the welcome return of science, logic and rational thought.

Between running around from one place to another, working as I must, I heard the radio coverage of the landing of the space shuttle.

Face it, you were probably as worried as I - that gash, through two insulating tiles, all the way to the aluminum skim of Mr. Truck (which would lead to its interior. The temps reached during a landing exceed 3000 degrees, and aluminum melts at 900. But what did the rocket scientist do? they analyzed it rationally, with experimental data and training, and education and experience.
And they said, don't do a fix, that would probably make it worse. Land it as is. Hearing that they landed safely was like music to my ears.

No amount of prayers saved that shuttle. No amount of donations to church,routine tithing or hair-raising preaching saved that shuttle. ENGINEERING and RATIONAL THOUGHT, the antithesis of religious beliefs, and the logical enemy to theistic organizations and laws, are what worked.

There are other signs of a return to rational behavior. People turned out to exaggerate (significantly) the amount of church-going that they do. Sermon attendance actually has fallen since 2004 AND the actual numbers of the faithful flocks flocking to faith-based meetings are significantly lower than the media (and many religious organizations) had estimated earlier. There are several explanation of why people lied about going to church, as often or as long as they did. Fear of being stigmatized is one thing; seeing hugely exaggerated numbers of their neighbors claiming they attend, another. I think that the presidency of W. had a lot to do with it, too. If our feckless leader was so religious, it would be un american to admit that any person was somehow less involved in religious activities, faiths or church going.

Well, Karl Rove and George Bush have done what I thought (at least 6 yrs ago) was impossible. Not only did George and Karl fuck over the future of the Republican party like a overused sheep at a really bad stag party, not only did the futures of so many promising little Regent U law grads crumble like stale bread, but they managed to do something else. They showed the American people that faith based initiatives don't work, that relying on religion to do federal governmental work is suicidal, and that religion ain't all cracked up to its promotional ad campaigns. Of course, they had help. Falwell, Ted Haggard, the fake journalist gay porno male whore, Mark Foley and his many family values hypocrites, yes, they had a lot of help.

The difference between prayer and science was brought to perspective today, although the lesson may take some time, even years, to become clear to everyone. Science works; prayer does not. Not only did the shuttle land safely, but the Hurricane Dean deaths in the Yucatan were minimal because of science. Warnings, computer studies, advance notice and rational steps to protect life and limb worked again. Not one prayer to make that storm center disappear (and my local channel 26 had a bible beater praying for god to remove that storm from our world - I kid you not) Guess whose system worked better?

Of course, our modern MSM remains clueless and always comes late to the party. They missed out on the growth of the faith based campaign orchestrated by Karl, they missed how Karl fucked them all, they missed and are missing how that surge of faith based initiatives has faded and will continue to wane for many years to come. at the same time, people were were on the cusp, those who could take or leave religion (the largest group of Americans, despite how religious leaders love to pump their numbers) has grown and has grown more vocal. And lastly, those agnostics, atheists, deists, unitarians, and believers in the human spirit, in discovery, creativity, science, math, education, and the incredible beauty of the unfettered mind are rejoicing and standing up. For everyone.

Is the religious right dead as an effective, strong and long-lasting political movement?

... for their next stupid fix.

I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm not sure why you are turning it into one.

Science and all that comes with it and because of it is immensely valuable. But it can remain so even while still finding value and comfort in religious faith. The two are compliments to each other, while also being separate from each other. But the existence or benefit of one does not undermine the existence of benefit of the other. Only warped extremist fundy mentality can forsake one for the other (as we've seen at times from some on the religious right) but that is not representative of religion and science in general.

try to maintain some self-importance in the face of total failure and irrelevancy? The more we learn, the more questions we raise, but as a result, the better our lives become. Does prayer do the same thing?

How did prayer help Katrina victims? How does prayer protect our poor boys and girls stuck in under-armored tin cans, as they venture through the ghettos of Baghdad, targets one and all? How does prayer help the poor who spend their last pennies on lottery ticekts, cigarettes and cheap booze?

In each and every case where religion and prayer fail, there is a stock answer - you didn't have enough faith, or your prayers were not strong enough.
Damn, talk about a win win situation for the sect. Total mind control, spiced with a heavy seasoning of guilt and recriminations. AND best of all, no accountability. Prayers Don't Work. Period. Yet, preachers and religious leaders keep blaming the prayer-offerer as the culprit when the prayer fails to achieve any success. God, what a great system. Imagine if they could profit from it. Oh wait. No taxes, tithing, donations, legacies, AND all they have to do is tell their flock that they are fucking up and to pray harder and give more $$.

The main purpose of prayer is to provide comfort, strength, hope and guidance. To those with deep faith and spirituality, such things are invaluable. I'd wager there were multitudes of people suffering from Katrina that found great comfort in prayer and would've been far more fragile without it. I'd also wager that many many troops find great comfort in their prayer as well. You need to be a bit more objective and recognize that just because prayer is worthless to you, that your feelings don't translate universally onto everyone else. Others find it quite valuable and comforting.

You also throw out a complete falsehood in some seemingly desperate attempt to perpetuate your argument, that "in each and every case where religion and prayer fail, there is a stock answer of not having enough faith, prayers not being strong enough, etc etc". What a load of malarkey that is. You're talking about exceptions there, not the rule.

You say prayers don't work. That's pretty arrogant and narrow minded for you to say. Once again, you have failed to be objective. Prayers don't work for you. That doesn't mean they don't work for others. Prayers help people in all sorts of ways and it is amazingly naive of you to think for a second that just because you don't have faith and don't pray, that prayers don't help others. You have much to learn on this subject it seems.

You're an atheist I guess. Well yay for you. But your personal beliefs are yours alone, and don't dictate the reality of others. They only dictate your reality. You can be an atheist and yet still not have to attack others for what they choose to believe.

au contraire, the religious groups have been attacking our secular nation. They have attacked our skule kids and filled them with creationist crap and intel design insanity.
meditation provides comfort, strength, hope and guidance, and some prayer is nothing but a form of meditation. But, when you see a bunch of SMU supporters kneeling during a bizniz meeting, and asking their lord for a victory that saturday, well, deep faith and spirituality go out the window.

The abused, ignored, and suffering folks from NOLA probably did gain some relief from prayer. But they did not get:
a) housing
b) repairs
c) water
d) electricity
e) food
f) medicine
g) an area they can call home.

Oh boy, how valuable and comforting that must be. In the proper perspective.

Faith like that offers those demanding it from others the perfect cover and excuse for HUMAN mistakes and fuck-ups. Anf prayers do nothing to fix those fuck-ups.
ask any displaced person which was more warmly received, a blessing from their preacher, or bottled water and good food. What a load of malarkey, indeed.


actually, prayers do NOT work. There was an elegant double blind study in which a group of patients receiving surgical treatment were either prayed for or not. And half of each group was either told or not about the prayers. THose who knew they were getting prayers from a group of unknown believers faired the worst, with most complications, most post-op infections, and the worst outcomes.

Clinical proof that prayer did not work, and you continue to press the stupid idea that it was a personal failing that prayers don't work for someone.

got to love it. You proved my point perfectly - anyone who tells the truth is a failure - how truly christian of you. In my sense of that word

Your post above is so misguided I'm not even sure it deserves a reply. Much of it has already been addressed in my above reply and it would probably do you good to reread it.

You again state that prayers don't work, even though I stated how naive and narrow minded it is to declare such a thing. Prayers work every single day, for millions of people. I'm amazed that you think just because you can't appreciate prayer or understand its value, that means that it doesn't do anything for anyone else either.

Furthermore, by quoting that RIDICULOUS study as substance to your argument, only served to prove to me how ridiculous your argument actually is. Clinical proof? You really can't recognize how amazingly ridiculous that study was, and how pathetic it would be to use it towards any serious discussion? :rofl:

I can see that it will be a monumental waste of time to continue discussing this issue with you, since you've shown quite readily that you are not ready or capable of understanding it. So before I go, I just want to leave you with the following:

Just because you're an atheist, that doesn't mean that you have to harbor such ill will and resentment towards those who do not feel the same as you do.

which was and remains the main purpose.

Give me one, concrete, repeatable, measurable, and determinable event in which PRAYER had any impact. ANY impact. If you do, I will gladly give your argument much more consideration. Until you can and you do, I wish you well. Truly. Wilfull ignorance is can be a dangerous thing.

"The main purpose of prayer is to provide comfort, strength, hope and guidance. To those with deep faith and spirituality, such things are invaluable."

That's fine, and believers who acknowledge that have a lot in common with non-religious people, who are also seeking comfort, hope, strength, and guidance.

But most of the believers I talk to think that at least one major purpose of prayer is to get their god to intervene on their behalf. If that's what someone wants out of prayer, they're not likely to get it since the evidence for interventionist gods is scanty at best.

I'm pretty sure the shuttle program existance is based purely on pure faith based believe in man space missions to near Earth orbit are useful science experiments despite the total lack of rational thought and science that occurs.

good one.

At LEAST one engineer (scientist,whatever) @ Mission Control said (maybe under their breath) God , I hope we're right!