Not Impeaching Is Offensive.

I sit here reading how Harriet Miers ignored a subpoena and just decided she would not show up to answer serious questions about the * misadministration. It just burns me up. It feels as if these folks are giving us the finger and telling us we just can not do anything to stop them.

I have contributed to a lot of impeachment threads as of late and I gave reasons that you mostly can find in Bill Moyer's superb show on impeachment. I have heard all the people who put party before what is best for the country and say they are afraid our numbers will be hurt. I have heard people say we won't get impeachment anyway so why even try? I have heard a lot of things and I hope, at least until now, I have come across as being respectful of your opinions.

Now I am ticked off and that is being polite. Forget Bill Moyers and all the good reasons there are for impeaching. Let's even forget the past crimes of the * administration. I want to concentrate, for now, on how these people are RIGHT NOW obstructing the law and about future crimes they might commit. These are the most lawless people I have ever seen in my entire life. They are breaking the laws by ignoring subpoenas. They seem to break a new law every week so I wonder what might be next. Hey, I wonder if dimson will invade Iran and have the rest of the world come after us. Or perhaps he will start WW III! I wonder how many more Americans will die because of him and I am not just talking about Iraq but think about Katrina and other incidents like that. I wonder how many more people in general will have to die because this piece of waste is in office. I wonder how many extra animals will become extinct due to our ignoring global warming. How many extra polar bears will die? I know if we addressed global warming right now there would still be animals dying but how many could we save, in the end, because we addressed it right now?

The point is, the man is dangerous and we do not know what he is likely to do. Did KBR build those prisons for us or Mexicans? Either way it is offensive. And it is offensive that we are allowing these people to continue to commit crimes and not try to impeach them and then possibly go on to prosecute them. Those who are against impeachment, have you seriously weighed all the crimes committed and those that will be committed and are you willing to have the responsibility of that madman running loose on your conscience? I'm not because I find all of their actions offensive and I am truly ticked off. (to be polite)

These evil, crazy and incompetant lawbreakers must be removed.

I hear you and I'm with you on impeachment. It is one of the safeguards put in place to protect the Constitution. As a country we need to begin this process and allow the people of the country to hear it all. Most do not know of all the crimes committed.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

I think you will fit in well here. I agree most are woefully uneducated about *'s crime spree. The crimes need to come out and the administration needs to go.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

If I understand the law correctly, any citizen can make an arrest if they view a crime in progress so just hang around DC until you spot Harriet Miers and then place her under citizen's arrest for obstruction.

OK, it probably wouldn't do any good but it makes a powerful point and any number of public-spirited bodies would pick up your legal fees.

I would love to do something like that if I lived near Washington. That would be an amazing message, wouldn't it?

What felony would you be arresting Ms Meirs for?

Meiers had been subpoenaed to appear before congress and answer questions. She refused to show up for that subpoena. That is called contempt of court. If you see her and she has not shown up for the subpoena, that would be a 'crime in progress'.

for misdemeanors in the District of Columbia.

Maybe it seemed negative, but a little tough love was in order to make you and others think (and research) a bit about what you're suggesting before latching onto it as a good idea.

Also, you are mistaken about several other elements of the law of citizens arrest.
First, unless and until the House votes that Meirs is in contempt and orders her arrest, she hasn't done anything that she can be arrested for. You can't take the place of the House of Representatives. Secondly, she didn't commit the crime in your presence. Her action (or inaction) occurred more than a week ago at a location in a hearing room on Capitol Hill. Your theory that somehow she is engaged in a continuing offense and thus is committing it in your presence deprives the concept of limiting citizens arrests to actions taken in the persons presence of any meaning.

Finally, when I suggested anyone attempting such an act (and I don't really think anyone here is that foolish) would be a laughingstock what I had in mind is what I believe would happen: your face up on every television screen in America juxtaposed with Gomer Pyle sceaming "Citizen's ah-rest, Citizen's ah-rest". People would be wetting their pants.

I do appreciate your point of view and I understand it, too.

And even if they pay your legal fees, are they going to pay the damages you get hit with in a civil suit or serve the time for you if you are charged and convicted of false arrest?

The ACLU, Mike Moore and so on might pick up your legal fees, dunno about damages and probably not do time for you (is jail time customary for a false arrest?).

OK, maybe it's a bad idea, I'm spitballing out of frutstration here.

maybe something along the lines of a mock arrest and trial of Bushco in front of the White House? Of course, our forefathers thought that would not be enough and they would recommend we storm the White House and take the whole gang out. I would never endorse such a thing, of course, just thinking back to what they gave us as a remedy....if not impeachment......overthrow the government. AGAIN, I am not saying we should or that I should. I would never say anything that could get me sent to Gitmo. If I meant it I would not say it out loud.

I only have the constitution which states that in such cases as these the only remedy is impeachment. The constitution does not say you must guarantee a full follow through in order to start proceedings. I do know we are in a somewhat constitutional crisis since the 'law of the land' is now to ignore what the constitution states should be done.

I also know we are doomed if we do not at least try to impeach them. These new found powers will be passed down to each new president and now the new folks will be able to point to this point in time as precedent for any evil they may have in their hearts.

When a mob boss kills someone who can testify against them they do not hem and haw about whether they can convict. They go forward with all the facts and try the bastard. The idea of impeachment was partially introduced because of pardons and commutations. If a president were EVER to pardon or commute someone and it even appeared that they were doing this to protect themselves, our forefathers wanted us to know we could still get the bastards. You could say they looked into their magic ball and saw this exact incident. They gifted us impeachment to take care of King George.

This is not a case where we think we have grounds for impeachment. This is a case where James Madison said they were putting it in the constitution for this very specific situation.

I have faith in our country and as crimes come out I believe more and more people will holler for impeachment. If we do not at least try then we will put the old Soviet Union and their secret police to shame with the new laws we have condoned and let go. If you do not want to live in the old Soviet Union then you should rethink your position.

And it was (impeachably) negated by "Rule By Signing Statement."

It is the impeachophobes who must list the 24 GOP Senators who will reverse themselves -- and publicly, and for history, declare the US a War Criminal Nation (and confirm their own status as war criminals).

And even if that's the reality. We damn well need to know it.

But more importantly, The American People's objection to it needs to be formally registered.

Only Impeachment ... can accomplish that.

It is our ONLY moral, patriotic, (and legal, electoral, diplomatic...) option.

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:hi: Hope you are enjoying Atlantic Beach.

The Bush administration is an atrocity. However, I'm irked at what you said about people putting party before country.

Back in 2000 people who were frustrated with the Democratic Party urged everyone they could to withhold their votes for Democrats. The result was the Bush administration and all the things you are angry about.

To change anything in America, you must have power. If the side you are on cannot unite, you won't have power. Without Democrats in the way, the next Republican is very likely to be far worse than Bush. I support my party because I do care about what happens to America more than anything.

Wanting the Democrats to win in 2008 is an essential part of trying to get rid of Bush criminals. Remember, impeachment only gets rid of one guy. I want to get rid of the entire rat infestation in DC.

I hope Harriet Meirs is charged with contempt of Congress. I'll be upset if she isn't. I wish all the people who were working toward impeachment would dedicate an effort to getting the House to find Meirs in contempt. I think if Democrats keep pushing contempt, it will start a war with Bush over separation of powers. Sooner or later Bush will overplay his hand. Bush will prove to the public that he holds himself above the law. At that time, the public will understand that there is no alternative but to impeach.

I think you have really thought this out and I applaud you for that. I do think I am always walking a tight line in regards to party before country. When I have heard people say we will be hurt by this in the next election that is thinking about party before country. Although I can also see how the implications you state (about getting rid of the infestation) come into play and it is not as cut and dry as it may seem. For me those actions are party before country and that is what I hate about the Republicans. They do not seem to care about the good of the country and always walk the party line. I do not want to be hypocritical and for me it would be a rationalization when I state it is for the good of getting rid of the scum. I believe this way because all of the reasons for impeachment include the fact that even if we get rid of the rats, the new presidents will have all this power and it will be hard, if not impossible, to take it from them. In my opinion this is the biggest threat to our country in the last five years. (these are all how I feel about my own actions and should not be taken as me speaking for, or about, you)

Even if we do get a Democratic President in 2008, they will not relinquish their power. This means that we are at the mercy of all future Presidents. Even getting a Democratic President does not guarantee we will get rid of the infestation or that we will not have a Republican majority house next time.

If we get a Republican and he is worse then * then he will be able to wield these powers in ways * never imagined and we are at his mercy because we did not do anything to stop it at the time and those powers are the new precedent because we did not impeach.

It it makes you feel any better, I have voiced my opinion, to my reps, about Meirs and how they need to act on this. I am doing my best to fight on all fronts.

Thank you for taking so much time to think out a very articulate answer and doing it in a respectful way. I hope I have come across the same way.

We've seen several of their ofishyl statements, weaseling about their dereliction of duty. And they all fall back on some sort of euphemized version of the False Memes of rationalizing inaction that is characteristic of the same "groupthink" that got us into this nightmare.

What they also all include is some patronizing "sympathy" for our "anger and frustration." Because, you see, we're just the screeching rabble who couldn't possibly understand all the big important strategerizing they and their highly-paid consultants do.

It's flat out insulting. And flat out stupid.

It's this aristocratic dismissal from above that has led us from one lost election, to the next stolen election, to the next war crime culpability, to the next lost war, and on and on...

And while we sympathize with their child-like need to suck of the pacifier of "business as usual" and "all will be well someday soon"...

...it still is just more sucking.

Only Impeachment ... doesn't suck.

It IS our positive agenda.

It is our ONLY moral, patriotic, (and legal, legislative, electoral, diplomatic...) option.

Get on with it.

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"We're a protected class of politicians and lawyers, and we just don't eat our own! Sorry! If you want to see laws being enforced, rat out one of your fellow private citizens. We're here for each other before we're here for you."