New Tape: Bin Laden asking why Dems haven't stopped the war !

That's what I want to know too.

But - how will this effect the election. Will Repigs use
this against us? Like we are Bin Laden lovers or what?

That tape is OLD, OLD, OLD, unless bin Laden has access to a Wayback machine.

They have, of course, told us what he's saying.

Yeah, right.

and they have completely invented what he is saying.

I certainly can appreciate that others do not, and I respect many of the DUers who view this very differently than I do. But I believe it is real.

I think it is similar to the business about a dyed beard. People in the US tend to measure and judge things by western standards. However, people from a very different culture -- such as a Muslim in the Middle East -- lives by different measures and standards.

Thus, much like the dyed beard is easily understood by anyone who takes 5 minutes to consider possibilities other than the "Just for Men" jokes (many of which were indeed funny), the issues of time are no mystery. First, and perhaps most obvious, would be that there are forces looking to kill him. Second, the best books on him (by Scheuer and Bergen) indicate that he is working on a very different schedule than our society is.

My understanding, from what I have read of bin Laden, he is intelligent and well aware of the larger geopolitical landscape and the part the US and the bush administration plays in it. If my understanding is correct, the timing of these videos, this one and the one shortly before the 2004 elections do not make sense to me in terms of what is to be gained by the timing versus the way in which these videos are used by the bush admin to ratchet up the fear factor to his own benefit.

What do you see as the perceived gain by bin Laden by this video coming out at this time?

people like Bush and Cheney have caused our country to be disrespected and dispised by many people around the globe. In the Muslim world, the administration is hated, which provides an increasing number of people who will either be a participant or supporter of type of radical Islam that Usama bin Laden is invested in.

He also follows the tradition of giving a warning, and a request that his identified enemies convert to Islam, before engaging in any offensive actions.

I also think it is probable, based on what I've read from Bergen and Scheuer, that he does wish that the USA would leave the Middle East. Scheuer has listed the six complaints that Usama bin Laden has made repeatedly over many years:

-- That the US policy towards Israel is unfair to Palistinians
-- That US and other western troops occupy the Arabian Penninsula
-- The US occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq
-- US support for countries like Russia and China, who oppress their Muslim militants
-- The US exploits Arab oil, keeping prices low
-- The US supports apostate, corrupt governments in Muslim lands.

I understand the underpinnings of his beliefs, what I cannot, as yet, reconcile is that the timing of his videos help the bush admin at times when help is needed. bin Laden is, no doubt, aware of the political landscape in the US, the mounting support for the US leaving Iraq and that can only happen with a change in government that goes well beyond the end of bush's Presidency. Releasing this video at the time there is a crucial debate about Iraq about to take place and releasing the video shortly before the 2004 election at a time when it could and did help bush does not make sense in how this would help bin Laden further his goals.

I guess my question, in a nutshell, is why now, why shortly before the 2004 election, what is/was the gain?

his intent in 2004 was to increase Bush's chances against Kerry. I do not see how the new tape could be viewed as helping the administration or conservative republicans in Washington in any significant way.

in Congress regarding whether to keep the troops in Iraq or to begin withdrawing them? If what has been reported is accurate, Iraq is specifically mentioned in his message which the WH is already using to strengthen the message that they must stay in Iraq. At the very least, the specific mention of Iraq at this time has given those who are pushing for the troops to remain ammunition to use during the crucial debate. His video at this time, at the very least, is useful propaganda for bush and the WH as opposed to being something that would further reduce his credibility.

To your point as to his intent in 2004 was to increase bush's chances against Kerry, how would bush being re-elected help him achieve his goal of removing the US and it's influence from the Middle East? It has done the opposite, imo.

We agree as to bin Laden's goals which you iterated in your first response, what I am unable to see is how these videos being released in the timing that they have help him achieve those goals and not delay that achievement.

come to mind. First, his history of leadership in Afghanistan in the effort to remove the Soviet Union showed a person who was not gifted in the military arts. He was/is charismatic, and served as an inspiration for the group of people he was involved with, but he was viewed by other leaders as brave but prone to miscalculations. If we apply that same general description to more recent events (and I want to emphasis that brave does not equal "good"), then we could conclude that he has made several important miscalculations in the past 7 years.

Bergen's book supports this idea. I'm reminded of one of the last interviews I did with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman, who also said that bin Laden had miscalculated: he thought that he could beat Bush, who he viewed as a weak "puppet" for US oil interests. He had certainly been aware of a OVP/OSP plan to increase US military forces in the Middle East (the idea of invading Iraq was on the table from January 2001 on, according to former administration officials), and forces connected to him struck first.

The US reaction was and is unfocused: those who were involved in the 9/11 attacks were primarily Saudi Arabians, and some of the planning certaintly was undertaken in remote parts of Afghanistan. But the response of Ayman al-Zawahiri, quoted on page xxi of Scheuer's second book, is telling: "We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw, they will lose everything, and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death."

The comments about the democrats may be aimed at the rest of the world community, as much as at US citizens. I assume much of the human family had hopes that the newly elected democratic-controlled congress would attempt to stop the war of occupation in Iraq. I think that, without giving any thought to bin Laden, much of the world has noticed that the opposite has happened -- the democratic congress has given Bush all the money he has asked for to allow his "surge" in the occupation of Iraq.

We also are hearing more and more about the potential US aggression against Iran. I assume that this means "limited" air strikes, and not any attempts to occupy it on the ground. I would think that UbL is also hearing the same things, and I would think that this new message could be best viewed in that context.

I am not "sold" on either position, it is bin Laden or it is not, although I am still leaning slightly more to the not 'side'. You have given me much to ponder in your response and I thank you for that.

Garbage who hang on bush and rove's every word and chicanery also believe bin laden. Anything wrong with that picture? At least to true American Patriots.

Absolutely loves Noam Chomsky...and any anti war former official out there...HE IS A CLOSETED (CAVED?) GAY MAN...must be!!!!

not exactly democracy...but better than what you're offering.

:sarcasm:

"So in answer to the question about the causes of the Democrats' failure to stop the war, I say: they are the same reasons which led to the failure of former President Kennedy to stop the Vietnam war. Those with most power and influence are those with the most capital. And since the democratic system permits major corporations to back candidates, be they presidential or congressional, there shouldn't be any cause for astonishment - and there isn't any - in the Democrats' failure to stop the war. And you're the ones who have the saying which goes "Money talks." And I tell you: after the failure of your representatives in the Democratic Party to implement your desire to stop the war, you can still carry anti-war placards and spread out in the streets of major cities, then go back to your homes, but that will be of no use and will lead to the prolonging of the war."

If anything, this sounds a little Naderite to me. Our best response to all this is lower down in the thread: the bottom line is, WHY hasn't Bush and his people captured bin Laden after all this time?

that's got to be a weird trio of philopsohies to try to bring together if your writing Bushie Propaganda.

drive Democratic voters away from the Democratic Party in '08. We need to stick together. Let me say that I would proudly vote for John Edwards himself, Mr. House-Haircut-Hedgefund-(and-mandatory-Healthcare), if by some random disruption in the time-space continuum, he wins the nomination. And I pray that everyone else will vote for Hillary when the time comes!

is that this motherfucker is still "out there" making fucking videos BECAUSE BUSH CAN'T FIND HIM!

george bush: keeping you afraid of the biggest terrorist in the world instead of capturing him

and likes us hearing from him from time to time.

Thank you.

"Bush Tells Barnes Capturing Bin Laden Is ‘Not A Top Priority Use of American Resources’"

"Weekly Standard editor Fred Barnes appeared on Fox this morning to discuss his recent meeting with President Bush in the Oval Office. The key takeaway for Barnes was that “bin Laden doesn’t fit with the administration’s strategy for combating terrorism.” Barnes said that Bush told him capturing bin Laden is “not a top priority use of American resources.” Watch it."
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/14/barnes-osama/

"i don't know where he is and i really don't care"

everything else under the watch of the corporatemediawhores ..they fuck it up beyond all recall.

I would be taunting the dog-crap out of Bush if I were him... Na-na-na-na-na you can't catch me....

people into believing this is all manufactured. If B* people put this together - they wouldn't have thought of something like that, huh. Calling attention to their own failures.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1756386&mesg_id=1756386


Bin Laden has a dye job and still has the same clothes as in the 2004 video....

When I saw the black bushy beard, I did a double take myself....

Hard to believe he's hitting the Grecian Formula in the cave. I don't think that's him.

a trick of the light, maybe the actual video will look different anyway. We'll have a better idea soon enough.

It tells us it has been dyed, and I find that strange...



Isn't it wonderful that Osama has time to dye his beard and yet Bush still can't find him? :sarcasm:

please stand up.

:shrug:

I trust the Bush administration and its GOP operatives about as much as I trust Bin Laden - zero.

THEY are just leaking a few things. Not even Al Qadea has posted the actual tape yet. How stupidly do we have to be led by the nose no matter how we credit the whole tape/Bin Laden business anyway?

ones), would they speak up and say, "hey this is bullshit, we didn't do no stinkin tape."

i'm sorry -- but the republick party will accuse the dems of pushing them when they stub their toes.

there is no angle -- no perspective that the republick party won't try to paste on the democratic party.

the democratic party MUST LEARN not to A} play the republick party game -- and B} exact a very severe price when they do.

the best defense will always be a good offense.

and repeat over and over - why hasn't Bush caught bin laden???

Whatever the MIHOP and LIHOP theories and whatever the revelations they are sitting on, the first, last and only response to anything in the universe, real or imagined, is to exploit it for political advantage and power to the end of reaping more material advantages and more power. This is the clearest, most evident posture and performance that has not been clearly shown to the American people, that these public servants are the most dedicated in history toward using their office in response to every single solitary situation only to their own benefit and agenda- and the less "collateral" service to duty and the people the better.

and campaign finance reform "money talks". He is the pundit of our times. Who knew? (laughing while crying..have we bombed Iran yet)

Never got it though. :(

Maybe it was OBL's fault?

calls on everyone to embrace Islam, if they want to go to heaven. Bizarre references to specific authors and politicians. He even discusses Global Warming and Kyoto.

Says America is like Germany during WWII.

History lesson on Brezhnev and Afghanistan. Discussion of Vietnam, and making the same mistakes.

Pledges to continue attacks against Americans, and predicts the collapse of the "American Empire."

i call bullshit on that.

or death.

Will Pitt left. And now Pitt's back the same day-coincidence?

:+

Knocking the Democrats on cue. :boring:

Probably wants a raise...

Even more evidence that this was fabricated by the ReThugs.

Why in the hell would OBL give a flying fuck what the Democrats are doing to stop the war? Doesn't he like the occupation? Isn't it giving AQ endless opportunities to blow up Americans? Who knew he even cared enough to distinguish between the political parties in the Land of the Great Satan.

It's almost tailor-made for an argument that Democrats fighting to end the Iraq occupation are....doing the bidding of the world's #1 terrorist. Hmmmm.

This smells. Bad.

that's why he gives a flying fuck. He's just like the rest of the world who thought once the Dems got in - we would get out of Iraq.

Isn't it funny how OBL takes DU's talking points? OBL isn't Bush's enemy, we are.

If Osama is still alive then why the hell haven't they caught him yet?

Oct. 7, 2001



Sept. 7, 2007





I think not.

let's kill em all and turn their countries into glass topped parking lots, :sarcasm:

let's kill em all and turn their countries into glass topped parking lots, :sarcasm:

really....

My god, they have just jumped the shark on credibity.

Either it is a bad translation or an inside job

(At this point I am inclined to say, psy ops)

Whether it's for Bushler himself, our next Emperor ThomBush, or Loyal Bushie Employee Bin laden (if he's actually still alive and they just aren't using doubles), they sure know how to use gestalt-based propaganda to give people "uneasy felings" that never touch the conscious mind and therefore cannot be defended against.

Yes, this latest Bush-Bin Laden tape is a masterpiece of Bushie Propaganda Writing.

These guys are GOOD!

Giving Osama Bin Laden the moral high ground. He can point to the Dems craven politics as just another example of the anti-democratic and immoral USA.

Bush has already destroyed the credibility of the federal government for a generation. Now he's working hard towards undermining all global sympathy for US policy goals.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

:banghead:

See, a vote for stopping the war is a vote for Osama. :sarcasm:

But you arer right, to the Imperial Subjects of Amerika, who have the attention span and critical thinking skills of a goldfish, it is 100% real and the propaganda has already done it's work.

Of course the Kinder and Gentler Nazis will ue it against us...that's why they wrote it, directed it, found a new Double to star in it, and released it synergistically with the Betrayus "Report" (both Bush Employees giving their "reports" in the same week, reminds me of those Burger King commercials for the latest movie to come out.

Imperial Hubris : Why the West Is Losing the ...

by Michael Scheuer

Scheuer, ex CIA wqas the Head of the Osama bin Laden Anti-Terrorist Task Force. He is an interesting man. I suspect that he is a Repug but a highy critical one of the Busholini Regime's handling of al Q & the Illegal Iraq Invasion & Occupation.