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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:04 PM
Original message
WaPo: "Democrats Refocus Message on Iraq After Military Gains" (Why read DU, now?)
Read this. They've either given up, or this article is a masterpiece of spin. And I'm left wanting to puke on my keyboard.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082102025.html

Democratic leaders in Congress had planned to use August recess to raise the heat on Republicans to break with President Bush on the Iraq war. Instead, Democrats have been forced to recalibrate their own message in the face of recent positive signs on the security front, increasingly focusing their criticisms on what those military gains have not achieved: reconciliation among Iraq's diverse political factions.

And now the Democrats, along with wavering Republicans, will face an advertising blitz from Bush supporters determined to remain on offense. A new pressure group, Freedom's Watch, will unveil a month-long, $15 million television, radio and grass-roots campaign today designed to shore up support for Bush's policies before the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, lays out a White House assessment of the war's progress. The first installment of Petraeus's testimony is scheduled to be delivered before the House Armed Services and Foreign Affairs committees on the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, a fact both the administration and congressional Democrats say is simply a scheduling coincidence.

The leading Democratic candidates for the White House have fallen into line with the campaign to praise military progress while excoriating Iraqi leaders for their unwillingness to reach political accommodations that could end the sectarian warfare.

(snip)

House Democratic Caucus Chairman Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) made a round of calls yesterday to freshman Democrats, some of whom recently returned from trips to Iraq and made news with their positive comments on military progress. "I'm not finding any wobbliness on the war -- at all," Emanuel said.


Okay, I've had it. After making calls, emailing, and talking friends into doing the same, this is what we get.

Now what? A "goodbye cruel world post?" What?

What the hell do we do with this?
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. (I don't think they're Democrats. . . . . . shhhhh). . . . .n/t
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who? Rahm? Hillary? nt
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Petraeus will give "his" (the White House) report and the DLC Democrats will capitulate...again
making it impossible to put together a majority in Congress for ending the war.

And then, even though only 25% of the Democrats fold, people on this board will cast a wide net and blame the whole party for it.

Just watch.

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I smell the stench of AIPAC
I'm just saying
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Good nose.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. I think they're ultimately bent on the destruction of this nation. nt.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. cat, it looks like the incrowd in DC have made up their minds about this
and they are all using each other as cover

Here is a thread on what NPR had on it yesterday. This is like watching and knowing it is happening, a psy-ops campaign. By this weekend it will be a foregone conclusion and anyone who doesn't follow or raises a stink is a nutjob and cut out of power.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1638673&mesg_id=1638673

I could not BELIEVE this when I heard it yesterday afternoon

Guy Raz used the Pollack O'Hanlon piece, that he states was pushed by the Bush administration, as support for this conclusion and he sites the FACT that that op-ed is going to be used as the main basis inside the Beltway to support (not stop) the surge. Then they had on Rep. Baird from Washington who has changed his position.

This is one horribly twisted and spun report about the pre-emptive spin on the Patreus report and insider CYA
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13...


The point of this message is to pre-empt any serious political opposition to the idea of extending the troop surge, which the White House and the Pentagon hope to maintain through next spring.

The approach has also taken some of the pressure off of Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, by giving Congress a "sneak peek" at what he's expected to say.


O'Hanlon and the rest of the group were briefed by top military and political officials. They were also given access to classified information.

O'Hanlon came back from his trip and penned an article with another colleague, Ken Pollack, for The New York Times. The article cited security progress in Iraq and called on Congress to back an extension of the troop surge.


Conservatives immediately embraced the article.

The White House distributed the piece via e-mail under the heading "a potentially climate-changing article."

The week that the article appeared, it was cited in four separate stories by the conservative magazine The Weekly Standard; the publication referred to O'Hanlon and Pollack as "left-wing critics of the war." That's not entirely accurate. Both O'Hanlon and Pollack backed the invasion of Iraq and backed the troop surge. They have criticized the way the administration has handled the war, but it barely differs from the criticism served up by The Weekly Standard.

Still, O'Hanlon and Pollack's point of view seems to be catching on more broadly. Recent polls suggest the number of Americans willing to see the troop surge extend through next April is growing. <---WHAT? Where?

And according to one source close to the general's staff, "Petraeus doesn't have to sell Congress on an extension. … He's already sealed the deal." <--- declaring victory and any naysayers clearly want us to LOSE (we already have)

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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I feel bad for the soldiers who published their
opposing view in the NYT. No one has their back it seems. I am disgusted.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. And Hillary is a very big part of that "in crowd."
Don't you remember what Bill Clinton said? "I will die for Israel." It gave me the creeps.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. you bet she is and i am damn sick of having the hillary pushed down my throat..i am sick to death
of it./.and i am not taking this shit any longer!!


she is them... Hillary = neo con left!

fly
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. But, they don't believe in "climate change." n/t
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. well, if they give into bu$h* i'll be joining Libertarian Underground
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. They're worse. I've been there.
They're the most loony of them all.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I would join liberation underground.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. What is sad - is that I am not shocked or surprised
I am though, disappointed.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wait and see what unfolds
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You're right. That's all the Web will be good for, now.
Forget organizing and making our voices heard. We obviously don't matter anymore.
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. So long as people are dying, security should remain the focus. n/t
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Care to elaborate? nt
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. Positive signs that Rahm & Co are kissing Bushie ass. Iraq is as bad as ever.
So is Rahm, who did his damndest to recruit pro-war candidates for the House.
Be kind to the horse he rode in on.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here, read Glenn Greenwald's piece in Salon today:
Wednesday August 22, 2007 09:34 EST
Carl Levin reveals the Democrats' Iraq "strategy"

Carl Levin, probably the most influential Senate Democrat on Iraq policy, just returned from a "visit to Iraq." In a joint statement with GOP Sen. John Warner, he pronounced that "the military aspects of President Bush's new strategy in Iraq, as articulated by him on January 10, 2007, appear to have produced some credible and positive results."
While expressing various "concerns," they particularly hailed "the continuing improvement in the ability and willingness of the Iraqi Army to conduct combat operations against the insurgents." Predictably, war supporters on Fox News and elsewhere wasted no time in hauling out the "even-Carl-Levin-admits-we're-winning" claim.
The "trip to Iraq" which Levin and Warner took was so short and so controlled that it makes the Pollack/O'Hanlon jaunt look like a full tour of combat duty. "We completed a very productive two-day visit to Iraq," they said, adding that they spent the whole "two days" meeting with U.S. military commanders (including Gen. Petraeus) at "forward operating bases," as well as with Iraqi politicians. And, you see, they "came to Iraq to assess the progress being achieved by 'the surge.'"
All of that is fine; Senators ought to meet with U.S. military commanders and hear their war reports. And melodramatic, highly controlled trips to war zones is how politicians (and think tank "scholars") behave. That's not new.
But Levin has not -- as his joint statement claimed and media reports recite -- "seen indications that the surge of additional brigades to Baghdad and its immediate vicinity and the revitalized counter-insurgency strategy being employed have produced tangible results in making several areas of the capital more secure." It is patently inaccurate to claim that Levin "saw" anything meaningful. Rather, he simply heard claims voiced by U.S. military officials about U.S. military progress and Iraqi troop improvement -- claims the U.S. military has been making for four straight years -- and he is now repeating those claims.
The idea that Iraq military forces are improving is, by all accounts, absurd. As Nir Rosen pointed out in an in an excellent interview with the always superb Amy Goodman, "the Mahdi Army basically controls the police and the Iraqi army," and the "army" generally is little more than a sectarian force in most parts of the country. Even a fan of military sources like Joe Klein recognizes this:
I do think were taken a bit by the military on the question of progress in the Iraqi Army and police forces. I tend to agree with the non-coms who wrote the op-ed in the Sunday New York Times, and also with some of the combat officers I spoke with in Iraq-- that the Iraqis are quite undependable, in many cases little more than militia members in camouflage.
Levin is willingly serving as an uncritical spokesman here for the most dubious and sunny claims of the U.S. military regarding our great progress. But he knows that, and it is almost surely deliberate. The important point here is that Levin's statements signal the clear strategy Senate Democrats are embracing in the preparation for Gen. Petraeus' imminent visit.
Senate Democrats largely will not challenge, but rather will embrace and celebrate, the notion that The Surge Is Working and that we are making "military progress," whatever that might mean this month. To "oppose the war," they instead will follow the strategy Hillary Clinton has adopted this year -- namely, blaming the Iraqis for failing to take advantage of the great opportunities we are creating for them. Levin's demand that Prime Minister Maliki be replaced is designed to accomplish exactly that. Democrats are afraid to challenge the U.S. military's claims that we are Winning, and are even afraid to oppose the Surge, so instead, they will take the safest course -- heaping the blame on the Iraqi government and demanding that they improve.
As a matter of substance, Levin's call for the Prime Minister to be replaced is, of course, completely nonsensical. As Hilzoy pointed out, the political failures in Iraq are not due to Maliki's failures and replacing him will therefore achieve nothing. Beyond that, as Rosen explained in the Democracy Now interview:
The Iraqi government doesn't matter. It has no power. And it doesn't matter who you put in there. He's not going to have any power. Baghdad doesn't really matter, except for Baghdad. Baghdad used to be the most important city in Iraq, and whoever controlled Baghdad controlled Iraq. These days, you have a collection of city states: Mosul, Basra, Baghdad, Kirkuk, Irbil, Sulaymaniyah. Each one is virtually independent, and they have their own warlords and their own militias. And what happens in Baghdad makes no difference. So that's the first point.
Iraq is so disintegrated, so ethnically cleansed, so broken that, as Rosen points out, it does not really exist as an entity any longer:
Iraq has been changed irrevocably, I think. I don't think Iraq even -- you can say it exists anymore. There has been a very effective, systematic ethnic cleansing of Sunnis from Baghdad, of Shias --from areas that are now mostly Shia. . . . And Baghdad is now firmly in the hands of sectarian Shiite militias, and they're never going to let it go.
Rosen reports that the number of externally displaced Iraqis is now close to 3 million -- most of them Sunnis, representing a sizable portion of the Iraqi Sunni population which, in turn, further ensures Shiite sectarian militia control of most of the country. Always obscured by the exciting debate over whether we are "winning" is what happens if we "win" -- the installation of an Iran-and-Syria-friendly Shiite "government" surrounded by an ethnically divided country armed and ruled by sectarian militias loyal to a whole variety of Middle East actors. In light of all of that, Sen. Levin's claim of "military progress" is just incoherent.
By endorsing the idea that the Surge is Working, Senate Democrats are ensuring that the Congress will never force George Bush to withdraw from Iraq. That is the only meaningful result of Levin's remarks. It gives cover to Congressional Republicans to stay with the President, ensures that many "Blue Dog" Democrats will do the same, and almost certainly bolsters Republican support and weakens independent and some Democratic opposition to the war (after all, if "even Democrats" agree the Surge is Working, then we obviously ought to give the Iraqis more time, etc. etc.).
That the Congress will do nothing -- before September, during September and after September -- to force Bush out of Iraq is not news to anyone other than our Beltway elites. The only certain political fact has long been that we will be occupying Iraq at roughly the same levels of troop strength throughout the Bush presidency. But the fact that Congressional Democrats actually seem to weaken by the day -- they actually seem, as a group, to be turning gradually more pro-war -- is extremely alarming for an entirely different reason.
An article by former CIA officer Robert Baer in this week's Time Magazine -- headlined: "A Prelude to an Attack on Iran" -- casts such an attack as virtually inevitable prior to the end of the Bush presidency, and likely much sooner than that:
Reports that the Bush Administration will put Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps on the terrorism list can be read in one of two ways: it's either more bluster or, ominously, a wind-up for a strike on Iran. Officials I talk to in Washington vote for a hit on the IRGC, maybe within the next six months. . . .
Strengthening the Administration's case for a strike on Iran, there's a belief among neo-cons that the IRGC is the one obstacle to democratic and a friendly Iran. They believe that if we were to get rid of the IRGC, the clerics would fall, and our thirty-years war with Iran over. It's another neo-con delusion, but still it informs White House thinking.
And what do we do if just the opposite happens -- a strike on Iran unifies Iranians behind the regime? An Administration official told me it's not even a consideration. "IRGC IED's are a casus belli for this administration. There will be an attack on Iran."
In a recent column, Dan Froomkin notes that "a quite significant majority of experts who do know a lot about the region believe that an attack in Iran would be a disaster for America and the world," and then proceeds to list just some of those experts whom the media should interview. While true, it really does not matter.
The administration's willingness to attack Iran does not depend upon public opinion or even Congressional authorization. They are going to argue that they already have legal authorization to do so because the attack is part of the war in Iraq ("IRGC IED's are a casus belli for this administration") and they will launch an attack, by air and/or with the use of aircraft carriers, when they decide they want to.
That is why the complete lack of urgency on the part of Congressional Democrats -- their aiding and abetting of this P.R. campaign about how much military progress we are making in Iraq and how Iraqi forces are improving and how we need more time -- is so dangerous, so alarming. The tragedy we have unleashed in Iraq is a fait accompli.
But there is much more destruction that can come from our staying, particularly its use as a pretext for what many war advocates have wanted all along -- the use of our military force to bomb Iran and/or achieve regime change. Given our militarily weakened state, the latter goal seems virtually impossible. And, ironically as always, a bombing campaign against Iran would do more to strengthen that government than anything else we could do. But Iran is the Evil Enemy. And Enemies must be attacked and bombed and harmed. The people who think that way are very much still in control, beginning with the Oval Office, and it is very difficult to see how that outcome will be averted. Certainly the likes of Carl Levin aren't going to stop it.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Now I really want to run away, screaming.
Why? Why are the Dems going along with this?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Honestly I don't know
I think there are many reasons,

They are habitual cowards and lack discipline as a party - too easy. True but easy.

Ultimately they serve the same masters. True, but overly vague.

They never questioned the basis of the invasion to start with. (Where is the investigation into the LIES told to start this war? Where are the Democrats pointing out the abuse of treaty law involved?) Having never questioned the premises of the war, they get dragged willy-nilly to the conclusion Bush demands: that the war be fought to "successful" end.

They are idiots and do not even try to escape the victory-defeat framing Bush and the warpigs put on our involvement in Iraq. Every six months we have a NEW ENEMY to defeat in Iraq. Funny isn't it? Because the Democrats accept the victory-defeat yoke placed on them, they are unable to tell an alternate version of Iraq in which we overturned the social order there, then played one side against the other, cynically and with genocidal consequences.

The American people want out of Iraq, but they are reluctant to admit blame for having done something calamitous and CRIMINAL. Telling an alternate story about what has happened in Iraq and what we are still doing there could bring the Democrats in range of the accusation of Sayin' bad stuff 'bout AMURIKA!!!

Which brings us back to doe - the Democrats are a party of cowards, who, to avoid having to stand up for what they believe in, try not to believe in anything.
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followthemoney Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
40. Let me say it one more time.
I heard Glenn on Democracy Now! using the word “baffled” concerning the capitulation of the Democratic Party in submission to the will of Bush. Glenn is not alone in using this word or others that convey the same meaning. The discussion of Democratic ineffectiveness usually tails off at this point of bafflement rather than leading to an examination of the commonly held assumptions that lead to and terminate the progression of logic in bafflement.

One means of becoming baffled is to see events unfold in ways logically contrary to one’s operating assumptions. A common assumption is that the Democratic Party actually wants to win and will always see its own interests furthered by winning. Another assumption is that the Democratic Party represents broader middle class interests despite being composed of upper class powerful people, whether they become members of this class before or during their terms of office.

Information is scarce, or not widely disseminated, about the motivations for the Democratic alignment with Bush. While not knowing what Democratic motivations are, new assumptions can be made that allow events to unfold as they have without being baffled.

For example, assume that the common class of the dominant factions of both the Democratic and the Republican parties are of the same dominant social and economic classes and are united in their shared class interests.

Assume that the 9 million unregistered black voters who will vote 90% Democratic, and will guarantee Democratic wins, are not wanted in the Democratic Party because they will further disrupt the party’s class purity and unity, and move the party to the left, contrary to the advice of political consultants. The blacks, the left, and those opposed to illegal wars and violations of domestic and international law make up an undesired electorate and undesired constituents of an enlarged and winning Democratic Party.

Assume that the polity not in agreement with the Democratic Party has no where to go and are effectively owned by that party due to a greater disagreement with the Republican Party. Assume that no concessions need to be made to these “misfits” to capture their votes and they can be effectively ignored.

Assume that the Democratic Party will work to disenfranchise any third party that these undesirables may form or join with far more vigor than they will bring to the containment of the Republican party monarchical aspirations.

Banish bafflement by recognizing the changes in the Democratic Party and updating operating assumptions on how they will behave. Don’t be surprised. I’m not.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. This is making me sicker....sometimes I feel like I've never been
a Democrat because what I'm hearing out of Dems isn't what I am a Democrat for.....I hope this makes sense; I have a cold and big ol' bad headache.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. The question is how did we get here?
I knew when I heard "impeachment is off the table", it was a bad sign, a foreboding. This is a unified government under current US policy. This policy is dark.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. IMHO all the dems have to say is there is NO POLITICAL PROGRESS....game over
DEFUND THE WAR
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. are you saying it's DU dogma that no successes in Iraq are possible at all?
if so, you're playing into the hands of the right wing and articles such as the above.

In fact, it has never been the position of the democrats, as far as I can tell, that the surge would yield absolutely no results, even while they opposed it.

And yet, that's the way it has been characterized in the press.

We should be in the reality-based community. If democratic congresspeople go to Iraq and find a certain result, they should report it. And they should continue to work for troop withdrawal, which they're doing.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. My point is that the Dems are buying the frame...again!
And now they've painted themselves into a corner. They can't possibly get a withdrawl bill passed out of committee now.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. you're the one buying the frame.
the frame is that the opposition to the surge, and the calls for withdrawal, are totally dependent on no successes whatsoever in Iraq.

Of course this is not true, it can't be. When the surge was proposed, no one knew what the results would be. One thing that was almost certain is that adding 25,000 troops is going to do something and to argue that it wouldn't would be unreasonable. And to my knowledge, no one did argue that.

And yet they opposed the surge, and are continuing to call for withdrawal of troops.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I thought the frame was that Dems had bought into the surge.
You're saying that this is basically a frame within a frame: The expectations of the Dems (total failure of the surge) has caused a collapse of will and an endorsement of the surge? Is that it?
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. yeah, that sounds right
that's the frame I'm referring to.

What's the frame you're referring to?

(this is getting confusing)
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Well, then they got me.
At least I have DU to sort all this out! That'll teach me to read quotes in an article at face value.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Oh, hell, I knew what the results would be.
We'd kill a lot more of them. They'd kill a few more of us. In the end result, we WILL leave Iraq, and Iraqis will decided on a government, or not, and continue to kill each other, or not, and WE will have no fucking say in it.

Just like Vietnam. Pulling out five years earlier would have made no difference in the end result, execpt that it would have saved 25,000 American and 750,000 Vietnamese lives.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. the democrats are essentially calling for withdrawal now
as I understand it.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I don't consider withdrawal in 8 - 15 months to be "now".
We should, and could, be out by December. As there is nothing to gain by remaining, I don't see why we shouldn't leave ASAP.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
49. Whoser frame is that, Enrique?
Edited on Wed Aug-22-07 07:07 PM by bvar22
The Surge Opposition was NOT that there would be NO success.
The Surge Opposition was that it would be like "Whack-A-Mole". (sound familiar?)
Everyone agreed that there would be a drop in violence in local areas of heavy troop concentration, but that this effect would be temporary, and have no REAL effect on the overall state in Iraq. The Iraqi Opposition would simple move to areas that are less protected.
THAT is EXACTLY what has happened in Iraq!
Violence has EXPLODED (literally) in the previously peaceful Northern provinces.

The Democrats should NOT be claiming Military Success, but should be pointing out that this has been their position all along. Nothing Accomplished.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Not unless you believe in the goals of an illegal occupation
How would you define "success" in this area?
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. a limited success might be a decrease in violence in a particular area
but the surge would still be an overall failure by its own goals of leading to political progress, and troops should still be withdrawn, which is exactly the same position today as it was when the surge was originally proposed.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. So why is it at all helpful to hedge our rhetoric on the war
Once again, it makes the democrats look weak.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I don't think the key to ending the war is being preoccupied with looking strong
and I don't think that denying what they saw in Iraq would be particularly strong anyway.

Notice that they are still calling for withdrawal and still declaring the surge an overall failure.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. THEY DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN IRAQ
Edited on Wed Aug-22-07 02:36 PM by kenny blankenship
they (Levin and Republican J. Warner) spent the two days on BASE, getting talked at by U.S. brass.

TWO DAYS. That's it.

read this before you commit more mistakes.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/22/iraq/index.html
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. How are you going to pay for it?
The debt we're racking up is ruining our economy - we're facing serious economic problems here on the home front.

Where the hell do you expect to get more troops? Are Dem leaders in favor of starting up the draft?

If there is some hope of progress, why not use the opportunity to bring in the UN and get the US the hell out of there?

Dems just wasted millions on stupid ads boasting about the minimum wage increase. The stupid... it hurts.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. "masterpiece of spin" -- ding ding ding we have a winner
"forced to recalibrate their own message" -- examples???

"will face an advertising blitz" -- oooh, I'm skeered

"candidates <...> have fallen into line <...> to praise military progress while excoriating Iraqi leaders" -- partially true. Some of them have, although I have not noticed a change in the way they talk about it: seems to me that the more cautious mainstream (dare I say, DLC type) Democrats have always made it a point to preface their remarks about Iraq with statements like "our brave soldiers have done everything asked of them" etc.

Of course, one need only look at which Democrat they cite: Rahm Emanuel.

Assholes.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Don't worry
In about nine months, Hillary will be anointed, and *many* of us can say can bye to DU very easily. At that point any discussion will be over-not allowed-Hillary uber allies. Which is SO ironic all the whining about Hillary not being loved here-just wait a few months-then it will be mandatory! Patience is not the strong suit for these DLC/conservative Demo-Republic lite folks is it? JEEZ.

And if she's actually elected, the Democratic party will be officially over. But that's another story. I see a fucked if we do, fucked if we don't deal with that Clinton name attached. I think it's a very interesting time in history though, don't you? (one that might take some here more years to figure out-but some of us already have figured it out...if it walks like a duck....)

Don't expect HRC to stop this war or any other that Mr. Bush starts before he's out of office. The Dems are not the opposition party. Not the majority of them, and we have a bare majority anyway. WE DON'T HAVE THE VOTES. (more things I learned from Will Pitt) And the Dems have no conviction. You need at LEAST one of those.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I expect any dem president to stop this war
I really do.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
41. Fucking morons. This is all psy-ops. Nobody believes this propaganda.
It's like the world just fell off its axis and congress is spinning us towards a black hole.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
43. Dem leaders believe Bush / Corporate Media propaganda?
What "positive" news?

Do they believe everything they read in the paper? Are they really that dumb?

Haven't they read the polls that show most Americans want out of Iraq?

Here's a question about Iraq for you Dem leaders:


HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT AND WHERE WILL YOU GET MORE TROOPS?
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NCarolinawoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
45. Wes Clark says the surge is only bringing TRANSITORY gains.
TRANSiTORY = existing only briefly, short-lived.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
47. It's voracious spin; they're adapting this admin's mantra; repeat it enough,
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