I give up

I now see that no matter what else is apparent, there are very few people at DU who want a fair fight going into the primaries. Even if all the candidates began with an equal record, there is just so much animosity toward Hillary Clinton that she will never have the same chances here that any of the others have.

Despite the fact that her husband was the first Democrat in office in 20 years, despite the fact that no Democrat has been able to win otherwise in a fair fight, despite their superior and more complex morality, and despite the fact that Hillary has shown some good judgements in her past history, too many people here refuse to acknowledge anything good about her.

Does ANYONE remember that the SOTU speech in January 2003 had LIES and DECEPTION which lead to the invasion, preemptively, of Iraq? Does ANYONE remember that most people in Congress voted for the strike based on that FALSE information? People are SO quick to point out that many Democrats voted for the IWR without remembering that the falsehoods of Dickhead and Bushitler had made their case during that SOTU without all the facts, without ANY truths in respect to their fervent desire to fuck over the rest of the country and earn money for their cronies At Carlyle, Halliburton, Blackwater. ...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. ALL TRUE. But enough of those assholes. This is about Hillary. A woman that is not perfect, a woman with very strong opinions, and to be perfectly honest, a woman who can be a bitch. But can't we ALL be bitchy at times? Can't we face up to the fact that no one approaches sainthood anywhere?

Once upon a time, I felt that there was no place like DU. I felt at home here with like-minded people who shared the same ideals as I did. It was a place of sanctuary in a world gone mad with arrogance, pomposity and criminal behavior. I never quite cried in happiness, but there was a warm feeling inside me when I encountered assholes out there who supported the illegal regime that had taken over our country. People DID care--I had a support "group" that wasn't going to go away when the going got tough. It felt good.

But I have grown impatient with all the flinging of shit toward Hillary Clinton. To be honest, she isn't even my choice of candidates! But it shouldn't matter. Every single candidate deserves the same chance. And if they can't get that opportunity here at DU, there sure as hell isn't ANYWHERE else that they're going to get it.

I wonder how many threads I will soon have hiding? I suppose too many of them to give me an objective picture of the world of Democrats at DU. But there's a difference in the online world of 2007 from that of 2000: there are more sanctuaries for those of us with a fragile ideology, and sometimes, that difference makes finding them all worthwhile.

All arguments to the contrary, our philosophy going into the 2004 election was ABB--Anyone But Bush. And if it weren't for people like Wally O'Dell and Kenneth Blackwell, that strategy would have been a winner. But what the fuck is going on now with the NEW philosophy of ABH--Anyone But Hillary? For some people around here, you would think that Hillary Rodham Clinton were the Republican candidate of choice!

I think it's time to stop right now and re-evaluate our positions at DU, and I'm doing that myself. Are we Democrats, or are we just anti-Republicans? Do we WANT to see a Democrat in office on January 21, 2009, or are we just eager to make sure it's not Bush? Well, in the latter situation. all we have to do is sit back and it's going to happen regardless. The Dems in Congress STILL won't have a spine, and the positively wretched conditions in our government will continue unabated. Of course we'll still have a shit for brains president most likely, but them's the breaks! It's OUR fight, and if we want to see change, WE'VE got to make the conscious decision to make sure it happens, without relying on the powerful, rich and influential.

It's got to come from us, because it certainly isn't going to come from the right side of the fence. And it really DOESN'T matter which candidate wins, because almost every single one of them makes more in a week than most of us make in a year; because most of us have never been in that same world as the least of the candidates; and because our gaffes never make the headlines of even the most scandalous rag in the country.

I once commented that GWB is the kind of person who would cross a busy city street rather than encounter a homeless person or a panhandler. I still think it's true. But there are too many people in the country who feel the same way, and I've been surprised to see how many of them are emerging here as well. What gives?

It's time to count up our druthers and see which of them contribute to the overall sensibilities of liberals in the country. Granted, there are some issues on which even the most ardent of us find contrary to the Democratic POV, but I'd rather be in disagreement with a Democrat over something than be in agreement with a Republican. Am I that different to want to fight for fairness for ALL the candidates, including Hillary?

Forrest Gump had a famous quote (and actually, it is a quote that pre-dates Gump by many years): If you can't say something nice about someone, it's best not to say anything at all. As we get closer to the primary season, there will be many, many opportunities to bash our own field of candidates. But hell, why can't we concentrate right now on diminishing the Republican field of candidates instead of devouring our own? Makes a lot more sense to me.

most of the "progressives" here either.

That's kind of creepy, IMO. Do you mean superior to everyone else or just the potential Republican opponents?

I don't see Bill & Hill's morality as superior, or even something they'd want us to focus on - complex, to be sure, but superior is a very long reach.

as opposed to Republicans. I've always felt our moral choices were more in keeping with what is right in the universe. YMMV.

I thought you meant the Clintons alone.

One other thing caught my eye - that Bush would cross the street to avoid a homeless guy. I kind of doubt that - he's unlikely to care enough to notice him coming.

As to the primary war, I suspect we'll all come together in the end. Most of us, anyway.

:D Heavy on the butter, please. :9

This means going over them with a fine-toothed comb ourselves. The primaries are a sort of vetting process, wouldn't you say? Yes there are perils to that -- maybe the front-runner has some dirt uncovered that can be used against him or her by a Republican. But that is the democratic process (not the Democratic party process but the democratic process in general).

I personally don't like Hillary based SOLELY on her voting record, her support of Bush nominees, her support of the Iraq war, and her obvious ties to huge corporate interests. It wasn't always this way. In 2004, I was pretty much for her over all others except Gore, if he ran. But the more she talked and the more she voted (or rather the more I read about her votes, some of which occured when I supported her) and the more she supported Bush nominees, the less I came to like her. Then I began seeing this disturbing pattern of hanging in the background and waiting for the other candidates to make moves (e.g., health care, torture) then making similar statements, insinuating that somehow she was originating the ideas.

I will forgive someone if they admit to a mistake. I like what Edwards has been saying and he has been admitting his errors. I've always liked what Kucinich and Gravel have been saying. And of course Gore has always been 100% on the money from day one.

I choose a candidate by their actions, courage, and how much they care about the common man (and woman). I don't like Hillary's actions, I don't see much courage there, and I don't think she gives a rat's ass about you or me. All I see is a whole lot of greed, and we've already had enough of that, to the ruination of our country. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

who was trying to be generous, HRC has a problem with the truth.

He pretty much summed that up for me. If some of you want to continue to apply lipstick, I can only admire your loyalty.

I used to be a big Barry Bonds fan, until the evidence kept piling up, piling up, piling up... Even if he isn't a 'roids user, he sure is a jerk. It is hard to have personal heros diminished.

been chosen for us by the DLC and that other candidates have no chance. I don't hate Hillary and I used to even liker her but her own voting record changed that. Voting to give * the authority to invade Iraq was asinine. I knew it at the time and she should have too. I do not believe that Hillary was stupid enough to fall for their lies but if she was then she is too stupid to get my vote. And if, as I suspect, she knew they were lying and voted for it anyway, she is part of the problem. It is an either or and neither scenario would get my vote.

And I don't mean trolls and/or Republicans.

and I will continue to point out why at any given opportunity.
Thank you for your concern.

To quote your recent quote:
Forrest Gump had a famous quote (and actually, it is a quote that pre-dates Gump by many years): If you can't say something nice about someone, it's best not to say anything at all.

I totally agree, my Mom used to say the same thing.

So, I ask, how can you say such bitter things about a friend? Or, in you view, an ex-friend. Before I continue, I'd like to say that we (both) still enjoy the mugs you made for us. I'm sure that narrows it down for ya. And, we do miss your visits.

The bitter offerings I refer to were posted a short time after a camping trip (gone bad)towards the end of 2006. Your "partner-in-crime" (lol) had met someone online and had changed her life direction.

You weren't losing a friend, she was simply going to be further away. She'd hoped for your encouraging words, but instead received distain. Shame on you. I'd always looked up to you and thought you would have good words for her.

She recently came back for 1.5 weeks to gather belongings and one of her concerns was making sure you got back photos that belonged to you. They'll be mailed soon to you.

I look to my own past for a view on this. When I was 17, a friend expressed concern over my musical tastes because he thought it wasn't normal (late 70's punk invasion). Just because I wasn't into Led Zepelin or the Stones, it didn't meet with his idea of "the norm". It caused a rift and I was angry. Two weeks later, I called him and asked "what were we fighting about?" He said "I don't know, couldn't have been important". And we hung out that same day. Never an arguement since.

Differences make us who we are and why we like to be with one another. Hanging out with your clone is...well, it would suck. Too damn agreeable it would be.

I think that you were probably both guilty of forcing each others beleifs upon the other too strongly. Instead of just enjoying the moment.

Life is short, take a good look at the sunset.

Signed,
still friends

The unconscionable things he defends, runs PR game for, then turns around to be Clinton's top "strategist"? How does his being a dealbreaker turn out to be "unfair" to Hillary in your eyes?

deserve "the same chance" before the primaries. "Best not to say anything at all..." :wtf:

We all will eventually have to make the choice for a frontrunner even as we continue to support the others-- some more, some less. If you look at the way the mainstream media backs Hillary, she really isn't hurting from lack of DU support! No need to feel sorry for her.

It's call judgment, discrimination, intelligent selection.

This ain't a vote for the homecoming queen. :eyes: