Been listening to Malloy "bash" catholics

and you know what? Their issues wiht children probably started at the Nicean Council... for sure at the Lateran Council

they will not be solved until they allow their priests to marry. By the way, been writing a sci fi book for the roleplaying game, and you know what I will share the bit I found on this... and inserted into the book... and you guys can judge for yourselves...

The first Apostles married and had children but this was rarely taught to the faithful. The Council of Elvira in 306 was the first time where celibacy was sug-gested by Church leaders. In 325 the Ni-cean creed mandated that priests could not be married after initiation, and in 352 the Council of Laodicea forbade the ordi-nation of women. All these rules were formalized at the Lateran Council in 1123. Nothing else happened regarding marriage or celibacy until the Church faced several scandals at the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st.

What do you know about these priests? Do you presume that they don't/didn't have adult sex?

higher in the catholic church than in faiths that allow in some cases demand, their priests marry. The solution is simple, but one that by tradition will be almost imposible to force them into, unless they continue to have atracting people into the priesthood.

The statistics are out there for those who wish to search for them. But this did not start yesterday

ends child abuse. And you still don't know anything about the sex lives of these priests beyond what's printed in the press and elsewhere. They can all marry as far as I'm concerned but that won't stop abuse. Its not about the sex, its about the power they derive from knocking around the kids and youth combined with an outrageous sense of entitlement.

The church doesn't care about solutions to the problems of child abuse within their ranks. They care about the negative PR and money. That's it. The rest is all lip service, even among themselves.

when even the Papacy got involved with documents stipulating how the clergy should behave

Moreover, the celibacy rule was written for inheritance reasons, not religious ones

You should check out author, David Rice, for a full explanation. Celibacy actually began as a way to assure purity during pagan rituals.

Author Rice presents a comprehensive historical look at celibacy in his book about resigned priests entitled, "Shattered Vows". Rice credits Catholic theologian Edward Schillebeeckx in "The Church with a Human Face" with asserting that clerical celibacy originated in "a partly pagan notion of ritual purity,". At the Council of Nicaea in 325, a proposal to require celibacy for all priests was defeated and at the Council of Trullo in 692, marriage rights for priests were reasserted. (Rice page 161.)

Schillebeeckx says that, first in the fourth century came a law that forbade a married priest from having sexual intercourse the night before celebrating the Eucharist. However, when the Western Church began celebrating a daily mass, abstinence became a permanent factor for married priests.

"At the origin of the law of abstinence, and later the law of celibacy," said Schillebeeckx, "we find an antiquated anthropology and ancient view of sexuality." (ibid) Rice follows with a quotation from St. Jerome which expressed the views of both pagans and Christians at the time that, "All sexual intercourse is impure."

Because the resulting implication of a priest living with his wife like a brother led many priests into "deplorable situations," in 1139, the Second Lateran Council forbade the marriage of priests altogether and declared all existing marriages involving priests null and void.

"One does not approach the alter and consecrated vessels with soiled hands," had been the pagan view and then became the cornerstone for compulsory Christian celibacy. (ibid) Other not-necessarily concurrent or chronological developments also contributed to the establishment of the celibacy requirement for catholic priests. More bishops began to be chosen from the ranks of monks who had already taken monastic vows of chastity. Another factor was an economic development as the Church began acquiring his own property. According to Rice, there was a real danger that legitimate children of priests could inherit and deprive the Church of its land. At the time, common law prevented illegitimate children from inheriting property.

Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologia II-IIa, 88, 11)opposed the idea that celibacy rulings should be considered as a part of divine law. Aquinas contended that the celibacy requirement for Catholic priests was merely Church law that could be reversed by any time by papal or conciliar authority.

When the Reformation indirectly brought forth the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's, the Roman Catholic Church reformed itself and remodeled the priesthood to its present form.

later the Latern Council WAS land, and land ownership due to the pesky inheritance rules in the middle ages

They could not afford to have the son of the Cardinal inherit the land over which the Cathedral stood, and that was their primary concern.

Everything else was used to sell it to the people.

Ironically it has created OTHER problems for the church over the centuries that have led to economic damage.

advocated the 'divinity' of celibacy (repub's patriotism at all costs) vs. the 'hold everything, this church is taking off and land and money are now at stake' types (the neocon's who lie through their teeth).

No way they will repeal any of it now.

1. The priesthood allows close contact with children and adolescents
2. Many pedophiles hope that the celibacy requirement will put an end to there urges.

So yese, celibacy has something to do with it, yet allowing marriage isn't the answer, because reason #1 is still a factor.

Many gay men found sanction in the Church after being rejected by secular society.

And pedophiles saw it as an opportunity to pursue their prey.

(And no, I'm not equating the two)

or did you mean something else by "their issues with children"?

or are you telling me that the Council of Nicea and the Lateran council did not deal with this issue and forbid marroage?

That comes as a surprise to me

http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_vaticans_billions_1.html

http://www.cephasministry.com/catholic_vaticans_billions_2.html

Just change the number in the html.
for chapter.


renton, N.J. — Under a new law designed to protect minors, local police departments will now be required to inform residents any time a known Roman Catholic church moves into their neighborhood.


New Jersey State Senate debating Egan's Law
The law also mandates that Catholic churches register with authorities, wear electronic monitoring devices, and be prohibited from moving to within a half-mile radius of a school.

A follow-up to Megan's Law, enacted by New Jersey in 1994, the so-called "Egan's Law" is named for Cardinal Edward Egan of New York and Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, who are both accused of covering up sexual abuse by priests under their authority. Like Megan's Law, Egan's Law is expected to spread quickly to other states, but for parents in towns across New Jersey, it's on the books none too soon.

"Last year, we discovered that a Catholic Church had been in our neighborhood for 30 years! And nobody told us!" said Ruth Harper of Redbrook, N.J. "My sons used to walk by that church every day on their way to school. Even now I shudder to think of what might have happened."

"I always told my kids to steer clear of that place," added neighbor Scott Carlyle. "But that's because there were a lot of strange people going in and out at odd hours, even at midnight on Saturdays. I was worried it was some kind of druggie hangout.

"To think the whole time it was a Roman Catholic Church. Now I know why they had all those stained glass windows —. so nobody could look in."

---------------------------------------

(instead it's only $660,000)

sexual frustration or sexual orientation. Pedophilia has to do with the perpetrator having experienced violence and ritualistic abuse as child. That is what I learned from experience as a social worker, and it is backed up by studies.

When will people get that?

The reason that there are so many pedophiles in the Church is because of the opportunity for the pedophile to be alone with and victimize the child, or youngster.

(Technically, if an adolescent that is involved, it is not 'pedophilia;' it is 'pederasty,' for example.)

But, right now, is it not true that married men can become priests, and still stay married? I believe the church honors that; and yet, vast numbers of people aren't willing to become priests.

Catholic parents need to insist on safeguards, and preclude these kids from being alone with any church representative; that would be good for the church rep as well as the kid. The Hierarchy needs to support that.

have been sexually abused themselves.

The abuse tends to have been ongoing and sickeningly repetitive in its nature ('ritualistic' or having a 'ritualistic quality').

Does that sound better?

I handled thousands of cases, and, frankly, never met a perpetrator that had not been systematically abused themselves as a child.

Hang on.

On edit:
"Two-thirds of sex offenders in prisons victimized a child." I would say that the other third just aren't admitting it.
http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm

I do think that you and I agree that the Church permitting marriage will not solve the problem - not permitting church reps to be alone with a child (not their own) will solve the problem (not allowing the pedophile opportunity). That's what I am saying.

Frankly, after my experiences, if people are wise, they won't allow themselves to be alone with any child that is not their own. That prevents false accusations.

it makes one wonder what they went through.

what is ritualized abuse vs. what is your garden variety in the home screw the kids type---lots of roads to hell. I am aware that studies, good studies, are rare for both victims and perp's, however you want to call it. Violence is a running theme in the lives of the perp's, sex abuse of any kind is a close second but I had not read that all or most perp's had been abused in a ritualized manner.

Nothing really prevents false accusations as some abused kids will target someone who is not their abuser. Hopefully an alibi rescues anyone erroneously accused.

'ritualistic' abuse is. I'll just call it 'systematic abuse' or 'habitual abuse with certain ongoing features,' or whatever.

Rape and sexual abuse is violence; it's assault and battery. It's never non-violent (there's always a degree of it, and the threat of it).

In investigating thousands of cases of alleged abuse, I came across false accusations very rarely. It's just not something the actual victim lies about, generally.

Just my two cents' worth.

The point is that the only way to prevent this type of abuse is to make it a policy not to have church staff (of any church or temple) be alone with anyone under the age of 18. Each staff member needs another adult there - when teaching or whatever.

What's so bad about that message?

ritualized abuse will probably disagree with your broad brush. For many, identity is a huge issue and identification with having been ritualistically abused in or out of a cult is important to them.

Since you sound fairly knowledgeable about the subject, you'll also know that most "truth" about abuse is an ongoing process even into adulthood. Our society continues to sanction it whether accusations are deemed true or false.

I'm not trying to minimize one experience over another. Every experience is tragic to the victim involved. To suggest that one type of victim suffers more than another - well, that's an exercise I won't indulge in.

There is no 'garden variety' abuse; every victim suffers; and, I don't bother to give the suffering a number on a score of 1 to 10. I just see to it that the victim gets help, and advise people about preventative steps.

Your nitpicking with me is irrevelant to the central point - the perpetrator is not just a sexually frustrated person or a person with a certain sexual orientation; there is an overwhelming chance that the perpetrator was abused as a child himself - systematically and repetitively.

The Church can take steps to prevent it; that's the point.

I never denigrated a victim; you read that into it.

Now, this discussion is ended. Have a nice night!

Nor do I think that your comments have denigrated victims. Rather adding to our discussion with knowledge I have to give. If that's nitpicking its news to me.

This excerpt was from the Philadelphia Inquirer last Oct. in its endorsement of Bob Casey over Rick Santorum...


"He bears responsibility for mixing the toxic elixir that poisoned the Republican-led Congress with lobbying scandals. Santorum led a relentless, heavy-handed effort to install only Republicans in top lobbying jobs."

"He linked a priest sex-abuse scandal to Boston liberalism; scolded moms for working if they don't need to; and seemed to equate homosexuality with "man on dog" sex. He is the annoyed visage of the culture wars."

"Santorum was head salesman for Bush's wrong-headed plan to privatize Social Security. He tolerates huge budget deficits."

"A Philadelphia charity founded by Santorum has blurred the lines between charitable giving, federal grants and political campaign operations."

Sounds like a lotta work.

:evilgrin:

hardly a case for mental retardation.

of growing up in a monastery?

could think of something better to do in life than bugger kids. Lots of man-youth sex in monasteries and seminaries too tho'.

You'd be rather lucky in the middle ages to grow up in a monastery.

in an interview in the NY times.

faction of the church along with Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas. Nuff said, IMHO....

for allowing Rove to "play him like a $2 banjo".

Catholic rectory................they burned the carpet with candles.

These were initiates, something is terribly a miss
but as a member of the mafia or a mafia.


Persecution is profitable.
philosophy is not
that is why I choose to take the hemlock.

No wonder the true believers of all stripes think they can get a pass, whatever their crimes.

Join the Club of the True Believers and get a free pass!

the mods won't.......but, OK,

a Hypocrite asshole that can not defend that shit?

of the "one true faith" and you will get the free pass. After all, money talks.

Known gropers and rapists? The Bishops are oh so frail and they can't get their frickin' asses together enough to turn these bastards in? They can't wait to proclaim themselves martyrs but they're too frail to face up to what they have done without humongous effort on the part of the very people they have hurt?

Utterly ridiculous. They are a club of pampered elitists who would sell their mothers to get to the top of the heap as surely as any CEO in America.

And then "the one true faith"

:rofl:

It's always hilarious when one group thinks their little set of delusions are true and everybody' else's delusions are wrong. Well, it's hilarious until there is an Inquisition or a suicide bombing...

ALL religion is based on superstition, irrationality and suspension of reason.

so the claim to be the one true faith is precisely where it fails.

even if the Catholic Church has managed to make it look like their province.

This is about how we take care of children.

Btw, I'm hoping to see a Kurovski/Wetzelbill ticket. :D

lol

:hi:

He WAS Bashing the HIERARCHY of the church

He was NOT Bashing the followers.

Big Difference

There are many who cannot tell the difference... and we both know it... you did hear the caller that told him that he WAS bashing them, didn't you?

http://imgred.com/

I don't think it was THIS Elvira who suggested celibacy.

New Priests

Twelve priests were about to be ordained.

The final test was for them to line up in a straight row, totally nude, in a garden while a sexy, beautiful, big-breasted, nude model danced before them.

Each priest had a small bell attached to his willy and they were told that any priest whose bell rang, when she danced in front of him, would not be ordained because he had not reached a state of spiritual purity.

The beautiful model danced before the first candidate, with no reaction.

She proceeded down the line with the same response from all the priests until she got to the final priest. As she danced, his bell began to ring so violently that it flew off, clattering across the ground and laid to rest in nearby foliage.

Embarrassed, the priest quickly scrambled to where the bell came to rest. He bent over to pick it up......

Then all the other bells started to ring....