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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:17 PM
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Torture Videos Are So Offensive
I read Eric Fair’s “An Iraq Interrogator’s Nightmare” (from the DU home page, posted by kpete) with great interest. Of all the horrendous crimes of the Bush administration, its torture and other abuse of the human rights of its prisoners are the ones that horrify me the most. By comparison, the attack on Valorie Plame and leaking of her CIA status, or the electronic warrantless spying on untold thousands or millions of American citizens, grave acts of treason though they may be, are of much less concern to me. To me, it is the torture of our prisoners that more than anything else shows the true character of George W. Bush and his administration – and therefore portends what could happen to our country and the world if he is not stopped. And by the same token (it should go without saying), I find the absence of widespread outrage over this, in Congress and among the American people, to be terribly disturbing. All of this demands explanation.

My reaction to Eric Fair as a person, upon reading his confession, was similar to that of most DUers who responded to kpete’s post. In my heart, I believe in forgiveness whenever a person shows sincere remorse for what they’ve done – not remorse for being caught, but for what they’ve done. It seems obvious to me that Eric Fair feels a great deal of remorse for whatever role he played in the torture of our Iraqi prisoners. There is no point in our criticizing his actions because he has said everything that needs to be said about them:

I failed to disobey a meritless order, I failed to protect a prisoner in my custody, and I failed to uphold the standards of human decency. Instead, I intimidated, degraded and humiliated a man who could not defend himself. I compromised my values. I will never forgive myself.

Why did he do it? Though he doesn’t discuss this in his article, my guess is that he knew it was wrong at the time (at some level in his soul), but at that time he didn’t have the courage either to openly admit it to himself or to disobey his orders. Make no mistake about it – that would have taken courage. He has now shown a good deal of courage in writing his article, and even more courage in having it published in a major newspaper. How many others who have played similar roles – and it seems highly likely that there are hundreds of them working for the U.S. military at this moment – have done the same? If anything will stop our “leaders” from continuing their barbaric practices it will be public exposure – of the type that Eric Fair’s article accomplished. He should be proud of that accomplishment.

At least one poster to the thread expressed the wish that Fair should spend a long time in prison for what he did. I understand that sentiment, but I don’t feel that way. I’m sure that Fair’s own self incrimination has been terribly painful to him. And beyond that, as he notes in his article, “I rarely sleep through the night without a visit from this man”. I think he’s been punished enough. I very much hope that he can forgive himself.


Why is this happening?

I have asked myself over and over again why this is happening, and in my efforts to figure it out, I have written and posted many threads on DU about it. Our country was founded upon our Declaration of Independence, which says that everyone has the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our Constitution provides the legal foundation for protection of those rights, and as such it constitutes a great step forward for humankind and has served as a model for numerous other nations of the world. How can this be happening here?

It has been noted over and over again that our abuse of prisoners does us no good whatsoever. Little or no intelligence of any use is acquired by those means. It exposes our own soldiers to the grave risk of similar abuse. Our barbaric behavior serves only to destroy our reputation among the nations of the world and to help greatly in the recruitment of anti-American terrorists. And there is a wealth of evidence that most of our prisoners are innocent of any significant wrong doing. Thus I have so often wondered why this continues to go on and on.

The way I now see it, there are three levels of responsibility: At the lowest level of responsibility are men like Eric Fair, who did what they did simply because they lacked the courage to challenge their military superiors.

A higher level of complicity has been described by former U.S. Army Specialist Tony Lagouranis in an interview with Amy Goodman. This type of complicity involves ambitious people who recognize that one good way to “get ahead” in today’s military is to satisfy one’s military superiors, no matter how repugnant. Lagouranis explains:

They wanted numbers. They wanted numbers of terrorists apprehended… so they could brief that to the general…. They were trying to prove that there were a lot of foreign fighters in Fallujah… Very few of them had foreign I.Ds. There were people working with me who would, in an effort to sort of cook the books, you know…

And at the highest level of complicity we have the hardened criminals, including unfortunately – and this has to be said – the leaders of our country under whom all this takes place.


What motivates the torturers?

Like I said, I’ve asked myself this question over and over again. But today I read an article in The Nation that lit a light bulb in my head. The article is called “Bloggers Against Torture”, by Negar Azimi. It isn’t specifically about our country – it is about the barbaric and routine torture that takes place in Egypt today, at the hands of the Egyptian government. Nobody wants to think of their own government in that kind of light. And out of denial, to maintain a sort of comfort zone, most Americans don’t even think about it. After all, it can’t happen to them, right? As our fearless leaders tell us, our government must do what it does because we are facing a fearsome enemy, and they have to do whatever they need to do to protect us.

But Azimi’s article hit me right between the eyes, and with his words he made me recognize the motivations of my own government. The article begins by describing the torture of a young Egyptian bus driver, Emad al-Kabir, who had been jailed for trying to “break up a scuffle between police officers and his cousin”. Describing the culture of torture in Egypt today, Azimi explains:

Not only are torture and abuse tolerated; in the security services violence is broadly valued as a sign of authority, strength, bravado. It is not uncommon for lower level officers to get promotions for such theatrics. In fact, the original video of al-kabir appears to have circulated for months … among police officers and taxi drivers, Abu Ghraib style, before it was leaked to the public. The images were likely shared for bragging purposes – and to serve as a sort of warning to those who would dare to tread on police turf, as al-Kabir had.

Seymour Hersh, in his investigation of U.S. prisoner abuse and torture, had something similar to say about the Bush administration, but using fewer and less offensive words, as related to him by a senior U.S. Army officer:

“No one in the Bush Administration would get far if he was viewed as soft, in any way, on suspected Al Qaeda terrorism.” Yet despite all this, “One consistent theme has been a lack of timely and reliable intelligence about the other side.”

Both Azimi’s and Hersh’s descriptions say the same thing in different ways. What they describe can be summed up in one word – EVIL.

It hasn’t yet gone far enough here to be considered the equivalent (in terms of frequency) of the torture that routinely goes on in Egypt and some other countries. But you can be sure that that isn’t because of any moral restraints on the part of the Bush/Cheney regime. It’s because Americans have a fairly long history of living under democracy and the rule of law, and therefore there are some limits as to what they will tolerate.

Yet … I have to say that I find the lack of outrage over this matter in our country to be extremely disappointing – and scary. Are we as a nation so comfortable with our lives that comfort has come to mean so much that we have become apathetic about crimes against humanity? Is racism the explanation?


Some thoughts on torture videos

I have always avoided like the plague any motion picture that depicts torture. I just can’t stomach such things. I believe that I am a very normal person in that respect. Most if not all normal human beings are revolted by the sight of the torture of any living being, especially another human. It is built into our genetics, and it is also a prominent part of our moral code.

Then why are Americans so apathetic about this? In part, at least, it is explained by denial. Americans don’t want to believe that their government does this kind of stuff, our corporate news media doesn’t talk about it much, and we just don’t want to think about it. Senator Richard Durbin first heard the details of the Bush/Cheney torture practices from an FBI agent. He was shocked, and he thought that this would be of interest to the United States Senate, so he discussed it on the floor of the United States Senate. Silly him. Not only was it of small interest to most of our Senators, but Durbin himself was considered the guilty one, not the perpetrators of torture, because he was the one who chose to offend everyone by talking about it.

One thing however that cuts through the denial is graphic descriptions of torture. That, in fact, is what Azimi’s article is mostly about. Bloggers in Egypt have been creating quite a stir by circulating videos of government sponsored torture on the internet. They have created outrage that has actually resulted in some holding of the torturers accountable for their acts. Not much, but it’s a start.

Americans need to actually see this stuff. That would shake most of them out of their apathy. In the absence of actual visual evidence, discussion of such things is mostly dismissed as the paranoia of “conspiracy theorists”. Torture videos are extremely offensive. But Americans need to be offended about what is going on in their country – and in their name. The pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib shook things up a bit and garnered some attention to this issue. But they were soon mostly forgotten, as our “leaders” explained them away as being the result of “a few bad apples.” Americans need to see much more of this kind of thing. That is the job of our news media. Since our corporate news media has mostly abrogated its responsibility in this regard, the task falls to alternative news media sources.

We cannot afford to be silent or mince words on this issue. We need people to tell it like it is. Americans need to put aside perceptions of their government as they wish to see it, and instead see their government as it really is. People like Richard Durbin and Seymour Hersh and Eric Fair are needed in our country more than ever, to facilitate that process.

Most of all, Americans need to consider what is the difference between George W. Bush and his partners in crime, compared to sadistic and abusive prison officials or compared to ordinary violent criminals? The only difference that I can think of is that Bush and his gang are far more dangerous than the others because they have the power to hurt far more people.
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nicely written,
and I share your sentiments. I get the sense that things are slowly turning against bushco and his brand of evil. Only time will tell and we must help that happen. K&R
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you jimshoes -- I sure hope you're right about that
Although most Americans seem to think things are reasonably ok, notwithstanding Bush's 30% approval ratings, I believe that we are now going through one of the most dangerous times in American history. But this time the threat is internal, and most people are oblivious to how bad it is.

If people continue to refuse to see it before we get into a Third World War I'm afraid it will be too late.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. First they came for the Muslims ...
And they were held indefinitely in the Bush/Cheney prisons and often torture centers, without being charged with a crime, without access to family or counsel, without having a chance to confront their accusers and defend themselves.

But most Americans weren't Muslim, so....
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. And maybe they deserved it. then they came for my neighbor...
(continue please)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Niemoller's poem
Here's the whole poem, which reminds me very much of what's going on in our country today:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Thanks, I could NOT remember the name
I searched different times and must have missed that side of the barn!
:toast:
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mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. then they came for
Edited on Sun Feb-11-07 05:35 PM by mix
the



liberals (dinesh d'souza)
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Gwerlain Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well thought...
and well written. K&R.
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Australian Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why is this happening?
I think the US funded genocide and US company stealing the victim's gold and copper would qualify as a worse human rights violation;
but the abuse of prisoners for years is certainly the most public and well known activity of George Bush and the people supporting him.

I think the reason the neo-conservative coalition of companies and politicians is doing it, is because they needed a replacement for the Soviet Union. They needed another great global 'cause' to allow the CIA to continue its foreign policy which the Ford Foundation established in the 1950s.

Without a global 'war' of some kind, the US public MIGHT one day notice things like the US colonization and mining of West Papua, and might even notice the US funding of the TNI genocide aganst the West Papuan people. That is one example; of cause West Papua has for nearly fifty years been the central keystone to US covert foreign and economic policy - what the May Day protestors call "globalization".

It is just rather funny that George Bush has to provide political support of, and US funding of a pro-jihad Islamic military at the SAME time that he is telling the US public that he is at "war" against terrorism.

America is funny;
I'd be laughing excepting for the fact that my friends are being killed by Mr Bush's TNI friends so that your Freeport McMoRan company can keep stealing their gold & copper for the benefit of US shareholders.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thank you for pointing out the genocide in West Papau
http://fandom.net/

Our corporate news media doesn't give us a lot of information that Americans need to have.

Can you explain what you mean by: "West Papua has for nearly fifty years been the central keystone to US covert foreign and economic policy - what the May Day protestors call 'globalization'"?


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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. Don't like torture videos? Don't watch 24!
And on another subject, I was reading a book entitled "Jackboot" that talked about the Third Reich's troops. It may seem incredible, but there were very few soldiers who actually tortured and killed prisoners. Those were special divisions of men, selected for that purpose, that were qualified and comfortable with those operations. The regular army, the Wehrmacht, had nothing but contempt for those men.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. The title for my post was facetious
I note towards the end of my OP that I think that visualization of the torture being carried out by our government will we the only way to create the widespread outrage necessary to combat it.

I think I made a mistake by doing that (the facetious title), in that it has a tendency to create the wrong impression.

I was aware that many in the Wehrmacht had contempt for the Nazis. They even attempted to assassinate Hitler a couple of times -- for which many paid with their lives. I'm not sure, though, what percentage of regular soldiers felt that way.

It may be that the Bush administration is less concerned about who they have participating in torture than Hitler was. That would be a bad move for him, as it results in people such as Eric Fair coming forward to complain about and publicize it.
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localroger Donating Member (663 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
9. Repulsed or fascinated?
I suspect a lot of people aren't like you, TFC. People go to Mel Gibson's movies, from Bravehart to Passion of the Christ. It's almost a given that a wax museum has to have a torture chamber. And the central symbol of the most prominent religion in our culture is a torture device, the central event the torture to death of its founder.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Which makes it interesting...
that the subject of the real and current torture overseen by US government should be taboo
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yes -- One of the greatest failures of our corporate media
is their failure to cover this issue. We need a thorough overhaul of our national news media
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. No doubt a lot of people aren't like me in that regard
What I said was "Most if not all normal human beings are revolted by the sight of the torture of any living being". I guess it depends on one's definition of 'normal', but in my definition of the word, normal people are revolted by the sight of torture. Do you not agree?

Psychiatrists would call anyone who enjoys inflicting pain on other people a "sadist". Is it possible to enjoy watching severe pain and suffering but not enjoy actually inflicting it? I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect that the answer is no.

Of course, it is possible to be revolted by sights of torture and to be fascinated by it at the same time. In fact, I would say that I am fascinated by the subject -- as I have read a good deal about it -- though I am purely revolted by the sight of it.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. Refreshing. The absence of conscience
is the fuel of tyranny. Make no mistake, tyranny is alive and well here and acceptance of torture is a tell tell sign.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's exactly the way I feel about it
Torture and the acceptance of torture are the number 1 signs of impending tyranny in our country today.

And it is also of note, I believe, that racism play an important role in the acceptance of torture:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2269258
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. Torture quotes
Our enemies didn't adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every one of us -- every single one of us -- knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them.
- John McCain, Republican US Senator

The civilized have created the wretched, quite coldly and deliberately, and do not intend to change the status quo; are responsible for their slaughter and enslavement; rain down bombs on defenseless children whenever and wherever they decide that their 'vital interests' are menaced, and think nothing of torturing a man to death: these people are not to be taken seriously when they speak of the 'sanctity' of human life, or the 'conscience' of the civilized world.
- James Baldwin, From chapter one of "The Devil Finds Work" (orig. pub. 1976)

The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons.
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky (1821-1881),

Man torturing man is a fiend beyond description. You turn a corner in the dark and there he is. You congeal into a bundle of inanimate fear. You become the very soul of anesthesia. But there is no escaping him. It is your turn now...
-Henry Miller

Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.
- James Anthony Froude

There is no telling to what extremes of cruelty and ruthlessness a man will go when he is freed from the fears, hesitations, doubts and the vague stirrings of decency that go with individual judgement. When we lose our individual independence in the corporateness of a mass movement, we find a new freedom- freedom to hate, bully, lie, torture, murder and betray without shame and remorse. Herein undoubtedly lies part of the attractiveness of a mass movement.
- Eric Hoffer

The coward wretch whose hand and heart can bear to torture aught below, Is ever first to quail and start from the slightest pain or equal foe.
- Bertrand Russell
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Great quotes -- Thanks
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