I think that the borders closed and immigration should be stopped for a while...

especially since we are suppose to be fighting terrorism, and the people in this country are not benefitting from anything that is good, but someone from another country can come over to this country and receive training and other things that citizens of this country cannot.


I don't see why this country is not training our own people instead of going to other countries to recruit when they have a fresh supply of people here that need jobs and could be inventing and creating things, and bringing new industries. Companies who are shipping jobs out of this country should be taxed to the MAX. Have a nice day everyone!

Butterfly, you will probably get a lot of irate, hateful responses to that post.

The Democratic Party has taken a pro-immigrant stance almost without exception.

I do not agree with the Democratic Party on this, but that is still the party line.

On this issue, you guys would be more comfortable singing with the choir over at The Freep.

:rofl:

lol

because I think that it needs to be said, I am tired of seeing citizens who have been here for years and have done the right things to be successful, or just to make a living, who are becoming homeless, losing their homes and other things, while someone else will be brought here and will benefit even more...

What right or reason do we have to close the door on others arriving now? How is the situation any different than it was a century ago?

and there are too many things that need to be fixed before adding more ingredients to this recipe...

Are you even aware that in 1907 there was a financial panic and the unemployment rate in American cities was around 12 percent? Families were packed into tenements, 10 to a room. Many people were literally starving, living in squalor, and children worked at age 5. Gangs roamed the streets.




So, tell me what's changed in a century? How are things more out of control today?

Surely you aren't saying that we should repeat this situation?

Don't scapegoat the recent arrivals, the weakest, most vulnerable part of the population.

Cutting immigration isn't going to solve the country's structural problems -- most of which have to do with a widening gap in wealth and power between the top one-percent and the rest of us. If you want to improve living standards and job security, the most effective changes would be changes in tax and trade policies, not immigration restriction.

If you want to keep good jobs here, you certainly shouldn't close the door -- you should reward companies that keep manufacturing and service jobs here, while deeply penalizing those that off-shore.

However, I don't agree with you in this area, never have and probably never will.

My objections to your position have been posted at DU many, many times by many, many people, and have not changed your views, so I won't take up your time with another useless post.

However, I regret that this issue divides us so fiercely. Are you aware that the discussions here on immigration mirror those on Free Republic? Pro and con make exactly the same arguments and call each other "DUmmies" in the way we would call others "Freepers" or "Freeptards?"

I will say that some sort of study of the backgrounds of those interested in the immigration debate might be interesting, both of posters here and on Free Republic.

But, the discussion has to be civil to be worthwhile. I try hard to restrain myself from personal insults - but, I am imperfect.

This is a cross-cutting issue that divides Left and Right. Reasonable people can differ on this one. :hi:

Reasonable people do disagree on this subject. Let's all remind ourselves to be civil.

doesn't mean that we don't on others, I don't necessarily see it as the freepers do, they are saying it because they hate...

I'm with you. I'm just sick of arguing about it.

I'm done...

I disagree with leveymg. I very strongly agree with you not only on your original post but on your comment that there's a lot of hate here at DU on the immigration subject, most of it directed toward those of us who are concerned about jobs right here.

No one is concerned but they will be when they see what the agreement that bush has with Canada and mexico does... I guess then they will be heading for the border...

There was supposed to be an acute need for labor to build infrastructure.

WHITE labor, that is. African Americans were not welcome, and many African American leaders of the day opposed bringing new folks to do jobs that African Americans could do. Instead, African Americans had to wait for WWI before they were admitted to factories.

Owners and managers then, like those now, wanted to keep wages down--so they were happy to see labor supply increased! The more the merrier, as far as they were concerned.

Oh, and some historians believe that at least 1/4 of the immigrants went back to the old country when the jobs dried up in the 1920s. I have a great-uncle who did just that. Thankfully, he went back to Sweden and survived the wars.

I know you pro-growth types think there's no consequences for paving over every inch of the country so everyone who wants to can live here. I say we adopt a model based on New Zealand's. Explain why their system is wrong and ours better.

That's some kind of progressivism, right there.

What is our immigrant friendly government doing about our people.

doesn't want to here that, because it must benefit them in some way.

lol

eaten by someone else diminish you in the least?

or anyone trying to make a better life for themselves. When we start punishing the companies that are ENCOURAGING illegal immigration so they can have chep labor then I say open the borders. People shouldn't come to America just to be made slaves and so they can hurt the poor already living here. We need to fix the American dream before we invite anyone else to share it.

isn't American any more, it's global. Maybe it's always been that way and I'm just ignorant.

But these multinational corporations need to be held to account for the suffering they cause in pursuing their bottomline, whether it's in Gilroy or Oaxaca or Jersey.

It won't be easy. But in the meantime, it wouldn't be a bad idea to remember what the "sides" to this struggle really are. I sound like a Commie, don't I, shadow?

:)

but I'm not naming names B-) Immigration is a fence I'm on. My family is born of immigrants as are most of ours but as I said there is too much corruption here in the land of plenty right now. When the criminals are gone than gods willing all free peoples will be able to enjoy our liberties.

people have to leave in order to just eat.

It's the usual suspects, no kidding.

ooga booga

I have been posting here for a while and I am tired of people beating around the bush, just because somebody doesn't like it or doesn't think it should be said...

of the many READING opportunites presented here that would better inform you of the economic dynamics of immigration. Immigrants are NOT your enemy. The baseline bigotry you express is one of the tools you offer the ruling class to obfuscate reality for you.

this is about survival...I said nothing about immigrants being my enemy. Don't try to put words in my mouth...

You seem to have taken the bait that those "thems," whoever they may be, but they're CERTAINLY NOT Americans, are overrunning the country to "take your stuff." Try looking past the people to the power structure. WHO is it offering those H1B visas and WHY?

Americans are 6% of the world population gobbling up 25% of the resources. Look past the Mexicans to discover WHY so many are risking their lives to cross the border. WHO destroyed the structures they depended on? Are you benefitting from AmAgbiz shenanigans in Mexico? You do realize your suggestion flies in the face of your corp-gubmint interests, oder? You've been had! Open your eyes!

Do you want to seal the Canadian border too? Just asking. :shrug:

we need to build that wall immediately!

And in southern California, there is a horde of terraist nannies and gardeners.

Enough is enough!

:shrug:

for a while, it has nothing to do with anyone's ethnicity, race or anything else, and to your last question yes...

is nothing more than ignorance with a megaphone. Ain't gonna happen. Do yourself a favor and find out WHY. THEN be careful what you ask for. Do you REALLY want to be locked IN???

P.S. I am supposed to...

but we can come and go as we please,unless homeland security stops us in the meantime we need to find out who is coming in and out of this country if we are suppose to be fighting a war on terror, why do you find it so hard to wrap your mind around that? Will we still be fighting a war on terror if we get another president,if so what steps should we take to fight it?

the fake war on Terra?

I almost hope you don't answer this post.

:rofl:

The reason they cannot come legally is that they do not qualify under any of the strict categories for legal immigrants.

If you were that interested in security and really wanted to know who was here, you would support an immigration reform that would be more realistic and something enforceable, allowing for people to come in with passports and register that they are here.

I never know what is meant by "close the borders," but assume you are saying "enforce the immigration laws" and that is near to impossible, since our laws are so much more restrictive than the number of people who can obviously find jobs here.

And to head off the whine "what if everybody wanted to come here?" well not everybody does. Everyone who really wants to come, already does. We just let them live underground because we are too stubborn to update our 1950s-era laws.

The reality is, most immigrants are not terrorists - as in the kaboom kind.

But they are hear to learn our jobs then get shipped back.

Why is America helping _____'s local economies? What the fuck happened to America's economy and WHY are Americans' tax dollars NOT being used on Americans?

This isn't about bigotry as you think it to be. It's about economics, and those pesky little realities that transcend it.

If politicians talk of tax cuts and supporting offshoring, they should be giving the lowest 90% 100% tax cuts. To prepare for what they have in mind for us, if there really is a plan, which I doubt. It's just about greed. And the greedy are using those people like they are everyone else. They also think "Indian = IT", how's THAT for racism?

The issue is never a leaf blowing on the wind... it's a diamond, with enough facets to reflect all sorts of dots - but dots reflected so far, it's impossible to really connect them to make a pattern. It's a mess. Spaghetti.

"But they are hear to learn our jobs then get shipped back."

Wtf?

when you consider the incredible ease with which TPTB are able to play on it and xenophobia, keeping the spotlight OFF THEMSELVES and the policies they enact for their OWN benefit. The equation is: Indian=(CHEAP)IT

ooga booga back atchooa.

:eyes:

And a disabled profile. Hmmmm. ..

Walling up our borders is not a good idea, in fact it is a hideous hateful act of paranoia. Your fear of immigrants has been deliberately implanted in you by the elites who run this country in order to divert you from noticing that the real problem is that they have corrupted our system of government and are busy plundering the nation for their benefit.

"someone from another country can come over to this country and receive training and other things that citizens of this country cannot" - generally not true.

"Companies who are shipping jobs out of this country" - has nothing directly to do with immigration eh? In fact if all our jobs were shipped overseas immigration would pretty much come to a halt. Perhaps since you have been conned into fear of immigrants you should applaud outsourcing as an indirect way of ending your perceived immigration problem.

I don't believe in outsourcing or anything that effects many who have been in this country for years. Since we are losing jobs why in the hell do we need more people... LET'S TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY HERE! Why are we importing a job force while we have one here ready and waiting to be trained...

CLOSE THE BORDERS!

Illegal Immigration = higher profits for crooked businessmen

It's Capitalism in action they try (and successfully) try to fool everyone into thinking that illegal immigration is so rampant because us bleeding hearts feel sorry for "them brown people" but the truth is illegal immigration exists to keep the human capital of low cost labor at a surplus.


You have as much chance at capping illegal immigration as you do of convincing bush that tax cuts for the rich are a bad idea.

PS you are absolutely wrong with the notion that someone from another country can come over here and receive any kind of training. Unless you live here in Arizona or any of the other border states you don't have a clue of what you're talking about and I hate it when people from non border states think they know they know the impact of illegal immigration. Illegals get absolute shit out here, some slick billy bob sends out a coyote to pick up some low cost peasants, and those peasants largely if they make it across without being robbed, beaten, or murdered stay confined to a small area fearful of being caught or seen by any authorities.

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:loveya: ;)

:popcorn::beer:

are trying to shrink here.

:rofl:

For those of us with a morbid fear of trans fats, it's a pretty good alternative; just don't use Orville Redenbacher's.

Good to see one of the saner people on this issue weigh in. :thumbsup:

in Latin America and then exploiting the hungry class. Oh, and then, blaming the victims.

Have a nice day, butterfly!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x174378#175096

"Economic Royalists threw the market open to the third world both by outsourcing and encouraging illegal immigration, and that way they priced Americans trying to live decent lives out of the labor market." (Post #9)

"Not a shot at the third world and its population problems and poverty just a shot at the boundless greed and treachery of First World economic and political elites.

The problem, in my eyes, isn't the 3rd World "invading" but the top .01% of 1st-worlders trying to beat their own countrymen down into the mire of 3rd world wages. The subject-verb construction I used was meant to place the blame, the action, directly on those string pulling 1st worlders, not on the 3rd worlders. It's not an "invasion" by the 3rd world I'm talking about it's hijacking of the supposedly democratic 1st world governments by their corporate residents both to prevent enforcement of some laws and to create whole new bodies of laws that eliminate the existence of borders for their own exclusive corporate benefit.

As for poor people, I got LOTS of poor people right here in Atlanta who need help. They live right across the MARTA tracks from me, and as long as low wages, scarce jobs, and racial/class inequities in education and hiring keep my nieghbors in poverty, those poor people in China and India are going to have to take a fucking number and WAIT for my sympathy. My neighbors come first." (Post #30)

(I assume that workers from Mexico and Central America would also be in the "take a number" category.)

and not with other workers.

I guess I don't understand how that makes sense. lol

They know that having an underclass of illegal aliens coming here will push down wages for Americans. That's in all low-skill jobs, not just the ones done by illegals - the Americans who lose their jobs are dumped on the labor market, and of course more supply = lower price.

Do you have a link or ref for that?

And in truth, it's not that simple. The corporatists keep distrupting democratic movements in Latin America, for example. In doing so, they get a number of benefits and one of those is cheap labor that comes here because of hunger.

BushCo just subverted the Mexican federal election -- 'member? Why do you think they went to all that trouble?

Undocumented workers are, in the bigger picture, natural allies of American workers. Because we are ALL being exploited by the same few thugs.

circumstances or where they come from and life experiences. If you bring up a touchy subject a lot of people here think that if you vote democratic that we all will agree about certain things, if not you are a troll. You can call me a troll a day long but I am not going to shut up and this is what I believe.


I also believe that the Republicons are trying to pit us all against each other but, why do other countries seal their border and this country doesn't especially since we have had terrorist attacks why isn't everyone thinking about that, we don't know who in the hell is in this country.Another thing I don't agree with is this new id card that everyone is suppose to have...This card is not going to protect anyone who will be working were they will be making the cards will they be illegal immigrants too...

mean anything.

The Democratic party holds the value that "all men are created equal" whereas the Republic party does not. That's one of the things that makes us different from the Thuggery.

And the phrase isn't "all American citizens" but all, period.

Why should a poor person in China or India be worth less to me than a poor person in Florida or Alaska. Because they don't speak English? Because I don't and will never see them? (I doubt I'll ever see the poor people of Alaska or Maine or any number of other states.) Can I care about the poor in Puerto Rico, or do they not matter because they live in a colony not a state? Should I care about them more if Puerto Rico becomes a state, but if Puerto Rico becomes independent, am I supposed to care for their poor less?

We all care more about our family, our neighbors, our fellow Americans and others close to us, but do we have to go all the way to "To Hell with the rest of the world! We want what's due us as Americans and we are not worrying about you poor people across the border, until we damn well get it!"

what is the foreign aid being used for...

Unless you mean weapons systems.

everybody'?"
And that's a simple and profound way to notice how easily we can be manipulated by nativism or "nationalism" into seeing our natural allies as our competitors or worse, as our enemies.

The man is a genius and I think I'm in love with him. lol


:hi:

:shrug:

OMG, it's such a great movie, I just saw it this weekend. Anyway, in that movie, the British government has actually accomplished your wish, and completely closed off the borders. They've also rounded up all immigrants & refugees to send to concentration camps. It's a vision of a fascist police state.

We don't have to worry your president is building some for you whether you are an immigrant or not...

Bushco feeds on fear - we all know this. They are betting that we will be scared enough to trade our freedoms for a feeling of security. This is the basis for the Patriot Act, the illegal spying, etc. etc. They can forment & take advantage of people's fear of "the other" - other races, other cultures, other sexual orientations. That's what drove them to victory in 2004, and that's what allowed them to grap so much executive power so quickly. I find it incredibly ironic that people can bemoan the increasing gov. control while also saying that we need to close our borders. Bushco. would love to close the borders - in fact, they already have. Starting last month, you now need a passport to get into or out of this country. The Real ID act will require us all to carry national IDs & give all our personal information to the federal gov - to verify that we're not illegal immigrants, of course. The new passports will have RFID chips w/our biometric information. All of these measures allow for greater governmental control & less individual privacy. All done, of course, in the name of fighting those terrorists/immigrants/brown people. They have manipulated people's fears to take away their freedom - just as they have manipulated you.

I agree with you concerning the passports and National Id's and phone tapping etc...I don't agree with it...

The question I have for you is: Do you believe that there are or will be terrorists in this country? If you believe that they are what do you think we need to do to prevent them from entering the country or causing an attack? Do you believe that we need to do something about the job situation in this country?

I do believe that one of the main things that need to be done is to fine employers but we still need to have some type of way to control the borders and I do not see what is wrong with knowing who is in this country as much as we can because I don't think we ever will know...

It is a wonderful display of what extremist anti-immigration measures are likely to lead to. Fascism. but yes, I think it is imiportant to get some border control.

You make it sound like there are walls around every country but this one.

Or rather the lack of. We have set an asocial beast loose in our society and the Repugs and the right were the ones that cut the chains that controlled it. As Corporations increase in size and efficiency they become more and more set against the public good. Instead of being a benefit for society they tend to bleed more and more resources from society for their own benefit.

Consider health care. The cost of it is a loathsome burden to corporations. But the benefit of using it to keep the people enthralled is too valuable to let it go. Thus the reason universal health care is reviled by the right. It keeps the serfs in line. What protection was to the feudal era health care is to the corporate era.

The system no longer serves the people. Its serves the new feudal lords. CEOs and Corporations.

but are afraid to say it, they will start crying like a pig under the gate if in some way they believe it is affecting them or their livelihood...

If you can figure out a cost-effective way to "close the border," there's a place for you in the Bush administration. Actually, I take that back--if it's cost-effective, they won't be interested. Let's try again: if you can figure out a way to blow a few hundred billion on a pointless boondoggle that just makes the problem worse while handing truckloads of cash to your personal friends and former business partners, there's a place for you in the Bush administration. As for stopping immigration--bad idea, even if it was actually possible, which it's not. Without immigration there'd be almost no population growth in this country; no population growth equals a shrinking consumer economy, equals a global economic disaster.

Scapegoating is great. Keep up the good work.

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in all kinds of weather, starting before dawn, breathing ag chemicals, all for close to minimum wage. No benefits of course.

Many won't. You'd cause too much trouble and complain too much.

Plus, you wouldn't be able to communicate with your colleagues unless you know Spanish, which can be a problem in some agricultural operations for safety reasons. I worked in the fields as a teenager and I'm speaking from personal experience. Some of those machines, and even tall ladders and such, are not worker friendly.

:hi:

on a Dutch news site, IIRC

Hope you are well sfexpat! I know it's been a rough patch lately. Please know you're one of my "invisible heroes of DU". :pals:

If I can find a link I'll pop it up here...

notion, isn't it? If I find anything, I'll plop it here, too.

:pals:

These doofuses (doofi?) have their Keystone Kop side, but the Brownshirts also started out with their stoopidity on display, not taken seriously.

In the links at the bottom of this, the good people of Vermont ran the ijits out of a town and the Minutemen got lost in the woods and inadvertantly became illegal aliens themselves when they stumbled across the U.S./Canadian border. They were up there (all FOUR of them) to demonstrate that they were NOT being discriminatory JUST for the SOUTHERN border (yeah, right).

Then, their doofiness continued. They were building a 10-miles fence in AZ on private property. Univision had cameras there, did the news professional gig of interviewing the token Hispanic leader of the MM (Al GARZA), and then the camera panned over to a stack of concrete mix, the bags all showing the logo, "MEZCLA CONCRETO MEXICANO" (Mexican Concrete Mix)!!!1 That was PRICELESS!!1

As I say, they would be funny, but...

*******QUOTE*******
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=589

Broken Record
Lou Dobbs' daily 'Broken Borders' CNN segment has focused on immigration for years.

But there's one issue Dobbs just won't take on.

By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

.... For more than two years now, Dobbs has served up a populist approach to immigration on nightly segments of his newscast entitled "Broken Borders." He has relentlessly covered the issue, although hardly from a traditional news perspective -- Dobbs favors clamping down on illegal immigration, and his "reporting" never fails to make that clear. He has covered the same issues, and the same anti-immigration leaders, time after time after time. In recent months, Dobbs has run countless upbeat reports on the "citizen border patrols" that have sprung up around the country since last April's Minuteman Project, a paramilitary effort to seal the Arizona border.

But there's one thing Lou Dobbs won't do. No matter what others report about the movement, Dobbs has failed to present mounting and persistent evidence of anti-Hispanic racism in anti-immigration groups and citizen border patrols. ....


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17104568&BRD=2290&PAG=461&dept_id=569392&rfi=6

Border Patrol chief doesn’t want Minutemen near agents (Laredo, Texas)

LAREDO MORNING TIMES ^ | 08/24/2006 | MIGUEL TIMOSHENKOV

The head of the Border Patrol said Wednesday he doesn’t want members of the Minuteman Project working near his agents when they come to the Laredo area next month. The civilian group, which reports illegal immigrants to immigration authorities, is expected to start patrolling the border in the Laredo area on Sept. 11 and continue through Nov. 7.

Acting Chief Patrol Agent Reynaldo Garza of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Laredo Sector said he can’t prevent the civilians from coming to Laredo, but said they won’t be allowed to interfere with official business. ....

Esquivel said that if U.S. citizens should have any trouble with a member of the Minuteman Project, he or she should call the sheriff’s department or other law enforcement authority.

State Rep. Richard Raymond deplored the group’s plan to come to Laredo.

“They don’t have anything to do with this community,” Raymond said. “Here, we reject the racism they practice.” ....


(Miguel Timoshenkov may be reached at (956) 728-2583 or by e-mail at timo1@lmtonline.com)


http://iapprovethismessiah.com/2006/08/moons-paper-and-minutemen.html

Wonkette: if the Border Patrol is short handed, why not call out the Minutemen? You know, the more-bark-than-bite nationalist “movement” that, according to the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center, Jerry Seper and the Washington Times largely invented out of the ether? Mind you, we’re not complaining. We’re big fans of making mountains out of molehills...

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=635

Anti-Immigration Movement

Newspapers Inflated Minuteman Numbers

, Report Finds

Moon's paper and the Minutemen

The report, "Creating the Minutemen," is based on an American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) analysis of 581 articles and editorials printed in major U.S. newspapers between January 2005 and February 2006. The ACLU has been highly critical of the Minutemen, and ACLU volunteers closely monitored the group.

The first of those articles, "Volunteers Set to Monitor Border Crossings," by Jerry Seper of the hard-right Washington Times, reported that 240 volunteers had signed up. By early March, Seper was reporting that the number of volunteers had "more than tripled," came from every state, and included 16 pilots with aircraft.

During the last two weeks of March 2005, the media hype shifted into overdrive. Fifteen journalists reported the Minuteman Project had signed up "at least 1,000 volunteers." The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin ran a March 23, 2005, article headlined "2,000 volunteers expected for Minuteman Project."


BoingBoing MM-"Wetbacks" http://www.boingboing.net/2005/04/15/snapshots_of_volunte.html


(direct to wetback:

Boston Globe/Vermont: http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2005/10/16/volunteers_get_cold_reception_in_vermont?mode=PF

WashPost/Hate-State: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/30/AR2005103000822.html

Pro-MM / LoneWacko: http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/004214.html

WashPost MM-Go-Home editorial: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/12/AR2005111200954.html

Slave flags: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html


Austin councilman Go Back to MX resolution opposing MM: http://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/12/17minutemen.html

************UNQUOTE**********

:)

:thumbsup:

I didn't say rob,kill and abuse people...

That's so much better! :sarcasm:

:wtf:

or walling out" -- Robert Frost, The Mending Wall

:loveya:

:hug:

what's all dis doo doo 'bout lockin' us in da cuntry? WHO dat say dey gonna lock us in? WHO DAT?!

:D

how much do I send ya? You should really do a store at that site where the DU store is and I can never remember what it is. Because so many of those images would be so cool on human billboards. :)

Hey, I'm gonna use my new pink hoodie tomorrow in a CodePink march on the Golden Gate Bridge. I figure, being with those ladies will pretty much take care of my fear of heights. lol

:hi:

;)

:)

:D

:rofl:

they can have checkpoints for you to come and go...

for a while. That would mean I could not see my family. The idea totally sucks and I hope it never happens.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

why can't you leave, there are checkpoints in the airports and the canadian borders why not the mexican border too...

How many times do I have to repeat that?

I am against it 100%.

:hi:

:hi:

The Canadian-US border is the longest unprotected border in the world. Have you ever been to Mexico? There are more checkpoint there than there are on the US-Canadian border.

intentional disruption, i don't know what is.

If it is not intentional disruption, then its naivete is beyond comprehension.

"closing the borders" and stopping immigration "for a while" is an impossibility. making that idiotic suggestion with no real case behind it is fragging the tent.

now off to "hide this thread' land with ye!

with forcing companies who want to do business here to pay taxes to the max if they can't keep their jobs and manufacturing plants in our country for the benefit of the same people they are trying to get rich on.

Questions about your post.

"we are suppose to be fighting terrorism" What does that statement (even if it were true, which is another debate) have to do with immigration and closing borders? IF "terrorists" were crossing the border in troves to cause terror, perhaps it might have something to it, but I am more terrorized by the people in power right now that anyone immigrating (legally or not).

"someone from another country can come over to this country and receive training and other things that citizens of this country cannot." What are you talking about? What training can an immigrant get, or a terrorist, that we cannot?

"I don't see why this country is not training our own people instead of going to other countries to recruit". Again, I do not understand what you mean. Could you explain further?

"Companies who are shipping jobs out of this country should be taxed to the MAX." I agree that outsourcing companies should be taxed, made to pay more in some way. I don't know the terms (tariff? tax?) but something.

I think the focus should be taken off the "foreign war on terror" and more put on getting our own country fixed up a bunch.

Now, to correlations. I pet my cat, then tripped and fell down. Should I get rid of my cat? After all, I can trip over it and fall down too. Nope. Keep my cat, watch where I am going better.

Back to your cause/effect correlation. I disagree that the problems we are having here are due to immigration, money inequality is due more to the rich/empowered making more off we peons and liking it that way, passing legislation to keep it going, keeping the focus on "them" and fear.

pretending to be Hispanic...Yes, employers are importing people from other countries and training them and paying them less and not just hispanics.

Yes, you should get rid of your cat:hi:

This is different than closing borders because we are supposed to fighting terrorism, or are you saying that these people, middle-easterners, are terrorists? Or are these the people that are being "trained" ("someone from another country can come over to this country and receive training and other things that citizens of this country cannot.")?

Go after people who are importing aliens to pay them crap at shit jobs. That is the problem, not closing borders.

But then my other cat would be bored and trip me.

that the government are labeling as terrorists, I am not saying that they were coming to be trained for jobs the gov was saying they were coming to create another terrorist attack. I am sayin we don't know who is coming across they have also caught Asians and other races and they may have been coming for jobs or other reasons...

Paranoid much? Since when does anyone with any sense take the gubmint at their word regarding the people they are illegally detaining? Does none of it strike you as even just a little bit off, a little repetitive? Here the busheviks are stomping to build their big wall. They need to drum up support, 'cuz lots of people are against it. What do they do? They trot out that old beaten horse and shout to the world "We caught us some terraists sneaking through from Mexico!! See!! We can't tell the difference between the brown people, so let's keep 'em all out! It for our national security!"

For every single fascist and fucked up destruction of our rights these assholes have come up with uses the ol' "national security" argument.

And god forbid there be, *GASP*, ASIANS AND OTHER RACES coming through :sarcasm: . Now you're starting to show your true colors. Distrust anyone who's not white, because you never know, they could be a terraist.

my point is who is coming into this country, if there is another attack what will be the strategy to fight it, if this was any other country they would want to know who or what is coming across their borders. I have given you examples of what has been reported in media reports, and I don't believe everything that is reported, because there is so much that isn't reported. Don't put words in my mouth when it comes to race because, you don't know what I believe and you don't know what race I am or who I trust or distrust. Just because I say close the borders and give examples, of reports of who has come across the border doesn't mean that I am a racists or a bigot. I do however live in a border state...

Were they anything like this?



Race as a reason to close the borders strikes me as being a just a *little* bit nasty. I've not heard you cite one example in this thread of a white person, let alone a white american, being a potential threat to americans. We are in much more danger from white, legal US citizens than any illegal immigrant. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of extremist groups in the US whise members are all american, all white, and all have a serious and dangerous grudge against other americans.

What's funny is that we hear about middle easterners suspected of being terrorists, but anytime it's a white American, we just don't hear much about it. Did you hear ANYTHING in the news about this??

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5350.htm
http://www.thememoryhole.org/terror/tyler-terror.htm

Krar was sentenced to 135 months (11.25 years) in prison and $29,600 in restitution. Can you honestly tell me that you think a Middle Eastern, Asian, Hispanic, or Black american citizen would have gotten off so easily and that the case wouldn't have been reported more widely than the Krar case? Why was this guy not subjected to the same treatment as Jose Padilla (Abdullah al-Muhajir), an american citizen who has a double whammy against him in the form of being of hispanic descent AND a convert to Islam, yet had no bomb making materials or weapons? Why is he being charged with conspiracy to commit murder, a life sentence charge, and Krar (the guy with the big ol' sodium cyanide bomb and the fixins for many other WMD) wasn't? Krar hated the government and wanted to cause great harm to US citizens.

Your arguments don't hold water, and they are becoming increasingly disturbing. You are right, I do not know what race you are or who you trust or distrust, but your singling out of non-white races as being the threat is unsavory, to say the least.

:)

And that means people who are here legally-be they citizens or legal aliens. The best way to stem the influx of illegal aliens is to go after and severely punish Corporations and Businesses who violate the law in the first place.

Turning the clock back to 1907 is simply laughable and a poor argument considering almost everybody on the planet wants to immigrate to the U.S.! :eyes: Sure, this country had open borders to EVERYONE back in 1907. But to do that now is simply unrealistic. What would the finger pointers say if an influx of educated Canadians started coming here clamoring for their well paying jobs? Or Russians, or Japanese or British or Chinese or Indians or Australians? Or how about the poor downtrodden war torn people of Africa? No doubt they would be happy to work at the same pay scale immigrants from Mexico and South America do even though those jobs and pay are not up to the standards we should all expect and deserve.

The U.S. can not and should not save the world until it can make this country EQUAL and FAIR for all it's citizens and legal residents. As the Constitution said: All Men Are Created Equal. Yeah, tell that to the CEO who makes in one day what his employees do in a year. Tell that to Congress who turns a blind eye to the people they are supposed to represent and instead play kiss up with and only really serve the Corporations who finance their campaigns. A Congress who has sent soldiers-many of whom are from poor families-to fight an illegal and unjust war so those Corporations they serve can benefit. This country is so corrupt it ain't funny and until the rotten core is surgically removed, people are going to continue to see their incomes and job security go down the tubes because those responsible don't give a damn about the peoples rights.

Trying to discuss this topic on DU is nearly impossible because accusations of racism are nastily and rudely thrown at those who speak the truth about this problem. That is simply NOT TRUE and is just a straw man argument done by people who have a vested interest-family members from Mexico or South America no doubt-and who don't really give a damn about the people who are here legally and being screwed over on a daily basis by such a corrupt system. How selfish and self serving is that? :thumbsdown:

"That is simply NOT TRUE and is just a straw man argument done by people who have a vested interest-family members from Mexico or South America no doubt-and who don't really give a damn about the people who are here legally and being screwed over on a daily basis by such a corrupt system."

:eyes:

:rofl: :rofl:

DUers slay me.

because if some were really cared for this country they would be concerned about who is coming across our borders or maybe they don't believe that there really is terrorism. I don't care what race they are, I was stating what was in news reports, some may have been white but don't blame me, blame the corrupt media. Maybe they are afraid that there family members may be prevented from entering this country, I can understand that but, some of these comments are utterly ridiculous.

You are correct about trying to discuss this topic with some here,seems to be impossible I don't understand the outrage. I gave a few examples of reports that stated the race of some of the people who have come across the border and because of that they have pinned me as a bigot...I don't get it, there must be some other reason.


This garbage about me being for rights taken away is bullshit... Yes, I am also concerned about jobs,outsourcing and corrupt employers...

"There must be a lot of illegals posting here...."

Are you saying that only "illegals" would disagree with you?

You say you "don't understand the outrage."

You posted an extreme proposition (yes, closing borders is pretty extreme), then followed it up with comments like the above.

You may want to read Robert Frost's words in "Mending Wall" and reflect on them for awhile:

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.'

http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/frost-mending.html

it brings out a lot of outrage and people take it as though it means keeping us in a taking away our rights. I am saying find a way to block the tunnels and help illegals come in legally. The specific ways to do this has to be decided by our congress and senate...

Nothing about addressing blocking tunnels - rather a much larger proposition of closing borders.
Nor do I see anything there about helping people find a documented way of entering the country.
If that is what you meant, why not say it there?

And, yes, I noticed that you didn't address my other question.

Again, I think you should consider who you would be walling in and walling out and what that really means.

... and other logical fallacies. :)

That has controls around it.

It's *illegal* immigration and freaking corporate offshoring that's going to do us in.

if we stopped f#cking with democratic movements in the countries that BushCo et al have designated as their pool of slaves.

/grammar

The vast majority of illegals come from Mexico. They need to fix their country...we can't do it for them.

of a progressive there. The right wingnuts stole it in plain sight with a vast amount of help from BushCo in every area from speech writers to media producers to $.

No one is asking you to do *anything* but stop exporting your facists and see what happens.

This is the same stupid argument about "irresponsible Iraqis". We bomb the shit out of them, we starve them with sanctions for years, we invade and occupy their country for a bunch of LIES, but boy, are THEY irresponsible!

:rofl:


/importing-->exporting

and all they can do is blow each other up. It's really all THEIR fault!

:sarcasm:

I wonder what it will take before we learn that there are predators in charge of our government and that they set us against each other and that there are more of us than there are of them.

If I can understand it, anyone can. :(

:hug::loveya::hug:

:loveya:

I know I get strident on these threads where it would be more useful to be informative.

It's just that I know too many poor people and too many dead people who have been BushCo victims.

They set us against each other so they can rip us all off while we wrangle. It's frustrating.

Maybe I need another walk.

:hug:

But to give the Mexican government a free pass on keeping their populace in poverty is absurd. They have a very respectable GDP...yet they refuse to tax the rich, ensuring an underclass that will always live in misery.

IMO, you need to do some homework as well.

subverted that election?

The populace elected a progressive. BushCo made sure their wingnut was seated.

I don't give a pass to the Mexican wingnuts but they could never have pulled that out without robust BushCo support.

:shrug:

Is that this has been an issue for a long, long time. What did Fox do about the suffering of Mexicans when he was in office? What did those before him do?

You can blame this on the US all day long, but the bottom line is that this is primarily a result of the policies of Mexico, both past and present. And illegal immigration is going to continue to occur unabated until they address the living conditions of their citizens. No matter what political party has power here in the US.

wingnuts like Fox since time immemorial. So when the people elect a progressive that truly wants to build Mexico, our government has a charming way of making sure that winner is not seated.

That is our history. So, no. The bottom line is not primarily a result of the policies of Mexico but of our interest in keeping the Mexican poor poor. I really don't know a way to soften that.

"The bottom line is not primarily a result of the policies of Mexico"

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.

"Poor Mexico. So far from God and so close to the United States."

How does the US benefit by keeping Mexicans in poverty?

The people of the United States don't except indirectly from the contribution to our economy.

American corporate interests benefit. (Multinationals, too, but just to keep it simple, let's say, American.)

And that's why Zinn is right. "This is no national security. There is *their* security and the security of the people."

We confuse these different interests. Halliburton's interest isn't mine and so on.

/oops

They have a Liberal government, but it has one of the highest income inequality indices around. And their tax rate is around 40%.

My point here is that there are no guarantees that the lives of the citizenry are going to improve, simply because the right or left wing candidate wins. Reform has to come from within.

And, it's not so much imho that the rightwingnuts win -- when they actually "win".

It is our deliberate tampering that is wrong. Because that tampering comes straight out of Corporate boardrooms. "Oh, no, we can't HAVE a democracy in Nicaragua! Let's bomb their harbors!" That was the sentiment of our current Secretary of Defense during the time we were actively trying to subvert the most democratic regime Nicaragua had ever had.

There is a thread I put up in the Latino forum that has tried to document these events. People don't leave Latin America because they want to be rock stars in "Westside Story". They leave because their governments are crap and their families are hungry. Their governments are crap because the United States has been tampering with them since there were governments there.

It's not pretty. But, that is the history of US relations with Latin America.

Do we really want fewer immigrants from that region? Then we need to stop our government from obstructing democracy there.

I think not.

I think that was our misunderstanding.

President of Brazil is Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (Lula).

Morales is the President of Boliva.

:)

I agree with alot that you have to say. Just not all of it.

;-)

The Mexicans were hoping for improvement but it wasn't pre-approved by the tax-exempt Heritage Foundation so bye, bye, economic stimulus...

that teeny-tiny little MAJOR issue...

DUers are smart people. When they get good info, they process it.

It's difficult to keep up with the racist barrage from 24/7 disinformation.

Oligarchs like Fox and Calderon in Mexico, who are too busy lining their pockets to be bothered by rampant corruption in the police and military, or to be bothered by the truly squalid conditions of too many of their people (whom I can't blame for wanting to come to the US, really); not to mention all the various right-wing strongmen (Batista, Somoza, Strössner, Pinochet, etc) the US has backed in Central and South America and the Carribbean since the turn of the last century...

I was really curious to see where you live, being you are so concerned and troubled by this, poor little butterfly.

... membership in the KKK and the neo-nazis.

I do believe we need to gain some control of our borders so that we have a clue who is here.

I think a better solution is to go after individuals, businesses and corporations that exploit the immigrant populations.

And that putting in an efficient border crossing policy is important.

But right now, this issue is being used to promote nationalism and stranger fear if not bigotry in our country. And you know how Republican numbers tank when bigotry isn't nursed.

and close the borders...

speaking as an immigrant, I can say with complete confidence that I took an American's job, and a good paying one at that. Perhaps Americans should get off their butts and try a little harder. No one going to hand you the world on a stick just because you were born in this country instead of somewhere else. There's a saying that this country was built on immigration... well, maybe it had to be because no one else wanted to work.

:)

:freak:

1. immigrants take low paying jobs that Americans won't do anymore or can't do because union labor has been eviscerated.. and it took a pretty broad base of support to kill organized labor, and people shouldn't forget that. labor died because the majority of people here wanted it dead so that they could pay less for the crap they wanted to buy

2. immigrants take high paying jobs that Americans can't do anymore because the eduation system is getting more and more broken due to the incredible disparities between wealth and poverty. There is a shrinking middle class trying to make a go of it in an ocean of people who are Young Earth Creationists, or who disbelieve in basic scientific ideas.

Neither of those two points is the fault of the people who are immigrating to the US. These are home-grown problems.

3. The USA = an Immigrant Nation. Always has been. Always will be. If people don't like that, then maybe *they* should be the ones who leave.

what you are saying is I got mine now go get yours, now its time to close the borders...

provided a person isn't a felon, provided that person isn't carrying an infectious disease, or simple minded, provided they are literate in at least one human language, provided they are not moving here to start an armed revolt.... (which were the rules before 1924)

historically, that's what this nation is. It's a country of immigrants. So much so that if you're not comfortable around immigrants, then maybe you should be the one leaving. This is America and it is as much mine as yours.

I said ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS,but in the meantime we should close the borders for a while...For your information I am not uncomfortable around immigrants I live,work,play and worship with them everyday...

The system is so profoundly broken that the term is meaningless. It's a sham, a degrading, dehumanizing sham. I went through it and I know. And I'm a white guy from Canada. I cannot even begin to imagine what it was like for anyone else. In my opinion, there are no illegal immigrants just new Americans who are being discriminated against based on race, ethnicity or national origin.

until the government knows who is here...

moronic Americans who don't deserve to live here or who have betrayed the ideals of the nation back to whatever part of the world their ancestors came from. We could send Bill O'Reilly back to Ireland... do you see where I'm heading with this one?

:hi:

A country is something that a person should live in by choice.

I don't agree with all the points of the OP, because my own mother and her entire family immigrated here in the 1970s from South America. I don't think legal immigration is a problem--its illegal immigration that is hurting many blue collar workers.

I also think our government displays hypocrisy when we speak of a war on terror yet our borders on the North and South are wide open.

Furthermore, these are not troll thoughts. These are the thoughts of many middle class American Democrats who are struggling to get by.

when we and they are both being victimized?

Maybe middle class American Democrats should get a clue as to why it happens that the countries we've declared to be in our "sphere of influence" just happen to keep electing progressives that don't get seated and thus leaving their populations no choice but to go looking for any way at all to feed their family.

Geezus.

I'm being victimized twice? Once by my government and the coporations, and then again by having to pay for the victimized illegal immigrants?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

What benefit do I get from them being here? I thought we had already established that the only ones who benefit are the coporations?

are only traumatized once?

they were "traumatized" or if in fact they were at all. That's not my point.

It amazes me how so many here can turn a blind eye to the ecomonic, environmental and human impacts of illegal immigration...all because it's a handy hammer to bash the opposition party with.

Absolutely amazes.

They put in more than they can ever take out.

I have know many undocumented workers. They aren't an abstrction to me. They are some of the best people I've ever met.

That's all.

I am saying close the borders until we get a handle on things and find out who is here if we can.

Legal immigration as well - for the first time in our entire history.

until those we elected can come up with some stricter laws...

End - halt; tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. The immigration laws are already incredibly strict, which most people do not realize. It is virtually impossible for most people to become a legal resident of the US, which is why so many come illegally. I truly do not get people who are calling for an end to legal immigration - that's one way to see illegal immigration rates rise astronomically.

I am not saying end immigration...

you're not making any sense, right? Yeah, it's fun to repeat that Lou Dobbs catch-phrase - "close the borders!" Closing the borders means ending legal immigration into this country. How can you want to close the borders, want to halt immigration, & then say you don't want to end legal immigration? Or maybe you only want to end legal immigration of Mexicans? Or "halt" immigration w/o stopping it? :crazy: I can't tell anymore. My head hurts. It seems like you're mindlessly repeating catch-phrases & rants you've heard somewhere else w/o really considering what those phrases mean.

Ditto for H1Bs.

I fear going to stores these days because of the surprisingly rapid increase in immigrants or 'guest workers'. I know they are not terrorists, but that doesn't stop me from worrying - the media alone cites examples often enough each week as to how security isn't good enough... and somebody may damn well be a terrorist and that would be tragic. Damn tragic.

May the future be a good one.

If you want people to work in America then you pay them the wages that the American market demands.

You need therapy. Really. I've read many of your xenophobic posts in the past and wondered, but I think you're now at the stage where you need professional help.

except that I'm being sarcastic.

If you are afraid of going to stores because there may be an immigrant there and he may be a terrorist, you may have PTSD or you may be approaching agoraphobia. (Agoraphobia literally means fear of the market, too!)

They'd never lie or play on our fears!

I will take this to heart in my daily life. Especially the fighting terrorism.

That will make it so that Americans aren't competing with immigrants who will work illegally for below minimum wage. But cutting off immigration completely is pointless and frankly not a good idea. This is a land of immigrants and our culture is entirely based on accepting people from other cultures.

Give a green card to anyone who wants one. Then everyone will *have* to be paid on the same scale. If the American worker is so good, then they'll beat out green card holders for the jobs.

PS fine the big companies $1 million just for the heck of it. I'm sure they've done somethign to deserve it.

I guess I'm old fashioned-- I happen to think that people, regardless of where they were born, are much more important than imaginary red and black lines on a map.

I guess that means I must be un-American or some such nonsense. But at the end, when I stand in judgment, I don't think God will was His finger at me and say, "Well... you *could've* come on in, but you put nation before humanity..."

:) Well said.

:)

You must be listening to the right-wing radio guys who act as if immigrants get all kinds of freebies that Americans have to pay for.

Not true, unless they have official refugee status, and even there, their benefits stop after 3 months, which isn't much, if you think of yourself going to a country with a totally different culture where you don't speak the language and have no job skills that match the job market in your new country. (The situation that a lot of the Somali and Hmong refugees found themselves in.)

I'm a Texan, so live in a state that borders with Mexico. I've been homeless and never have I been out of poverty. I am also unemployed. Right wingers have been doing the divide and conquer well and it seems to have worked on the OP. Mexicans are taking nothing from me. I am totally supportive of the immigrants.

I have illegal immigrant friends. They DO not get any hand-outs and freebies unless you call taking their tiny sick baby to the emergency room and not being turned away a freebie. I don't. I call that a human necessity.

All the Mexicans I know do work most white-assed sissies wouldn't do if they were offered the damned job or were starving to death.

...and there is no way to close the borders anyway. It's impossible. ...and I'm glad.
Lee

I didn't know we were being overrun by illegal Canadians. :rofl:
Lee

The largest group of illegals is from Mexico so excuuuuuuuse me if I thought that's who you referring to. We only border on two countries, Mexico and Canada and we have a wet foot, dry foot policy with Cubans. The moment their foot touches dry soil, they are no longer illegal. So, you were talking about ?????
Lee

your president has made an agreement where both countries will be a part of the United States, so I guess we won't have to close the borders after all...As soon as Castro dies we will all be interconnected...

**your president has made an agreement where both countries will be a part of the United States, so I guess we won't have to close the borders after all...As soon as Castro dies we will all be interconnected...**


COOL!! Excellent.

I'm not a xenophobe so this just isn't going to play, for me. I have RL friends from just about every country in the world. My girlfriend works in the graduate department of computer and electrical engineering at The University of Texas. 49% of those grad. students in that department are International students. We have friends from Pakistan, Iran, India, Korea, etc. We have UK friends, Russian friends, Cypriots, Greeks, Turkish friends, etc. I can't think of a country we don't have friends from. ...and we are neighbors to Mexico.

Other cultures enrich us a lot more than that take from us. ...and immigration, that's how all of us got here except the Mexicans and Native Americans.

Quit cloaking your xenophobia under high-mindedness because it's not.
Lee

At the moment my president who is Kerry doesn't have any power to do anything alone, concerning that matter...No friends from Africa... When you say enrich us, who is the us isn't this a country of all cultures...

...and you've fallen for the most devisive, divide and conquer rhetoric of the RW. You are a xenophobe. You will not convince me otherwise. Sorry.
Lee

who is the us...