I saw a thread here that posted a link to websites selling Amish-style clothes, calling it scary. Apparently the poster confounded the Amish with the Evangelical community. The Amish are actually pacifists who don't want to impose their views on you; in fact, they won't even let you become one of them if you wanted to.

The Mormons may be a different story, but there were some remarks making fun of how Mormons wear special undergarments.

Is this sort of behavior OK?

I'm a Christian, so I naturally view the theological views of the Mormons as strange; but I don't think it's right to deride them rudely.

Do we really want to be like FReepers, who refer to Muslims as "Mudslimes"? I hope not.

We should be tolerant of all religious groups. Obviously, we shouldn't be so tolerant of the Evangelical community's attempt to turn American into a "Chris-chun nation"; but we can criticize their political views without insulting Christianity itself.

Can't we?

were neighbored on three sides by amish farmers 10 years ago when as a vet she was a herd health specialist (lancaster county great place for one) they were nice and deserved respect we had jokes about them (especially that they could keep eletrical and phones and such that past owners left--- as long as they werent convenient) ---- imagine Mr. Douglas in green acres and his phone. But never to their face

As a former Mormon or LDS person I can certainly understand how easy it is to pick on the quirks of the LDS culture and practices. I also respect many things about the LDS church but loathe the oppressive culture and much of the more blatantly sexist dogma. I think it's ok to poke fun or call out the crap if you're a former Mormon trying to expell the frustration and demons that build up, but when others do it without having actually lived it, they're not speaking from a fair perspective. It's kind of like if I made fun of the Jewish Hassidic costumes without understanding or respecting the culture and teachings behind them. As a Jewish person I'd find it offensive, even if I didn't practice that brand of religion. My recommendation is that unless you've been there, Keep Your Mouth Shut. As in most messed up families, it's ok for the family members to deride each other, but if someone else calls your sister a hor, them's fightin words!!

By the way, I think Mitt Romney is a corporate sellout flip flopper and a good haired charletan. He's a poor representation of what most Mormons would like to emulate. He's an idiot and media prostitute who will say and do anything to get elected and be the cardboard puppet that the Repugs want in place to continue their rape of our economy and line their pockets with war and oil profits. The public shouldn't worry about him imposing LDS standards or beliefs on anything since he only uses those convieniently when he can get some gain from it. The rest of the time he's a huge hypocrite.

Whether anyone invites you to dinner afterwards is another matter.

Is it alright to make fun of how Jews wear kippot?

whoops. :)

It is certainly one's right to make fun of whomever they wish. But as was suggested don't expect to be invited to dinner with them.

The problem is that sometimes other's beliefs can include beliefs that we find humorous or even socially destructive. The hatred generated by some fundamentalist Christians can for example be seen as a valid target for rejection or even ridicule in order to make a point.

So where does one draw the line? Do you seek to include many beliefs in your tent or do you wish to only embrace those you hold? That as I suggested depends on your goals. Your actions will have repercussions and it is probably a good idea to consider them when deciding whether to poke at another's beliefs.

We joke that they exist so that the men can cover up their bald spots. BTW, I believe that some Orthodox Jews do wear special undergarments.

But that doesn't seem to matter one bit to some people.

Very little separates them from the Freepers.

harming all of us when you harm someone for essentially unimportant trappings. People can disagree on policy. What people wear is really a pathetic thing to deride another about. Its dishonest and I think it shows a lot about a person's integrity. I can dislike Mormon actions but I don't care about their underwear. Truly. :)

Make war on ideas, not underwear.

If you make war on their ideas, you'll eventually have to deal with the underwear issue too.
In the world of Mormon, these aren't just another kind of Hanes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_underwear

It's not like an episode of "What Not to Wear".

edited to add:...I'm probably going to continue to make war on both their ideas and their underwear. They are equally ridiculous.

IMO it would be a lot more rude to make fun of the person than a particular religious practice.

BTW why should the kippot or christians wearing crosses etc. be off limmits for making fun of?

Are they " fair game" too?

Insensitivity reigns supreme.

Again, it is fine to say whatever you want to. The social consequences are what you should be worried about.

How words can destroy people
should be a concern, but to you
it obviously isn't.

Friggin unbelievable-- how did the Tom Morello song
paraphrase it so well?--

" Unforgivable but true."

The point is that there ARE consequences for words, if you would stop your useless self-righteous whining and read the goddamn posts. Fucking unbelievable is right.

OF COURSE THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR ONES ACTIONS!

My point is not saying the heart and soul destroying
words in THE FIRST PLACE- once said, they are out there!

Self- righteous?!?

My son is disabled, you condescending person.

If your whole point was

- you can say what you what as long as you take responsibility
for your actions ( see?- I got it first time around)

you had a hell of a way of saying it
AND

I disagree!

So get off your high horse and read what I'm writing!

Ay-Dios Mio!

And you didn't get it the first time, or the second time. It has nothing to do with "taking responsibility for your actions." It is about OTHERS taking responsibility for the community. But you just want to be mad. You like being outraged. You even love it. You go around looking for stuff to be outraged about. Mad at the world or something. So it hardly pays to deal with you. If I gave you roses, you'd say you were allergic and how dare I. It's a sad life you lead there.

From " Ya nut" to this---


Listen, Herr Doctor,

I don't know who you're projecting this about,
but it's not me.

I'm defending those who can't defend themselves.

"It's OK to make fun of anyone"
"The point is that there ARE consequences for words"
" It has nothing to do with "taking responsibility for your actions."
It is about OTHERS taking responsibility for the community."

This discussion ceases to amaze me.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Last I checked you don't get jailed for being an insensitive asshat. If you did, just imagine the over-crowding.

of people making fun of any religion, but I'm a Catholic and I've learned to shrug off the chiding of them! I was called a Mickey for years when I lived in Pa. and when I moved to the South I was told I belonged to a cult!

I don't think anyone is chiding God, just the strange (to some) practices of the ones we are unfamiliar with.

I don't mind it so much when Christians are made fun of. Sometimes it goes overboard and turns into a hate-fest, but if it's good-natured then I don't mind. But when I see insults geared at religious minorities like the ones I listed, I just feel bad. How would a Mormon DUer or lurker feel if he or she read that sort of stuff?

It's not nice.

I rarely post here anymore. I rarely read the boards anymore. 100% because of how rampant the ant-mormon sentiment here has been since Romney started his run.

I got extremely tiered of the anti-mormon garbage that is posted here and when you try to correct misconceptions and outright bigotry it goes no were. The same posters keep posting the same hate filled garbage over and over. There are liberal democrats that are LDS (mormon) or have LDS families - and most of us I assume are just leaving or laying low until Romney is out of the race - Im hoping he doesn't get the nomination because I love DU and hate coming here to find something that is dear to my history and family attacked on a board that I contribute money and time too.

feel free to message me, and I'll alert on it if you don't want to or at least let them know they aren't following DU rules. I've alerted on some of the anti-mormon posts in the past.

I saw the one referenced in the OP, I typed a response and then ended up deleting it, but I should have just posted it, I guess. I get so tired of having to decide on every other post here whether to let bigotry slide, confront it, or alert ... it helps to hear the voices of people who are directly affected by it. Thanks for speaking up.

I've only personally know 2 Mormons in my life. One was a neighbor and a very nice lady. She had kids the same age as mine. She invited me to a lunch at her church once. I didn't know anything about the LDS, and she didn't even say it was at her church. I joined her and we took the kids. I can honestly tell you there was NO proselytizing at all. The only way I even knew it was a church lunch was the flyers laid out on the windowsill.

The other Mormon was a coworker. I must admit he made me a bit unconfortable because when things got hectic and I had to deal with stupid people, I tend to get a bit colorful with my language, and there were times he was outside my office and I didn't realize it. I saw him shy away and blush every time. I'm not blaming him. That kind of behavior was just unacceptable to him. I simply don't have enough self control to remain calm AFTER I hang up the phone!!!!!!

It's wrong to classify all Mormons as the same just as much as it's wrong to classify all Catholics, Evangelicals, Jews, or any other members of a religion as being the same.

I don't dislike Mitt because he's a Mormon. I dislike him because I think he will say anything just to get elected!

For me, that would be like smiling nicely and looking the other way while someone makes racist comments. I don't like leaving people in peace to be their bigoted selves here; it looks like we're condoning it.

How about the Church's efforts to defeat any type of gay equality legislation in this country? Isn't that also bigotry? And how do you feel about the Church's interference in political matters? Their participation in the defeat of the Equal Rights Amendment, for example?

Bigotry comes in many forms Sister, and in many places. And yes, some of it in churches.

Wake up America!:kick:

Atheists don't have a patent on bigotry.
Churches don't have a patent on bigotry.

Seems to be plenty to go around for everyone.

I was raised in the Church, and have left because there are too many things I cannot personally reconcile with the Church. There are many good, decent persons that are Mormons. A good many. Bigotry against ANY religion is completely inappropriate and should never be tolerated. Our Founders crafted the Constitution to guarantee personal religious freedom for all. Each persons beliefs and faiths should be considered sacrosanct. That said, because of organized religion's special statuses and protections, it must NEVER interfere in the political affairs of this country. Religious conviction and faith are deeply personal and should stay that way--personal.

I am not condoning or justifying religious bigotry on DU, or anywhere else, for that matter. However I do understand the frustration and anger that can lead to such outburst and backlash. We as individuals should strive to lift ourselves above bigotry in any form--religious, racial, sexual, gerontal. And organized religion IN ANY FORM should also strive to lift itself from bigotry and undue influence.

Wake up America!:kick:

I'm an active, church attending Mormon, and also an active Democrat and union member, and have been a DUer for quite some time. I don't think the whole world has to agree with my religious views, and I don't feel like I'm out there imposing them on anyone. The only way I'd vote for Mitt Romney is if we caught his Democratic challenger a week before the election smoking crack in a cave with Osama Bin Laden and a naked cub scout troup. Even then, I'd have to think about it.

I get tired of correcting the misconceptions, too. I have no problem with the fact that there are people on DU who aren't exactly like me, but some of the constructive critcism of Romney and other Mormons crosses over into the ridicule category.

And no, my underwear isn't "magic" nor is it really anyone else's business.

Please stick around, FreeState. I'd like to talk to you.

which I don't understand.

When I was out West many years ago, I spent some time working with a Mormon fellow. He was about the nicest guy you could ever meet. When the new recruits come to town on their mission, I always take the time to pull over on my bicycle and say hi. I tell them I'm not interested in joining the religion; instead I tell them I'm playing a game I call "Stump the Mormons." It works like this: they tell me where they're from, and I tell them something about their hometown.

Two years ago, a missionary came through from Springfield, Oregon. Immediately, I brought up Kip Kinkel snf Thurston High. It turns out his sister was in the same class with Kip Kinkel, or knew Kip Kinkel, something like that. Small world.

I read in a newspaper in Ogden UT of interest to the gay community that two-thirds of gay males in Utah have performed a mission for LDS. That ought to smash a stereotype.

One may have the right to make fun of other people, but that doesn't mean it's proper.*

* Not counting Karl Rove, Bush, etc. The sky's the limit for them.

The Church considers homosexuality a major sin and is punishable by excommunication and dis-fellowship. Excommunication is where your membership in the Church is forcibly terminated and you are shunned from the Mormon community. This is no small consequence. The Mormon social fabric is tightly woven. As a member of the Church your are incorporated into that fabric at birth and are enveloped in that fabric until death and even beyond, according to Church doctrine. Your membership in the Church, in some way, shape or fashion, touches just about every aspect of your life. This is the Mormon culture. This is not a criticism, nor a judgment. It is what it is. When you are excommunicated for homosexuality, you become a pariah, an outcast. Your LDS friends, business associates, even your own family are encouraged to abandon you. I know this for a fact. I know persons who have gone through the horror of a Church "trial" because of their homosexuality. Smash a stereotype? With what, your newspaper of interest?

bad keyboarding skills

feels reading your post. Sad.

IMO.

I'm not religious, but my view is that the problem isn't "God" getting chided. The problem is disrespect and bigotry toward individuals.

It was God who set everything up the way it is and we are made in His image.

If that is so, then God has some splainin' to do.

Just sayin'

but we have a long ways to go. I also believe even the most self identified cosmopolitan thinkers can be subconsciously provincial in their views. In conclusion, I believe the most corrupt in power will be more than happy to take advantage of these fault lines, in pursuit of their own agenda.

...

Personally, I believe, no religion has the total picture of the truth, the truth has been fragmented among them. Sort of like the tale of a group of blind men all asked to describe an elephant, each felt one part of the elephant's body and thought they knew the truth.

I also believe there is much commonality within all the religions and myths of the world, even those separated by time and distance and much wisdom can be learned from them, for they speak of the human experience through out history. Not to make light of a phrase, but I believe "the devil is in the details".

I would highly recommend checking out a PBS broadcast series of interviews between Bill Moyers and the late Joseph Campbell which also came out in book form titled "The Power of Myth".

Possibly, one day the absolute truth if there is one, will be exposed to everyone, but until then, I believe the best humanity can expect to do is respect one another's beliefs even if we don't necessarily believe them our selves.

they don't attempt to invest them with the imprimatur of law. Religion has nothing to offer us humans beyond that commonality you mention which basically boils down to the 'golden rule' which of course most other animals understand and adhere to. No deities required. I'll poke around for the Moyers thing...thanks. ;-)

I've seen you try to foist this "I don't care as long as they don't try to push it on me" line before, and it is, invariably, connected to you insulting religious people. If you and others really "don't care" then perhaps you'll show it by not posting unprovoked attacks on entire groups of people. Otherwise, stop the bullshit that you don't have a problem with them.

:applause:

...you're not supposed to argue and get aggressive.

And allow me to offer this helpful advice: it is not only hypocritical to condemn fundies whilst acting like them (telling others how to behave), it also shows that you have neither originality nor a very solid grasp of theology. For your own sake, step back from the cliches.

nt

No one here or anywhere else should think they can insult religious people with impunity, shielding themselves with a tired, lame, and totally off-the-mark trump card of "duh you can't say nuffin you have to turn duh other cheek!" That is a misapplication of the notion. Same thing with forgiveness. One can forgive and simultaneously inform others of the wrong commited. Or perhaps you think if a Christian is mugged they ought not report it to the police?

It's played so often here it's pathetic. You'd think you guys would come up with something a little more fresh, but then again am I not talking to the fellow who called all of DU a bunch of lazy pansies or similar?

....i'm not sure if it's ignorance or dishonesty on your part, but whatever it is, it's annoying. the thread you're referring to is the one where i said our energy is misdirected if we think we can change a corrupt system by trying to work within the rigged system and not thinking outside the box. i'm not sure how many times i have to explain myself to you before it actually sinks in, but i'm already tired of it.

You take care of your house, and we'll take care of ours.

Meanwhile, I need to ask if you are a Christian? It always seems weird to me when people who aren't part of a group think they understand that group better than the people who are IN the group.

I do believe Christians are allowed to discuss. And if Spoony thinks he's telling the truth to this person, there's nothing wrong with trying to point it out.

We are not called to be doormats.

went to catholic schools, forced to go to church on first fridays and holy days of obligation with my class, and made to feel guilty for not showing up to mass on sundays. i got sick of the guilt and fear they use to manipulate children at a young age. i was a fallen catholic pretty early on. as an adult, i moved to the south and saw the hillbilly versions of christianity close up and was impressed even less by them than i was by the holy roman catholic church.

spoony is telling no truth, only showing his hypocrisy.

nobody said you're a doormat. and just because many of us don't buy into your religious beliefs (and maybe we even are very critical of those beliefs) that doesn't mean we don't like you. you have every right to believe what you want and we have every right to point out glaring inconsistencies or downright contradictions in those beliefs. personally, i'm an agnostic. i hope there's some kind of god or higher meaning to life...i just don't claim to know exactly what that god or higher purpose happens to be based on some ancient texts and what some authority figures in a religious/political institution tell me to believe. i have plenty of friends that do take their particular religion or sect seriously or semi-seriously. i happen to think one can be a spiritual person without religion and i would like to see organized religion just go away.

or otherwise subjected to prejudice.

So there are some religious assholes out there. How does making blanket statements about all of Christianity, or Mormon, or what have you, different from making such assumptions based on race or any other criteria.

No one group is "all" anything.

that you and a few others here can't even discuss this subject
without insulting people of faith.

It can be done.
Many, many rational, intelligent people who are atheists have done so.

But then I try to be cool about it because many atheists are former Fundies who are still "recovering" and have alot of anger.

I think that God (whatever one imagines Him/Her/It) to be, is a reflection of the values system of a particular group or society. Be it Yahweh, Allah, GOD, or whatever a group chooses to call (Him/Her/It), they are all right and all wrong.

In all cases, man creates His God in his own image.

I, personally, feel that whatever the Great Cosmic Force may be, it is beyond our understanding, and so Mankind does their best to give a name and identity to it.

Again, just my personal thoughts on this matter.

that you just exemplified the other persons post, or your 'superiority'.

Pardotamaninly greep nubmesty glablinsot?

Nice job.

;-)

:thumbsup:

:hi:

We can only hope.... I think that all religion is gobbledygook...

I was raIsed as a Mormon, became born again, joined the J-W's, wound up as a Hindu and then came to the conclusion that I was chasing my tail -- It's all belief of some God form that man created - I am an atheist for a lot of reasons - mostly it's because it is the only thing that makes any sense, whatsoever for me.

(Whoops! I see I was scooped by MadSpirit.)

Faith is nothing more than untestable belief.

One can believe anything they want, but if they're going to try to convince me of its merit, they'll have to do better than "cuz the holy book says so".

Personally, (by way of example) I think the concept that all people are immortal spiritual beings called thetans, is a crock of shit. I'm sorry that this offends Scientologists, and I'm also sorry that this qualifies me as unevolved.

I see no reason to be any more deferential toward anyone's faith than their beliefs are deferential to mine. People get tax breaks to tell others that I'm going to hell.

I take it back, I don't feel sorry to be unevolved.

:shrug:

I mean... I can say some flat out BS things on a thread destined for popcornelebrity, and yet I'm like the Shadow.

Hee, hee, hee, hee...

Can ya see me now...

:shrug:

I just don't have any comment.

I absolutely have no problem with anyone that has a religious view.... period.... The only time that I have a problem is when someone with that religious view attempts to push it upon me! That to me becomes a very serious outrage, and I have had that happen in my life more times than I can count.... This is very much like homosexuality to me, keep it to yourself, I don't want to/or need to know what goes on in your personal life.... That's my bottom line, and I'm sticking to it!

ww

:pals:

chose a belief system get a pass.
:eyes:

"This is very much like homosexuality to me, keep it to yourself"

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:wtf:

That's like being wary of black people because you think their melanin will leech onto you. Homosexuality isn't contagious, you know.

:eyes:

:eyes:

I can dig that. :D

:rofl:

guess I'll add my :wtf: about "This is very much like homosexuality to me, keep it to yourself, I don't want to/or need to know what goes on in your personal life...."

I couldn't in good conscience read that and not comment.

You expect me to shut up about my personal life while you and your straight friends gab on all day at work about yours? Please.

hehe :bounce:

Think about that in context of your comment, would you?

Being openly gay is NO different than you being openly straight. If you can talk about your family, why shouldn't I be allowed to talk about mine?

Oh hell, I got nothin'.

Tell the other 'zilla I said hi, would you? :D Oh, and we got a car for while we're there, almost for free because I'm a frikkin genius. :D

And that she'll get together some nearby vegan/vegan friendly places to eat for you.

I'm fairly sure you've noticed, but still. :)

Do either of you know of a good hotel in NYC? I got the car taken care of and the hotel out in 'rukaville but I still need to find that and then I'm set.

I just want to point out that this cuts both ways. It's just as offensive for a Christian to try to convert an uninterested person as it is for an atheist to try and covert an uninterested person.

They don't go door to door, but I know plenty of atheists looking for any chance to argue about religion. The worst case I've seen was at an MMA fight I went to with a friend who is a Muslim. A mutual friend of ours was fighting, and many of his friends and training partners where there. One of them came up to her and said "So you believe in God? That's stupid, you have to read the God Dilemma." She hadn't said anything about her faith, or even talked to the guy, but as soon as he knew she was there he wanted to try and convert her. It was offensive and completely uncalled for.

For the record, I am an atheist and have a dim view of organized religion. I realize that just as I dislike people trying to convert me or denigrating my beliefs, people dislike me trying to convert them or denigrating theirs. I only talk about it when I know the other person is interested in having the discussion, and fortunately most atheist and religious people are the same way. It's the few who perpetually want to promote their beliefs who stereotype the rest of us.

I'll be sure to stop the atheist missionaries from coming to your door. :sarcasm:

as soon as you guys start keeping your heterosexuality to yourself. Deal?

Has anyone forced you to have a homosexual sexual experience you did not want to have? Help me understand. How has someone else's homosexuality negatively impacted you? Please explain the "...very serious outrage."

Wake up America!:kick:

And if the people who follow said religions can't take a bit of ribbing on some of the odder practices, then it's really their problem. To be frank, there is zero reason for religious belief to be any more sacrosanct than any other idea.

There does of course come a point where mocking the people for their religious choice is crossed, where it ceases being permissable. Respect the person for a person, even if you think the idea of receiving divine messages from two invisible rocks in a hat is... silly.

In some parts of the world, religion and ethnicity are equivalent. Religion defines who we are, and so having our religion itself attacked- it hurts. Having my political views ridiculed just isn't the same.

But I guess that's just me.

All ideas are subject to skeptical evaluation and criticism. It's how people get past the bad ones and move on to better ideas. Religion is not special in this regard, it still needs to be evaluated and held up to scrutiny.

You were born religious?

I've heard it from both theists arguing for an innate relationship to God and atheists arguing for a neurological basis for religion. So yes, perhaps they were born religious.

On the one hand, you have the religion itself. On the other hand, you have the follower of that religion. The first is a safe target, the second, not so.

For instance, Catholicism. Eucharist is just so... odd. At least to me. you kneel in front of a man in a dress, he gives you some wine, and then places the "flesh of Christ" into your mouth. The ritual, especially in light of recent scandals, certainly seems very strange. But never - never - would I mock someone for engaging in it.

There are people that DO define themselves by their politics. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect others. Will you stop criticizing political beliefs to spare the feelings of those you disagree with?

What about those that define themselves by their art, or sexuality, or their guns, or their tattoos, or their veganism, or their racism, or ...? We shouldn't criticize anything that might offend someone's identity?

Because religion is part of one's personal identity, doesn't make it untouchable.

And I would strongly urge religious and spiritual people to encourage learning and research in themselves and their children. There is MUCH to be learned in researching the origins of religions. Spiritual beliefs need to be as respected as religious ones.

The majority of humans feel that there is a creative power higher than themselves, but many feel that there is no higher power. Oddly enough, the Muslim, Jewish and Christian religions all have their basis in Abraham.

Being more of a pagan type I like the Earth Mother philosophy. This supposedly led to the Mother Mary worship in Catholicism. Whatever. People need to know that their religious beliefs are their own private right. No government should be biased against you because of it. Atheists have every right to their beliefs also.

Main point: politicians try very hard to quilt trip members of certain religions to vote for them, regardless of whether it even makes sense. This is why the the founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state, period. This is why having all the presidential candidates state their religious beliefs is so revolting. An atheist could be the best thing for the white house, because they are not counting on God to forgive them, they only want to help the living.

It really doesn't get any more complicated than that.

the right to have an idiotic belief system should be respected, but there's nothing anywhere that suggests anyone should actually take any of these dumb superstitions even remotely seriously, nor do anything to protect the feelings of those people who believe in such nonsense.

atheists don't "believe" in atheism. basically, that argument more or less claims that in order to breathe air, you must be an airist.

its called basic human decency, or - as I like to put it, because I tend to enjoy the colorful metaphors - not acting like a fucking asshat.

I don't know where we got it in our heads that when we disagree with someone else's perspective we are entitled to act like jackasses about it.

By the way, strong atheism is a belief. Weak atheism is not.

Is it basic human decency to respect Flat Earthers, or Lyndon Larouche reptoid hollow earthers, or Scientologists wanting to dead agent those who disagree with them? Is it basic human decency to respect the rights of huge corporations who insist that their only responsibility is to their shareholders? Is it basic human decency to respect the moral philosophies of Suni or Shite death squads? Is it basic human decency to respect the beliefs of polygamous Fundamentalist Mormons?

No. I will fight for those people's right to have an opinion or a belief, but I sure as shit will never respect those beliefs. The same holds true for any supersitition.

she grew up in a small Amish/ Mennonite community. Most everyone there voted for Democratic candidates because they agreed with most core liberal values ( care for the poor, the environment, wage peace not war, etc.). Most of the people I've met in their town were what I would call "good folks", though I'm sure a few weren't behind closed doors, like anywhere else. I'm an agnostic bordering on atheist, but I wouldn't be a liberal if I didn't believe in freedom of religion.

he was the best cat ever, wish he were still here

http://www.catster.com/cats/100240

But he's far from little. He's a slender 19 pound Maine Coon!

So sorry for the loss of your Bunny :hug:

at the pound where I got him from when he was 6 weeks, but your kitty sure looks like him. I swear I will never love again *overly sad and dramatic gasp* but seriously I havent loved a cat since :loveya:

maybe in the pets group though, as this is off topic ;-).


I've done pet rescue for quite a while and have dealt with a lot of purebreds and mixes. Persians look nothing like Maine Coons. You may have had a Maine Coon mix-they are extremely loyal and gentle cats. Check out more of Oberon's family at www.mainlysilver.com to see if there's a resemblance to the whole breed. I'm not wild about every cat either, but I am partial to the personalities of Maine Coons and Turkish Angoras.

tomorrow I will scan and send you photo of the best cat who ever lived. He realy looks more Maine Coon. He died in 2001 before we had a dig cam.
Cheers!

Easy concept to comprehend and accept.

Granted that this concept is beyond the heads of many conservatives and reactionaries.

But shouldn't we expect better from self described liberals?

Too bad that a couple of immature 'liberals' ruin the waters around here sometimes.

have bastardized expressions of faith. Shoving whatever belief and duplicitous morality down my throat has left me hyper-sensitive to religiosity of any stripe. I respect any individuals belief, without question..and I don't expect to have to explain, define, or express my own. Whatever gets you through the night...

Don't put your religion in my face and I won't have anything to say about it. But when you come knocking on my door be prepared to hear what I have to say.

But seriously folks..

Q: How Many Amish does it take to change a light bulb?
A: No one knows, they haven't had one burn out yet

Generally, ethnic or religious jokes should be kept within the community/faith.
Jokes about each other told to each other are as old as human kind.
Jokes told in a hateful, insulting or derogatory way about "others" are just bigoted.

Is above joke hateful, insulting or derogatory?
No(imho), it's a genre joke and the humor comes from
the contradiction between anything electrical and the Amish.

With a different ending, such as: "no one knows, they are too stupid to use them",
the joke becomes offensive.

It's a fine line, so when in doubt, remain silent.

of someone. Someone 'different', of course. Heinlein expounded on this very well in "Stranger in a Strange Land" as you may know. :-)

> The essence of virtually every 'joke' hinges on either
> the misfortune or supposed ignorance of someone.

That's not really true. Consider:

A horse walks into a bar.
The bartender says:
"Hey buddy, why the long face?"

- or -

A rabbi, a priest, and an atheist walk into a bar.
The bartender says:
"What is this? Some kind of joke?"

Neither of those really hinges on anyone's misfortune
or ignorance, although both punch lines are stated as
questions.

Tesha

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how will they find out about it?!?!!?


:rofl:

Amish monitors are all over the place. They know and they are taking notes. And there will be a reckoning. :hide:

I didn't mean it that way.

at how some of the GOP put down other religions. To me they
are saying there is a superior religion. This leads others
to think they are intent on a Theocracy.

We can poke fun at their political views, but I agree it makes
me uncomortable to see anyone's Relgion attacked or made the
object of derision.

Cheap shots at individuals who have really managed to piss you off may be excepted depending on how humorous or apposite your dig is.


Q. Why don't Baptists have sex standing up? A. Because it might lead to dancing.

Good.

Q. How do you tell the Jewish households on wash days? A. TP on the line. <-- Drag your mouse over the answer if you must.

Bad.

Probably a good rule of thumb when poking fun at any minority would be whether or not you are likely to get a chuckle out of it from a member of that minority.

and then there is out and out demeaning. The former is usually ok, especially if told by a member of that group ( I could reel off a whole pack of Catholic jokes) and the latter is never ok. To immediately categorize someone because of their belief is like doing the same with skin color. Makes. No. Sense.

I try to be the 'live and let live' type, as I don't think anyone here (meaning any religion) has a lock on the 'absolute truth'. Quite frankly, I think we are all being tested by the Almighty to see if we can all play nice and get along, and He or She has thrown us a few curves, if I may, that are testing us. Different belief structures, different teachings. All a part of the plan.

I'll respect your beliefs as long as you aren't trying to browbeat me with some superiority of 'your God' over 'my God'.

And how the heck did you do that 'invisible ink' thing? That'll keep me scratching my head all night!!

There may be a way to use the page background color but I can't figure it out in 2 mins.

puppy mills and mistreating their horses, I will continue to criticize them...Sorry.

To criticize those Amish who run puppy mills or mistreat their livestock for those practices. But it's not okay to attack their religious beliefs, or to suggest that all Amish are animal abusers.

There are things that some Christians (or Buddhists, or Hindus, or Jews, or Atheists) do that violate my personal code of conduct. When that happens, expect me to speak up. But as to denouncing them because they choose to worship - or not worship - their Divine in a way that is different from mine? That would violate my personal ethics.

They are Christians too.

I'm not Christian, so naturally I view you both as strange.

Mormons consider themselves as Christians, and it was insensitive of me to imply that they weren't.

I view their beliefs as strange because they have an entire other book called the Book of Mormon that they place alongside the Bible.

...that you place alongside the "bible". so wouldn't that make you view your own beliefs as strange too?

imagine no religion.

Imagine no crappy John Lennon memes.

nt

Is it "bashing" to ridicule someone's deeply held belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old, or that Dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark? Oh, sure, they're on the School Board and they want to pass it off as science... but of course, it's their religion, so "we" have to be tolerant..

Yes, to merely point out that evolution and the 4.7 billion year old Earth, like gravity, are SCIENTIFIC FACTS is, to some, an unacceptable expression of bigotry against our poor, maligned creationist friends...

How about when some FUCKING IDIOTS in Texas booed Bill Nye the science guy for daring to mention that the Moon reflects light from the Sun, in apparent willful and sinful disobedience to the "facts" as set forth in the Bible? Hmmm. Gotta show respect for them and their beliefs, even as they disrespect... well, essentially thousands of years of knowledge and science.

And that's what this is all about, isn't it? Demands for the religious right to have "respect" for their beliefs, right of conscience, and right to be left the hell alone-- when -News Flash!- the religious right has based their entire fucking AGENDA on NOT respecting other peoples' right of conscience, right to make up their own minds about things, and right to be left the hell alone. Oh, sure, don't make fun of chastity rings or "modesty swimsuits" or any of the other weird shit being peddled by Right-Wing Red State Xtian Merika... while meanwhile, the folks pushing that stuff are all too happy to bitch about naked bodies on HBO, Janet Jackson's Boob, or porn behind the counter at the 7-11.

Their entire agenda is centered around running OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES. If the religious right was just about living their OWN lives and leaving the rest of us alone, there wouldn't BE a religious right.

(Also, bashing far right fundamentalists is NOT THE SAME as bashing "Christianity", and I don't see why we should have to keep making that point, when the same people who say out of once corner of their mouths "the religious right doesn't represent all people of faith" keep going "stop bashing people of faith" when they see the religious right get criticized. :eyes:)

You, yourself, argued not so long ago that "we" should support anti-choice Democrats. You even started a whole thread about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1107202

So, it's okay for YOU to argue that womens' reproductive rights aren't "that" important, and it's okay for Democratic Politicians to say that THEY should be able to control other people's bodies.. That's okay. It's okay for Politician A to say "Woman B, Woman C, Woman D, and Woman E.. Whom I've never met..... I know better than they do when they should remain pregnant, what they should be allowed to do with their uterii, if they should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy that has gone horribly wrong... I know better than they do what they should do with their own bodies." .. not only is it okay for Politician A to say that, but "we" should support him or her (probably him) because, you know, the right of people to control their own lives and bodies isn't that important, and the religious right anti-choice crowd should be allowed to make those decisions for everyone else.

How the FUCK is that not bigotry, but making fun of "modesty" bathing suits or abstinence pledges that don't work is? Wanna answer that one?

The bottom line? People's beliefs and actions aren't automatically immune to criticism or even ridicule just because they are "religious". Sorry.

that insists on trashing religion, and nothing seems to be off limits to it. Except slamming Jews-- nobody wants to be accused of being anti-Semitic and they haven't figured out how to rag on the religion without ragging on the ethnicity. They stay pretty quiet about those black evangelical churches with the great choirs, too. Not sure why they don't attack them like they attack the white fundie churches-- they both share pretty much the same theology.

Best to attack easy targets that you heard of but still don't understand, and get those Attaboys from the peanut gallery for your great with and insight.

the Amish are a sect of Mennonites, which come from an Anabaptist traditon. Aside from their theology, which I don't necessarily agree with, Mennonites are extraordinary people. Within their religion is an ethical system that does not allow them to cheat you in business, commit crimes of fraud and violence, or seek revenge. We can get annoyed at the traffic jams caused by the Amish buggies and laugh at their clothes, but we would all be better off if we looked more closely at how Mennonites live.

Actually, I have no small amount of envy. We have a 90 horse power engine in our vehicle and some of us don't think that is enough horses. Heck, has anyone noticed the horse power of a 4.0 Jeep engine?

Yet, these folk get by quite nicely on ONE horsepower.

I've seen them on vacations and stuff (we don't have that in L.A.!) But they're not the kind of religious people who bug me. The ones who scream at you when you leave a ball game or a concert 'REPENT REPENT!' they're just annoying....or the freeper type Church Lady Xtian.

I was raised a Catholic and still am amazed at how cool a lot of the Catholic clergy is -- just last week there were a couple of priests facing charges for "trespassing" (protesting) at the School of the Americas. I have no problem with people wanting to lead a Christ-like life, but too many self-proclaimed Xtians are like GWB.

to laugh at people, and someone else would say they deserve to be picked on, and someone else would complain about freedom of speech, and who knows what all else. So my solution is to respect everyone's right to believe or love or be whomever or whatever they want, and I'll judge individuals on how they treat other people and not on what group they belong to or don't belong to. And that sometimes means I will disapprove of the liberal I agree with and support the fundamentalist conservative who that same liberal just attacked for their beliefs. I'm more concerned with individuals than labels and with actions than stated ideologies.

Everyone else has to decide their own rules. I can't even figure out how to live my own life, I'm not going to tell anyone else how to live theirs.

Is it OK on DU? As long as no DU rules are broken, yes.

Is it OK to be rude and/or insulting? Yes, but you don't have to like it. Nor is such behavior mandatory.

Is it OK to make fun of religion in general? Absolutely. Any system of belief that can't stand up to ridicule should be questioned even further. Truth can't be insulted into being false, can it? And if it's not truth, then we should be questioning it.

If you are part of a religion that has no basis in fact, you deserve to be made fun of.

If your religion makes you take part in silly rituals and customs, you deserve to be made fun of even more.

If you are part of a religion that actively proselytizes people that aren't interested, you deserve to be made fun of to your face.

If you are part of a religion that discriminates against individuals because of the way they were born, you deserve open ridicule.

If you are part of a religion that tries to force your beliefs onto people that don't agree with them through politics or laws, you deserve outright hostility.

Well said, that about covers the topic for me! Great post! Thank you

Superstitions are best reserved for little children's amusement.

Think critically for yourself.

Who are you going to believe?

Them or your lying eyes?

Blind faith?

Just because the multitudes supposedly believe something doesn't make it any more true, or reality, than the Easter Bunny or Santa are real.

You can believe that!

Try on the following seasonal Zen Koan

First there is a Santa Claus
Then there is no Santa Claus
Then there is

Best post in this thread!

Anthropologists have described religion as beliefs/customs/rituals designed to control the uncontrollable. I think it's worthwhile to consider how this control (of self and others) is expressed. :thumbsup:

criticizing whatever they did is fair game.

but mentioning that is verboten.

But religious people can and do go off on "godless" or agnostic or "non-believers" or whatever....and say the most wretched things, wishing for their death, that they go to hell etc etc that's OK but as soon as you say something like, uh, it's kind of ridiculous to INSIST that anybody you vote for believes Jesus's dead body flew to heaven, OOOOOH THEY'RE PERSECUTING US!

On a one to one basis, if people respect my values I respect theirs. Politically, once people play the "we're 'religious' and therefore superior" thing, they're idiots and yeah I'll make fun of their "beliefs" all I want!

In truth, the "spirit children on your own planet" thing is as stupid as "72 virgins" or whatever "eternal life" promises given by humans, who, IMO, really have no idea what happens after death except what they've been told.

The radical right doesn't have it. Most of us in the religious left have it. Then again, there is another group that is opposed to the religious right but acts like it in at least one way: they atack those who don't conform to their orthodox position. The orthodox position, in this case, is that there is no god and that anyone who deviates from this orthodoxy is absolutely idiotic. Which, of course, is not that much different from the radically conservative nut-cases who believe that anyone who deviates from their view is absolutely idiotic.

What is it in us that is offended when people have a different spiritual view than we do? Why do SOME atheists get offended that people worship a god? Why do SOME Christians get offended that people DON'T? Why do we make fun of Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Moonies, Baptists, Falwellites, the Amish, or ANYONE?!

Spiritual beliefs by definition cannot be proven. It just seems to me to be blasphemous to hate God's creatures because they have another view of God....after all, God created them. And we are ordered not to judge, for that matter. It seems to be contrary to God's creation not to love others, and that includes all of God's creation, not just the minority who agrees with us.

I believe a gospel of respect and love is part and parcel of most religions. It is the perversion of various religions that causes problems....

I was raised to be a worshiper but the truth of the matter is that even as a small child I was thinking, oh right as if there is this invisible being who wants me to "worship" it, and if something did make all of humanity in order to be worshipped, what an ass of a God that would be!

I would never go out of my way to make fun of anybody but when somebody takes it upon themselves to reassure me that a deceased family member is "in heaven now" and "with Jesus" etc etc I'm sorry it's presumptuous, and it happens WAY more one way than the other. Agnostic people are supposed to "respect Christian beliefs" but not the other way round.

Is it really so crazy to admit: I don't know what happens after I die, I only know what I've been told?

It's not like I would go up to anybody with a fish on their car and go, so you really believe you're "saved?" But the "praise Jesus" people think NOTHING of "sharing the good news" etc. with everybody constantly and sometimes they're just annoying!

If someone starts telling you what to believe then you have every right to speak up. They have effectively invited you to speak your mind.

But there are believers that do not wish to push their beliefs on you. All they ask is that you do not push your beliefs (or lack of) on them.

If people are OK with whatever they believe, then perfect! I went to church for 44 years. GWB and the election of 2004 and his much-ballyhooed "Christian support" made me realize that many idiots including Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Bush could not have advanced without "Christian support." So when all these Christians were praying and getting validation for all of the above...who the heck were they talking to? The devil? IMO, they were talking to themselves and calling it prayer. So I quit all that and let me tell you: I feel born again!

I was never comfortable with the crazy homophobic doctrine of the Catholic Church anyhow. And without the weekly envelopes I can donate to the ACLU and DU! It's all good!

Its just I have seen far to many tolerant and compassionate believers get caught in reactions to more dogmatic and intolerant believers actions. I certainly would not want to be judged by the actions of some of histories worst atheists (thinking Lenin etc) and I can imagine believers that treat everyone else with compassion and tolerance don't want to be slopped in with others who believe in different ways.

I actually don't get atheism either, my whole thing is nobody KNOWS. That's just the truth. They know what they've been taught, told, what they've read...we'll all find out I guess. The bottom line is I don't want to ever make anybody feel bad about what they believe, but at the same time, a person who doesn't pretend to know the secrets of the universe doesn't deserve scorn or to be scapegoated either (like we constantly get on FoxNoise, etc.)

What I'm saying is respect is a two way street.

Are you talking about empirical data? What about religious/spiritual experiences?

You say:
"my whole thing is nobody KNOWS. That's just the truth. They know what they've been taught, told, what they've read"

It's true, i know what i've "been taught, told," and "read".

But i also know what i've felt. What i've sensed and seen.


:shrug:


If you have no antenna, you will not pick up signals...

And put through all the Catholic indoctrination and drama, incense and pipe organs and confession the whole nine, I mean, it's a lot of drama & theatrics so I can see people "feeling" or "sensing" stuff that doesn't necessarily exist. They start you out the day you're born!

I believed it for awhile when I was very small, and then for many years or so I just kind of did it as a habit.

Knowing is addressed by the words gnosticism and agnosticism. Belief is addressed by the words theism and atheism. Two different ideas. If you don't believe in god or gods then you are an atheist. Don't worry you don't have to attend the meetings.

Now a strong atheist is someone that says there absolutely is no god. A weak atheist (also known as an implicit atheist) just doesn't happen to believe there are any number of gods.

Not all religions or all religious people make fun of atheism. If one does react to that one. But to lump all religions into your ridicule does not equal what is being done to you. Its a bit like getting hit by one neighbor and hitting all of of your neighbors to get even.

As a rule though, lumping everybody from many different sects or cults might be counter productive. I have a problem with religion in general because of the tendencies of most of them needing blind faith and unquestioning loyalty. This is not a life embracing human trait and often can hurt others not involved with the religion in the long run.

Oops!

The trick is to use tact. Go fig.

I'm sure Mormons, Mennonites and Amish know there's jokes about them, just don't draw any cartoons!:smoke:
Why wouldn't it be OK to make fun of any religion or set of beliefs?

Or any other set of beliefs?

And try to prove yourself better, more tolerant, etc.

The poster did not mean any of that the way you make it out to be. They were just showing how there are people out there selling "modest" clothing. There was nothing "making fun" of the Amish, etc.

We make fun of the freepers. Is that wrong, in your world of tolerance?

to analysis and criticism. But this applies to one's own religion too, whatever it is, and even to the rationale of "I don't think there's any sky deity" known as atheism. As thinking human beings, we would be deficient if we don't examine these in the light of our best judgment, just as we do political or economic or family systems.

Making fun of a religion's adherents is something else. Unwise to do so to their face. On a public board like this, it's a sticky dilemma where to draw the line between legitimate discussion and what feels like an attack to an adherent.

But I do wish people who feel insulted personally by comments about their faith would speak up. NOT to cry "Bigotry!" but to correct erroneous statements put forth as fact by someone else.

And if the relgion has some practices or beliefs that look weird to outsiders, what of it? Just admit it. All belief systems have weirdities. People's humanity trumps a "faith" identity anyhow.

assholes.


Analysis is one thing, derision is another.

Gena Edvalson chose to engage rather than duck when she moved back to her native Salt Lake city from California. "People from outside Utah are shocked when they hear I come form an LDS familY and live in a conservative suburb of Salt Lake. They're even more shocked when they find out I'm a lesbian, that I have a partner who's about to have a kid, and that my father, who is eighty-three years old and very Mormon, lives in the house with us."

On Utah's DOMA amendment: By Edvalson's account, it was a forward loss. Progressives in many red states talk about "losing forward." It'S the notion that you can end up ahead of where you started--even if you lose, because during the fight you pick up allies. "Our job is to build bridges to potential allies," says Gena. "If you don't go near the water, it's hard to build a bridge."

we have to respect their right to have a stupid belief, but under no circumstances must we actually respect the belief itself. and if they are offended, too fucking bad.

"I don't mind it so much when Christians are made fun of. Sometimes it goes overboard and turns into a hate-fest, but if it's good-natured then I don't mind. But when I see insults geared at religious minorities like the ones I listed, I just feel bad. How would a Mormon DUer or lurker feel if he or she read that sort of stuff? "

It's not nice.


-LBJDemocrat

You are basically saying it's ok to ridicule groups you find worthy of ridiculing but it's not ok to ridicule the groups you find unworthy of ridiculing. How does that make sense?

You just made a great argument for intolerance or at least intolerance targetted at group you find unworthy of tolerance...

I am formulating my opinion on this... My sense of humor tends toward the puerile at times and I admit it but I assure you I will never come to the conclusion that it's ok to make fun of certain groups and not others...

I meant that it's not as offensive to insult a majority group as it is to insult a minority. A black comedian making fun of whites is a bit less disturbing than a white comedian making fun of blacks? Is it not?

IMHO, if a person is laying the claim to be more tolerant than the next man he doesn't get to choose which groups he's tolerant of and which groups he isn't...

Tolerance doesn't stop at being tolerant of what you find tolerable...

My two cents for what it's worth...

If people want to believe that humanity began less than 6,000 years ago in a garden with some magic trees and a talking snake, they'd better damn well expect to get laughed at, just like they laughed at the the guys who believed that there was a god in charge of fire, and another in charge of war, and another in charge of love, and so on.

And for you people who DON'T take your holy book all that literally, but pick and choose what's valid and what's not: what kind of hookey, self-delusional kick are YOU on? Pretending the Bible's not full of nonsense and explaining away its ludicrous content as "allegorical" is a pure act of denial. The book was OBVIOUSLY intended to be taken literally. Your desperate need for religion to counter your fear of death doesn't justify a single passage in any "holy" scripture.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"See, I'd rather not come across sounding like a arrogant, self-important, condescending dick in my interactions with other people."

And yet...you are.

And thanks for the analysis, doc, but I'm not sure you're qualified to judge my "issues" based on a two paragraph rant. Not everyone who is annoyed by a concept has a vested emotional interest in it. I don't need a reason to dislike organized religion more than the fact that history is clogged with countless atrocities committed in the name of "God" - whichever god that might be.

You are right in that my post was arrogant. Self-important...I've got too much of a sense of humor to take that seriously, but I'll grant you condescending. And I certaintly can be a dick. However, with all my faults, I'm not going to go kill somebody based on the twisted teaching described in some book written back before they knew the earth was round. And despite my low opinion of religion, I'm not going to say that religious people shouldn't have the right to get married, or raise children, or teach schools, even though it's my PERSONAL belief they shouldn't be doing ANY of those things. I understand the concept of "live and let live". It's the religious people that seem to have a problem with it.

...has a vested emotional interest in it either.

You're post is so full of blind, staggeringly ignorant sweeping generalizations you sound like you would fit right in among those you criticize and generalize as all persons of faith. That's the kind of hypocrisy I'm sick of.

I don't go to church. I don't belong to any religious institution. Yet in this community, it is the non-religious who are the most dogmatic and mean-spirited who regularly say some of the most ignorant and generalizing things in the name of "rational" non-belief. It's not the faithful of this community who act like fucking assholes. I guess that I had hoped that secular people could demonstrate a better propensity to act like grown-ups instead of children. But, no - it seems to be basically the same song, different day.

Which only teaches me that it "religion" isn't the problem. Human beings tend to belittle and berate things they don't understand and tend to become insular and "dogmatic" in their own thinking - part of the natural human impulse to need certainty and be afraid of uncertainty.

In religion, this often manifests itself as a certainty of belief and disdain towards those who question those beliefs. In the secular world, that often manifests itself as certainty of beliefs, and a disdain toward those who question those beliefs.... wow, same thing.

Hey if you can make sweeping generalizations, then I can make sweeping generalizations.

"Hey if you can make sweeping generalizations, then I can make sweeping generalizations."

It's not much of an art form, but you've definitely got it down.

We're actually in total agreement. I'm well aware that not ALL "religious" people blindly follow their faith to the extent that they're willing to kill innocent people, and that many are "tolerant" enough to "allow" gay people to have the same rights as everybody else (thanks for that, by the way, but if it's not too much trouble, could you speak up a little louder? We're having a hard time hearing you over the "fake" christians who are making one hell of a racket in opposition). My problem with religion is less with the people than with the concept itself - with the dogma. You are quite right in that it doesn't take religion to make people mean-spirited, rude, and hateful; all it takes is a sense of superiority. But while my nasty talk is generally bluster (like most people on the internet, I often post things phrased in a way that I would NEVER speak to a person face to face, although that doesn't mean I don't BELIEVE what I post; I'd just be more respectful of a person's feelings in real life. Why I don't hold the internet to the same standard is another post in itself), I believe that the subtext of nearly ALL religion is self-righteousness. By it's very nature, religion TELLS people that they are right and others are wrong. To paraphrase Yoda, superiority leads to exclusion. Exclusion leads to contempt. Contempt leads to hostility. It's just a bad system all the way around.

So, yes, it is unfair of me to condemn everyday, decent religious folks along with my condemnation of religion. If any of them take offense, I'm sorry. Comfort yourselves in the words of the lord:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake./ Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you"

But I'm not sorry for my contempt for religion. You can call it a generalization all you want, but the fact remains that religious concepts are behind some of the most heinous actions ever committed by man. And if you think that still isn't happening, you haven't looked around lately.

Trying to get out from under the load of emotional baggage dumped on children by some religions can be a life long struggle.

Deconversion can be a mentally and emotionally grueling experience from which one never fully recovers.

Theists swim in the ocean of theism in America without ever noticing the water. For the deconverted though every fish bumper sticker and Calvin praying to the cross on the rear window of a truck is a reminder of their own inner struggle to cast off the demons which were implanted in their minds as vulnerable and impressionable children.

In a way it's kind of akin to getting a new car. Before you get the car, you never notice them on the road (unless it's something you've wanted for a long time), however once you start driving the car you notice them everywhere. You have been sensitized to that particular stimulus of seeing the same car you are driving.

One minor example, theists in general never even notice that *every* politician in America ends every speech with "God Bless America", which to the deconverted makes as much sense as "Santa Claus Bless America". It's a jarring experience no matter how often you encounter it, you end up waiting for it with gritted teeth.

The thing which most theists fail to realize about most atheists in America is that the great majority of atheists started off as theists. The atheist usually understands the mindset of the theist far better than does the theist understand the mindset of the atheist for the simple reason that the atheist was more than likely a theist before he became an atheist.

Even though I was raised nominally relgious (One Catholic parent, One Protestant, Church on Holidays and on the occasional odd Sunday, no bibles in the house), I started questioning it from the age of 5. I despised the hypocrisy and the inconsistencies before I even knew what those words meant. Believing has always been a stretch for me.

"The book was OBVIOUSLY intended to be taken literally."

Yes. Faith is a mustard seed. Literally. Of course, how could I not have seen?

"And for you people who DON'T take your holy book all that literally, but pick and choose what's valid and what's not"

You believe it's an either-or proposition? No room for allegory, poetry, or metaphor?

Especially you.

And any religious belief that is hateful, sexist, racist or intolerant. All religions are all those things, to one extant or another.

come on now, if it walks like a duck, etc., etc.

I refuse to patronize businesses operated by "born agains." The difference is that I know the Amish and Mennonites will never try to convert me.

First of all, Mennonites often- not always- dress conservatively but at least in the communities I know of (my kid's paternal Grandparents live about three blocks from a Mennonite college in a Mennonite town) they don't look like they robbed the clothesline outside the Ingalls cabin. Very observant plain people would be making their own clothes, or at the very least not buying them on the internet.

Those sites are set up to cater to very conservative (theologically and yes, generally politically they generally fall somewhere in the Brownback/Tancredo and of the right wing though some will be libertarians in the Ron Paul mold and others will be to-hell-with-them-all isolationists) fundamentalist families, the ones that are typically QF, home churching, homeschooling (not that all homeschoolers are of this sort- hell, my kid's homeschooled, but these are the people who regard private christian schools as "too secular" or a source of bad influences) families where the wife and daughters wear head coverings and don't cut their hair. Dress for the boys in these families will be normal, if a bit on the uptight and white bread side- think khakis and polo shirts.

I know a lot of these families from various Attachment Parenting boards and a few IRL, though I don't live in an area with many of these families, or overly religious sorts of any variety. Many of them are quite nice and must make good friends and neighbors, and I've actually never had an issue with them tying to convert me, though they may regard me as a lost cause. :rofl:

There may be some relatively obscure polygamist off-shoot who wear that stuff, but you'd never see a mainstream Mormon dressing their kids like Laura Ingalls (OK, unless it's Pioneer day and they're in costume). My family is Mormon and we and the people we go to church with all wear contemporary clothes, jeans, etc.

or at least those who are an odd subset of the majority.

Similar comments about ultra-orthodox Jews who wear long coats and fur hats in 80 degree weather in LA or how the theology of the Nation of Islam differs from Islam would be met with at best uncomfortable silence.

Those of us on the left are careful not to step on the toes of the true minorities and those who have been oppressed and persecuted, but odd behavior by parts of the majority are fair game.

Also, there is an unstated perception that some of this concern for modesty among evangelicals is affected--somehow they made it for a hundred years before noticing that no on sold swimsuits that covered the knees and elbows and obscured the shape of the breast, hip, and ass.

As someone from a white Christian family, pointing out that this stuff is funny is no more malicious than making fun of my brother for buying an ugly plaid suit.

Taliban. While I can see that right wing religion has certainly become a powerful force in politics, when the generalizations are too broad and sweeping, they become meaningless.

A lot of times certain groups evolve in the wrong direction because of a particular leader- case example is Jim Jones. There was a documentary on him on public tv a couple of months ago. The group he started had values that a lot of us would have liked- racial equality, living in community, etc. But his personality became paranoid and it came out in his teachings and led to tragedy. I think this explains why certain sects of the Amish do not have hidden problems and others do- there is a lot of intermarriage and there may be personality traits, like harshness, that are widely shared in a certain group. In another group things like sexual abuse are unheard of.

Speaking for myself, I was raised an Associate Reformed Presbyterian or as my best friend calls me, an ARP!! :) I stopped going to church years ago on a regular basis because I became disillusioned with organized religions as a whole. Hypocrisy has crept into so many aspects of religion and it became too much for me. I also dislike that so many churches have become nothing less then a business, especially the super churches around the country.

I tend to worship in my own way and on my own time, never pushing my beliefs on anyone else. My favorite quote is by Thomas Jefferson:

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."

I know we want to demonize Christians because of the fundies who helped put this nightmare pResident in office(along with the Supreme Court and voter fraud), but I believe most Christians are descent, hard working people, who believe in a loving, nurturing God for all people. They are not the crazies that we see in the news or on TV.

I believe this about other religions too. Just because there are Muslim bombers killing others in the name of Allah, doesn't mean all Muslims are crazy bombers. Extremists exist everywhere and in every religion.

I just wish other DUers would try not to let their anger smear religious groups as a whole based on the actions of some.

:applause: You said it much better than I could have. :thumbsup:

I'm a Unitarian.

Do you know what you get when you cross a Unitarian with a Jehovah's Witness?
..Someone who knocks on your door and asks "What do you believe in?"

Have you heard about the Unitarian branch of the Ku Klux Klan?
..They burn a question mark on your lawn.

And then there's the Unitarian firing squad..
..They form a circle.

Of course we do have our own Jihad, here: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

But that's not going to stop me from attacking their beliefs and actions.

Jefferson's quote is great. However, in a letter to John Adams, Jefferson also said, If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it."

And in a letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp he said, Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.

You wouldn't want to encourage a societal acceptance of putting down any group.

Until they (Mormons/ various not job religions) back off. They deserve no quarter. You reap what you sow

Actually, I was thinking of the extreme like hate crimes. "Putting down" was not a good choice of words. But I stand by my "with discretion." I think among family and friends, harmless making fun of is fine. Even evil making fun of some groups is fine when its a group that needs to "back off."

with any person practicing his or her religion in any way they choose.

My problem starts when a particular person or group attempts to foist their religious principles on me and on my life, or negate what beliefs I may (or may not) have.

Both Intolerance and Evangelism are way out of control in this world, and that goes for all such belief systems that claim Primacy over others.



:rant:

There is a propaganda war being waged against me and people like me with tax exempt dollars, to deny me obtaining full civil rights and deny them to others who have already won them. Mormons in particular and other culty Baptists and fundy Catholics . They are all fair game I have no respect for these people or their sects and wish for them, what they wish for me - Oblivion- they are my enemy

It is incredibly ironic that, in achieving such grand success as the "majority" religion of the world, too many of the church leaders have corrupted the messages of the Christ beyond recognition.

I guess this is where the quote about power corrupting comes in, doesn't it?

In the drive to convert the world, to gain political and religious power, to mandate a "one-faith-fits-all" world, some groups have abandoned the principles that Christ lived by, and made the term "christian" an epithet, a term of hate.

That is human corruption and failing, not that of the Christ himself. While I am not a "christian" in the formal sense, I would love to live in a world with more humility, more love, more generosity, more empathy.

We could start by focusing, not on judging others, but on our own inner work to "be" the person we want everyone else to be.

I don't care what path anybody takes to get there, just that we evolve forward into more enlightened beings.

...come from Jews. The best Catholic jokes I have heard
come from ireland and Italy. If a religion has no humor
at all, then it is a sad one indeed, and is most certainly
fair game from the outside.

Big caveat: There are appropriate times to mock a religion, and
times not to. If you are in the presence of people who are extremely
defensive about their faith, leave it alone. If they are prone to
violence (especially some Muslim and Christian sects, e.g.) leave it
be. In short, treat humor mocking religion(s) as you would shoving
a pie in someone's face. There are occasions where it's harmless.
Don't even think about it in situations where it is not.

I don't "respect" irrational thought just because it's branded under Christianity, Islam, Judaism or what have you...

Magical undies? A 6,000 year old Earth? Angels? A "virgin" birth? A dead guy who came back to life to "save" us? --->> all silly and ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. However, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to retain their silly beliefs. They can state their opinions and I can state my opinion that they believe in ridiculous silliness. They can then tell me I'll burn in some fiery pit with horned creatures poking me with pitchforks. And on and on ...