So the steam pipe that burst was 83 years old

Looks like the private sector does not update infrastructure. So what infrastructure have all these New York mayors modernized in the past two decades?

becaues of antiquated infrastructure?

The guy who came out here to our place on eastern LI to update our generator worked in Queens during that fiasco. He confirmed how out of date things were.

And nobody did shit for those people. We went out there to take a look around and it was very grueling for them, especially the old folks. It really did go on for weeks and it was extremely HOT in NY then.

Privatizing so-called public assets is best thing for them - we should sell off bridges, tunnels & highways too. The market will determine which ones will be maintained and which won't. Things that fall apart will do so because they aren't used.

(do I *really* need a :sarcasm: tag here?)

:sarcasm: thingy. Guess the market will decide who lives and dies as well or is that Sicko! :D

was on its last legs, but it would add sixteen dollars to my bill to replace it. I thought that authorizing the replacement was the right thing to do, but now I realize that I damaged my profit margin by wasting capital on fixing something that wasn't broken. If I had stockholders, they would rightfully be angry with me. Now I see the error of my ways--the next time something on my car wears out, I'll just let it break, and I'll worry about paying the bill then. Thank you, privatized infrastructure, for teaching me such a valuable lesson!

:eyes:
rocknation

my car's service appointment next week and not change those two tyres. Afterall that money will deplete the family savings.

I mean this in all seriousness:

If it was working, why replace it?

This is basic engineering stuff: right now, we don't know
the ultimate service life of a lot of the infrastructure
elements that hold our cities (and our civilization)
together. How long will a steam pipe last? We don't
know. And we won't really know until a few of them
have failed.

Replacing them too late is obviously a problem. But
so is replacing them too early. It's obviously un-
economic for the owning utility, but it's also a
royal pain in the butt to everyone that has to put
up with torn-up streets, no steam, or what-have-you
as pipes are replaced "too soon" and "too often".

Eventually, we'll start to have good guidelines on
how long steam pipes last, how to inspect them, and
when to replace them.

Engineering evolves as a discipline through incidents
like these (that is, failures, some more and some less
catastrophic). You can see the exact same thing with
the engineering discipline of bridge design: A new
method comes along, say, the Suspension Bridge. At
first, the bridges are way over-built, but they
evolve into more and more graceful forms. Eventually,
though, a "Galloping Gertie" comes along and falls
into the Tacoma Narrows when a strong wind blows.



At that point, the engineers finally start to
really *KNOW* the limits of that particular design
and they (usually) don't make the same mistake a
second time.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge)

The steam pipes in New York are the same situation.

Nowadays, with modern computer simulations, things
are changing: you often don't need to experience a
failure in the real world to know the ultimate limits
of any given design. But factors still come into
play that are surprising. One need only look at
the history of the Space Shuttle to know that this
happens ("Foam? Plastc foam killed the Shuttle?").
Closer to the question of our steam pipe, look at
the experience with that stub of the Alaskan oil
pipeline last year. The engineers all thought
they were getting away with their program of
reduced maintenance until it turned out that
they weren't ;).

Tesha

if the pipes were routinely checked and maintained. But I doubt it. And I have no problem with replacing something that old just on general principle.

:headbang:
rocknation

> And I have no problem with replacing something that old just on general principle.

Your not a Con-Ed stockholder, so of course you
have no problem with them spending capital.

And, BTW, how old is the roof on your house?

How old are the pipes in your house?

How old is your wiring? Shouldn't you replace it
all now before corrosion or the stress of all
those minor overloads across the years causes
your house to burn down?

Tesha

...You're not a Con-Ed stockholder, so of course you have no problem with them spending capital...
But look at all the ADDITIONAL capital they're going to have to spend because the pipe DID wear out! A little preventative maintenance might have--well, prevented the explosion.

How old is your wiring? Shouldn't you replace it all now before corrosion or the stress of all those minor overloads across the years causes your house to burn down?
If my wiring or roof were that old, I WOULD check them regularly. And if they were showing signs of wear, yes, I WOULD go about replacing them before them before they became a major problem/expense.

:headbang:
rocknation

:D

1. This one incident is likely to be *FAR LESS EXPENSIVE*
for Con-Ed than ripping up and replacing all of the
existing steam lines that they own.

2. You obviously didn't take my (slighgtly oblique) point
so let me make it more blunt: You're calling on Con-Ed to
replace miles of piping based on damned little evidence,
so I wondered if you've replaced all the wiring in your
house based on the same scant evidence (perhaps a switch
or two has failed or an outlet no longer holds plugs as
tightly as it once did?).

Tesha

When discussing for-profit enterprises, and their attendant need to show growing profits to benefit those shareholders you spoke of, you cannot dismiss the possibility (some would say probability) that nafarious means may be used to achieve those ends.

A classic example is Ohio's Davis-Besse nuclear plant. For 6 years First Energy systematically ignored a gaping hole in the reactor head. The man in charge of the maintenance crew (read middle manager, aka grunt) had warned upper management of its existence repeatedly. When he attempted to thoroughly inspect it during a routine shutdown, they ordered him removed and 86'd his career.

The fact that a catastrophic meltdown would have decimated all of northern Ohio and its inhabitants didn't deter corporate suits from their profit mission.

Sorry, while your argument would be valid in a perfect world, this world is anything but. And it is filled with people who would sell us out for an attaboy.



Further reading:
Free Press: Davis-Besse background and efforts to reopen without full repairs
http://freepress.org/columns/display/7/2003/707

NIRS: News release about First Energy's secret "public" meeting:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:s73AMacP1tUJ:www.nirs.org/press/08-17-2004/1+davis-besse+hole&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

That's one thing you can count on when dealing
with corporations.

I'm not suggesting that they will *EVER* replace
the steam pipes, I'm only stating the obvious:
they won't replace the steam pipes before the
need becomes apparent via their bottom line.

Tesha

equipment. Why? They are prone to periodic "water hammer" explosions that tend to kill people and spew hundreds of pounds of asbestos into the air. Many buildings do not have boilers of their own and rely on ConEd's live steam sales for heating and cooling. For many of those buildings, the solution may be simple: upgrade building-level HVAC equipment, and let ConEd just stop sending steam through segments of an obsolete system. Also, let ConEd stop covering up asbestos hazards during the crucial first hours after every explosion, when asbestos particles fill the air. So far, I haven't seen a picture of an emergency worker wearing a respirator.

See the slideshow at http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/topstories_story_200060732.html :

"Millions of pounds of steam are pumped beneath New York City streets every hour, heating and cooling thousands of buildings, including the Empire State Building.

The steam pipes have proven prone to rupture before. A steam pipe explosion near Gramercy Park in 1989 killed three people and spewed loads of asbestos into the air - a fact that Con Ed later admitted it concealed for days while residents were exposed.

That explosion was caused by a condition known as "water hammer," in which water condenses in a closed section of pipe. The sudden mix of hot steam and cool water can cause pressure to skyrocket, bursting the pipe."

Having Con Ed do the supplying saves us a lot of energy use and pollution from individual buildings.
Yes, the Gramercy Park explosion was unbelievably bad; much worse than this one, I think.

be more efficient and less polluting?

Does most Manhattan steam come from the big Con Ed plant on First Avenue, constantly swathed in huge clouds of smoke? How old is that plant?

I'm no expert, but I should think modern boilers in basements would conserve energy and reduce pollution compared to ancient smokestacks a mile away from many of ConEd's steam customers.

tradeoffs (such as expected fatalities and asbestos exposure from explosions) and do some analysis. For one thing, there appear to be only 1800 steam customers, with very few new customers. There's a link to a comprehensive examination of Con Ed's steam business halfway through http://www.nycedc.com/NR/rdonlyres/19E4FEDD-7050-42E3-8D50-74F262BFEE12/0/EnergyNewsWinter06.htm :

"Con Edison Steam Business Development Plan Approved

The New York Public Service Commission approved the Con Edison Steam Business Development Plan at its December session. The Plan was submitted to the Commission by the Steam Business Development Task Force.... The Task Force includes 15 individuals from local and state government, public interest, business, and consumer and supplier groups, and is chaired by NYCEDC.

As noted in the Mayor's Energy Policy Task Force report, the steam system ... serves approximately 1,800 customers with steam for space heating and hot water and provides about 363 of those customers with steam for cooling, which reduces the need for summer electricity capacity by about 375 MW. ...The Plan contains a comprehensive examination of the status of Con Edison's steam business development activities, market conditions, and the needs of current and potential steam customers. The Plan also contains 19 recommendations for Con Edison."

Link to report: http://www.nycedc.com/Web/Marketing/Newsletters/Documents/SteamBusinessPlanFinal082605.pdf

> You may be right. But before being so certain, seems to me
> you'd need to identify tradeoffs (such as expected fatalities
> and asbestos exposure from explosions) and do some analysis.

It'd probably be easier for you to identify any single
scenario where those 1800 major customers (375MW-equivalent
just for cooling!) could mitigate their point-pollution
sources better than could the one steam plant.

Tesha

I'm not sure which Con Ed plant produces the steam but I don't think the distance matters that much. It gives us one polluting source to worry about instead of thousands. BTW, my little building has a gas water boiler and gas heat; the steam is for larger buildings.

old metal pipes in our house with PVC.

Metal corrodes.

For instance.

At least the city does keep track of everything under the streets. They know the age of pipes and wiring, they just don't know what will fail and when.

> Some PVC piping has been known to fail, too.

The Tesha family has gotton some interesting lessons
in this over the years.

Back in our previous house, we had a super-efficient
condensing gas boiler installed in place of the old
oil-fired boiler. Because of the nasty (wet and acidic)
nature of the exhaust from this new boiler, its venting
system had to be made out of a special Plexiglass material
specified by the boiler vendor.

Only that didn't work. Over time, the heat and acid caused
the Plexiglass to become brittle and crack wide open. A few
years after our system was installed, there was a nationwide
product recall and all of the Plexiglass venting in the
U.S. was swapped-out in favor of stainless steel.

This summer, we got another lesson. The previous owners of
our current house had an underground sprinkler system put
in; major portions of this were installed with Schedule 40
PVC pipe. This included some above-ground sections of 1"
piping. This spring, Mr. Tesha bumped some of this piping
and it shattered into shards. Apparently, sunlight over
the years caused this pipe to become embrittled and all
it took was a minor physical shock to cause it to fail
catastrophically. Above ground, it's now been (mostly)
replaced with black polyethylene tubing.

How fast do materials fail?

It obviously depends on a lot of factors, not all of
which *ARE* obvious.

Tesha

> Metal corrodes.

How fast?

(Think carefully before you answer...)

Tesha

Would any infrastructure built by modern hands last as long?

the real problem is the long, aged, thin thread that provides all the water to NYC.

Only one line of three has been modernized, the other two are in deep shit. While reviewing their own system, Chicago water engineers looked at how NYC plans to deal with a potential massive water loss by shaking their collective heads. Even with a lake next door, we worry about the age and condition of piping and water purification. Our folks studied the entire world to make sure our water supply system was robust and effective enough.

The worst on our list? NYC, with a good likelihood that a catastrohpic loss could occur within 10 years of that study. (which began to be released in dribs and drabs about 8 yrs ago)

when you try to imagine 11,000,000 without flushing, drinking or showering water, yikes. A mere steam pipe is nothing.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Sudden cooling of a pipe full of steam causes it to go BOOM!. This is how a steam engine (with a pressure valve) is able to work. The infrastructure that was the problem wasn't the pipe but the insulation around it.
We really don't want any mayor digging up every street replacing pipes with new ones which may or may not be better than what we have now. A few years ago they dug up my street and replaced the water pipe, which had been installed around 1900 (my building was built around 1927). So far, so good. It's a big city, the public sector inspectors do their jobs, and stuff happens.

Last year we hiked back from Times Square to 49th & Lexington (quite a stroll)...and I kept noticing the lights and activity coming up from the grates on the streets. Recently, the History Channel did a program on Underground New York. There's a subterranean city underneath...much of it built 100 years ago. It's train tunnels, water pipes, sewage systems, telephone, electrical and cable, subways and more. Over the years you're talking about thousands of miles of tunnels, millions of miles of pipes and cables.

We've had similar problems here in Chicago...a century-old tunnel system flooded in the 90s and gas main explosions and electrical failures are common in warm weather...especially in areas where the infrastructure was "layered" on over the decades. The local power utility corporation...Excellon...got caught with its pants down several years ago by allowing older areas to crumble as they had no history as to the infrastructure conditions.

I'll be following this story closely cause I have another NYC trip...right in that area coming up soon.

on Iraq on our own antiquated infrastructure. After all, if we are really "the world's only remaining superpower" (stand and cheer!), we should have pipes that don't explode.

but harder for the cronies to steal billions if the work is done where auditors could actually AUDIT.;)

Al Sharpton talked about this idea a lot when he was running for Prez. I haven't heard too much from any of the other candidates along these lines, but we're all focused on IRAQ right now.

This like this happen in Atlanta a lot, and this city is not NEARLY as old as NYC! Mayor Franklin of Atlanta talks about systematically replacing these ancient pipes all the time, but there's NEVER enough money...UNTIL another pipe collapses and they have to find the money to not only replace the pipe but repair the damn hole in the street!

nobody pays much attention to it anymore, you just have to hope you're not in the general vicinity when it happens.

The story is that the house that contained all the water works blueprints for the city burned down a long time ago in the 1800's, so as a result every so often in the old neighborhoods they will dig up a leak and find that the piping there is done through old hollowed out logs.

Same applies to the power grid.

They've had similar incidents.
I remember shaking my head in disbelief, wondering how on earth their infrastructure had deteriorated so much.

we're so screwn!11!!

:rofl:
rocknation

right into a crater.

There's some other fairly recent event that had something to do with releases of massive amounts of asbestos in New York where they didn't seem to move with nearly the same speed . . .

I can't quite bring that other incident to mind, though - could somebody help me out?

:eyes:

for a year of asbestos cleanup in Gramercy Park after a 1989 "water hammer" explosion.