Here it is... Conditioning of the US to accept a 'draft' ....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070716/iraq-pace/

Mention is made of the possible need to increase troop numbers along with concern over soldiers who have already done multiple tours of duty.

Military brass already realize that by Sept there will not be any more troops left to send. And recruiting has now fallen below the twice adjusted downward recruiting quotas for the Army.

Add to this scenario the release of the NIE that literally shouts that terrorist attacks will be carried out in this country.

And then there is the possibility of an attack on Iran being pushed by Cheney/NeoCons.

Any way you cut it, the US is being conditioned not to bring the troops home but to accept a need for a troop buildup.

The need for a military DRAFT....

HELL NO!

That would be the death of the GOP as we know it (and they know it too).

IF this plan is followed, Bush/Cheney and the NeoCons will just thumb their noses at both parties.

fuck no, we won't go!!

Including the relations of politicians?

Would it mean that chickenhawk war supporters
would actually have to fight?

Would it mean a speedy resolution to the conflict
because the rich and the powerful would not be
willing to send their sons and daughters to a war?

A draft would indeed make this stupid atrocity more
like Vietnam, bringing people to the streets and
sparking campus protests.

Hmm...

will send the American people out into the streets.

The sooner the better.

If there is a draft, educational deferments will be limited to the current semester. You will still be able to get out if you are a practicing ordained minister. You will be able to get out because of a hardship to the family (very hard to prove) and there will be two types of conscientious objector status, All registrants will be required to fulfill an alternative service and it will also include women.

People will not go and they will not follow this leader especially, I believe this is when the people will take to the streets.

just like during Nam.

Hate to say it, but it might end up being a lucrative retirement for me. Very lucrative.

spot on the client list!

I'm only half-joking.

Or I could even be your paralegal...

http://www.serv.net/~techbear/writings/FAQ-CO.html

I've been meaning to get this updated for a while. I will get around to it, I promise. :hi:

I doubt there will be many 'hearings' conducted if there is an announced need for an immediate draft.

There will certainly be a 'process' to challenge an induction on stated limited grounds, but it is unlikely that an appeals process will give a lot of relief except in the most obvious cases.

Assuming that procedures for a new draft follow the pattern of the previous draft, it will be possible to challenge induction on a number of grounds, including conscientious objection.

I do not trust this ADMinistration to conduct such an appeals system any more than their military tribunals would ensure 'fairness' for those held in Gitmo.

Of course, those of means will find a way to delay the process for their sons and husbands.

I am pretty certain that Supreme Court precedents have established a firm right to appeal induction, especially on the grounds of religious beliefs. While there is no guarantee that such rights will remain under the current neo-conservative Court, it does provide a solid basis for challenging involuntary abduction... excuse me, induction, in civil courts and under civil law, at least until the Supreme Court decides otherwise.

I agree that there is a long history of recognizing 'conscientious objectors' and a structure for confirming that and providing alternative service.

However, the appeals structure may not lend itself to determining thousands of young men challenging their induction. The constitutional rights that we all possess are worthless if there is no forum which will give those rights authority and power.

It's a very difficult process.

It is something I have considered for a couple of years now.

In may experience, us "grown-ups" who've already been in the working world for a while tend to do somewhat better in law school than some 23 year old who just graduated from college. For me, it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made, but that doesn't mean it was easy in any way.

the BIGGEST difference between the political climate in the u.s. surrounding Iraq and and during Vietnam is the lack of a military draft.

you want the return of TRUE political activism, re-instate the draft.

then, we REALLY WILL change the world.

was inititated? I thought I had read that somewhere but being originally from Canada, my US history is a little rusty.

Before the draft was returned to a lottery-based draft with very few exemptions, those with the weakest political voices were most subject to the draft. The "Fortunate Son" syndrome was all but eliminated with the revisions to the draft laws ... and it didn't take but a virtual instant for the withdrawal to go from lip service to plan to execution.

When we also consider that, even then, the reserves and guard weren't called up (due to LBJ's political calculus), while they ARE under today's priorities, the "Champagne Units" of the various national guard forces (e.g. Smirk in the TANG) have been all but eliminated.

When EVERYONE bears an equitable exposure to military service, then everyone has skin in the game. That's democracy, imho.


(I strongly believe everyone should be required to register for the draft - male, female, gay, straight - and bear an equitable burden.)

I truly wish I knew more about US history and I admit that I do learn a lot here and from my wonderfully smart hubby who happens to be at work.

So, out of curiosity, did they actually prevent people from leaving the country and moving away? I am not trying to be a devil's advocate or anything but since I am against this war I actually told my nephew if they reinstated the draft I have relatives in Canada who are more than willing to take him in. I know this may get me flamed but I hate this war and I am fighting against it but I do not want my peace loving nephew to get shot over * and his illegal occupation. And, yes, if the war lasts long enough I will be moving my sons back to Canada as well.

I may be flamed and called a hypocrite but as I told my husband, I would have moved back to Canada after *'s first term if it had not been for him. My husband's family is down here and he refuses to leave them. I do not want a divorce and I believe my kids should be with their father and mother. Besides, I love my husband and would hate to get a divorce just because I do not like the piece of shit excuse we have for a pResident. My husband has, however, agreed to move to Canada if the boys get old enough and there is a draft. UnAmerican? Perhaps, but while I am here my whole family is protesting and calling their critters, etc.... I am doing what I can but U refuse to give up my boys for that excuse of a human, *. My husband and I have planned for the eventuality. We just came into a small bit of money that we were going to put into our mortgage but now we have decided to invest it so we have some liquid cash if we need to jump country borders at some point. Sad, but there it is.

Those who left the country when they were drafted were charged with draft evasion (not an extraditable crime for many countries, including Canada) and were subject to prosecution if they returned to the U.S. There has never been a prohibition (or any approval required) on people emigrating to my knowledge. Clearly, if they were citizens and received a lawful induction notice then they'd be subject to prosecution for failing to report. (Then the amnesty was granted - so they got a free pass to come back.)

As someone born and raised in the Detroit area, it wouldn't have been massively inconvenient for me to cross the river and take up residence in Windsor or even Toronto. (Hell, it's little more than a commute! Many people were employed in Detroit and lived in Canada.) I know people with members of their family who'd done so. It was quite easy for family to visit them in Canada, even if just for an evening, so it wasn't like being a Vietnamese refugee. I considered it. I couldn't bring myself to do it, in some large part because it would've merely exposed someone else to go in my place - perhaps someone with less likelihood to survive it. But first and foremost, I believed then as I believe now that it's part of being a democracy - and the people MUST make their will superior to that of narrow interests or we forsake our own self-determination.

... when he came into office. I understand that Canadians were not happy about it at the time.

Last I heard, if a US soldier crosses the border into Canada, they will be returned to the US.

Military personnel, already inducted and sworn, 'enjoy' a very different status under the law - even international law.

... and how they might apply to deserters and/or draft evaders. Clearly, any change in extradition for draft evasion would be purely academic unless and until the draft were activated. Desertion, however, is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

I'm quite dubious that there's any agreement to extradite draft-evaders since Canada has no draft and (afaik) extradition only applies to crimes that are recognized AS CRIMES in BOTH countries.

I wonder what happens then? For instance, the minute the draft is reinstated I would be looking to send my nephew up to Canada and about 6 months to a year before my kids become draft age we would move back there. And there are always people willing to marry so others may stay in the country. When I went to college a friend of mine married someone so they could get citizenship.

You are always a font of knowledge and you are very intelligent (and respectful) in your answers.

I think I might feel badly about escaping to Canada (if there is a draft) except that it is just doing what I have wanted to do for the last few years of this pResidency anyway. The other day my husband asked if it should make him uncomfortable about how much I have thought of where the kids and I would move if he were to die and should he be watching over his shoulder. (he, of course, was joking) I explained that it is not that I have thought so much about where I want to be when he dies as much as that I have thought a lot about where I would move right now if only he would move with me. His last wife cried and threw temper tantrums until they moved to where her family was and I know that killed him being away from his family.

I wish we could just erase the last few years and have a do over.

Imagine that. :eyes:

Once we withdrew from Viet Nam, the problem was in downsizing the military, NOT obtaining new recruits.

Sheesh!

How about this: The war in Vietnam would very likely have continued indefinitely but, after draft laws were equalized, the Powerful decided it was better for the country to "duck and run" than their sons. Better? :hi:

:hi:

:patriot:

My generation was raised on John Wayne movies and enjoyed an overall "we are the good guys" self-assessment. Plus we had beaten back the "evil doers" of German, Italy, and Japan. So naturally we would go to Vietnam and stop communism before it saturated our American way of life and stole our freedom and liberty. Such ingrained thought took time for a paradigm shift. With Iraq, though, we are already savvy to the machinations of the power elite and are less likely to believe their propaganda. We know now that they intend to scare us with "terrorism" just as the generation before scared us with "communism." But it won't work this time.

No way in Hell are we more likely to believe them if they simply institute a draft...

There has been a rejuvenation of the Draft Board recently, with millions spent to bring them up to speed and to make sure all the boards are fully staffed so that it could be cranked up in a matter of days.

Look at how the Patriot Act breezed through Congress after 9/11.

A call for a military draft might get the same reception once people realize how few National Guard are here AFTER a domestic terror attack.

And the nice thing about a draft this time around is that it will be a lot harder for the privileged to hide out in national guard units.

Just try and 'condition' the millions of young people who were among the first to catch on about the administration. They have no desire to fight in this war, nor will they.

What will the government do? Arrest all of them? Where will they be kept, and with what army will the arrests be done?

a relative handful of Americans are affected--bring it on!

If they bring back the draft, we're moving to another country NOW so that my son won't be charged with draft evasion in 10 years.

I can't guarantee that a Democrat will be president when gets draft age; therefore, I'd move my family to England or something.

and there is the problem of Iran and Pakistan looming in the future. If military action continues to be pursued as a first resort, a draft is inevitable--HOWEVER, the prospect of it may inspire the American people to react just the way you did, which might force a change in ChimpCo's war plans. I am willing to accept it, and I am speaking as the mother of two boys (11 and 12)--simply because I don't think it will last--it will collapse under intense public opposition, and so will the policy that requires it. It will FORCE diplomacy, at least on some fronts.

but our kids are very young. He will go if this is still going on when the kids get older and if there is a draft. In the meantime, if the draft were to be reinstated in the next while, we will join the Quaker church around the corner from us.

I am totally against war and fighting of any kind. My husband's family started to get into a tiff through an email and I had to shut that out. I do not like to verbally fight and am vehemently against the physical type. On top of that, *'s war is illegal and no way will I offer up my children to his false Gods of money and power.

EXTREMELY unpopular. That moment is long past. Plus, aren't there still troops posted at bases around the world?

remember Viet Nam as well, if not better than the rest of us.

This will be a desperate act by desperate people.

A Cheney/NeoCon inspired war requires expansion of the theatre, more troops, and more indiscriminate bombing that will kill enemies AND civilians in massive numbers.

It is the ruthlessness of their plans that would absolutely horrify the public if they had any idea what was being planned.

And they are willing to sacrifice the lives of our military on the ground to accomplish their objectives.

IMHO if there were another 9/11 type terrorist attack 'inside the US' the public opposition to a draft would melt away.

And don't forget that UK assessment this week that Afghanistan is virtually lost unless there is a massive infusion of troops there right away.

Time a domestic terror attack with a massive attack on the Green Zone AND coordinated attacks that bring down the Al Maliki (US puppet) Government and the Karzai(US puppet) Government in Afghanistan.

There would not be enough troops to address all of these urgent events at the same time.

Hell, I bet Cheney and Halliburton are working on the finder's fee numbers as we talk.

:shrug:

:bounce: Oh and if they want a draft, start with the supporters of the occupation. In fact, start and end with them.

Promises of citizenship is still the plum they can dance in front of their eyes. Pie in the Sky.

so 'outsourcing' the service is already going on.

We are going to feel even more 'vulnerable' if there is another 9/11 type terrorist attack inside the US. Our National Guard and their equipment have been deployed in huge numbers to Iraq.

Al Qaeda plans a terrorist attack 'inside' the United States which is coordinated not only with events occurring in Iraq and Afghanistan and possibly Iran, but is designed to be implemented upon the United States being struck by a major natural disaster(ie. Katrina-style hurricane).

Imagine citizens having to deal with a Major Hurricane coming ashore AND a domestic terrorist attack simultaneously.

They can wait until the conditions are right...

We are not talking about instituting a draft today.

People who are afraid, who have been attacked, will accept a revitalized 'draft' if they believe it is necessary.

Once again, look at the passage of the Patriot Act right after 9/11. It would have never passed in its present form if it had been proposed 6 months later.

Wake up 'merica!

Should the draft be reinstated, I will be first in line to threaten "homeland security" by opening an "underground railroad" to move all objectors out of the country. Starting with my two adult sons, and my young grandson.

I may have pacific tendencies, but the mother grizzly within draws the line at any threat to my children, biological and metaphorical.

they know from Vietnam that woke up the American people, and they do not want some Americans to wake up. They are abusing our troops by numerous tours of service to *'s illegal occupation.

There is no way without a draft. And strange as it sounds, this scenario is indeed possible.

An attack on Iran would bleed over to Syria and Lebanon, creating a regional Middle East war. We already have a threatened presence in Iraq. Add one 9/11 styled terrorist attack inside the United States.

I have been hearing pundits say that bush needs to let the american people know what is going on and he has been coming out for years saying " I am protecting you, AL Qaeda, AL Qaeda" and they all were afraid to tell the truth. A lot of people don't know or realize the involvement of Bushco in the conflict in Lebanon last summer. He is starting all types of uprising that is why they keep saying it is the long war.

to leave a Dem president in such a fiasco that reinstating a draft will be unavoidable and pin - able on Democrats.

There was no talk of a draft then, but the local boards here are fully staffed.

I have always been suspicious of the need to fully fund in the millions of dollars and fully man every available slot on all local draft boards.

I would suspect that the local boards would be last in the chain to know anything before a new draft cranks up.

so much in fact, that the people who do the recruiting and training for the positions don't think they'll have their jobs much longer.

First, they would likely institute a 'special skills' draft. Then move on by degrees until they arrive at a general draft.

I can hear them now saying it is not fair to just burden those with special skills, everyone should serve.

and if Bush attacks Iran, it will be on and they will begin saying it straight out as some have been saying.

The best worst-kept secret is that the volunteer Army is not large enough to cover all the possible scenarios we could be in soon.

as though we are stupid and don't get the point, I have been watching every since this occupation began and before and they have been playing this little game of start the surge, we are winning, give us more time and the recruitment is up.

There main line is" We have the strongest fighting military in the world" Did anyone question them on this point? No. They thought they could keep playing this game and now it can't be hidden anymore from the formerly uninformed. I have been posting this every once in a while and there is always someone who wants to say it won't happen but, they have been trying there best to put us in a situation where everyone will have to fight if they keep this up.

Everyone who seems to think that they won't strike Iran needs to look and listen to Newt GRinchgrich and some other neocons, these nuts think that they can really control what goes on over there and they haven't learned yet.

and add to that the idiotic statements of Sen. Joe Leiberman calling for military action against Iran.

This is headed the wrong way, and Dems need to understand that as the holders of the Majority in Congress the electorate is going to hold them responsible if there is a massive implosion.

The purpose behind the surge had nothing to do with "winning" in Iraq.

The dems will get "stuck" with calling for a draft.

but they are trying to time it for the next president while in the meantime, they are digging deeper and deeper, while claiming that they are fighting terrorism. They may think that they are but they don't know how they only make the situation worse.

Because that would force people into the streets and once they're in the streets, they may never go home again, which means that they will demand more than just an end to the war.

IF a suitcase nuclear device is set off in a large US city, the mood of this country will change immediately.

I don't say we should never have a draft, because there could be a situation where one is warranted.
I do say that the present occupants of the White House are not beyond exploiting the above situation to carry out their plans, and that includes a 'draft.'

Chaos and fear -- created passively (Katrina non-response) or actively (9/11?) -- are Neocon "tools" and "creative destruction" their method for "re-ordering" society.

And they don't give a damn about "re-ordering" around real democracy and the constitution.

Rich kids in college should NOT be exempted from the draft as they were in the 1960s.

The sacrifices being made in Iraq should not fall disproportionately on the working class Rich people benefit from the spoils of war, put their own relatives out on the front lines, this war will be over very quickly.

..I will not go and fight for no reason other then to be a target! FUCK BUSHCo and their warmongering bullshit!

Im a Gay Atheist, fuck off!