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"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers."

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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 10:42 AM
Original message
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers."
I came across this quote while looking up quotes about democracy on Wikiquote. The full entry in Wikiquote goes like this:

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

Thomas Pynchon (1973) Gravity's Rainbow, Viking Press, p. 251. (Considering Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, the Reichstag Fire, and subsequent March elections, democracy may contain the seeds of its own undoing, and this quotation describes how those events did that.)


When I read the quote, before seeing what it was referring to, I thought "wow, that sums up the Republicans and Rove perfectly".

A half-second later, when I read how it referred to the Reichstag fire and Hitler, I got serious chills.

:scared:
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. Here's one thats always struck me.
People asking why the FBI never changed the names of the 19 hijackers even after several were found to be alive. The answer is obvious. The hijackers were patsies. What difference does it make if the names aren't correct? The only thing that matters is that we believe they did it.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. several of the hijackers are still alive? wtf?
that is some definitely weird news.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. I hope you're the last one
to whom it comes as a surprise, because if DUers don't know about things like these, what about the rest?

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1558669.stm

14 of 19 alleged hijackers entered the US before official entrance date
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x76270

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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. the current word for that is "reframing"
As studied by Professor Lakoff in the last several years.

Here's a big example: it is Democrats in Congress who are blamed for Republican policies and failures. There are more attacks on Dems than on Republicans.

That's reframing. It has allowed Republicans to skate. The seed was planted by Rove, propagated by Greens who wish to divide Dems, and nurtured by Democrats who attack the Democrats in Congress.
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Mrs. Ted Nancy Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I have a theory
I don't know if this has been discussed or not. If so, sorry for the dupe.

Here goes: For a lack of a better term, I call this the 'political abused child syndrome'.
It is my understanding that in an abusive family where one parent abuses a child and the other parent does little or
nothing to stop it, the child will curry favor with the abusive parent in order for the
abuse to stop. The child will then distance her/himself from the 'enabling' parent.
The child holds the enabling parent with contempt.

Here comes the political part: the abusive parents are the republicans (the abuses by the republicans are
many to count) and the enabling parents are the democrats i.e. they have not done enough
to fight for the majority of Americans to stop the abusive republicans.

Whether they realize it or not, the media frame the issues this way- why don't the
spineless democrats stand up to the republican bullies? I think this mindset is
transferred to the public and it angers voters. This theory can be transferred to
other political situations as well.

It's not a perfect theory, but I think it has some merit.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. That strikes me as analogous to blaming specifically
the democracies among the wartime allies, without a thorough analysis of evidence, for negligently permitting the systematic killing by axis military powers of civilians in occupied Europe for "illegal ancestry" or "illegal sexual orientation."

Little or nothing is said about the USSR's alleged role in this alleged negligence, even though the USSR a short time later became undisputed master of the section of Eastern Europe where much of the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians took place.

Apparently the personal responsibility of those who actually planned or carried out the killings is considered too obvious to merit as much mention or emphasis as, in other discussions, is bestowed on the praiseworthy role of the Prophet Muhammad in allegedly inspiring the invention of zero and the development of algebra.

Here's a big example: it is Democrats in Congress who are blamed for Republican policies and failures. There are more attacks on Dems than on Republicans.

That's reframing.

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. If They OWN the Media, They Can Dictate All the Questions That Are Asked


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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. What prevents millions of blue-collar workers from investing
in media companies?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. unions could own newspapers and media outlets
Gee, the AFL-CIO could have its own cable network that could address the interests and needs of working families. Plenty of ad revenue there!

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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Who said anything about unions?
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 12:32 PM by Boojatta
Don't individuals and families save for retirement other than by accumulating cash in a bank account?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. They Don't Have That Kind of Money
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. If ten million people have a hundred dollars each to invest
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 01:04 PM by Boojatta
towards retirement and if they all agree upon one particular media giant to invest in, then they could collectively own a billion dollars worth of shares in that one particular media giant.

Of course, if they started buying all at the same time, then they would provoke other investors to buy and then the stock would get more expensive.

However, over a period of a number of years, they could buy when the stock price is depressed. Of course, it does seem a bit silly to spend $10 on stock one year, none another year, $15 another year, $25 another year, and so on. In fact, one would have to invest with other people if one wished to personally spend, in one transaction, less than the cost of a single share of stock.

To do that, one would need to form some kind of formal or informal networks with others. However, that would involve personal responsibility and not simply accepting the already existing network that is a union and not simply accepting the decision of a union boss who after all knows better than you and needs to patronizingly make all decisions for you.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. $1B is a Drop in the Bucket
NBC is owned by GE, which has a market cap of $395 Billion
ABC is owned by Disney, with a market cap of $65 Billion
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Did George Soros start investing with a billion dollars in cash...
Edited on Tue Aug-21-07 02:33 PM by Boojatta
or was he able to get started with significantly less than one drop in the bucket?
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The market cap of GE seems like an odd number to draw attention to.
If GE is the owner of NBC and you are concerned about the expensiveness of NBC, then shouldn't you be telling me the market cap of NBC before it was a subsidiary of another corporation?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. How Much Would You Have to Offer GE to Get Them to Sell NBC?
I think it would be a lot more than they paid for it.

The power that gives them is of enormous value.
They would not sell to left-of-center interests for any price.

Just the ability to keep a very unpopular war going is worth
far more to them than they paid for the network.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Do you think you are entitled to buy something the owner doesn't want to sell?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's why I listed the Entire Market Cap of GE
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Okay, that makes sense, but usually when you cannot buy
something you don't try to buy the owner. You find something else to buy.

Of course, there are exceptions. I heard of a business owner who couldn't get insurance. So he bought the insurance company.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. So What to Buy Then?
You'll almost certainly have to buy Disney to get ABC. A bargain at $65 billion.
CBS/Viacom is only $22 billion, but most of the stock is held by one person.
Of course Murdoch owns Fox outright, and you KNOW he's not selling.

So we're pretty much out of the picture as far as TV goes, for the forseeable future.

All we really have is the Internet, and it seems like we're preaching to the choir here.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Cable TV allows for more channels beyond what was possible in 1950.
Buy the creative talents of individual writers, directors, technicians, managers, etc. and you can attract niche audiences who are not currently being served.

Investing is not like buying lottery tickets. Investors are not restricted to simply buying and selling existing stocks and bonds. There is such thing as venture capital: investing in ventures that are not currently listed on the stock exchange.

Even corporate raiders -- not known for nurturing new ventures -- went beyond mere exchange of stock certificates. They sold off some sections of companies and liquidated other sections. So something real was happening besides exchange of cash for shares or exchange of shares for other shares.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. True, But The Cable Companies Decide What Channels Get On Their Cables
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tchunter Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. oh, i thought that this was going to be a Pynchon thread
best author i have had the pleasure to read. The other "proverbs for paranoids" are equally as true. Gravity's Rainbow is full of juicy little quotations like this one.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. The "Terrorist Surveillance Program" comes to mind.
Senators and Representatives ask about this thing not knowing that, by definition, it only encompasses activities which are arguably conducted within the law.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-21-07 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yup. "Is being gay biology or a choice" is prime among them.
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