Police: Christian Boot camp girl dragged behind a van after she fell behind morning run

BANQUETE, Texas - Authorities charged the director of a Christian boot camp and an employee with dragging a 15-year-old girl behind a van after she fell behind the group during a morning run.

Charles Eugene Flowers and Stephanie Bassitt of San Antonio-based Love Demonstrated Ministries, a 32-day boot camp for at-risk teens, are accused of tying the girl to the van with a rope June 12 and dragging her, according to an arrest affidavit filed Wednesday.

Flowers, the camp's director, ordered Bassitt to run alongside the girl after she fell behind, according to the affidavit. When the girl stopped running, Bassitt yelled at her and pinned her to the ground while Flowers tied the rope to her, according to the affidavit.

The girl was treated for scrapes and bruises on her stomach, legs and arms. The girl's mother gave investigators photos of her daughter's injuries and a sworn statement from a witness who claimed to have seen the girl dragged on her stomach at least three times. Flowers and Bassitt remained jailed Saturday on $100,000 bond each on aggravated assault charges.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070812/ap_on_re_us/girl_dragged

:sarcasm:

Sid

Assuming you mean George and not Kate, at any rate.

on, umm, let's just call it a cross of love.

And you know what else they do?

Then can turn people from GAY to straight!
How about that!
Just like freaking magic!
All you got to do is go on a couple of THIRTY MILE FREAKING RUNS, with some fundy asshole telling you how worthless you are just because your attracted to people of the same sex.

LOVE DEMONSTRATED MINISTRIES, is also a "Faith Based" funds recipient.
You know, one of those "churchy" organizations that gets millions and millions of our tax dollars from Dear Leader, and all around great Christian guy, George W. Bush.

Go to americablog.com today.
John has a write up of this and other "Christian" boot camps, some that operate outside of the US that is just sickening.

I hate these fucking people, I really, really, do.

That would be fucked up if they did.

Sid

who he says he is, not quite convinced, not quite with the program, and Jesus blowing his stack, tying Thomas up with rope as the other disciples hold him down, then dragging him behind a camel going full-tilt across the desert.

I note that this is a "Christian" boot camp.

I'm counting 1 oxymoron and several plain morons.

Also one defense lawyer.

Saith Old Crusoe:



:rofl:

This is the greatest comment there has ever been.

We can close up civilization now.

Jesus would be spinning in his grave...that is, if he were there.

where I first heard it many years ago.

I'm still struggling with the idea that a "Christian" boot camp exists at all. They should just change it to "Satanic Boot Camp" and get it over with. Let he who is without sin among you drive the next truck, etc.

It's funny how the high-profile fundies rail and how against sinful films and tv programs but are staggeringly silent when a "Christian" boot camp is violent and stupid in its conduct.

...and now I can steal it without guilt :D

The sheer existential tension existing between words like "Christian" and "Boot Camp" is near enough to tearing the fabric of space an time, besides.

to play together at all.

Bill Moyers, as liberal a soul as there is, is a Baptist minister.

I bet he's with us on this one.

:applause:

I don't know what these people pray to, but it's not the Christian god I was told about.

assault.

I would suggest that putting your kid in a "Christian Boot Camp" is in and of itself child abuse.

It's like parents who thought their son was safe with the parish priest. Parents (and others) forget that people who hold themselves up as Christian examples are only human and that the same skepticism should apply to those people as to everyone else.

What kind of a sad excuse for a human being would send his or her child to one of these torture chambers?

Vile.

:thumbsup:

I've seen them work. I was a foster parent for many years and saw several boot camps save a kid from ending up in and out of jail. These things have to be approached VERY delicately and it's prone to failure because VERY FEW people have the right temperment to deal with troubled teenagers especially in that kind of setting.

I also don't fault the parents. The parent is rare who is genuinely qualified to know how to handle the most troubled kids. They most often follow the advice of state social workers, school administrators or psychiatric professionals.

because they end up reinforcing the very behavior that got the kids there in the first place: Might makes right, respect is meant to be demanded, and being feared is better than being liked.

:headbang:
rocknation

..... it's because they're freakin' NUTS. All of them... fairytale believing nutbags...

Your prejudiced comment is on thin ground

And if your religion-of-choice is some belief that revolves around veneration of a torture device used to execute a Jewish rabbi who, you believe, later rose from his grave like any one of George Romero's excellently schlocky creations, and will later return from on high to cast infinite judgment for finite sin, resulting in the execution and eternal torture of all but a special handful of "chosen," and in the meantime you and others like you whine to the heavens of how greatly oppressed you are despite practically ruling the world due to genocidal purges of other cultures in the name of this Apocalypse Zombie... Well, then, I just have to figure that this god made you out of meat, and made lions meat-eaters, as part of his grand cosmic plan that, you have to admit, so often plays out as an ironic practical joke.

If however you're just a quiet closet-prayer who strives to follow the example of said rabbi and isn't dedicating their souls to the concept of a manmade eschaton in the hopes of maybe bringing back God Zombie so he can purge the world of Jews... Well then you're alright in my book, carry on.

I suggest you learn the difference.

Fact: Nothing solid has *EVER* been produced or discovered to prove the existence of GOD. Nothing. Period. S/He's some mythical, magical being that people are supposed to just "have faith" in the fact that s/he *does* exist. You just have to 'believe'... just like Santa Claus...

A prejudice is a preconceived notion or belief about someone, be it race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., that is NOT based on FACT.

Fact: The people who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors in the parking lot have claimed that "GOD told me to do it"...

Fact: George W Bush claims that GOD chose him to be pResident, and guides him in the "war on terra"

Fact: These people are crazy.

Fact: 'MAN' wrote the bible.

Fact: A 'man' wrote Aesop's Fables

Fact: there is no difference between the bible & Aesop's Fables. They're both fairy tales.

Please provide me with a link to some proof of the existence of God, I'd appreciate it *very* much.

PEACE!

Ghost

You suggested that it's "nuts" to believe in God, and that it is therefore justifiable to feed believers to lions. (does that just go for Christians, or are we going to toss Jews and Muslims into the pit too?)

Whether or not God(s) exists, or whether believing in him/her/it/them is nuts, is not really relevant; what you suggested is that it is justifiable/understandable to punish or kill "nuts" people such as Christians. I'm really not sure how being so intolerant of people believing differently from you - even if you decide that their beliefs are "nuts" - that you would condone their murder is progressive.

And before you jump all over me, yes, I realize you were probably "joking," and no, I'm not religious. I just don't think you should be all surprised when you post something as inflammatory as "no wonder they got fed to the lions" and then get a negative response, and furthermore, it's sort of disingenuous to act like your comment was just part of a prosaic debate on the existence of God, as if the nonexistence of God somehow makes it more acceptable to feed people to lions.

You alone have the responsibility of disciplining your child.

Next you'll be insisting that the parents who fucked up their kids bad enough to feel they need to resort to shipping them off to a fucking camp to improve their behavior are like, responsible for how mentally damaged their children are.

I think I'll just leave it at that.

:mad:

For not doing enough research into who they were handing their kid over to for over a month's time.

And they're making adolescents run? Let's start out with that fact: heat exhaustion is so conducive to spirituality.

This is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to start. I'm not a Christian, but I don't believe that anywhere in the New Testament does it recommend mistreating people as a means to conversion. Unfortunately, this goes along with centuries of Inquisition and enslavement of native people.

Jesus wept.

Running in Texas heat in August is pretty abusive to begin with and I'm actually stunned that issue was not even addressed. I guess dragging a kid behind a van is so overwhelmingly disgusting that it seemed to make the running in the heat part "normal".

...no, I suppose not. There are some things even Estados Unidos Mexicanos would do (I mean that in the good sense, of course)

Of course not. Where else would they send the people they are unwilling to keep in their society.

"Your fans are Christian church goers Johnny. They don't want to listen to a recording of you going to a prison and cheering up a bunch of murderers and rapists"

"Then they're not Christian."

I sort of hope Johnny said that in real life at some point, or something like it.

I always thought Johnny had a pretty good handle on what it meant to be a Christian.

our lords and masters who over see the dominion of media should have their heads examined with a hammer for deciding that tapeworms like falwell{may he never ever rest in peace}, robertson, dobson, and others speak for christians.

they are power hungry, money grubbing lunatics.

Tying a girl to the back of a van and dragging her like that?

What else could it be but the work of Satan?

And wasn't it in Texas that a man was chained to the back of a truck and dragged to death?

:eyes:
rocknation

Which of the two perps do you think had the PhD in Child Psychology?
These are some of the people who sneer when they speak the name of Dr. Spock.

This is a story about two of a business/organization's employees assaulting someone.

For now, I look at the story and take religion out of it. There's no indication from the story that this behavior had anything to do with specific policies or beliefs of the institution. These "boot camps" for "at risk" teens are all pretty dangerous in my view, and the "get tough and scare kids straight" kind of approach to dealing with troubled youths is not just a religious approach. There are all kinds of these sort of "boot camps" secular or faith-based and they are all really disturbing in my opinion.

These attitudes of "get tough" with troubled kids encourages workers to go to far. It's too easy to develop authoritarian attitudes as well as a genuine disdain for the kids. It breeds this kind of stuff, and you don't need any religious component for that.

There's nothing in the story to indicate that their actions were even remotely connected to anything directors of this camp would have approved of. For all we know, they could have been absolutely mortified that this happened.

Or, it really could be connected to an underlying religious philosophy and the actions could have been in keeping with exactly what the camp thought was appropriate. But I don't see anything in this story that tells us one way or the other about that, so people who are posting on this thread saying "that's religion for you!" or "there's Christian love in action" are being disingenuous and demonstrated a sad lack of reason by allowing their opinion to be governed by a confirmation cognitive bias rather than by careful reasoning and objectivity.

It is an example of the ways many in this community let the confirmation bias rule what they say and do - you don't like religion, so every where you look you see only things that can be interpreted to support that dislike of religion and regularly toss objectivity and reason out the window in the process.

... GENIUS!!!!


EDIT: It's because of such duplicity that I don't feel bad *in the least* for picking on religion and all things religion-based. If their supporters would spend even a little bit of time trying to clean up their own house, rather than deceiving and sweeping under the rug, I might be inclined to lighten up.

But I'm not a supporter of religion. I'm a supporter of logical rationality and objectivity.

There is a larger problem of these kinds of "get tough" camps. Or do you somehow think that these camps only exist if they are founded by a religious organization? That's not correct. The broader problem is a "strict father" kind of approach to dealing with kids that creates a kind of environment where this sort of thing happens. Religion can be one way this sort of environment is created. Secular conservatism can be another.

I don't feel I have enough information from a three paragraph yahoo news article to start making sweeping statements of a "that's religion for you" kind of variety. It feels a little bit too much like people who WANT something to be true jumping at any opportunity, even without enough information or sufficient context, to use as an excuse.

1. The tough love concept invariably leads to this kind of abuse;

2. This is a religious organization and should receive no governmental support whatsoever, in any form, whether it is direct funding or indirect funding or (most commonly) the siphoning of offenders into their un-scientifically based "program."

The relevance of the two issues to each other: the government sending troubled kids to be tortured by religious freaks is something we should all be mad about--even if we are religious freaks ourselves.

But I can't tell from the article if the organization itself is "freakish" or if it employed some bad people. In other words, would the organization itself - its founders, board, owners, whatever - think "well its a shame these people got in trouble for doing the right thing with those kids!" or would they think, "this is horrific that these people would do something like this, its not at all what we wanted or envisioned when we started this place."

I dunno. I could easily imagine either being true.

Flowers, the camp's director, ordered Bassitt to run alongside the girl after she fell behind, according to the affidavit. When the girl stopped running, Bassitt yelled at her and pinned her to the ground while Flowers tied the rope to her, according to the affidavit.

(My emphasis.)

:thumbsup:

The camp director is an employee of the camp. Having been a director before, I know that I certainly didn't found the organization or set its mission or charter. I would be interested in knowing whether or not these employees were carrying out behavior considered appropriate and in accordance with the mission and charter of the organization, in a way that would have been supported by its board, BoT, founders or owners or if it would have been considered instant grounds for termination.

Anyone familiar with the story of the camp in, I believe it was Tennessee, where these "drill sergeant" types would attempt to break the wills of "troubled kids?" It has no religious basis whatsoever. It was just a bunch of conservative nut jobs. And the entire organization was founded on the idea of truly abusing kids to break their wills and get them to be submissively obedient. They would lock them up in solitary confinement, humiliate them by stripping them naked and forcing them to sleep outside in the mud.... I can't even remember what else. But ALL of it was argued to be appropriate and for the "good" of the child, and NONE of it had anything to do with religion.

That's my point. Authoritarian Religious structures totally suck, and they are dangerous and harmful to people, especially kids. Religious zealotry is a horrible problem responsible for a great many evils in the world today. I am not a religious person myself, and refuse to participate in any organized religious institution specifically because of my criticisms of such things.

But all I want is to be objective, and not let what we WANT to see skew our ability to see clearly. That's it. Anyone who acts like this community doesn't struggle with confirmation bias day in and day out is kidding themselves.

So - could it be the nutso religious views of the founders of the institution that created the environment for this to occur? Yup. Do I feel like I have enough information to know that for certain and to start using this story as an excuse to badmouth all religion? Nope. That's all I'm saying.

Your point is based on disassociation of the actions from the camp's Christian aspects, but the actions were carried out in part by the camp director — whom, we may safely assume, considers himself a Christian; otherwise, it's not likely he'd be the director.

I agree that it isn't fair to say this is typical of Christians, but it's no less fair than associating Republics with lying, cheating, stealing, etc.

They admitted that "outsiders" would consider their treatment of these children as "harsh". And when asked about this specific incident the woman (wife) actually giggled on camera. You would have to have seen the interview -- they knew EXACTLY what was going on -- and from their responses to the interviewer, I'd say this is only the tip of the iceberg... or pitchfork.

Yes, calling for objectivity rather than drawing conclusions from bias is a bad thing, I know. :eyes:

If we believe absurdities we will commit atrocities. So said Voltaire. And it is true.

I agree that this is more a case against "tough love" but I don't know that I can absolve the religious angle entirely. It takes a distinct belief to deaden one's natural compassion to come to the aid of those in pain. And these people seem to be full in their faith that they are doing good. Even in the after math there seems to be a dearth of empathy from them.

..rather than looking for an excuse to confirm biases already held about "religion."

These kinds of stories come out of these kinds of "camps" very frequently. I know because its part of my job to know. There is no necessary connection to whether the camp has some kind of faith background or whether it is just a conservative authoritarian "strict father" secular kind of camp.

It's totally possible that the situation in this case was directly connected to the camp's religious perspective, and that the behavior of the employees was encouraged and enabled by the people who run the program.

It's just we don't know that from the three paragraph long story posted on yahoo. So jumping to that conclusion only exposes the biases of this community, nothing more.

"It takes a distinct belief to deaden one's natural compassion to come to the aid of those in pain."

No it doesn't. It doesn't take religious "belief" - it takes some kind of conditioning. That conditioning might be religious, or it might be social and cultural factors that have created a subconscious incapacity to feel empathy. People act without empathy towards others all the time and have no religious belief. All murders, rapists, criminals are not "believers." People commit crimes against other people for reasons that can include indoctrination and dogma or selfishness or pathology.

"I agree that this is more a case against "tough love" but I don't know that I can absolve the religious angle entirely."

A very reasonable thing to say. I agree I don't know that we can absolve the religious component to what happened. Which is why I choose to wait and see what additional information comes out. Maybe then we'll discover if the camp itself was run in such a way where its very policies and procedures encouraged this kind of thing to happen.

It's a really good recent book about this. I started a couple threads about this and you might find it illuminating about some "progressive" posters have to say about this. It's a bit of a pet issue of mine.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6726154

And

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1407881

Most of the worst abuses that go on in these camps are from secular groups. These places are atrocious, but it doesn't really have much to do with religion.

And often they have other children commit the worst abuses, in exchange for special privileges, much like the CAPOS during the Holocaust. This also lets the leaders off the hook of being responsible for the brutality.

I dare you.

And WTF are these horrible "secular groups" you speak of?

I await your answer. WITH documentation.

You've been on here long enough to know I don't make up stuff and post it. While some of these groups have a religious affiliation, not all do, especially the wilderness survival programs. You're not the committee I'm arguing my dissertation in front of.

Here's a link that should wet your demand for documentation:
http://nospank.net/boot.htm

I also think you should read the book, "Help at any Cost," which I discusses further up in the thread. Also, look up the group Synanon, The Seed, and Straight, Inc. None of which are affiliated with any religion.

I read your links very carefully. And I can admit that I see no clear links to Christian fundamentalism, although there there are a few.

It's just that whenever the word "secular" is mentioned, it usually implies "atheist".

Perhaps it's just the whole concept of the "boot camp" that sets me off. AFAIK, we have NOTHING like this here in Canada and if so, then certainly NOT government sponsored in any way.

If a child is deemed too violent for society, they're committed to special GOVERNMENT institutions, not thrown to "for-profit" fly-by-night operations, unlike those seen in your links.

Perhaps that's where the answer lies. Better regulation of standards and a reduction in the "profit motive" behind so many of these camps.

Again, I apologize, it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part.

And while these aren't government-sponsored, we do have government officials recommending these, along with pediatricians.

Sometimes, while they may be based in the US, they have their actual camps located outside the US to further skirt the laws.

And I was just using "secular" to means that they aren't linked to a church.

We have our faults that are almost as grievous. Our "Residential Schools" scandal is still playing out.

Just Google "Kingsclear" or "Mt. Cashel".

We have nothing to be proud about.

Farming out governmental functions to private groups. It's worse if the groups are religious because that's another violation of the founding principles of our country.

When you put corrections in the hands of private interests, they make sure the industry grows. That's about 80% of what's wrong with this country IMO.

I was actually wondering about these institutions the other day, and what their effect was. It looks to me like they do far more harm than good. And I got to say, how pathetic is it that we have to essentially torture our children to get them to behave? Something is very wrong with this picture.

The recidivism rate is actually quite bad for these places. Seriously, if you're interested in reading more, about this check out the book I mentioned above or the novel, "Boot Camp" by Todd Straussman (I think). Both are excellent.

Also, Midlodemocrat, a mental health professional, has spoken out against these places and says she refused to further counsel families who insisted on sending their children to such camps.

...you'll usually find a wannabe Drill Instructor, or a drill who was drummed out of the service for abusive behavior directed toward trainees, and these "camps" are usually based on some sort of twisted military doctrine. In the case of Buddy Day (or Charles Eugene, your pick) Flowers you can see that his methodology falls along this bent.

The web site for this sick twist is here: http://www.faith-outreach.org/

In the fundie groups, any idiot who can sound out the words in the Bible can declare himself a "minister."

I just sent them an e-mail thanking them for ensuring that I will have to spend the forseeable future explaining to unbelieving friends and family just exactly what real Christianity is NOT about...

Put 'em in jail...10 years, no parole, at least. And no more "children's ministry". Ever. Period.

That is some scary shit but it sounds eerily out of a scene from Vacation.

how could you do that to a child? These people are bullies. I would like to drag them behind my jetta--on the 15 freeway to Vegas then we will see how they like it.

Spare the rope and the van, spoil the child.

:shrug:

then show me the hatred.

has NOTHING to do with LOVE.
Christian Child/teen Abuse camps. Beat the fear of authority into them. Whip the children until they bleed humiliate them hang them on a torture device and claim that's love.

I wish every child abuser adult,every asshole who thinks a full grown adult smacking a child is OK to feel ashamed.Authoritarians are bullies.

Imagine a world without abusers. A world where abuse was seen as toxic as cyanide gas,to humanity. A world where big/more powerful people don't hit/exploit smaller/younger/less powerful people to control them and prop up insecure egos. Imagine an asshole free world.
Want it?

Stop tolerating intolerable people doing unspeakable things.
Stop the abusers and bullies in any way necessary to make them stop.Make the boundaries clear.Demonstrate to the bully that the bullies choices are intolerable and WRONG.Speak to the bully in their bully language of dominance and submission. In this way you can make sure it costs the bully personally too much to violate the interpersonal/social conduct boundaries required of each of us to make it safe to relate to others again.Authoritarians are intolerable people and they make humanity,and society SICK.

"Suffer little children"

Incidently, would the religious apologists who claim that there are far more "secular" boot camps than "christian" ones please be aware that most of these places are run by "christians" on "christian" principles. The evil clowns who ran this particular little hell hole just marketed themselves specifically to the christian fundementalist crowd i.e. they made supposed christianity their USP (Unique Selling Point).

Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.

It was good for our mothers.
It was good for our mothers.
It was good for our mothers.
And it's good enough for me.


Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.


Makes me love everybody.
Makes me love everybody.
Makes me love everybody.
And it's good enough for me.


Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.


It has saved our fathers.
It has saved our fathers.
It has saved our fathers.
And it's good enough for me.


Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.


It will do when I am dying.
It will do when I am dying.
It will do when I am dying.
And it's good enough for me.


Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.


It will take us all to heaven.
It will take us all to heaven.
It will take us all to heaven.
And it's good enough for me.


Give me that old time religion
Tis the old time religion,
Tis the old time religion,
And it's good enough for me.

I wonder if she loved Big Brother? You can't even make this shit up.

New Horizons Youth Ministries in the Domincan Republic. The staff beat the kids with belts (called them "swats"), humiliated the kids, all outside of US territory, where they weren't bound by US law (and could keep the kids past their 18th birthday, if the parents were willing to keep paying).


There are good church-run programs (Father Flannigan/Boystown) and bad ones. The good ones invite inspectors into their places, the bad ones try to lock them out.

Pity we can't give those fuckers the needle.

didn't deny it. They talked about their objectives, as if the end justifies the means. I guess they'd feel it was okay to kill them if they thought it would prevent "the devil from getting ahold of them."

:mad: