finally shut up to try to hear what I was saying.

Works. His curiosity was stronger than his need to throw a fit.

but after reading the whole article, I'm going to post a big whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Mom asked if the kid could sit on her lap. Yeah, sure, lady. I'm sure you won't mind when she goes flying across the plane and breaks her neck if there's a little turbulance. :eyes:

says no... but the suggestion that the odds are in favor or even up there this would happen to the child would absolutely NOT be a reason to deny the request.

And my disgust is with the parent for opting to endanger their child rather than be inconvenienced. I saw a family have this exact same argument with flight attendants last time I flew, and it really pissed me off, not for the delay, but for their lack of concern for the danger to their own child. "She doesn't want to sit in the seat," they whined. "Can't she just sit in my lap?"

No. I have no sympathy for people who want to break the rules because they don't think there's a good reason for them.

edited typo

ergo the danger must not be that great or we just care less for 2 and under

Here's one news clip where it's mentioned.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/24/earlyshow/living/ConsumerWatch/main638098.shtml

I'm not sure who you mean by that.

But yes, the danger is that great, and no airlines don't care so much, and too many people just assume that they would and trust them. To be honest, I expect the reason that the rule is two and up must occupy a seat is that they don't want anyone else hurt by the projectile.

3 yr olds are larger than 2 yr olds. Momentum = mass x velocity squared. So it might be easier to hold on to an infant wieghing 10 -20 pounds at 500 mph than a child wieghing 30 pounds plus. Also, as an airline captain, there is no way in hell I'd fly my children around in anything less than an approved car seat.

:evilgrin:

Momentum is just m * v

:D

KE = 0.5mv²

:evilgrin:

Can I argue that 1/2 is less significant than a power? Nope, I fucked up too. :D

I am desiccated with mortification!

edit: Wait! I have a Tony Snow explanation! mv^2 really IS kinetic energy, it's just a little bigger than the regular kind! Like only twice as much!


:D :rofl:

by that wonderful turn of phrase. "Dessicated with mortification." Absolutely lovely. I am going to have to use that.

That is, if I ever make a mistake.

I guess I just did. D-E-S-I-C-C-A-T-E-D.

That was on purpose, of course. Yeah, that's the ticket...

it's worth the price of the extra ticket. If you care about your kids, I mean.

Welcome to DU!

the results of an infant being held in the lap instead of being strapped in in a car in the emergency room. In a pressurized cabin that suddenly becomes unpressurized-it is worse (until the pressure becomes equalized). They ALL should be strapped in PERIOD. Once the cabin becomes depressurized-it's too late.

One shift in ICU would straighten some of these numbnuts out. The ER on tv is not like reality. Some people die horrible, meaningless, stupid deaths and there is nothing we can do to change it. When you're gone from this life, you're gone. The best and greatest thing we can do is to prevent these deaths. I get so pissed at parents that give these piss poor excuses for not seeing to the safety of their children. And it is more than not strapping them in. Unless they have an existing medical condition-get the shot-prevent the disease.Once we are in a measles or diptheria epidemic, it's too late to immunize your kids.

If you want to test Darwin's theories great-do it to yourself. Just leave your kids out of it.

Do you know how much turbulence is in the skies we fly?

How about the flight to Hawaii where the metal fatigue caused half the roof to rip off?

The Sioux City flight where the stewardesses had to tell mothers with children in laps to place them on the floor because there was nothing else to do with them?

Yep, babies in laps is smart. AND economical! :eyes:

Hopefully never.

Once they're two, they legally have to have a seat and sit in it, ideally in a car seat approved for air travel. Before then, they should for safety reasons but the FAA doesn't mandate it.

must be something up because that is simply too easy to figure out. i would never have my three yr old and up... sit in a seat in front of me without a parent next to them. i can understand how a parent would have little control if they are in different rows. i can also understand the 3 yr old not following instructions.... what does she care.... without a parent there next to her.

I think the parents were just clueless and expected the entire plane to wait on them...

story than is being reported.

Who in the world puts a 3-year old in a seperate row by him/herself while the spouses sit together? What idiots!

and a child sitting next to them wouldn't allow for it.

I don't understand letting a child sit by themselves next to a stranger on take-off. There is something not quite right about these parents.

:evilgrin:

I've never seen parents fly in a separate ROW from a toddler. One would think that whoever had the seat next to the 3 year old would be thrilled to exchange it with one of the parents. I've seen plenty of monster toddler behavior on flights. I feel for the parents who can't find a way to calm the child but if the kid isn't willing to be strapped in for takeoff the rest of the trip isn't likely to be any better. I understand that the parents were trying to get home on schedule but part of being a parent of a young child is accepting that sometimes the child isn't willing to operate on that schedule.

been a bother to passengers, attendants or us. at the most, we couldnt get the attendants away from us and the kids to do their duties and leave us alone.

I've been on flights with lots of kids who were content with whatever amusements the parents had furnished or who slept for long stretches. Sometimes even with the best intentions parents find themselves with a child who is having a bad day. That's why I wrote that parents of young children understand that little kids aren't always going to be able to go along with the adult's schedule.
Without knowing anything about this family other than what was in the news story, what is clear is that the flight was already behind schedule, the child wouldn't stay seated for takeoff, was too old to qualify as a lap child, and the flight crew made the decision to remove the family rather than delay the flight any longer.

it wasnt even hard, the expectation, on our children either. we had to be very patient with the kids, especially young and really really creative at times. but.... we werent an imposition to other people. we took the brunt of the traveling with kids, not others. it is like the bill cosby act i laughed and laughed. the business woman with her nice pressed suit, hair in place, make up just perfect getting on plane with toddler. and when she got off, a mess, hair all over, make up smeared. we surely felt like that.

i am very sympathitic with a parent with little ones on a plane and will generally spend my time, or now my older kids will help to entertain

mom and the three kids were doing - he got a lot of disapproving looks on his way back up...

A lot of people don't realize that first class is usually full because, at boarding, any remaining FC seats are assigned to frequent fliers based on status in the program among program members who booked coach for that flight.

I fly a lot, and on a recent trip with my wife and two boys, I scored three first-class upgrades. OF COURSE I took the seat in coach (although I did snag her pre-flight coffee when I passed through the cabin during boarding). Now, that family might have scored a single seat upgrade and maybe he offered it to her and she decided to have him take it. But I wouldn't take that deal simply on appearance.

and maybe they flipped a coin or something. It's not really fair to judge someone based on so little information. However, the way this guy strolled back into coach, so casual and well cared for, to check on a mom who'd been run ragged for the last couple of hours by three energetic kids, it was hard not to want to smack him... :)

and his mate was juggling an infant in a front carrier, a squirming toddler, a roll-a-board and a folding stroller. He was glared at by more than a few passengers.

the ice cream cone with the diaper bag - he probably had to really concentrate...)

I took that to mean the child was sitting on the floor in front of the parent's seat, not that her assigned seat was in a different row. The flight attendant wanted her off the floor and in the seat, which sounds like it was in fact next to them.

That was poorly written because it's so unclear.

you can't let one 3 year old pitching a fit hold up an entire plane full of people and throw off the schedules at 2 airports.

Attendants are NOT in any hurry to kick people off the plane. This must have been MASSIVELY disruptive and went on for an awfully long time, or this decision would not have been made.
The Professor

and the father said they "won't be flying" that airline again.

My responce .... don't let the airplane door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

As if he had chosen Airtran for their reputation. I mean, yes, it's a perfectly fine carrier, but it is a discount carrier. He booked Airtran because they had the cheapest fare for that route. Period. That's Aitran's business, and they do it well. But it's like walking out of Wal-Mart in a huff and saying "Next time, I'll shop at Neiman Marcus".

So bitchy .... pat yourself on that back sweetie!!!

I have no doubt the family will be using those three free round trip tickets.

that leave me believing that the airline acted on some level very inappropriately. Airlines don't just hand out tickets on a whim after tossing people off a plane. Something isn't right in this story. Certainly the parents should have plopped the kid in the seat and buckled her down. But maybe they had never been in public with their kid having that sort of meltdown and as new parents they may have felt embarrassed and overwhelmed. Okay, but let's say, we don't cut the parents any slack at all... something still ain't right in this story...

The refund and "generosity" of the airline leads me to believe that the personnel for Airtran didn't respond appropriately to this particular situation. Otherwiise they would not be handing out free tickets to that family.

They can't leave till everybody's buckled in, and she wouldn't get buckled in.

It's unfortunate that the family was inconvenienced but that's life with kids. Better that they have to wait (it looks like they didn't have to pay for another flight) than delay all the other people on the plane.

I do sympathize with the family, having had hellish trips with my kids when they were small. But if the tantrum didn't look like it would be winding down any time soon, the flight crew didn't really have a choice.

on edit--wow... when I started reading the Salon article this thread had no replies, and by the time I get back here, a zillion people have already said what I was going to say. I guess we've all been on flights with kids who won't behave... no love for the parents here!

BAD!

You're so so bad!

:spank: :rofl: :spank:

snarf

Security probably confiscated their taser before they got on board.

you turned out ok :-P

However......

:rofl:

I can tolerate a crying child, but it sounds like this kid was out of control. I can't see why they should have delayed the flight while the parents tried to calm her down - who knows how long that would have taken. And one can only wonder how the child would behave once the plane was airborne.

hits turbulence. I am a parent and i also don't like Air tran but they were correct.

calmed their daughter down so that the plane could leave. We don't know what other passengers had going on either. They may have had to get to their destinations for business or personal reasons which couldn't be delayed. Not all, but some.

etc. Planes take off with screaming toddlers in them ALL THE TIME. The airline employees can't grab your kid and place her in a seat. That's the parents job. If they're not up to it, off they go.

control his spoiled bratty kid - and knowing her as I do I think they were in the right. He's never done a thing to control or guide in her life, and has always expected everyone else to bend to her desires.

a fit on a plane. His behind would have been sat in a seat, regardless of a fit though. I think the airline was right here.

Grant it, the three of them had their moments, but there were always firm rules about how to behave in public.

Having said that, I find long distance traveling with kids a major inconvenience and I would prefer it to be mine rather than inflicting that on others. This is why we drive rather than fly if we travel with our kids.

kind of acting out right from the beginning.

tantrums and whining. whining was a bane I refused to put up with even from a teenager.

During that time, I dealt with 33 kids (not all at once—6-8 at a time in the daycare)--not counting my own two. I never once had to deal with a tantrum--until the parents walked in the door at the end of the day. The minute the parents arrived, certain kids--who behaved very well for me--would suddenly turn into little monsters. I would wait a few moments for the parents to assert their authority, but when they wouldn't, I would simply step in and tell the kid that's enough, and the child would stop immediately.

Humans are animals. We are social and hierarchical. A child senses immediately if the adult is tentative about his/her proper place in the hierarchy—and also knows immediately when he or she is in the presence of an adult who has no problem asserting authority. I don’t hit and I don’t yell. In fact, I don’t even get angry. I am famous for not having a temper--I am a jolly, silly sort of person. But when I am dealing with children, I am also the boss, and they know it.

Bill Cosby has a routine where he says eh can't understand why parents can't make their kids behave. He says, "If I say, 'Come here' and the kid won't come here, then I go over and pick him up. That's 'Come here.'"

You can't parent from a chair, telling the kid over and over to do something but not following through. And you can't bargain or chitchat your way through a child's bad behavior. I never had many rules, but the rules I had were for real. There was no bargaining and I never "begged" a child to behave. I just expected it.

I am astonished by that TV show “Supernanny,” because I am one of those myself. I am appalled at the way some people allow their children to behave, because I never had a problem getting kids to behave. We had a great time in my daycare, and because the kids were so well behaved for me, I sometimes even invited them over on the weekend for pool parties or slumber parties. (I had a big cow tank we used as a swimming pool—the kids loved it.)

On my “Who’s Minding the Children” website I have an article entitled “What You Encourage in the Puppy You’ll Live with in the Dog”: http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/puppy.html
Here is the final paragraph:

Parents should remember that behavior they encourage in their infant or toddler is bound to be carried into the child's later years. It is a good idea not to encourage behaviors that you will find intolerable very soon--or that the rest of the world will find obnoxious, even if nothing your precious baby does ever seems obnoxious to you.

BTW, I saw a picture of the family during an interview. The child, in her mother's lap, was still not behaving. She was arching her back and obviously not cooperating at all with the need to hold still for a moment. In fact, she looked like she was struggling to get out of her mother's lap.

:yourock:

(when I should have been in bed :-)) and, boy, do we think alike on parenting issues. You've got some great articles on your site. If ONLY something could be done to pound your good sense into the heads of all those clueless parents out there!

Kids suffer (and society does, as well) when parents don't do their job of teaching the child how to behave. Yeah, it's hard work. It's hard to say no, and hard to discipline and to be consistent. But it's your JOB, damn it, and your kids NEED for you to do it!

the articles on my Kidbits website. On that site I post funny true anecdotes featuring the children I have raised. The cute stories provide a pleasant contrast to the rants on my Who's Minding the Children? site.

BTW, the home page for each site has links to all of my other sites (I have ten of them on a wide variety of subjects). If you got into them, you could give up sleeping for months, since I have 450 articles spread across the 10 sites <LOL>.

him/her know. but got a chuckle. cute.

My policy is that block is for 1 week only unless (and this hasn't happened yet) I get superstalked

hey..... whatever you feel you need to do,.... is my motto

this block thing is so weird.

On Edit: His blocks usually don't last longer than a week or two.

On second edit: I am way late to this love-fest, nevermind me...

This has happened to me before. It is TERRIBLE to sit ROWS
apart from a toddler on a flight.

They are unpredictable.

They're FUCKING TODDLERS!

Someone should have switched seats so that the parent
could have been next to the kid for pete's sake.

Common f*ing sense.

Stupid passengers. Stupid airline. Overbooking is the
culprit.

should have changed seats to let parent sit next to their child. and absolutely obvious. that is why i think we must not be getting whole story

That would allow her to sit with her mommy. If she doesn't like mommy, then she can sit with daddy. This is on the parents, IMOSHO.

because of our patriot act

todya the airlines act differently than yesterday. and i know seat swapping is one of the issues that airlines are dealing with. now, i cannot imagine any adult refusing a parent to sit with their child. but then there is a lot of things airlines are doing today that i cannot believe they are getting away with. line rejecting a passenger because of a tshirt.

i am putting out all kinds of possibilities thru out the thread... the obvious, the parent sits in the single seat and child sit next to a parent. but then it is not even clear to me if the child had a seat in front.... one poster is suggesting that the kid was on the floor and all seats together. what happens when an article is not clear and thorough

the moran was wearing a shirt with the word "terrorist" in big letters- and believe it or not, there are some (usually older) folks with limited sensibilities on the issue- if the guy didn't want to turn the shirt inside out, the airline had every right(and i applaud them as well) to do what they did.
to quote george costanza- "we live in a Society"- it can't always be just about ourself and what we feel like.

the onus is squarely on the parents.

There's absolutely no good reason for the parents to sit together with the kid stinng alone. Just because they can't stand their own kid is no good reason. :evilgrin:

It happens.

the flight attendant would have requested someone to move.

I've had that happen on a few rare flights with my young children. Believe me, no one wants to sit next to an unaccompanied toddler. They offer to move lickety split.

people have REFUSED to move (they wanted their AISLE SEAT, dammit)
and have had my entire family of four (two kids UNDER 10) split up
on flights.

The airline have offered "make-up" flights to me also, and at times
I've taken them.

They overbook the CRAP out of popular flights, they don't give a damn.

enjoy flying next to my 4yo! I'll be napping! Thanks so much for babysitting!"

I wouldn't want to.

I've never had anyone refuse to move. No one I've ever met has wanted to sit next to one of my unaccompanied preschoolers.

There's no way that any flight attendant wouldn't have prevailed on another passenger to swap so the kid would be next to at least one parent. The only place they'd not put the kid would be in an exit row ... but they'd move the parent and almost any adult would take the exit. It's common for the flight attendants to ask passengers to change for good reason.

At the same time, the parents are 100% responsible for controlling the kid. Neither the airlines nor any other passenger should ever need to do so. That's clear, imho. If they can't do it, then far more is at stake than some minor annoyance.

IMHO, this is exacerbated by the obscenely sardine-packed planes, with center seats that even kids feel claustrophobic in. I absolutely detest flying these days - it's gotten inhuman, imho.

I make SURE before we're even seated that at least one of us gets a seat next to my child. The flight attendants usually take care of that for me before I even get on the plane but, even if they don't, people are happy to oblige when they know the alternative is they get to sit next to a toddler with no parental supervision. Even if the flight attendants didn't want to ask someone to switch seats, the parents damn well should have. I still fault the parents.

And AirTran has rows of 3 seats. The parents knew what they were doing.

You can buy your tickets weeks in advance, and then go online within 24 hours before the flight departs and reserve your exact seats. Usually, at that point, you'll find three seats together.

If you wait until boarding, then you probably won't have seats together.

Bad planning on the parents' part. I see parents like this all the time, though. They think that their children are society's problem with which to deal.

I say, "hooray!"

As far as "a little more time" goes, well, it was a fourteen fucking hour long flight and the monster kid remained a monster until they finally agreed to put the little bastard down with some sort of drug. But that was at about the ten-hour mark. By then I was damned near passed out myself with the help of about five Tanquerays.

I don't know much about toddlers, but I know they're a pain in the ass, especially for people who do not normally have to deal with them. So in situations such as plane flights, I say kick 'em the hell off if the parents aren't willing to give them heroin, or whatever it is they feed to kids these days.

(she's got two grown kids and I have none) I have a perfect way to handle that kind of situation:

Tie the child's hands behind her back and put duct tape over her mouth. That should do the trick quite nicely. They can remove them upon landing.

;)

at 3 years old, what is she going to be like when she's 15?

And what the fuck is wrong with adults who would tolerate (make that encourage from their behavior) these actions?

who wanted to get where they were going and not miss connecting flights - simply because this girls parents "needed a little more time" to calm her down.

  I've flown alot. I've flown short little trips, I've flown medium-sized runs (Coast to Coast) and I've flown to Europe from the West Coast which isn't the longest there is, but it's a long haul, believe me. As a father, I do have some sympathy for the parents as children will be, well, children. However, any flight, no matter how seemingly small is an expensive venture for the airline and a flight can only be delayed so long.

  Remember, on each flight many people will be making connecting flights to other destinations. Getting from Point A to Point B in an airport can literally spend most of an hour layover, especially if getting there involves getting onto a vehicle to drive you and other passengers to a new concourse, like at Dulles.

  I do not think it is unreasonable that the parents were removed from the plane and I believe the carrier was extremely generous refunding their money and giving them flight vouchers. That the father states he will refuse to fly the air carrier again just makes him look like an ass for still decanting sour grapes long after the season is over.

PB

1) Good for Air Tran - right decision.
2) I would guess that the parents were enjoying the attention as much as their child. Delay the whole flight... Everyone watching... Doesn't get much better for a garden variety bully and narcissist. Look at me! Look at me!
3) First thing that popped into my head - I wonder if they are Christian righties?

christian righties. If you want to know how christian righties would handle this just look for the posts calling the 3 year old child: Brat, bastard, spawn, kid. And even suggesting that they be physically restrained and given heroin. No reason to go to that other site anymore.

Professional White Collar Yuppies from Woburn..... Married in thier 30's, Liberal Dems, read every "out-there" book on childcare. Every moment is spent coddling the child, making sure they never have a bad minute, giving them all the latest in toddler "education" toys, etc etc etc. Oh yes and the child probably still sleeps with them and stays up until she decides it is time to sleep.

I know lots of these types. Trying to be the perfect new-agey type parents when what their child really needs is some good old fasahioned discipline.

Just a shot in the dark guess, but knowing the area, it's pretty good guess.

As a single mom of 3 my words of advice: Do not put your child in situations where they cannot behave like a child AND that you cannot leave from if necessary.

Examples:

A) Kids LOVE Friendlys (ice cream/food) and Friendly's Loves Kids.
B) Fancy Resteraunt with a wine menu and cloth tablecloths do NOT love Kids and Kids do not love "Fancy Resteraunt" with wine lists and cloth tablecloths.

A) If your child pitches a fit on an airplane you cannot take her outside nor can the other passengers get away from her.
B) If you are DRIVING and your child pitches a fit you can pull over and handle the situation without subjecting 200 other folks to it.

A) Taking your child into stores with lots of things they cannot touch frustrates both you and them.
B) Taking your children into stores where they can look and touch can be a rewarding experience for both of you.

In other words.... let your kids be KIDS.

how long should the entire crew, passengers, runway, airport, have to wait?

I think being stuck in an airplane with a screaming three year old that won't take their seat is pretty close to hell.

which I think is wrong. If we had to travel with our kids, we drove.

A sleeping child is easier to board with than one throwing a tantrum.

For some it makes it worse. Believe me, I tried it with my then 2yo and later 4yo son when we flew from Dallas to London. Fortunately, it didn't make him hyper, but he didn't sleep.

We had a little luck with a child's anti-nausea medicine on the way back, which is supposed to be more reliable than Benadryl in inducing sleep. Still, he only slept about 2 hours of the 9 hour flight.

laugh out loud today. Thanks.

baby knock em out.... nope.

:toast:

My kid loves to fly. He's either well-behaved (looking out window, reading with mommy or daddy) or sleeping. Last time we flew the flight attendant didn't even know we had a kid with us because he was stretched out sleeping on our laps the whole time.

I do think the bottle says to give tablets to kids 2 and older.

And man, the vile things said about people who DARE to complain about noisy, disruptive children blew me away.

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2556756

but so did the airlines.

I'm still left wondering where the adults were?

allowing children under 14 to fly at all?

My husband is a therapist who specializes child/adolescent, and because of that he tends to be observant of parenting when we're out in public. So many many times he sees situations where parents don't seem to be willing to be parents and set boundaries for their children.

I guess the positive side is he'll never be out of work, lol.

they removed the disruptor as is their duty under federal law as well as the decent thing to do for the other pax

instead of having the disruptor arrested or tasered, they actually provided compensation so that the disruptor and her entire family could fly at another date when the disruptor was not acting like an ass

i don't think you can fairly ask for more

:eyes: I recently got back from a long international flight where a 3 yr old SCREAMED for hours. Thank the gods I was way on the other end of the plane and brought ear plugs.

This kid SCREAMED her ass off for hours. Her little infant sister was totally quiet. But his kid was not a happy camper. She finally shut up and slept. I felt bad for her and her parents. But damn!! Gimme them headphones STAT!

I'm sure the parents aren't as stupid as they are being made out to be.

If the airline attendants had any patience I'm sure they could have worked out a better seating arrangement.

But profit rules all.

A tetn minute delay would cost thousands, much more important than people or civility. :sarcasm:

(edit: forgot to add the sarcasm tag)

I've had it happen. That's fine if you are just on vacation, but if you are trying to get somewhere to see your dying mother, and the reason you didn't make your flight was some parents inability to control their ONE child.. that's a real reason to get angry.

Leave your children at home if you can't control them, or DRIVE.

This obviously is just my opinion, but I'm tired of everyone thinking life is a constant race. Systems should take human factors into account, instead of assuming everyone will behave programatically.

Ten minutes wouldn't even be necessary with a three year old. You help the parents buckle the kid in kicking and screaming and you move on. The good part: ten minutes later the kid would be sleeping soundly because he/she would be so exhausted from the tantrum. Tantrums don't last forever.

darlings and always need more time to beg the child to behave. Such parents won't tolerate another adult trying to help them control the child--they don't even think THEY have the right to control the child. If the flight attendant had tried to help them buckle the child in when she didn't want to be buckled in, they would have freaked out and sued the flight attendant for assault or something.

In my daycare the parents didn't argue with me when I took control of a child they were letting misbehave, but they nededed me. Finding good daycare at an affordable price is almost impossible, and no one would have risked losing me as a daycare provider. Besides, the parents themselves were often rather like lost children, so they looked on me as a sort of mother figure themselves. But if I had been anyone other than their daycare provider, there is no way they would have tolerated my dealing with their kids when they couldn't handle them.

what flight to take (cheapest) and were aware that seating arrangements might be a problem. Why does everyone else on the flight need to support their decision? I fly a lot and chose flights based on the equipment and seats available. Also, I will not move to a middle seat in order for a family to be together. Its not my problem and I am claustrophobic in the middle seat.

A member of my family recently moved to Europe. They have three children - one, four and nine. The one year old does not fly well. They made a decision (tough for them economically) to go by ship. It cost a lot more but they felt it would be better for them and the other passengers. I thought that was good parenting.

I'm not blaming the parents or the airline employees, just the system.

Instead of just being glad people were put in their place, we should be able to think about how the system can be improved. Maybe alternatives to air travel should be more abundant.

It's not that hard to get a 3 year old in a seat with a seat belt on.

How about some concern for everyone else?

I believe this could of been dealt with all kinds of ways... The ice cream and candy bar way always works... Was it really this important to land the plane and throw them off... Shit it was just a little kid having a tantrum..

And the flight was already delayed.

another event and not the tantrum?

having a tantrum that is delaying a plane load of people.

Believe me, I've been the parent of a child throwing a tantrum on a plane. Sometimes, there is NOTHING you can do about it, so when I see another parent dealing with it they have all my sympathy.

However, in this case, waiting out the tantrum affected a lot of other people than the child and her parents. In the light of these circumstances, you pick up the child, strap her in, and then calm her down afterward.

The child wasn't thrown off for the tantrum, the family was thrown off for not following the regulations. Had the child been buckled in and screaming, then was thrown off I'd better understand the family's outrage.

I hate being trapped on a plane with screaming kids as much as the next person, and I do have children. Fortunately my kids didn't throw massive fits, and behaved well on planes. Granted my oldest had a horrible crying jag at 6 months on a flight. I felt terrible for him, the captive passengers and of course, myself. lol.

He wouldn't nurse, he wouldn't sleep, he just cried. Fortunately the flight was short and he did stop after 20 minutes. Gads, I'm so glad those days are behind me. ;)

My heart goes out to parents dealing with this, but as you said, there are times when you can't do anything but strap the kid in (be it the car seat or the plane seat) and then work on calming the child.

:eyes:

These parents need to understand that the world doesn't revolve around their unruly child. As a parent of two toddlers, I understand how frustrating it can be sometimes to calm them down or get them to behave. But when that doesn't occur, I understand that there may be inconveniences such as having to leave the supermarket or walk away from dinner, etc. That's just part of being a parent.

In this case, the consequence was far more frustrating to the parents then just having to leave the supermarket, but the airline is still not to blame for that frustration. Merely the act of being a parent and having to sometimes put up with consequences that stem from children misbehaving is.

I feel for the parents, as I know a misbehaving child can be quite frustrating in public. But they have no right to blame the airline. It's just part of being a parent. The world doesn't revolve around us because we have kids. That's life.

Airlines are on a schedule, thats why doors close at a certain time and you can no longer get on the plane. Which has happened to me, I missed my connecting flight by about two minutes because the first flight was late but thats the way it goes. Airlines take delays when they have to but it cost them money so they will try to be on time.

Whats next? Please delay the plane because I have diarrhea and I have to shit just a little more? These parents are pathetic for not disciplining their kid. Good for the airline.

On edit: FAA does not allow children to be seated on the parents lap due to the possibility of injury. I think this regulation stems from previous airline crashes, like the one in, was it Iowa? where one of the passengers was told to hold her child in her lap for the emergency landing and the child was thrown from her arms and was killed, the mother survived because she was strapped in.

Whats next? Please delay the plane because I have diarrhea and I have to shit just a little more?

That "depends"

about 12-15 yrs ago with a similar problem. We sat on the ground for hours with weather delays before we could take off for Chicago. ALL THAT TIME there was a 2-yr-old completely out of control opposite the aisle from me. The parents made no attempt to control her. She was running up and down the aisle with bloodcurdling screams and "I don't wanna! I don't wanna!" for HOURS. Finally when we got clearance to taxi the attendants told the parents they needed to seat the child and control her. They made NO effort to do so. Further delay ensued. We waited for them to control her. FINALLY the pilot came back and said you need to SEAT YOUR CHILD AND MAKE HER QUIET DOWN. The parents griped and grumbled and made a feeble effort to verbally control her. They never once made a SERIOUS attempt to sit her down or reprimand her in any way. At long last the pilot ordered the entire family OFF the plane (to our cheers) and we departed. He knew that if he took off with that screaming brat, it would come to blows in midair and endanger the flight.

We missed our connection in Chicago. It was the worst flight of my life.

did not try to breast feed the kid!
:spank:
:hide:

That may be the next thing they prohibit.

And have at times done things about it.
- I will tell a child to behave if the parents won't
- I will hold the parent publically accountable for the actions of their child
- I have at times "accidently" physcially intervened

The latter is often the most effective.

on occasion...

sorry, but that's the parent's job!

If someone were to 'physically' intervene, they would swiftly find an escalation on their hands!

someone else's child unless they were about to run in front of a bus.

hits you or something, after you chose to interject yourself into the situation?

Not worth it imo.

When it is a matter of safety, then by all means - but if it's just a matter of bad parenting, it isn't your job to take over.

Child is running screaming through a apartment hallway/airline aisle/grocery market uncontrolled by their parents. All of a sudden then literally run into someone and in the process is knocked hard on their bratty butt. That is the kind of physical intervention I mean. Its quite effective. Child has been stopped and it was "accidental" and would not have happened had the child not been misbehaving.

I did have one mother claim it was my fault that the child ran into my grocery cart saying I should have gotten out of her darling's way. My response was that if they cared for their child's safety they would not have allowed them to be running around. When she claimed I should not "dis" her like that, I just laughed and kept shopping.

If your child is just misbehaving in a restaurant and not "in motion". I would direct the remonstration at you, the parents..."Would you control you child or leave" kind of statements. Public shamming works amazing well, even today.

I have had children of my own, have had many nieces and nephews stay with us for prolonged periods. There is no excuse for allowing children to disrupt inappropriately.

Hubby and I went out for a quiet dinner away from our own kids. Couple in the table not far had their bratty kid who was screaming and throwing food around.

The staff didn't make them leave no matter the disruption. We left a few minutes after getting the rice thrown and complained to the management. Doubt it did much good.

assured of a quiet dinner (i.e. no loud braying laughter from adult diners next to me, cell phones etc.) I ask if Poppy can take the kids for a bit and have dinner. That's IF I want to be assured of a quiet dinner. Even adults are incapable of good manners these days. :hi:

:grr:

:rofl:

I don't think it's unreasonable to have some expectations on a child...do you?

not be made to fit into that mold.

They have long known that they are expected to be considerate of others.

of doing the responsible, PARENTAL thing of picking her off the floor, putting her into the seat, and telling her to sit down and shut up because she's bothering everybody else.

You don't try to "talk to" a disobedient toddler. They either don't understand your rationale or have tuned you out.

You physically make them do what they're supposed to do.

These parents sound like the wimpy types who give in to their child's every whim because "they can't stand to see her unhappy." :puke:

95% RW nutjobs in the town we lived in. On just about any given day there were parents coddling, asking and begging their temper-tantrum-throwing kid to get off the floor or to be quiet. That was the only affordable place to shop when we lived there and I hated it because of these RW mormons babying their kids.

We've rarely ever had to spank our kids, but you can always guarantee they will behave in public.

Must be a different planet...

Most of the Mormon parents I have known have been extremely tough... some a little too extreme...

It was really sickening to watch. I got to the point I went to the store as early as possible in hopes of avoiding as much of that as possible. There were times I left with a headache because of the numerous screaming kids.

apparently both have become a shadow of their former selves...

pitching a fit. did i walk into a freeper rally? Even one person bragging they got "accidentally physical" with children. i wonder.

:eyes:

Self-centered and impatient, too. Wee grow-ups don't have time to waste on someone else's screaming brat. I know I would've raised hell if my flight were delayed FIFTEEN WHOLE MINUTES.

and no end was in sight. How long should they have waited? Airports, airlines and people have schedule's to keep. How many people should have to re-arrange their schedule, possibly get stuck somewhere overnight after missing a connection, in order for these parents to get control of their child? Sorry but I have 3 kids of my own and would have volunteered to leave the flight if I couldn't get control of my child. You talk about being self-centered, well who was being self-centered here? Seems to me like the people who wanted to delay a few hundred people so they could learn to control their child were the ones being self-centered.

You've been a frequent flyer for years as have I and we've both seen this. Why should hundreds of people be inconvenienced (like airline travel any more isn't inconvenient and stressful enough) so a couple could enhance their little darlings self esteem.

Self-centered? Right.

countries I have ever been in...

It amazed me as an American to find out that a large part of the rest of the world loved, respected, and even coddled their children.

Some of the trollish comments I have seen on this thread tend to confirm my observations.

Here, children are expected in restaurants (even late into the evening). Staff and even patrons will fawn over and speak to children. And you know what, children respond. It is much nicer to have a little child noise than stressed-out parents trying to shush their child because they are getting the stinkeye from the spoiled middle-class patrons of some over-priced restaurant!


Although please note I am not advocating delaying a plane! Sounds like the parents were idiots, not the child!