losing the impeachment battle is better then ignoring their crimes

Maurice Hinchey recently supported censuring the president although we didn't have enough votes to make it happen.

I think that we need to fail at impeachment. I think that it is better to fight the fight that needs fighting, even if it means we lose.

I think the sheeple will see the Dems as standing up to criminal privilege.

I doubt impeachment would clog up the dem agenda too much. They can still vote to give Bush billions in war funding :mad:

Better to fight for what is right then to condone illegal activities. You are either with us or agin us.

of failure is to lack the inner strength to attempt to do the right thing.

of cowardice is grounded in the fear of failure.

-Hoot

I feel like too many people say they don't support someone like Kucinich because he is unelectable even though he stands for many of the same things we all stand for. Same thing with impeachment, we are all afraid to lose to a Republican so we back down just like our congress and fold. We should all vote on the issues not on the name, look at where all the candidates stand on the issues and vote for who stands for what you believe in even if there is a chance to lose. Look at some of the posts here and think about what allot of us say in regards to the election, we are afraid of failure like our congress is so we go with what we think will win even if its not what our hearts and minds tell us.


When the primaries come, I will not be one of the cowards. I WILL vote for who supports the things I think is right for the country. I hope everyone else will find it in them to do the same!

:kick:

I have far more respect for those who try and fail than those who fail to try.

and the sink.

Even in his failure, his model empowered the Chief and a regime of corruption (Nurse Ratched) was brought closer to its end.

one of the great moments in film history.

Only Losers don't try!!

the Constitution. If we do nothing, then we are saying -- I don't know what we're saying; just which heinous crimes would be enough to start impeachment proceedings? Apparently, stealing elections; lying us into war, and causing perhaps a million unnecessary deaths; eroding civil liberties back to pre-Magna Carta standards; aiding and abetting war profiteering on an unprecedented scale; politicizing and destroying almost every federal agency; ignoring inconvenient laws, subpoenas and investigations; outing a covert CIA agent working on WMD's, etc. is not enough!

And since torture is Okey dokey - I'd have gone for attaching electrodes to Rove's heinie till he spilt the beans abt his involvement

#5

If anyone didn't vote to impeach after the Katrina response alone--much less all the other hundreds of scandals, we would hang that around their neck for the rest of their political careers.

It's not about removal from office---it's about exposure.

People didn't rally around Clinton because they hate impeachment, they rallied around him because it was a stupid impeachment, and everyone saw that.

This would be the least stupid, least egregious, most necessary action our government has ever taken. Some facet of our government has to put an official stamp of disapproval on this administration's practices, or our country is lost forever...

because if a vote was held tomorrow in the House to authorize the Judiciary Committee to hold impeachment hearings, it would lose and the game would be over before the first pitch.

Exposure can and should happen through oversight and investigatory hearings independent of the issue of impeachment. Once the case is built, then it may be possible to actually start the impeachment process. (Just as in the Nixon scenario the case was largely made by the Senate Watergate Committee and the Special Prosecutor in advance of the authorization of impeachment hearings in the House and as in the Clinton situation, where the case was largely made in advance by the Starr report, again predating the authorization of impeachment hearings.)

but I do think the outcome is important.

Look at this from the sheeple point of view - politics is a cartoon pro-wrestling type of activity.

The GOP is strong - the impeach over a blowjob (sure they "lost" control of congress - how much did that really hurt them? they lost power for a short time, but the sheeple rewarded their strength).

The Dems are weak - Bush is an all out unpopular criminal, yet the dems are too weak to do anything about it.

The valued outcome is that laws are respected by those in power, and that the sheeple don't think of the dems as losers that can only win when the strong party goes way too far. No one wants to support loser weaklings. They want to support winners.

The only way for dems to show that they are winners is to fight. If we stay the course, we get HRC in the White House and the GOP in control of Congress. Corporations win, working people lose.

Acting on principle IS the principled "result."

Failing to do so -- to impeach -- is complicity with the corruption, whatever result is achieved.

--

And if we "fail" but convince the sheeple that we are fighting for them, then we win. Workers win. Justice wins. The American way wins.

I have difficulty weighing the noble cause of impeachment against
the thought of how much we may have to lose should we, and/or our leaders f**k it up.

They can fight for working people, universal health care, to end the war, end the drug war, end the deficit... (these all take political courage to fight - the dems don't seem to full of political courage, imo)
But they need to fight for something.
At least they can fight for impeachment. If the sheeple feel Bush deserves a pass, then so be it. At least our base will know that we went to the mat for them - for SOMETHING.

Thanks for your replys. Peace and low stress my friend.

"Give to us clear vision that we may know where to stand and what to stand for—because unless we stand for something, we shall fall for anything."

--Peter Marshall (1902–67) Senate chaplain, prayer offered at the opening of the session, April 18, 1947.


"The hottest spots in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great crisis, maintain their neutrality."

-- President John F. Kennedy


“It’s important to impeach Bush as a civics lesson — to say to the American people that America doesn’t torture people. We do not intercept the telephone conversations of hundreds of thousands of American citizens illegally.

You can’t just tear up the Bill of Rights. He HAS to be impeached. The American people have to remember how sacred the Constitution of the United States is.”

-- Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

The polls don't look so clear.

votes in the Senate there are.

He'd be prosecuted in the press and in public opinion, and the damage would last for decades--more so than Nixon.

Right now the Democrats are set to go down in history as being complicit with the Bush administration. We are going to go right down the tubes with him, if we don't seperate ourselves from this behavior.

The Dem consultants are treating us like kindergarteners. We won't get upset to see our leader get criticized. We know the difference between good impeachment and bad impeachment. Right now the public is fed up with B*sh and his gang of criminals.

It's a fallacy to say Americans don't like impeachment. We don't like impeachment over petty, sexual stuff. We rallied around Clinton, but it STILL cost us the presidency in 2000.

lil' bro Jeb was the gov.

He had a very good presidency that should've coasted Gore into the White House.

Gore also ran a terrible campaign.

even implies that Darth Cheney and the village idiot ever made it to 1600 legitimately. And unfortunately far too many of the memes thrust at us from all directions are completely and patently false and require correction. Mea culpa, cui bono.

> He'd be prosecuted in the press

Why? The press is run by corporations that support his corporate agenda.

If the press wanted the truth out there they could do it. But they don't and impeachment won't change that.

> and the damage would last for decades

I agree, but who would suffer the damage?

Let the record show who stood up for Democracy and the rule of law.

Plus, IF the M$M actually reported on the impeachment proceedings, should it get that far, the public support would swell as they learn and understand just what this criminal admin has done, and continues to do.

> Plus, IF the M$M actually reported on the impeachment proceedings

Oh they'll report on it. You won't like what they say, but they'll "report" on it.

:kick: & r

is that they are afraid of all that would come out about how things have been done and who did them.

All the rest is "political language" which "is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable". IOW, too many of "our" leaders are up to their eyeballs in the graft and don't want it to come out.

Are we not a nation of Constitutional law?

Are our elected representatives not sworn to uphold the law?

Above all things, let the truth be told.

And we also need to deliver the message, strong and clear, to all corrupt politicians, white house flunkies, and all those that would seek to get us into another war and subvert the constitution that such behavior will never, ever be tolerated again. We are giving them tacit approval by NOT taking impeachment action against them.

there is always room for one more person who gets it ;-)

for all that get it

think we are stupid because they keep feeding us feeble excuses.

And that's why I am a proud member of the ABH crew. I am sick of the wheeling and dealing. Sick of political strategies.
If they think they are so clever, than how come they have accomplished next to nothing in the past decade or so?

Their tactics work about as well as the military strategy in Iraq. Even though that seems to be the bar for political genius these days, I set my personal standards a little higher.

I don't feel that I have too much representation in Washington and that is pissing me off.

Peace and low stress to you and yours!

that's a phony argument, holds no water.

The "if you don't think we need to impeach this second, then you are ignoring the crimes" is a strawman game. The sad fact are the crimes this regime have committed are so widespread, it'll take years to clear through. Right now, with an Executive that is stonewalling and obstructing, investigating and getting to the real truth and justice is almost impossible. Inuendo and hearsay can't convict...solid direct evidence can...and this takes both time and fortitude to bring to a just conclusion.

Right now, investigations are hampered by a non-functioning Department of Justice...making this cover-up extra hard to penetrate...but time and persistence is what will bring truth to light, crimes to prosecution, criminals to conviction, booosh and cheney to eventual impeachment. This story is just in the opening chapters...the most salacious of this slimy book are sketched out to many of us, but the fine points haven't been unearthed.

This is like going after an organized crime family (BFEE anyone??) where an omarta is still in place...but starting to break down. This silence is being cracked by squeezing up...putting pressure on the underlings to go after the bigger fish. There are many crimes and criminals...some who could easily slip away (like Rove et al did during Watergate) to resurface down the road, "repackage" themselves and resume their fascist activities.

The upcoming election makes it difficult for anything to be done...but this doesn't mean ignoring or condoning what's goin on. It should be an incentive for those of us who want a complete and full investigation and prosecution (going all the way to the Hague) an impeachment now is like chopping off the top of the weed, but the roots are still left beneath the surface.

The focus should be on defunding the Iraq fiasco and putting pressure on Repugnican WINOs...Waivers...who stand in the way of brining this ugly war for profit into some kind of oversight and control. It also means to push forward with investigations...including the use of Inherent contempt, if needed, to force investigations forward...and work for a Democratic executive...and then put pressure on that Executive to finally let the investigations move ahead with a energized DOJ and not allowing asshat to pardon any of his buddies who are under indictment.

I wish the 24 hr. period hadn't passed.

:kick:

cooler heads have prevailed.

and they wrong.

And what is there to clog up even? It's not as if Chimpy will sign something "liberal" into law.

This is a chance to put the brakes on the totalitarian wannabes.

:kick:

I've never been fond of phyrric victories for one assuming we could pull it off, and since you are proposing going ahead knowing we will lose remember this:

There are two kinds of last stands we could get into here: Thermapolaye or Little Big Horn. The first is a sacrifice with a greater purpose involved, the second is just plain stupid. If we charge ahead and FAIL in impeachment then we might have a nice moral victory NOW, but we will have effectively shot impeachment between the eyes for all times. It will make Bush even more dangerous as he will have faced the greatest danger to his power and position and won and as such will have nothing to fear, not from anyone save an armed revolt and as despised as he is it took the passions inflamed by slavery to make that happen and people are not THAT pissed with him across the board for that to happen.

As much as the Dems have compromised and fallen back on other issues that they shouldn't have, and if they hadn't we probably would be in a better position NOW to impeach, we simply cannot pull it off if we tried and going ahead with impeachment knowing it will fail is just plain stupid and makes all of us look like a bunch of fools who don't know how the political system works.

We stand for workers, but the party is owned by corporations.
We want to "end the war", but we rally around war with Iran.
We want privacy, the bill of rights, then we authorize spying.
We want universal health care, but we take cash from pharm corporations.
We want to end the drug war, but we don't want to look soft on crime.

What I am saying is that the sheeple want impeachment.
What I am saying is that our base wants impeachment.
What I am saying is that fighting for impeachment is the right thing to do. If we fail, we go down fighting. We go down in a position of strength.
If we do nothing, we fail from a position of weakness.

The easy thing to do would be impeach. We fail, but we fight.
The harder thing to do would be to actually fight for working people and against the corporations / end funding for the war / filibuster as needed. That would take courage, my friend. When has our party ever acted out of courage? When have we acted out of a position of strength?

Either we accept the neo-con way as the future, or we fight for the rule of law. It is our choice. I say we fight the neo-con agenda with the best tool possible.
Put impeachment on the table. Let the public decide.

If we fight and fail, we still win. We only lose when we allow crimes to go unpunished.

... an acquitted Bush - which is the likely outcome of impeachment today - is a vindicated Bush.

An acquittal seals in stone the rightness and goodness of Bush's actions.

I don't want that, but I'm pretty sure I won't get that either. The congressional leaders seem to understand this well.

But rather than clear the path from impeachment to conviction people just keep demanding that congress start the ball rolling with all kinds of chest puffing words about why we don't need to care where the ball will stop rolling.

I would like someone to hold him accountable.
History will vindicate impeachment and villify those that enabled fear to rule over the rule of law.

There might be better options if you all stop the impeachment rain dance and look for better options..

end the war
end the drug war
un-do welfare reform
support universal health care
overturn taft-hartley
support fair trade and oppose free trade
end corporate citizenship
electoral reform instant run off voting / end the electoral college
un-do the PATRIOT ACT
un-do NCLB
un-do Clean Skies
un-do the bankruptcy rewrite.

There is a world of activity that the DEM party could (SHOULD) be engaged in. You know what they say - PEACE TAKES COURAGE! Impeachment is a poor substitute for a true progressive agenda.

But we need to take what we can get.

... so people should stop wasting time demanding impeachment right now.

If you take Hinchey's case for censure, all you need to do is change censure to impeachment.

If we fail, we go down fighting. I think that the sheeple will support our trying to real in the chimp.

Even if it was a 48 hour, state the case and take a vote kind of situation, I think we would look good to the sheeple.

The GOP didn't get Clinton, but they looked strong. People came out to support Clinton, because it was his personal business that he was impeached for. I doubt the sheeple will want to support Bush's lies and crimes, especially when you consider the result of his actions.

Peace and low stress. Thank you for your replies on this thread.
:toast:

Bush may think history will be his judge, but the reality is that the majority of people have already decided that he was the worse ever on so many levels. He is toast and what's better than that is that anyone who has touched & embraced him has turned toxic and un-electable (McCain).

The Dems hold the both houses by a slim majority. With a number of seats in each house with in reach for going over to the Dems, why risk loosing what everyone has worked so hard for? Just because Bush & cabal leave office in just over a year, does not mean that hearing and indictments still could not come about after the fact.

The hurdle the Dems have is that the GOP controls the media and the message. Unless Bush is personally caught in a stall next to Craig while on C-SPAN, any impeachment proceedings will be wrongly framed by the media as anything other than justice. So then the Dems have to waste time and money defending their actions instead of just killing the clock and being ready to move forward once a Dem gets into the White House.

When your opponent is drowning, do not do anything that might give him a rope. Step aside and let him continue to immolate himself. If nothing else, Bush has shown that he capability of being able to totally make his situation worse than before is truly endless. We just need to be disciplined enough to stay out of the spray of the blow-back.

Bush is not just an "opponent", he is a treasonous criminal who has done more to endanger this country and its people than any external foe could even dream about. We are in a real constitutional crisis right now and the Constitution is clear about the remedy. As far as the media is concerned, if the American people are so easily played then why did the Dems take Congress last year? We've been living in this nightmare long enough that every American has felt it's effects in their own lives and the media is just not persuasive enough to convince a majority of Americans otherwise. I am pretty sure that if the House impeached most Americans would support it and the media be damned.

... and just want an "impeached" in the history books for W's entry.

It's apparently too much to ask that they do the work needed to make a successful impeachment and conviction possible. They just want a congressman to start the ball rolling for them.

Conyers says he doesn't have the votes - even in the house. But no one talks about how to get him the votes.

The impeachment gun has no bullets but so many words are wasted about our "duty" to squeeze the trigger anyway. The click of the hammer falling against an empty chamber is not good enough for me and any politician that offers that to me as a solution loses my respect.

It's hard to believe any of the words about how bad Bush is from all the impeachment hawks when they don't seem to care what the odds are of his eventual removal.

If we truly believe that bushco is destroying this country then we must begin a fight to the end. If, however, you don't think bushco is that bad then you are willing to compromise and go along to get along.

Impeachment is the beginning of a fight to the end and those that profess a will to impeach are those who think bushco needs to be beaten back into the ground, as impeachment is the way to do just that.

However, if you are against impeachment then you must be one of those who don't think bushco is all that bad and should remain in power

People appreciate doing what must be done to get to the goal and is why they love the pubbies so much.... the pubbies let nothing get in their way of total domination

Dems on the other hand are doubted because we are not willing to do the hard work necessary to destroy bushco

Pubbies have dragged this country into an overseas war but Dems won't even lift a finger to begin the war to get rid of bushco

unfortunately the stakes are often very high.

Question, which of the two scenarios do you prefer?

1) Hearings being held, impeachment vote hits the floor, but come next November, accusations fly, not only does the GOP retain the White House (Bush redux for 8 more years), but gains the Senate (ergo judicial & political nominees) and House back in the process? Bye-bye oversight and so long any future hearings on Iraq or ending the war anytime soon.

2) Hearings being held, decisions being reserved until after November '08 and the Dems win the White House, gain 25 seats in the House and 4 Seats in the Senate (53 is nearly filibuster proof)? Enough votes in House & Senate to begin troop draw-down.


By going after Bush, you threaten to make things worse than they are and dash any hopes of correcting what has been done. You have to think bigger than Bush. You also stick it to the troops as a return to power by the GOP means Iraq becomes our 51st state.

There is no doubt about this that this sucks. Its just the way it is. Bush has made it by in life by playing the system and getting by. This is about the only thing that he is masterful of. The system is in his favor now which is why all those around him are bailing out. They don't want to be near him as once the sniping starts, there will be collateral damage....and no one wants to be the one to get tagged.

Life is not always fair, but we as stewards of what is left of America owe it to the rest of the country to do what we can to put ourselves in the best position to clean up the mess Bush has made, and not just with Iraq.



-editted typo--

:kick:

Many of their crimes are being investigated, have not been ignored, and have been fought by the dems. So right off the bat claiming that not impeaching means ignoring their crimes is an exercise in melodrama and is false on its face.

Furthermore, pursuing impeachment when known for certain out of the gate that the process would fail, would make it nothing more than a political game. The republicans and the media will EAT US ALIVE for pursuing such a thing under such circumstances just for grande ole theater. No matter our honorable intentions or otherwise, much of the public will buy the spin aimed at them and we will quite simply lose many votes in 08. It might impact us to such a degree that we lose both houses AND the presidency. And that is a risk that is just quite simply not worth taking right now. That holds even more true, since it is a risk without reward. The reward would be removing him from office, but there is NO chance of that happening. So no reward, only a big ole show and a whole lot of risk.

Well we can serve this nation far better by increasing our majority in both houses and winning the presidency. We will protect the constitution far more by doing so, then by putting it all at risk for a dog and pony show doomed to fail out of the gate.

So though your OP is nice in its idealism, I don't find it to hold any real legitimacy in reality. In reality, we'd be splitting our party, giving the republicans and the media machine more ammunition then they could've ever dreamed, would help re-unify the republican party, and would almost certainly cost us at least one of the house, senate or presidency.

vote for Nader.

"A vote for Nader is a vote for the GOP!"

But to the independent / leftist / progressive / radical, Nader is a vote against corporate rule.

What I am suggesting is that Dems fighting for chIMPEACHMENT is win-win. The Dems get to show that they are willing to fight for something (since they wont fight to end the war, the drug war, or for universal health care, or bankruptcy reform, or election reform).

Half of registered voters don't vote. Half those eligible don't even register. I really think that most Americans think that the political parties only do what the corporations want them to do. Impeachment gives Dems a chance to do what their base AND non-voters want - accountability.

Even if M$M say it is stupid, I think we will come out ahead. After all, the M$M said Iraq was a brilliant, easy war. The sheeple will see impeachment for what it is - containing a reckless pResident. Even if we lose, we are in a better position to censure w. and we are in a better position to lead the county - we did what was right - we fought the fight that needed fighting - and America will be better off for it.