An Obscure Point Made By A C-Span Caller

Two Epiphanies in two days. This must be a record.

A person called in to Washington Journal this morning during the last half hour, when open-phone discussions on any subject are welcome, and asked the most interesting question. If the voice paints a good picture this was an older black woman with little education - but she may be an economic genius.

Much of the discussion this morning, as it has been many mornings, centered around workers from South and Central America. These people are almost always refereed to as illegal aliens, and maybe many of them are. Caller after caller complained that in their area (generally the south) no work could be found at a livable wage and the reason put forward was that the "mexicans will work for $5.00 an hour". Of course there was the usual tripe about 'them' living in hovels, 20 to a room, filth everywhere. This is followed by the usual complaint that 'then they don't even spend the money here, but they send it home to all their relatives'.

Here is what the good woman asked, and I paraphrase: "Well, what's all that money worth?" At first the question didn't make sense. Then it sunk in. That $5.00 per hour might be nothing to us here, but if the worker can send $20 home ever friday and home happens to be a small village somewhere in Guatemala, just what is the value of that $20 down there? In other words just how good a job is the worker who has made their way to American doing at supporting their family back home?

Let me re ask the lady's question another way. If you were a truck driver from a poor area of this country and because there was little work for you in your home area you left home and took a job driving a truck in Iraq for Halliburton so that you could send home $75,000 per year would you be doing the right thing?

CCC enrollees worked 40 hours a week and were paid $30 a month (roughly equivalent to $425 today), with the requirement that $25 of that be sent home to family. My father worked in the CCC camps in the mid-30s ... both using his own name and that of another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

my son and I have talked about this before. With the bridges, roads and everything falling apart in this country, instead of complaining, why don't they start a sort of WPA project like they did in the 30's.

Pay the people a living wage not exurbanite, but enough for a family to live on. Let they do the work to rebuild this country. Our tax money would go to a good use and people on unemployment would be able to get a job and feel as if they were doing something.

This country HAS to be back on it's feet. But as I said the republicans have no interest in doing that. As long as they keep the lower middle class and the poor down, then the rich will be able to fund elections and the average person won't have a chance. The reason the current democrat candidates are getting any money is because a lot of the business in this country are not yet under the republican thumb. Just an idea.

It's an interesting conundrum. The 'public' seems quite willing to pay between $25,000 and $40,000 per year to incarcerate a prisoner - which includes their "cost of living" without any family - but pretends that a full-time worker is 'worth' as little as $11,300 per year. There's something fundamentally imbalanced or corrupt about public policies with such a great disparity.

I'm getting very bored by some folks here who look out of their ivory tower simply to take better aim when they piss on the opinions of people with whom they have no common experience.

After all, that's a common phase we go through when we get our "book learning" before our "life learning." There's something very narcissistic about "discovering" the world from the sterile confines of a classroom or library. It's a lot like reading the Michelin Guide (or having it read to you) without ever visiting the hotels or restaurants described ... and then regarding one's self as 'well-informed.'


"I can speak authoritatively about riding a bicycle because I read about it - or my brother rode one."
:wtf:


:rofl:

I love DU. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding men female. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding gays straight. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding the military people who never served. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding Viet Nam people who were never there or weren't even born then. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding abortion people who can't get pregnant. Only on DU are the most vocal experts regarding the working poor people who have incomes over $40K/year.

Maybe that's not fair. I guess it's not "only on DU." But DU sure makes it easy to display ignorance. I know. I do it all the time.

:evilgrin:

I don't know how much we truly agree on, but we certainly agree on who shouldn't be expressing their "expert opinions" on it.

dangerous and tax free. The money to pay the driver comes from the US and
goes back to the US.
The other case, the money comes from the US and goes to Mexico.

Re: the caller's statement - she spoke the truth. I can give a prime example.
One of the neighbors is an immigrant from Mexico, here on a working visa. He told
me last year, he purchased 200 acres in Mexico for the mere price of $1200 US. He
also said that for Mexico prices he paid far too much for it but, he was here
working so that he could buy land and build a home for his large, extended family
in Mexico. He told me that his family would be working on the property while
he is working here. Other than what it costs him to live, everything else he
makes is sent home.

I cannot find it now but, I do recall reading that something like 24 billion dollars
went from the US to Mexico via immigrant workers - a lot of it tax-free. I cannot
recall the time frame, whether it was a year or over a three year span, either way,
it is a lot of drain on the money in the economy here.

its economy, never that good, has actually deteriorated since NAFTA and is not generating enough jobs to even come close to employing everyone. If they didn't have the "safety valve" of people supporting their families wiith remittances from the U.S., there would probably be a violent revolution there.

They produced something for the money they were paid - presumably they built your homes and tended your children, cleaned your pools and mowed your lawns. How is that a drain on your economy?

It is any more or less a drain when you go to work for a company and the profits from that company are paid out to stockholders in Japan? Is it any more or less a drain on your economy when half of the residents shop at Wal Mart, the marketing arm of the Chinese Government, regularly?

I don't mean this in any mean way. I'm just saying that its hard to point the blame of failing local economies on the people who are working. If there is a drain to be noted it would be that some taxes are not being paid to these poorly paid workers. One argues that they don't pay income taxes - but no one who is making minimum wage pays income taxes. It can not be argued that they don't pay sales taxes though and they have to live somewhere and their rent pays property taxes after it passes through the hands of the slumlord

I see your point. A certain point of economic stability relies on the 'internal
circulation of money'. Normally it is big corps like Halliburton that operate
on a global level circulating money in the global economy.
Generally laborers and middle class working consumers drive the internal circualtion
of money in an economy.
It is not to blame them for the failure of the economy, it is to point out one
tiny fraction of the broken mess that it is. I actually admire this guy, he works
extremely hard, 2 jobs, and does yard work anytime he can. Totally genuine, he
is one of the best neighbors we have ever had - kinfolk included!

How much did you send to China last month? How many things did you buy that were made in China? How many government services did you use that were paid for by money borrowed from China? How much tax did you get out of paying because we borrowed the money from China rather than tax you?


Think about it.

globalized and localized as seperate to see how each moves and
interacts with the other. I have worked with figures at a 'localized'
company (US) and then left there to work with a 'globaalized' business.
The difference astonished me to see it on paper. They work tightly
enmeshed up to a certain point.
As far as the localized economy of the US goes, any money that is tax
free, that does not go back into the localized economy, is a drain of
the cash flow.

I also have supported American made goods for a long time. I have worked
Union work and believe strongly in buying American. We have a small 40 acre
farm and grow the majority of our food, and raise a few head of livestock
every year for meat. I cannot tell you the last foreign made product I
have purchased, maybe my PC...it is 4 yrs old.

matter who works for them.

There are very few immigrants that do not pay taxes if any.


So many of these arguments are based on false premises to start with and that makes the argument untrue.

Yes it's true, that $20 in Guatemala is most likely equal to $100+ here, and when you have NOTHING, that $20 could be the difference between life and death! However IMO, the US employers are abusing these workers by grossly underpaying what the job is worth, and purely for personal greed. By continuing to hire people at sub-standard wages, they are creating MORE people who cannot afford to support their families. There are many ex construction workers who USED to make a nice living who are now unemployed because they CAN'T afford to work for $5.50 like the poor immigrents who live 20 people to a house.

The wage will not go back up and the immigrants will not go home. Try to see what can be done with the situation if reality were to enter the picture.

In many areas the immigrants have gained a living wage. That is true in the hotel service industry in some cities.

Or sit on your ass an bitch about something that you can't change.

That's just another reason the greedy employers are hiring them. They tell them this is how much I pay. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. If you cause trouble, I'll call INS.

Now what is management going to do? :)

Another C-span caller recently pointed out that we should be ensuring that the countries where these workers originate are not investing in jobs for their own citizens --

In fact, we seem to do everything we can to keep Mexico from advancing re jobs --

Mexico is invested heavily in American debts -- WHY?

We want to keep Mexico a third world country --

We want the labor -- but the GOP also wants a racist immigrant issue --

for food electric and rent there?.........what does $20. buy...that was a good question.....

Shit.

back to Mexico is down about 34% because people seem to be afraid of being deported. How those two things go together, I don't know. Maybe saving up in case they can't work and have to get home or?

I laugh when I hear Repugnicans get in snits about those "damn illegals" while their lawn is cut, their food cooked to order, their offices cleaned up and many other thinks they assume are "given" because they are white and Repugnican. It's a fear...one of my Repugnicans love to live in...where strange is just wrong...since they don't speak English, look funny and may just vote Democratic.

It doesn't matter if the Spanish speaker is from Nogales or Colombia or Puerto Rico or Spain, they're all put in the same box and demonized. It's their fear that feeds into bigotry that, thanks to Lou Doobies and other GOOP operatives, have made the Mexicans and Hispanics in general the new Gays within the GOOP. They're "alien" thus they must be eliminated from our society...be it by rounding them up in cattle cars and "shipping them back". It feels good to pound the chest, feel superior and find a scapegoat for one's own inadequecies.

Kudos to the corporate media for giving those who hire and continue to use any form of cheap labor (while charging you "always the highest lowest price that counts. Repgunicans feel a lazy society is their birthright.

I've heard they're paying up to that much.

As far as the woman's point, it's cute but irrelevant. These employers are exploiting those undocumented workers and at the same time driving down wages and increasing unemployment for Americans. Nothing positive results from exploitation. Sorry.