Is my "DOCTOR" really a Doctor?

So I was pondering the reason why the medical practice in this country is highly populated with doctors that have transferred here from India. My PPO in-network listing is made up of nearly 70% of physicians with degrees from India. Looking up my doctor, I find that he is classified under Internal Medicine. Researching his license on my state's medical board, I found him as having a MBBS from a medical college in Gujarat, India. Visiting their website, the academic requirements to enter into this college's MBBS courses are a high school diploma. As you know, all practicing doctors in the US go through a minimum of 7 years of studies and an internship beyond that... The first 4 years of undergraduate studies provide a solid basis for communication skills, advanced math and all the other well rounded knowledge that you would expect from a professional in any industry.

My assumption was that this MBBS must be the same as MD in the US. Well this is not exactly true. The MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine And Bachelor Of Surgery) is a 4.5 year course, with a 1 year internship. After completion of a MBBS, they have the ability to transfer to the US and gain a residency (after a test).

After reading this, I'm not so sure that I feel all that comfortable with him probing me, prescribing drugs, and making life defining decisions for me, when he really doesn't have any more of a degree than a nurse in the US would have.

Do we have any "real" doctors in the house that can either confirm or reject this?

In the UK, for example, you enter medical school straight from "high school" (what they call "A-Levels") at 18-19 years old. The medical degree then takes 5-6 years, resulting in a MBChB or MBBS (depending on the medical school) qualification.

India's medical schools are patterned on the UK system, as are the schools in many Commonwealth countries.

More on the UK system here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school_(United_Kingdom)

and 8 of them were from overseas. 2 were from western europe and 6 were from the middle east/pakistan/india. 4 were from the usa...

But I am kicking your thread because I would like to know, too!!!

and subsequently passed internal medicine board exams, I think you can relax. Your state will not allow substandard foreign doctors in to take jobs away from US doctors. The standards are very rigorous, IIRC.

Does it. Undergraduate education in the liberal arts is a fairly uniquely american luxury. What do you care if your doctor took history, or english lit, art history or whatever? He's passed his boards in your state, or the state wouldn't license him.

outside the US. They must complete the internship in this country and complete all the same national competency boards as US-trained physicians. Then, there is the matter of residencies, which are competitive and favor US-trained physicians in general.

She claims that the requirements there were more stringent than here in the US - have no idea whether that's true. She is now board certified in the US for both Internal Medicine and OB/GYN. I know she's really great about continuing education, and is especially vigilant in keeping up with cardiac care advances. I would guess that any foreign-educated doctors would have differing course/practicum work, but the real measure is if they can pass Board certs, which IIRC, is a significant achievement beyond an MD degree.

Or differential equations?

I've got a feeling this guy's communicatoin skills and advanced math are already more well rounded then plenty of American college graduates.

giving me a row of stitches on my face because i got mauled by a dog... I think some study of the arts would be a beneficial component.

If he wanted to switch me from one anti-depressant to a different one and reduce the effects of withdraw side-effects, I would expect him to use my weight, age, metabolic rate of half-life based on amount and duration of the original prescription to calculate the best method of reduction over time. Calculus would be very helpful in that area, as would differentials.

So yes, I believe that all education is self relating. BTW, my doc is very difficult to understand and he often does not understand me... English Lit. may have help in this area.

He would have learned how to do proper stitching in med school, not History of Modern Art.

"If he wanted to switch me from one anti-depressant to a different one and reduce the effects of withdraw side-effects, I would expect him to use my weight, age, metabolic rate of half-life based on amount and duration of the original prescription to calculate the best method of reduction over time."

That's also well covered in med school.

"So yes, I believe that all education is self relating. BTW, my doc is very difficult to understand and he often does not understand me... English Lit. may have help in this area."

I think if anybody needs an education...

...oh, nevermind.

just...

wow.

:eyes:

He doesn't skimp on details, and appreciates the esthetics as a plastic surgeon. I completely understand your point, but sometimes I wonder if artistry is more inherent vs training. Other docs that do the same thing are not as meticulous, which is why I went to him.

but if I'm getting a row of stitches in my face, I'm going to be more concerned that the doctor is board certified in cosmetic surgery.

rather than English lit. Just my 2 cents (I wish keyboards still had a "cents" sign, like typewriters used to).

a Medical degree costs to get there....?

We have a couple of friends who went to med school in India. It's free. Both of them grew up here but had family connections there. It saved them a lot. One of them isn't that great of a doctor, but his wife is one of the best I've ever known.

When Hubby got out of med school, his base for his loan was $145K. After deferment in residency, it was $175K. We pay over $14,000 every year in med school loan payments.

a Pakistani, a Swiss, and several varieties of Hispanic. All were caring and knowledgeable. I'm an RN, so I do know the difference.

Doctors overseas have as much medical education as docs here in the US, but they don't have to waste 4 years in pre med before they get it.

Doctors overseas have to provide transcripts and often complete additional transitional course work before they are licensed to practice here.

The only problem I have ever had with a foreign doctor is the occasional cultural friction. It is not a problem to cope with if one recognizes it.

Because the focus in other countries is on healing instead of profit, I find foreign docs who practice better medicine than some domestic docs who have been in the system just a little too long.

but if you integrate the undergrad and grad degrees into one larger program, it's really possible to get the same education in a shorter period of time.

There are various types of programs throughout the country and the world that will teach a person in a number of years shorter in time than a traditional approach, yet they come out with excellent capacity. Some colleges have gone to making a law degree possible within a six year period, 1 year shorter than traditional approaches. Now that's only a year, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are even shorter programs out there.

Medicine is complicated, but so is law.

So there you go.

Doctor (primary-internist)for over a decade. As he grew older he retired (Did the "doctors without borders" thing until he said it had become too dangerous) and sold his practice to an Indian doctor. I figured I'd stick with him and see if I liked/trusted him. This was an important decision for me, granted that one of my children has chronic health issues.

During one of my child's initial visits, I caught him up to speed with various records from specialists regarding the condition of my child. Red flag: He had never "heard" of my child's ailments. I should've started looking for another physician then, but decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. Stupid mistake on my part.

Shortly thereafter, my child was on several courses of antibiotics and developed thrush. I knew this (Many parents for the most part "can" identify this in their children) and I am not a physician. On the first visit, he insisted that what my child had was "not" thrush and gave him a B-12 shot. Over the next week or so, I took my child back on two more occasions in which much to my dismay, the doctor said there was nothing wrong with my child.......and if there was, he didn't know what.....and referred us to see a specialist at the Cleveland Clinic. By this time, my child's throat was so sore that water couldn't even be swallowed, and the tongue was hurting severely. Much weight was lost.......

Went to the Specialist at the CC and guess what............THRUSH. If a doctor can't even identify thrush.........they shouldn't even be a physician. The Specialist at the CC asked who our primary physician was and told me to run like hell. He said that if he couldn't identify something as common as thrush, he surely couldn't handle the severity of my child's other conditions.

Needless to say, I've been searching for another physician. Given my child's serious medical conditions, I cannot afford to take a chance by having them seen by someone who shouldn't hold a medical degree.

If you're uncomfortable with your physician..........run. Find someone whom you can trust and are comfortable with. Good luck to you.

Oh....and BTW.....During my last visit with my primary physician (when he insisted that nothing was wrong with my child) he rudely threw my child's records at me and said that if I didn't trust him.....to find another doctor. Probably the best advice he ever gave....

His was a 5-year program, with 1 year of residency. Then he did ANOTHER residency and fellowship for 5 years when he came to the US. He didn't have to take a TEST - it was a grueling series of 5 licensing exams, some of which US graduates also have to take.

FMGs provide a very valuable service in that many of them serve in underserved areas where NO American graduates would deign to visit, much less move to. Research indicates that FMGs are every bit as competent as US graduates.

FMGs fill gaps where American graduates do not want to go. The US does FMGs no favors - if we didn't need them, we certainly wouldn't help them.

My husband is a brilliant psychiatric researcher. During his psych residency here the internal medicine doctors (AMERICANS) wanted him to switch from psychiatry because he was so talented.

You have the right to research your physician. I just wanted to defend the FMG living in my home, as well as many, many others I know well and whose talents and dedication I greatly admire.

BTW, one of his classmates used to be the chairman of urology at Texas Tech's medical school. That should be some indicator of FMG abilities.

I had a pediatrician for my daughter before we moved here from Russia who was amazingly talented, and I've had doctors from Pakistan, India, and France, almost all of whom good doctors.

It's been hard here for the Pakistani-born doctors lately. It just gets under my and Hubby's skin. He's had patients switch to him because "he speaks English." Yeah, we all know what that really means. Too bad they're not giving good doctors a chance because of their bigotry.

He speaks better English than many native Americans (and ALL Repukes!)

Here, it's really about racism. Hard for me to keep smiling when people tell me they're switching to my husband because he's somehow better because he's a white guy.

It's very frustrating to me that after he's been in the US for 17 years, cashiers and other business representatives STILL direct questions to me when we're together, as though he doesn't speak English and doesn't understand. It doesn't seem to bother him - he's used to it, unfortunately - but it sure bothers me.

One of our good friends's wife is from a smaller village and so her English isn't as good as his. When she was pregnant and went into labor, the ER nurses acted like she was worthless. Sent her home--even though her water had broken--and kept pretending that they couldn't understand her. The woman wrote down her husband's pager number, and they knew him and his last name, which she shared, and they still messed it all up. Almost lost her and the baby. I'm still furious about it. He was on-call in that same dang hospital and didn't know it was going on until his wife got home and could call him. He was furious, and only when he showed up in his white coat did they treat her with any respect. By then, she had a fever and was crashing. He had to wear his damn lab coat. Man, I'm starting to cry. Still makes me furious.

We ALL came from somewhere else - some of us just got here a little later. How did we become such a snobbish nation??

I wonder that myself, too.

You know, I should give her a call and see how she's doing with the baby and all.

:shrug:

it seems to me- especially with the rising costs of both undergraduate and medical school- that the american model is the one that needs some drastic change.

They usually major in pre-med or biology.

that doesn't sound too "pre-med" to me.

So even if the educational requirements are different in the country of origin, the doctor must pass the USMLE just as U.S. graduates would have to do.

These days if the doctor is going to have to practice a specialty they will usually have to complete residency training in the U.S. as well, regardless whether they have done a residency already in their home country, as DeposeTheBoyKing's husband did.

I know many people who were doctors in foreign countries, now working as nurses, techs etc. presumably because they could not pass the licensure requirements, although some no doubt just didn't want to go through the hassle. I also know many who did in fact clear these hurdles, did a U.S. residency, and are in practice.

:shrug:

relevant.

He has had rigorous testing (everything from English to premed stuff to certification testing), he's made it through residency, and he's in private practice. The real question is whether he's the right doctor for you, which is a difficult thing and depends on so many factors. If he's thorough, listens well, and anticipates things, I'd stick with him.

Doctors from Russia have the same kind of college training. What they leave out is that they have pre-med K-12 schooling in order to even go to med school.

Also, we have schools like that in the States. There's one in Ohio that's a six year program of undergrad and med school.

I know a few people in residency who did similar programs in Mexico. He's still gone through residency and he's still licensed. He's a doctor.

Really, why would he be less of a doctor because he didn't take South American Art or History of Western Thought?

Then why is this same practice not acceptable for US students? If a high school graduate can pass the MCAT, he should be allowed to skip all undergraduate courses, in your view. My question was not to belittle anyone from a foreign nation, or undermine their credentials. If people can be trained overseas and pass a state test to become a medical doctor... why is this option not available to the students of the US?

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread that cannot understand why I am asking this question in the first place. If it is so ridiculous for me to ask this question, then I guess it is ridiculous for one to pay $120K over 4 years for a degree that is useless. If the same options are not available in the US, then the playing field is not level. If there is a valid reason for the undergraduate requirements, then they should be made for everyone- Else, the US students are placed in a disadvantage.

was a Mexican-American student who went down to Mexico for med school. Of course, he found himself at a huge competitive disadvantage for American residencies--hospitals prefer students who have gone to American med schools, plain and simple. He of course didn't get into any of his top picks.

Med schools prefer students who have:
1. A background in learning the sciences.
2. Shown an ability to succeed at high academic levels.

There is no reason why they couldn't stick a high-school graduate with a good MCAT score in a med school. They don't because it's a bigger gamble than a college grad with a good MCAT score--and there are plenty of those to be had.

but the reality is ... our High Schools are NOT to par of other high schools around the world

I took Physics 101 IN HIGH SCHOOL, that was standard

My sis, took Organic Chemistry in HIGH SCHOOL, that was required

Hell she took calculus and differential equations IN HIGH SCHOOL

I took FOUR YEARS of the hard sciences, my sister who took the medical emphasis area took five
and I don't mean a year of chemistry, I mean five years

I don't mean a year of physics

That is why schools in other countries go straight to College, as in their specialized degrees.

Prep school means PREP school for University.

Since I chose humanities, I took symbolic logic, and aristotelian ethics IN HIGH SCHOOL as well as Sociology, equivalent of any intro to sociology in a US COLLEGE

That is why kids abroad go straight to a medical college, or whatever specialty they chose.

The first two years of Gen Ed, we are playing catch up, I know, the first two years I felt I was repeating High School

Hell my chemistry textbook, for my Chem 101 was the same textbook I used between junior high and high school.. just a more recent edition, and obviously in English... and my physics textbook was equivalent of physics 301.

I know shocking, but this is the way it is around the world

And why the US has quietly backed down from the world assessment tests, we are taking a beating in both math and sciences.

It's the same way in England - medical school right out of high school (well secondary school) with internship and residency at the end. It seems to work fine there. And the test that your doctor had to pass to practice in the US is pretty involved and difficult. If you have been happy with his services in the past, I wouldn't worry.

and a clear indication of how much "progress" has NOT been made in the good ol' USA.

The fundamental problem seems to me to be the fewer number of years of schooling required, not the country of origin.

If you ever wonder how your Doctor ever got his/her license to practice http://www.medtext.net/customer.html">check this out.

This is just one of the very profitable "board preparation" firms that will, in essence, teach you the test immediately before you take it. Many times, the preparation company will also give the exam.

Just think "Dr. Nick"...:scared:

well as bar exams etc.

Prep firms do NOT administer the actual tests, only the certification body involved (USMLE for basic medical licensure for foreign medical grads) can do that, I'm not sure where that bit of information comes from.

I pitch a million pieces of junk mail a week, half of them from board recertification scams.

or known anyone who has. A test-prep service is virtually essential, and I know quite a few people who have finished their M1 and M2 years (with decent grades) and paid for a service who still either failed or barely scraped through their Step 1. The depth and breadth of knowledge required to pass is frankly impossible for most people (which is why med schools are so selective). Simply using a test service, without the years of constant study before it, would not result in a passing grade for anyone.

has pre med

The reason for that, our high schools are a joke compared to their counterparts

by the way, in case you are wondering, Harvard Medical School is EXPERIMENTING with a four year degree direct from HS, and it looks, walks and smells like the medical training oh, south of the border... or anywhere else in the world

How it works is the first year is theory, after that docs in training get to go clinics all over the place

After the four years, they get a general practitioner degree,

And after that they can go for Internal medicine and from there to specialties

Sounds like xenophobia to me; big, crowded dirty country with lots of brown-skinned people? Can't possibly have superior medical training.

I read a book by a doctor who graduated from Harvard Med, one of the finest med schools in the nation. He complained that the emphasis was on pure science, to the detriment of proper patient care. He said if you attend Harvard Med, you'll graduate ready to be a microbiologist second-to-none, but not how to care for flesh-and-blood patients properly.

It's all what the school chooses to concentrate on.

And they DO have to pass U.S. Medical boards...

:eyes: