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Now the question what can we do to stop this descent into hell?

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 07:47 PM
Original message
Now the question what can we do to stop this descent into hell?
Oif, it had to come right?

1.- Admit there is a problem... I am chiefly writing to the choir so many of us realize there is a problem.

2.- Realize that even authoritarian systems are brought down... for examples of this look at Romania and Checoslovaquia... to a point the USSR... and the United States, This country was born from a fight against tyranny... and the madness of King George was quite pervasive... and it was a police state of the 18th century. No it wasn't as efficient as the other three, but it was one.

3.- Read the founders, and realize their philosophy, even today, is radical. What do you mean all men are created equal? That scares the living daylights out of our current generation of neo cons. Understand the founders and realize that there are things done in time of war that are un-american

Ok back in the 18th century the Crown had Blanket Warrants, which allowed our local tax man to go into your house to make sure you paid your taxes... and they were all but nice about it. These blanket warrants are back. I don't care if they are proposed by a DHS flunkie or a chief democrat, anybody proposing anything like that is un american, period

You also have the right to assemble and petitions, and yes they will take photos of you at demonstrations, If they manage to cow you, they won... the king's men did similar things

In the 18th century they also tried the every so popular infiltration of free mason lodges, the equivalent in some ways to your local anti war group. (Yes there are significant differences), but they scared the living daylights of the European governments because they were democratic... your local antiwar group scares them as well

Talk to your neighbors, anomie is killing you and me, this sense of isolation. This only helps them. They need to you be scared

Assume they are listening to your conversations. Their intent is to silence you... but as we enter a more dangerous time it may become important to find ways of transiting information that does not use phones, the net or other means... AT$T is listening... but don't let that assumption scare you. It is the darkest before things turn around

Oh and don't assume that just because the country has returned from the insanity before, it will again, not without you nudging it.

Yes that means be alert, knowledgeable and realize that this may be a long fight

Oh and bear in mind that some folks will try to silence you, disrupt you or call you names.

It is par for the course

But chiefly learn what those documents mean, love the constitution and demand we return to it

Start by demanding the reestablishing of Habeas and the full and fair representation of the prisoners at Guantamo... they are the test in some ways.

Oh and remember the last thing to die is hope....
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wish I were more optimistic
I can't even get my own family members to concede that something is wrong here. So I tend to selfishly think about my own survival.

There was supposed to be a "walk out" in September to protest the war in Iraq, and that didn't even happen. How are we going to reverse what is going on in our country?

Even though I detest myself for thinking this way, I can't help but think that perhaps we have to prepare on an individual basis.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. If there is a walk out
and it is nowhere in the press, did it happen?

But I get your point

Some statistics are in order

one third of revolutioaries were active at any one point

One third oppsed it, the whigs

And finally one third sat it out.

We have very similar numbers at play right now

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The Capacity of the Individual
Just speaking for myself, it is so hard just for me to keep up with what is going on, meet my responsibilities, and keep myself sane.

How am I going to change my entire country?

And I think most people must have feelings like this.

I think I can only guarantee my own safety nowadays.

But I'm very hopeful and willing to be convinced otherwise, since that belief is totally against my religion, which teaches compassion for everyone, and helping ever other being no matter what. I guess it is a fight against a feeling of hopelessness.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You do it person to person
You make somebody else aware

You don't try to create a whole movement

But participate in local efforts

If you surrender to the fear (a hugely normal response) they won.

:-)

In a way, you have to choose what kind of life you want to live in these very dangerous times and whether you want to put others you know at risk
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. A lot of people are recommending this thread
Why aren't there some more replies?

I want ANSWERS to this question, dammit! :-)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Preaching to the choir?????
:-)
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Hey, it takes a while to think and type LOL
Another thing I notice is a lot of people are very good at pointing out problems. Suggesting solutions tends to cut that number down significantly. Some people don't know. Some people have ideas but are afraid or embarrassed to put them forth. Some people pre-judge their ideas and find them lacking so don't present what might be fabulously, wonderful ideas.

Anyway, I hope people post some ideas from the profound to the mundane to the insane. Then we can pick and choose to our heart's content. :D

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. K & R and some ideas from the "old days"
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 08:17 PM by Cerridwen
1 - talk and report (you've got this covered :D )

2 - silence is perceived as acceptance - the hardest part for me was to speak up with my family and friends - a crowd of a couple of hundred, no problem. My family...eesh. I eventually became the go to person in my family for political information, education and insight. My brother the PIA, button pusher calls and says, "So, Cerridwen, what's the big deal about this "don't ask, don't tell thing. Seems okay to me." :D He's still a PIA, button pusher, but he knows what's wrong with "don't ask, don't tell". A former boyfriend's kids used to bring home the "n" word from school. They may have gotten away with it at school and they may still have thought it around me, but they damned well knew they'd get the "stink eye" from me if they said it around me. The boy almost choked trying to stop himself from saying it one day. Maybe these many years later he still thinks before he says it; or better yet, maybe he's learned not to say it.

3 - vote - yep, it may be rigged, it may not be counted, I can give you almost as many reasons to not vote as I can to vote. The bottom line, people turning up at polls in masses sends a message and it always has the added perk of feeling as if I've done my "civic duty" which regardless of my cynicism is still firm-wired into my made-in-the-USA brain.

4 - write and distribute pamphlets and flyers if you are able - more of that education idea

5 - question everything, accept nothing at face value - even your own internal values, especially your own internal values - if you become successful will you "sell out"?

6 - donate money and time as you are able - pick a cause or causes

7 - write - letters to the editor, a blog, pamphlets, books, flyers - again more education

8 - the legal system - I'm not sure how "infiltrated" it is with liberty u graduates, but we can still change laws and policy through the legal system if it's working. Become a lawyer if you're in school. Learn the law. Use the law and the Constitution. Corporations became "persons" through the legal system based on the Constitution.

9 - have patience - it took us a long time to get here. It won't be fixed overnight; even with armed rebellion there's the re-building phase.

10 - educate the next generation and the one after that - yep, it's gonna take that long, at least.


This is hardly an exhaustive list but it's a start. I tried to include those things which don't require lots of time and money with those things that do.


Most importantly, pace yourself. Burnout loses us more activists than almost anything. Stay as healthy as you're able. Rest. And silly though it may sound, remember to celebrate the wins. If this seems weird, it's because you've not experienced what it feels like to feel as though you're constantly losing; it's demoralizing. Celebrate.

Then get up and start all over again.

edit: the inevitable typo

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The things we used to know
at one time i wrote essays as Plubius and forgot them at the local coffee shops in hawaii

I may go back to that

:-)

Ah Plubious, just need to bring down the langauge though
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Exactly.
Communication and education are still key - I fervently believe and think that. The only difference in the 21st century is mode of delivery. Flyers versus blogs for example. DU versus your monthly "book of the month club".

I wouldn't worry about the language too much. Plubious for some who may prefer it and are tired of the bullet point, sound bite, blatherings or screech radio. As popular as it is to think so, all right-wingers are not mouth-breathing idiots. Yah, I know, sacrilege. But we underestimate our enemy and our audience at our peril.

:D

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yes but I was using the "pompous" style of the 19th century
though I used to do things like talking about tyranny... in the classic sense, and why people needed to register to vote and damn it vote

And trust me, just like you I beleive my vote ain't gonna count, but if enough of us show up.... it becomes harder to flip an election

;-)
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Yeah, but just think, that "pompous" style harkens back to the language
of the Declaration and the Constitution and other "weighty" documents. I get the time frames are not in synch; but most won't get that. Just a suggestion. I'm amazed at how many people love "that type" of language if only they're exposed to it.

There's a line from "West Wing" (did someone mention pop culture?) in which President Bartlett, after hearing a discussion about whether or not to use a specific word as being to obscure in meaning, responded (paraphrasing) "If I'm going to run as the educational president, shouldn't I sound like one". My point is, a little stretching to get the words is sometimes good exercise for lazy/atrophied/narrowed/rarely used minds. :D

Of course, I was recently called pretentious for quoting Molly Ivins and not liking a certain type of humor. So hey, what do I know? LOL

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'll look for those essays and work over them
and forget them later on

As is, I am debating forgeting some copies of Naomi's books at the local coffee shop
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. :D
One book, one essay, one person at a time.

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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. We could do "post it" note ratings on books at bookstores.
Just a thought.

Have mini "post it" notes with stuff written on them (e.g. "AWEFUL", "MUST READ", "CRAP", "AWESOME!", and whatnot), go through the politics shelves and post our ratings.

*grin* Just a thought.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. What people have done
and it is called guerrilla marketing

Is to leave bookmarks behind, who doesn't like a free bookmark, with sites with information
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rustydad Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hell?
What ales us is not monsters taking over our almost perfect *Constitutional* system designed by men of property and wealth (not women or the poor). It is that our systems all depend on real energy, essentially heat. Fossil fuels to be exact. Very concentrated heat energy as well as a feedstock of lots of other goodies. As fossil fuel extractions decline so does everything that feed off it. When an animal dies the first on scene are the vultures. We live in the time of the vultures. The Constitution will not protect against the vultures. Bob
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Simple,
Elect Dennis.

-Hoot
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. :-)
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. "Sense of isolation"
That one is a biggie for me. Noam Chomsky warned about this, and in spite of his warnings, I definitely feel it personally.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. So do I
I fight against anomie every day... to use the very technical term

I talk to people,,, perfect strangers, which is increasingly a risky behavior You never know who you are talking to

But, in recent months I hear more a resignation of things are the way they are and nothing you can do about it

That worries me

But every so often I meet a stranger that sees the warning signs, hell I got a couple to register before the '06 elections and they promised to vote

Soon we will be dong the same again
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I have to confess, the isolation thingy struck me, first.
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 08:32 PM by sicksicksick_N_tired
On the other hand, I have many other things going on that seemingly compel me to "retreat". Made me think, though: am I retreating (to recuperate and re-energize) or am I becoming isolated?

When I compare the number of human contacts I had a few years ago to ones I have now, I realize I have become more isolated. I don't want to do that.
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I'm glad people are sharing this
But I'm not surprised it is a common feeling.

Maybe my situation is like yours, where there have been multiple losses in a short period of time, or maybe your situation is totally different.

Our society is designed to push people away from each other.

I had to make some drastic changes in my life very quickly to stop myself from totally isolating myself from people, and it seems to be helping. Even though it is not easy, I'm going to make myself do it. But I remember times when it was almost impossible to stop withdrawing. It's very hard sometimes.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. As you said this is done by design
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 08:43 PM by nadinbrzezinski
and it takes many forms, from the if it bleeds it leads... which means that many of us are not comfortable
with the "scary types" on elevators even if we don't say it.. and think who is usually in the if it bleeds it leads

To how schools emphasize certain history over other history... to the risk of myth making

To how citiies are built. There is no sidewalk really outiside and my supermarket is not at a walking distance

to social prssures not to talk to the cashier or the mailman

And we need to fight this ... and a simple friendly hello is a start

:-)

Hell, the other day I was jocking with one of the maintainance men . He's from georgia and was shocked that I talked to him

Well he's also in his sixties...

But I am white

And to the perception department, the other we need to fight

I went to the swap meet, to buy part of my groceries. My husband likes mexican sweet bread they sell there... well we had an incredible converstaion about how I don't look like a Mexican in Spanish... Mexico City Spanish

I bet this guera broke some stereaotypes that day

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. You are right
And to you, a friendly "Hello".

Thanks again for bringing these thoughts out into the public domain. They are so very important.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. I suppose one drastic change I could make is stop imagining being one of my critters.
They have complete peace 99% of the time (the other 1% involves "protecting" us or chasing other critters or minor squirmishes among themselves). I can sit and observe on of my slumbering critters, close my eyes, imagine being RIGHT IN those furry coats,...and feel peaceful.

*sigh*

Quite honestly, I used to be very comfortable with being the animated, communicative creature I am. Sometimes, I still do,...some times. *heh* There was a time I was actually admired for being free-spirited and ethical and so strong. Then, something, well, many things happened and I just got tired, I guess. Oh, my,...I didn't expect this to turn into a,...well,...that's all.

Gotta' keep those emotions reigned in.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. That's the way I see the parrots
they have an easy and happy life... even if 10% means me chasing them away from trouble
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. uh
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 09:18 PM by sicksicksick_N_tired
:rofl:

Uh,...wait a minute.

:dilemma:
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. K & R by the way
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 08:25 PM by Mike03
I'm glad you are here, and I'm glad that you post these sorts of topics.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. Quietly wake everybody THE FUCK UP !!!
People tend to avoid politics like the Plague, especially at work. The media and our Democratic party leaders are failing to call attention to the great anomie. We must find a way to artfully inject into our social interactions reminders of the state we are in. We must be creative and wise, avoid doing more harm to the cause than good.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Start wiht breaking the silence by simply saying hello to people
we need to break the silence

And then we can slowly interject things

Hell I have been known to carry a copy of the Constitition

Or one day, after the election, I was writing a letter to Nancy Pelosi on my handheld at the coffee shop... and somebody asked me about teh handheld, I steered the talk into writing leters to congress critters

The two women, half my age, were surprsied somebody actually did that.

Small steps

There are days I wonder if that matters, but I guess it does
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. What can we learn from history - from those who have gone before us and
dealt with what we're facing now?

Recommend.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. Reinstate habeas corpus & demand IMPEACHMENT
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 08:45 PM by autorank
Hope is not something that can be taken easily...

Here's the reality: we don't want to return to "the good old days" because they never were.

What, you way, how about 1992-2000. Well, during those good old days, we pushed the UN sanctions
against Iraq and at least 800,000 adults and children died as a result. It's not a controversial
statement, it's a fact. *** 800,000 Dead form sanctions - 1990-2003. What's good about that.

We need to have a government FOR THE PEOPLE that's honestly elected and we need to get all money
out of the election process except limited public financing. We need to honestly inform people
of what the government is doing in their name, i.e., killing in the name of...

And we need to take responsibility for our lives and that of our neighbors and fellow citizens
now, not later.

No more mindless b.s. endorsing someone for a label while they commit crimes in our name.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. That is why I am harkeing back all the way to the founders
you know the good ol... no more entangling alliances...

Yep that one

;-)

And I agree, first step we need to demand habeas back

But we also need to talk to our neighbors
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
69. I agree but we also need to know our history and its sources, which are amazing...
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 10:22 PM by autorank

The founders had a great gift fo generating a conservative constitution, which is a good starting point. We need to remember one of the rights they protected was the right to own slaves.

Lets go back further than the founders, to Bacon's Rebellion - small farmers of all races united to fight the colonial governor of Virginia. Blacks and whites rallied to Nathaniel Bacon who was fed up with Governor Berkeley allowing his trading partners, who happened to be native Americans, to pillage the farms of settlers without consequence. Bacons army overthrew the British government of Virginia, occupied Jamestown for two years, and issued a declaration condemning the oligarch, Berkeley:

Bacon's Declaration in the Name of the People
July 30, 1676
The Declaracon of the People.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5800

1. For haveing upon specious pretences of publiqe works raised greate unjust taxes upon the Comonality for the advancement of private favorites and other sinister ends, but noe visible effects in any measure adequate, For not haveing dureing this long time of his Gouvernement in any measure advanced this hopefull Colony either by fortificacons Townes or Trade.
2. For haveing abused and rendred contemptable the Magistrates of Justice, by advanceing to places of Judicature, scandalous and Ignorant favorites.
3. For haveing wronged his Majesties prerogative and interest, by assumeing Monopoly of the Beaver trade, and for haveing in that unjust gaine betrayed and sold his Majesties Country and the lives of his loyall subjects, to the barbarous heathen.

This rebellion was crushed and Berkeley, seeing blacks and whites fighting side by side, created racist policies to make sure that never happened again.

-------------------

Better yet, lets go back to the English Civil War. Now this is amazing. The army of Parlaiment (fighting Charles I and the aristocrats) issued a declaration DEMANDING DEMOCRACY FOR ENGLAND! The American Revolution drew much from these anti authoritarian revolutionaries who threw out the king. The Levelers and Diggers produced the following declaration.


AN AGREEMENT OF THE PEOPLE FOR
A firme and present Peace, upon grounds of common-right and freedome;
As it was proposed by the Agents of the five regiments of Horse;
and since by the general approbation of the Army,
offered to the joynt concurrence of all the free COMMONS of ENGLAND.


The Names of the Regiments which have already appeared for
The Case of the Army truly stated,
and for this present Agreement A.D. 1647

http://www.constitution.org/lev/eng_lev_07.htm

I. That the people of England, being at this day very unequally distributed by Counties, Cities, and Boroughs, for the election of their deputies in Parliament, ought to be more indifferently proportioned, according to the number of the inhabitants; the circumstances whereof, for number, place, and manner, are to be set down before the end of this present Parliament.(1) (real democracy, no geographic representation)

IV. That the power of this, and all future Representatives of this nation is inferior only to theirs who choose them, and doth extend, without the consent or concurrence of any other person or persons, to the enacting, altering, and repealing of laws; to the erecting and abolishing of Offices and Courts; to the appointing, removing, and calling to account Magistrates and officers of all degrees; to the making War and peace; to the treating with foreign States; and generally to whatsoever is not expressly or impliedly reserved by the represented to themselves.(2) (rulers inferior to the people)

Which are as followeth:

1. That matters of Religion, and the ways of God's Worship, are not at all entrusted by us to any human power, because therein we cannot remit or exceed a tittle of what our Consciences dictate to be the mind of God, without willful sin; nevertheless the public way of instructing the Nation (so it be not compulsive) is referred to their discretion. (freedom of worship)

2. That the matter of impressing and constraining any of us to serve in the wars is against our freedom, and therefore we do not allow it in our Representatives; the rather, because money (the sinews of war) being always at their disposal, they can never want numbers of men apt enough to engage in any just cause. (no forced drafting of soldiers)

3. That after the dissolution of this present Parliament, no person be at any time questioned for anything said or done in reference to the late public differences, otherwise than in execution of the judgments of the present Representatives, or House of Commons.(3)

4. That in all Laws made, or to be made, every person may be bound alike, and that no tenure, estate, charter, degree, birth, or place, do confer any exemption from the ordinary course of legal proceedings, whereunto others are subjected. (no one is above the law)

5. That as the laws ought to be equal, so they must be good, and not evidently destructive to the safety and well-being of the people.(4)

These things we declare to be our native Rights, and therefore are agreed and resolved to maintain them with our utmost possibilities against all opposition whatsoever, being compelled thereunto not only by the examples of our Ancestors, whose blood was often spent in vain for the recovery of their Freedoms, suffering themselves, through fraudulent accommodations, to be still deluded of the fruit of their victories, but also by our own woeful experience, who, having long expected, and dearly earned, the establishment of these certain rules of government, are yet made to depend for the settlement of our Peace and Freedom upon him that intended our bondage and brought a cruel war upon us.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. and of course we need to add
other philosophers of the Enlightenment and the Magna Carta

Rousseau was not a direct influence on the US, but at times folks should give him a looksie as well
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. Agree totally. Broaden horizons, pick the best, create expanded rights, opporunities,
and protections.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Helping people
to understand the connection between impeachment and bringing the war to an end. The simple truth is that there be be no serious reduction in the war of occupation in Iraq during the rest of the Bush term, unless the democrats in congress push to impeach. (There will be attempts to manipulate the public in the summer of '08, in order to help republicans in the fall elections. But no serious changes.)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
72. You prediction is probably right.

We still have to demand the truth and punish those elected who deny it with shame and disgrace. Surely
any thing we say will seem mild by the judgment coming in the next few decades.

Our representatives are failures and will go down as the worst representatives imaginable at this time, almost all of them in both chambers.

Impeach all of them!

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #72
83. Depends on WHO writes the history
after all, Iran Contra should figure highly in text books... but it is not

I suspect we will have some protection and revisionist history to reclaim bushco

The brother may not run THIS TIME.. but don't think he's out
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. Why do I think impeachment is necessary? Because it's all about accountability.
People are exasperated with this government because of the lack of accountability. NOTHING WILL CHANGE unless there is accountability.

There are literally 36+ SOLID BASES for impeachment.

Okay. Okay. The corporacrats have the media in their pockets, for now, and the Democrats do not have solidified power to ensure an outcome. But, damnit, what better goal to shoot for than accountability in this environment? WHAT BETTER GOAL?????
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Well people are exasperated because what is going on
leads to another characteristic that people are able to see but not quite grasp

Some folks are indeed above the law
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Actually, I think most everyone grasps that,...they just try to figure,....
,...how to "deal with it", as unfair and wrong as it is.

Some figure, might as well play the game, while others never give up on what is suppose to be applied to all, and still others just say, "fuck it".

But, most all certainly grasp the fact that there are those who ACT above the law. I believe most do comprehend that reality.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Then it is time people act
and voting is certainly one form of action, in fact radical action, given all the caging and other sheenanigans

But people need to start speakign, plainly, to each other of what is going on

And letters to editor are also needed
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
29. Regarding your top points
The "All men created equal" part struck me. Whereas I am not trying to avoid responsibility, it is clear that all men are not treated equally in this country. We are more divided and judgmental of one another than ever. (probably relates to your isolation point as well) When the system fails, only a select few will have the support they need. This happened after 9/11 when many industries were in financial crisis, and a lot of folks lives were ruined. This is still happening to a large extent with home foreclosures. Next time a financial crisis happens it will probably be worse. People who have money or land might make it, the rest of us will be used and leached upon. The U.S. does not know how to function without a slave class.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Agreed, but the idea itself
is revolutionary... that is why all them writings are seen as BORING.

And right now we are not in a capitalist country, not by any classic definition...

But remember, that idea was and still is radical

Of course these days it should become all men and women are equal

Why they are going after constitutional schollars
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. It is just clear to me that the statement is not applied in the U.S.
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 09:09 PM by djohnson
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

People today couldn't care less about that statement. Are all men treated equally? Nope. Are our rights unalienable? Nope. Are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness valued in the U.S.? Nope.

People may argue that we barely apply those concepts, but they are all straw men arguments. We are totally and utterly controlled by money. Our actions are meticulously controlled by CEO's and shareholders most our waking lives. But that's okay even according to most progressives.

I guess we are free to dream whatever we want while we are sleeping, that's about it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. We are free to try to make them releveant
the price of making them relevant is etermal vigilance

They are not relevenat right now.. and most folks don't even know what they mean.

But they could apply and that is what the founders believed

Hell, if you read the debates over the Constitutional Convention, you will quicly realized that they didn't believe their work was complete... at all

Hell, women have a vote today.. no minor feat... but what those we oopse want is to take away your and my vote

Chew on that.

:-)
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
64. Speaking of voting
Election day should be a national holiday. As it stands only people who don't have to work are able to vote, pretty much. Oh yes, people can go before or after their jobs, but, for example, does a working mother who has to pay a baby sister have the energy? Little things like that make a difference. Obviously this country does not care about the people if they don't bother thinking about these little things.

IMO, it's pretty much obvious to most people that the U.S. is not functioning anywhere close to the ideals outlined in the Constitution. Sadly, most people think it's a joke when they hear it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Here are some of the changes I'd like to see sooner rather than later
national elections moved to Sunday (it was originally tuesday because Sunday was a day of rest)

Nationlaized primaries (adn this will require an ammendment I fear)

publically financed election

Proportional representation (which effectively will break the strangehold of two parties)

Those I see as a good begining to modernize the system
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. It WAS pretty much a national holiday at one time; corporations didn't like it ----
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
31. First we need to restore habeas corpus
and shut down Guantanamo and Bagram and other torture camps. Then maybe have a newly elected president restore constitutional government and void the new laws that violate the constitution through executive order. That's about the only way I see or a lot of this new found fascism stays.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Yeah but we need to fight for it
we are the foot soliders of democracy...

That is the truth.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. Yes and the stakes are high.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
78. First we need to impeach . .. that's the first step which will force everything else back in line --
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. Education. Communication. Skepticism. Resistance.
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 09:03 PM by Gregorian
I started out with two and had to keep adding more.

I really like the post about discussing politics at work. This nation of zipper lips is in trouble today because of the fear of division. Hell, we're all different. We're all in separate bodies. We're trying to find a way to come together. Keeping quiet is comfortable and safe, but doesn't get us anywhere.


I just watched a documentary on the life of Howard Zinn. What struck me was that in 1974 I was at the university of Santa Cruz. And I had marched to end the war in Vietnam, but I had absolutely no idea of what had taken place in the names of the people of this country. I had no idea of history and politics. Maybe I was young, but I think it's an indication of why we are in trouble now. Because if I didn't know about it then, I was never going to know. I was there for premed. And I would not get an education on political history and foreign affairs.

It should be a requirement that children know politics before graduating. They should know the importance of the media.

I say this because once someone knows politics, they are then educated on the very most basic function of society. Then society has direction and control.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Since the 1980s there has been a concered effort to
ahem bring education back to the three Rs and dispense with things like history and civics

My "nephews" from my brother in law's previous marriage, did not have a civics class in HS, and they are not going to colleg

So how easy to do you think the cops had it when they arrested one of the kids?

They mirandirized him... but I truly doubt he got it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. To all of you demanding the restoration of Habeas, the way
to do that is simple: Work to elect dem Senators in states like VA, NH and CO. I've seen people here say they won't vote for Mark Warner because he's repub lite. Guess what? 3 more dems and Habeas Corpus is restored.

Oh, and you might call/email Senator Leahy to offer encouragement and thanks. He's been working assiduously for a long time to restore Habeas.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I've been encourage by the work of Leahy and Dodd
in getting vote totals closer. Awareness would go a long way also.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. That too.
It would be nice if Soros or someone funded a group just to focus on Habeas restoration.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. Wouldn't it be nice if we just offered encouragement more often?
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 09:13 PM by sicksicksick_N_tired
Jus' sayin' :shrug:

What you suggest is practical. Get more democratic Senators in,...especially in states where Republicans are retiring or weak.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Three more Dems that will vote to restore it.
Three more Dems elected doesn't guarantee that those Dems will vote appropriately.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. It sure as hell does.
ALL the Senate dems voted to restore it. That means people like Ben Nelson of NE. The three seats most likely to change to dem are:

Virginia: Mark Warner is the candidate and though he's no raging liberal, he's far more so than Nelson or Landrieu or Bingaman, etc. Warner is literally a shoo in unless found in bed with a dead boy.

NH: Jeanne Shaheen is ahead of John Sununu by double digits, and is fairly liberal. She would abslolutely vote for it.

CO: Mark Udall is a progressive dem. 'nuf said.

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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. as you are knowledgeable in this area... I have a question.
has there ever been a turn toward what we are now facing, actually stopped before the apex arrived? how and whom. there may be some lessons there.

sorry, I am very uninformed in this area - just cursory knowlege.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. In US History actually twice
The Adams Administration had many elements that were similar, though it never got that bad

And yes reporters were thrown in jail

People were accused of treason

Lifes were ruined

But it never got as close it has right now

And then the McCarthy period

It is the closest in the 20th century we came to a dark night

And that one, it was the fellow members of the senate who finally had enough

But both periods had quite a bit of fear

In other countires it has been stopped, becuase either the state decides they are done with the tools, (Mexico) or because the people have had it...

It doesn't succeed all the time... but if you don't try

...

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. In US History actually twice
The Adams Administration had many elements that were similar, though it never got that bad

And yes reporters were thrown in jail

People were accused of treason

Lifes were ruined

But it never got as close it has right now

And then the McCarthy period

It is the closest in the 20th century we came to a dark night

And that one, it was the fellow members of the senate who finally had enough

But both periods had quite a bit of fear

In other countires it has been stopped, becuase either the state decides they are done with the tools, (Mexico) or because the people have had it...

It doesn't succeed all the time... but if you don't try

...

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
51. Presidential fund for the general election - $3 per ea, you and your spouse
When filing personal income taxes, whether using 1040, 1040A or 1040EZ, you can designate $3 to go to the Presidential Election Fund.

If you're starving the beast this may not be for you. But, if you want to start to get more tax dollars and fewer corporate dollars into presidential elections, this is an easy way.

Here's an FAQ I found which explains it nicely. (It ain't purty but it answers most questions)

This costs you NOTHING. The monies are moved from the "general fund" into the Presidential Fund. It is taken from the tax dollars you've already paid during the year. It is NOT deducted from a refund. It simply moves money from one governmental pot to another governmental pot.

If this makes sense to you - tell your friends, family and co-workers.

another link with additional information.

It's a teeny-tiny, baby step to taking on corporate funding of elections.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Yep, baby steps
:-)

I figuted after some threds going over the problem was time to do the ... ok we beaten this horse to death, what now?

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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. For which, I'm sure,
the horse thanks you. :D

Seriously, it's almost impossible to devise strategy and action without first naming and identifying, well, strategy and action.

So, for today, we've got some good names, some good views of action - now we can get some ideas to address what's coming at us.

Then we'll start all over again tomorrow. :rofl:

Sorry, think I'm getting punchy about now.

:D

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Exactly
and the belief that someday it will nice and sunny and I can go back to arguing over ficitinal fascist states in the 31st century... instead of current events

:-)

Trust me, those were good days... and I miss them
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The Inquisitive Donating Member (480 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
57. boyle's law
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. I like what you've been posting. You get it. Thank you.
:thumbsup:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. No thank you
we should check on what we have been able to do on our own

and as groups
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
62. "anomie is killing you and me, this sense of isolation."
Exactly. I'm not that great at starting conversations with people; I keep to myself mostly, but I'm working on changing that. I know that for me, personally, the isolation has made things worse, but I also think that there are countless people out there who feel more isolated than they truly are. And it's not just the solitary ones like me. People who are socially "normal" and interact more with each other on a day-to-day basis still don't share their deeper thoughts, which leads to them thinking that nobody around them shares their opinions, no one agrees with them. And often that's not true.

I think we might be surprised to realize how many people agree with us, shocked when we realize that we're not alone.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Well hello there
and that piece of art, might be part of the problem

We spend insane ammounts of time on-line, but we have lost our abitly to talk to each other

A simple hello, how are you (and watch for my husband and his medical reports) is a good start.

That alone will help to break it... we are taugt as well to keep to ourselves, because everyboy is dangerous... granted, there are some assholes out there... but I'd say 90% of the people out there are not going to pose a danger to you or me, and a simple helllo can bring a smile... and slowly a change

They count on the anomie, not only our fearless leaders, but any leader that has created such a system
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. The painting...
is by Eric Drooker. He did some other ones like that too... The lonely crowd and whatnot.

It's easier just to be a stranger, I guess. Sitting in our own brains. But I think we've done enough of that for one eternity.
:hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Yep,
:hi:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Outstanding thrat btw, meant to say that earlier. n/t
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
74. I'm not sure English is your first language or if you reside in the USA,
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 10:11 PM by Beerboy
but I'm not at all certain what your overall point is supposed to be. Is it that we can spell the "A" in USA w/ a k now? Often, you're justified using 3!:smoke:
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
75. easy: socialize. fraternize. organize. cooperate.
1. talk to people, say 'hi,' be civil and friendly. ask them questions about how they are doing? everyone loves to talk about themselves. give them open space to feel free to vent or share an emotional burden.

2. with those who you most click with associate more often. gather together regularly at set scheduled times, like potlucks and book clubs.

3. those who are particularly frustrated or beleaguered invite simple solutions from them, brainstorm. if they get stuck offer simple and innocuous solutions, such as a quick letter to their representatives or coupon clubs or swap buying advice.

4. give space for commnity to develop and a sense of mutual reliance to grow. do a potluck hosted by a family who are currently a little tight on food. create carpool or babysitting opportunities. share zucchini from your garden.

to create a forest you require the seeds of grasses and shrubs to recolonize the land first. suburbia raized many communities in the past 60 years. it's time to undo the damage and reconnect.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Yep that is the first step to get rid of anomie
the rest follows in many ways... truly

But once people start getting together again.. and ahem talking.. they realize they have power
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
80. Only non-violence . . ..
QUOTE: but as we enter a more dangerous time it may become important to find ways of transiting information that does not use phones, the net or other means... AT$T is listening... but don't let that assumption scare you. It is the darkest before things turn around UNQUOTE

As others have noted . . .

Corporations need our $, our cooperation --
We can do humorous things and we can do actions together --
Australia recently had a "lights out" campaign re the environment but it could be adapted
in many ways if everyone did it together. I think they did it for something like a half hour.

Turning TVs off is simply a GREAT idea ---

NEVER watch commercials ---

CARS can also be used to send messages . . . we can have everyone pull their cars over for 15 minutes -- to a curb, to a parking lot, or sitting in your driveway.

And, we can have a period of time when we don't buy gasoline --
or buy it from only one company?

We've heard a great deal about how we now can't let businesses fail because they are so big their falling would be catastrophic --

A long, long time ago I recall at least Jerry Brown talking about things like this . ..
that every individual really does know the way to protest, the way to pull the plug . . .
when they begin to think about it.






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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Oh trust me, these systems are best brought down
Edited on Mon Oct-15-07 12:08 AM by nadinbrzezinski
using non violence

I suggest folks read Gandhi and MLK for ideas

And I like your idea of lights out.

Oh and supporting the companies that support you... (A few)... or local businesses
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
84. Nothing can stop it. The only option left is to jump out of the car.
Tuck and roll, motherfuckers; tuck and roll.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. There are days I am tempted to do just that
it would not consume time

But could I live with myself as a moral person?

The answer is NO
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
86. kick for the monday crowd
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BornagainDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-15-07 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
87. What Kucinich said: "arrest them". nt
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