Sex sting arrests in Murphy, TX headlines on To Catch a Predator but the arrest may be unlawful

and many may never go to court. Byron Harris reports from WFAA Dallas.

Watch the News segment here:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?s=y&vidId=153845&catId=104

OOPS, looks like the entrapment cases may never see their day in court. D'oh...

I originally saw this on TX Cable News, and since there was a discussion on some other threads I thought I should post this as well.

When I went to WFAA website and watched the video (provided in link above) I noticed that there was quite a bit of editing between the two. On the TX Cable News segment they had the owner of Perverted Justice who was a total dick (well there is no other way to describe him except to say he was a dick).
However, he is not featured in the segment in the link above. I went to TX Cable News site and didn't find the whole video.:shrug:

Perverted Justice apparently sets up people and is paid by NBC. They have NO formal training and therefore they may have hindered the cases in Murphy and maybe other places as well....

on MSNBC after Keith and they had clips of the men talking with the girl and saying what they wanted to do to her. It was pretty creepy.

The segment I saw didn't have anything to do with the interactions of the stalkers. This was only about the group setting up the online predators. Perverted Justice was featured as the culprits in this news story, because they aren't trained in law enforcement and they are inexperienced.

The guy interviewed was very rude to Mr. Harris.

I don't agree with the methods of these programs. And of course I don't condone predators lurking about for young children. However, I think it should be left to law enforcement. But even then I have reservations about law enforcers entrapping people. I think PARENTS should be aware of what their children are doing. After all that is a parents job.

They said that they never bring up any sexual content first on line. They had a girl on the beach and the men would come and sit in a beach chair beside her and describe what they wanted to do to her.
They asked Chris Hanson what his top three most disturbing busts were and two were men who had histories of abusing children and one was the man who brought his five year old boy with him.

If they are doing this on the up and up and not trapping these men into conversation, ie if the men bring this up when they think they are talking to underage children, then actually set up dates with them, then they do need to be thrown in the slammer.

being a victim myself.

If I could face the man who raped me as a child, well let's just say I'd have my JUSTICE.

And he would be minus an appendage only so he could never do that to anyone else.

http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?profile=PJ_Staff

Director of Operations Xavier Von Erck is the person I mentioned in my OP. He is the one I referred to as a dick.

Google von erck and see for yourself how this creep is harming real investigations......

How can you be 23 and know enough about this issue to make sure these convictions stick?

I thought, "hey, these are pervs, right?
They're hitting on CHILDREN online, right?"

WRONG.

One of the show's producers came clean a few weeks ago and
admitted that they are setting up some of these men in an
incredibly slimey fashion.

The "children" are, of course, not kids; they're fake online personas.
But the producer admitted that they had been altering the online profiles
AFTER conversations began.

Get it? They post a generic profile, start a SEXUAL conversation with some
lonely loser, and AFTER the conversation is well underway they ALTER the profile
to say that his new "friend" is underage. And he never notices, because
why would he check the profile AFTER he thinks he's made a new friend?

So some of these so-called "pedophiles" NEVER had any hint
that they were making dates with fake CHILDREN. It was all
just a frameup, in some cases.

And if that's what a producer ADMITS to, then what other slimy
bullshit might be going on that we still don't know about?

I need to APOLOGIZE to everyone I ever defended this show to.
I was wrong, and this show is not doing good things. The people
who make the show have clearly committed horrible crimes, and
therefore cannot be trusted.

I hereby APOLOGIZE for formerly defending these soulless monsters
who have knowingly and willfully destroyed innocent lives in return
for nothing more than TV RATINGS.

I was WRONG- they are evil. I know that now.

I have staunchly defended these guys, as my family has been affected by a child molestation a few years ago.

If they are actually framing people, I have to walk away in disgust, and I'm sorry I ever defended them too..

I'd love a link to that info on the framing ... if these men had no idea they were talking to "minors" that is just hideously wrong.

I guess I don't like the idea of people being harassed by law enforcement on TV. It just reeks of injustice in my eyes. Nothing like having your face plastered all over the country by shows like this and the lives they ruin in the process.

And if I'm not mistaken the segment I caught on TX Cable News mentioned that one of the so called predators committed suicide because of his national unwanted "stardom."

I wish WFAA had the whole segment on this, instead of the version on their website. It really was an eyeopener.

I'm so glad you have been able to come to a better understanding about what is at stake when a group of people can pretend to be above the law, only to break the law in the process, while destroying lives.

And when NBC pays your salary you better have a show worthy of airing. After all it's ALL about ratings more than it is about justice.

If this can substantiated it would pretty much end the argument being made here that these stings are legitimate.

All these stings culminate in the perpetrator arriving at the person's home* with the intention of having sex and there is little doubt the perpetrator doesn't think that person he is going to have sex with is a minor...

Hate the show...Hate the perp...

* sometimes it's a park or beach...

oops....

but check out http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0529071nbc1.html

We can't have unaccountable, non-transparent private entities running around doing "law enforcement."

The show is a degradation of the principle of transparent policing. Needless to say, most people cheer it on because they hate the crime. That's fine, I guess, though the viewers of the show seem every bit as creepy as the perps. That said, it is of course much easier to chip away at established principles of law by attacking the very class of criminals that even the criminals despise.

And out here in the west, we could have a return to mob rule and lynchings. Sooo much better than waiting on the legal system ;)

Seriously, as DoJ gets shown to be less about the J and more about CYA, people will be looking elsewhere for dishing out come-uppance to local evil-doers. That make this sort of real life entrapment show the new circus for the masses.

Can't wait until we start throwing non-Christians and non-heteros to lions here in the Theocratic States of America. The whole place is turning into a Robert Heinlein book setting. x(

....the very class of criminals that even the criminals despise."

Well said (as usual).


Funny how that works, even on DU. You are either with Perverted Justice or with the pedophiles. Where have I heard that rationale before?

I thought the sign of a great intellect was to be able to hold two seemingly contradictory positions in your mind and believe both to be true...

For instance I think some of the folks at Perverted Justice might "like" their job a little too much and that every one of the perps they ensnared would have had sex with a minor if the opportunity presented itself...

I don't know how it would be measured but I'd be really curious to know the "hit rate" outside these for-profit stings......and not-for-profit stings done by regular law enforcement.

In other words, how many of these fat, gross, lecherous old men would actually hook up with 'hot' 13 year old girls home all alone. It's a serious question. Aren't 99.999% of these girls saying "Uh, no, gross."? Are they creating crimes where no crime would exist if not for their sting operation? Maybe not entrapment by the letter of the law, but entrapment none the less.

It's clearly understood by then....

A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm

If you are an adult and you knowingly go to a destination to have sex with with a minor you may be "loser" but you are also a predator and a criminal...

I have some reservations about the show because some of the perps are indeed losers but adults having sex with kids is wrong...

Most people caught in stings use the entrapment defense... It is up to the courts to sort it out...

To close, if you don't want to be humilated on tv and end up in the hooskow don't have sexual conversations with anybody under the age of consent anywhere and certainly don't meet them to engage in sexual acts...

That's just wrong...

apparently the so called predators are being set up. They think they are engaging people who are adults by checking out the users profile, only to find out the profiles of these people are changed AFTER they engage in sex talk...
That is just WRONG. Especially since the people ARE of age, but there are several levels of deception going on here.


What if it was YOU who were mislead. And of course I'm not implying that you would engage in that kind of behavior. I'm just saying that anyone can be fooled and mislead into believing you are conversing with an adult.

And yes it is wrong to take advantage of a minor. I should know as I was a victim of rape at the age of thirteen.

From the transcripts I have seen on television these men thought they were "talking to minors" on the net and during their conversations would intimate what they were doing could get them in trouble if they were caught and therefore would have to act secretly....

If the men thought they were talking to other adults they can talk about any sex act they want and set up dates to whatever they want and it should be of no consequence to law enforcement but that is not the case...

They did shows in Flagler Beach, FL, Oceanside, NJ, and Long Beach, CA and most of the stings resulted in convictions or pleas...

If you engage in sexual banter with a person you believe to be a minor whether that person is a minor or not you have probably broken the law and if you show up at that person's home with condoms and flowers, ipods, and other blandishments you have broken the law...

directly if he knew the girl was underage. They all seemed to know that, up front.

If the profile was changed and they had no idea the supposed victim was underage, then why aren't the perps saying that when asked?

Seems to me "I didn't know" would be their first response.

and not one of the perpetrators has successfully raised an "entrapment defense"


Infernal arguments like these remind me of my favorite quote:


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."


-John Adams

Everyone of those men on that show would have had sex with a minor if they could find one that was ready, willing, and able... Every damn one....

At first, I thought this program was a good idea...being the father of a then teen-age daughter and knowing some wild things that have gone online. I wasn't surprised with the cattle-call of men showing up, but I never quite trusted how the sting was set. This was especially the case as this "series" went from a special into "regular production". As a regularly scheduled bit, and a format set, now it was up to Hansen and his people to deliver bigger and better...meaning more shocking...every time out...or people would start losing interest. It seems, once again, my suspicions proved true.

It's a shame since there is a serious problem with child predetation on the internet and having a scandal involving this show will create a sideshow about the show rather than the problem it attempted to focus on. Again, the push for ratings and "sizzle" means cutting corners or bending rules.

When we mix "Justice" and a Profit Motive (Ratings) I think we come away with a Very Dangerous Concoction just ripe for abuse. No one likes the idea of a predator, online or otherwise, but I really don't like our justice system being converted into entertainment.

That's my two cents.

The show is voyeuristic and appeals to our darker angels...

But I see sympathy for the perpetrators; that they didn't know what they were doing...

When I was the age of the decoys I was propositioned for sex by adults and it was not a pleasant experience...

I've been online for way, way too many years. I've seen those dark angels you refer to. Mine have been tempted as others have, but there's a line one crosses, willingly, to go from the fantasyworld of online to the real world of some teen-agers kitchen. This involves several stages that the perpetrator crosses along the way willingly. Many of these perps are married or have jobs where a sex rap not only destroys their careers but that of their families. Thus, the original message of the serious of "think before you do" is still a very strong one worth delivering.

That said, this show is predicated on trapping people in a crime. Imagine they set up a sting and no one shows? That's lots of money wasted and delays on getting the next show on the air. I'll be curious to see if the "success" of this show will be its ultiamte downfall.

For a while I've had a problem with "legal shows"...like People's Court...that turn the judicial system into a sideshow. The image of the wise judge was replaced with Mills Lane and Judge Judy. People run to court for any and all reasons and don't we all love it when some asshat gets the book thrown at him (usually him). Isn't vengence grand? We'll be right back after we sell you some insurance.

I believe we've created a culture that views our legal system as some game show that deals more with show-biz than with true justice. These shows turn into morality plays and need to fuel into an audience that plays judge themselves...and hence we get the Nancy Graces and other "experts" who feel they can play judge and jury on the screen...and the ratinsg are always good.

What's worse is the use of the justice system for entertainment value cheapens what people think of that system. It doesn't help when a president pardons a convicted felon.

Plus, there's no room for redemption or rehabiliton on these shows...rarely do you see follow-ups on what's happened to the people involved in these circuses...it's move on to bigger and more titilating.

Cheers...

be as an officer of the court but he never claims the perpetrators are factually innocent...


In the end the only question remains is how many of those men went to an agreed upon venue to have sex with a minor and how many of them would would have had sex with a minor if the opportunity presented itself....

I submit all of them...

That's bullshit.

It's not a crime for adults to solicit sex from other adults online, is it?

And when they arrive there is no mistaking the person they are visting is a minor...

There have been hundreds of arrests and not one of the perpetrators has successfully raised an entrapment defense...

Also, almost to a one, all the men admit to Chris Hansen that they thought the person they were talking to was a child...

They can make it look like anything they want.

Over one hundred and thirty of the perps have plead or been convicted... The other cases are pending... The perps are rabbis, mortgage bankers, cops, software engineers, and physicians... I am sure some of them have raised vigorous defenses...

Everyone of those guys ensnared on the show would have had sex with a minor if they could have found one that was ready , willing, and able...

I was propositioned three times as a young teenager by much older men... I have no doubt of what I see occurring is mostly true...

This is not something that needs to be on TV. It is more about ratings than curbing criminal behavior.

It's not entertainment... It's voyeurism...

The point I am trying to make is that just about every man that caught up on that show would have had sex with a child if he could have found one that was ready, willing, and able...

The claim that the men were roleplaying or that they didn't think they were talking to a minor is disingenuous... It's akin to a man who gets arrested in a garden variety prostitution sting claiming he's innocent because he though the decoy was really a hooker...

And why would they show those guys on TV?

I will re-read it... I didn't see where she suggested the men were entrapped, and as I stated in over three hundred arrests, not one of the defendants has successfully raised an entrapment defense...

They show those guys on tv so people will watch them but all of em would have had sex with a minor if they had the opportunity... Ick....

Thanks so much for these links. Looks like these perverted justice kids are just kids and they have more control over the show than I realized. Plus they aren't trained law enforcement. I had thought the people chatting online with these perverts were cops!

maybe a few were framed, but i still think the majority were seeking children. when you see most of their responses they automatically have that guilty look, and come up with things like, yea i know i was stupid, but i don't know why i did it. Some even say they need help and so on.Some have also had prior pedophile related charges. I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

Guilt by association. You can read some of it here:

http://www.corrupted-justice.com/article21.html

Here is a website opposed to the Perverted Justice folks:

www.corrupted-justice.com


I think it's important to look at both sides in an issue as serious as this.

I don't think vigilantism is effective, and it might lead some with good intentions into unethical and criminal acts for their cause. I think they become too close to it and don't take care that things are done according to lawful procedures. It may lead to a lot of those who ARE guilty getting away with it eventually.