Failing Schools Strain to Meet U.S. Standard

Source: nyt



October 16, 2007
Failing Schools Strain to Meet U.S. Standard
By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO

LOS ANGELES — As the director of high schools in the gang-infested neighborhoods of the East Side of Los Angeles, Guadalupe Paramo struggles every day with educational dysfunction.

For the past half-dozen years, not even one in five students at her district’s teeming high schools has been able to do grade-level math or English. At Abraham Lincoln High School this year, only 7 in 100 students could. At Woodrow Wilson High, only 4 in 100 could.

For chronically failing schools like these, the No Child Left Behind law, now up for renewal in Congress, prescribes drastic measures: firing teachers and principals, shutting schools and turning them over to a private firm, a charter operator or the state itself, or a major overhaul in governance.

But more than 1,000 of California’s 9,500 schools are branded chronic failures, and the numbers are growing. Barring revisions in the law, state officials predict that all 6,063 public schools serving poor students will be declared in need of restructuring by 2014, when the law requires universal proficiency in math and reading............

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/16/education/16child.html?_r=1&th=&oref=slogin&emc=th&pagewanted=print

I think the best solution is to break mega-schools down into smaller schools with 100-200 students, and have 15-20 students in the classroom.

Also, having Spanish-speaking students taught core subjects in English is a waste of everyone's time. There should be bilingual education until the students are caught up with their English.

If you gave me a basic skills test in German, would I pass it? Nein. :P

Close the bad schools down, encourage all the kids to enlist in the military.

Then divert the money being spent on those schools to building more prisons.

:sarcasm:

Prison Spending to Outpace Education Spending in California.

“Nothing predicts future success better than a good education, and nothing guarantees failure more than the lack of one.”

Despite the irrefutability of the above statement, the state of California is projected to increase spending on construction of new prisons and correctional facilities by nine percent annually over the next five years. In this same period, the state is projected to increase spending on higher education by only five percent annually.

When you think about how many kids drop out of school and how many of these kids (especially the poor White, Black, and Latino ones) end up in prison, it’s astounding that anybody would even contemplate spending less on schools than on prisons. I’d love to see a study counting the number of people in jails and prisons around the countries who hold high school diplomas versus Associates, Bachelors, and Masters degrees. I bet that as education increases, the likelihood of incarceration decreases and I bet there are many more high school dropouts in prison than M.A. or Ph.D. holders.

It should read "all 9,500 schools" will be declared in need of restructuring.

That's the problem with NCLB. It's written so that no school can succeed unless it can divest itself of "special needs" children - as the standards which need to be met apply to EVERY student.

and which point it is declared a failure and "turned over" to a private institution (like, say, Ignite!, Neil Bush's company).

See where this is going? Here is the REAL intent of NCLB.

is NCLB a long-term plot to Federally control schools? Think about it. By 2014, 99% of students have to be grade level. This is impossible being that the lowest quartile of IQ's will NEVER be able to get up to grade level (unless the bar for grade level is set much lower).

Is it possible that in 2014 the federal gov. will sit there and say "See... See... the school systems suck, they can't live up to our standards... we need to federally standardize education!!!"

it is to create vouchers and privatize schools just as they wanted to privitize military

no secret to this plot

They think they can do a better job?

With no more money?

Tee hee.

Charter schools are privately owned. That's what the law is meant to do--make all schools charter schools (which actually have worse test scores most of the time).

We have been looking for a house and the homes near good schools all seem to show that in the listings. More money isn't the answer - that has been tried and there are a couple of attempts at flooding money into mtropolitan districts and they have not been successful. Keeping kids in school and learning - not just housing them - requires motivation. It has to start with parental concern, has to have qualified , dedicated teachers, and students willing to learn.

in order to not fail in the set up our govt has created with no child, (being in texas) school teach toward the passing of the test for months. as it gets closer to test time they eliminate subjects that are not going to be tested like science and history and double the time of classes that are going to be tested like language and math. the kids will be put in tutoring after school and there is the aggressive effort to make sure every child passes this test. they are teaching to a test. the time spent teaching to a test is amazing and it is not what our schools should be.

texas started the no child and has had it in place the longest. as of now it doesnt matter if a person is democrat or republican they do not like no child. not a single teacher, principle or school board member feel no child is the answer and it is not because they are lazy, incompetent or dont want to do their job. i have had excellent experiences with adm and teachers alike thru out my kids academic lives.

Texas has had a state test for some time. TAKS is the latest version - a significant improvement on the earlier exams. The Texas test is carefully tested and is based on the published TEKS - Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills - the state wide curriculum. If the teacher teaches to the TEKS, they do in fact teach to the test and will prepare their student for the TAKS. I believe the text books accepted for use in the state all conform to the TEKS. The new movement to change to "end of course" test in lieu of the TAKS should eliminate the straw horse of "teaching too the test". Science is now tested. There is work on social studies although I don't know the status.

I am not in favor of going back to the old system. I don't think the colleges and universities are either. UT has to take the top 10% of Texas high school graduates. Many show up unprepared for university work thus requiring the university to complete what should have been done in high school.

It continues on into the business world. I have seen new employees who cannot complete a writing assignment. Technical businesses are hiring foreign workers because adequate candidates are not available.

I applaud schools efforts to truly help students pass the test by aggressive effort like after school testing. It is true some kids don't "test" well. That is a problem that has always been with us. It is the real world.

and become robotic learners? That's what it takes to pass the state tests.

Or would employers rather have workers who have critical thinking and problem solving skills?

The "test" is geared to the curriculum. If you teach it properly, the student has the knowledge to pass the test. "Robotic learners" and "factoid spitters" are a couple of the tired old excuses usually thrown out by those defending the old system that didn't produce. I should have expected these terms would be an automatic response. State tests don't exclude teaching problem solving and critical thinking. Where critical thinking is taught properly, it is terrific. Lately, I am suspicious of the term and exactly what it means. Maybe we should have an end of term test for it.

Cause you don't seem to know much about high stakes testing or performance based assessment. Yes, the testing we are required to have under NCLB is geared to the curriculum but our curriculum is made up of knowledge based/recall information learning.

No our children do NOT use critical thinking skills to take these tests. They are multiple choice norm referenced tests that only test facts and give no opportunity to think critically or solve problems.

The old system had a very few problems that were blown out of proportion by those wanting to destroy public education. Don't fall for the hype. What we have now in our public schools is NOT an improvement. It is MUCH worse.

I have taught. If you teach the curriculum in math, science or any other subject, the student should learn enough to answer a question in any format. Don't you use some multiple choice questions in classroom tests and quizzes? Most of us experienced this in our educations. Do you just tell the students to work the problem before selecting an answer? Do you tell them there is a secret code in the a,b,c,d choices?

The NCLB tests don't replace te regular course tests. You can still teach the student to use critical thinking and to demonstrate it in the classroom test. I'm sure you have heard the well worn lament that "My child makes all A's and he has not passed the math portion of the test in X tries". So, lets look at what else the tests do. They ensure that the child has the basic knowledges required at his/her grade level. That means that they test how the school delivers on teaching. And they test how the teacher delivers on teaching. It shows the weak links and requires someone to address them.

I think the old system had a lot of problems. They were not blown out of proportion. The universities and businesses wanted better trained workforce. Oh please don't throw out the old worker-robot thing. It is tired and discredited. I don't know who wants to destroy public schools either. The "academies" and charters don't seem to be doing so well and they are basically small scale. What would they do with the full education load? I don't think I am the one who has fallen for the hype. OK, what we have now isn't the best, but it is a step toward better. As to being a teacher, I've seen it and I don't have turf to protect. I want what is best for the students.

We don't even have recess in my district anymore. No instrumental music either. Many districts have given up art and music classes. Every minute is spent preparing for the test.

We have scripted curriculum now. So no, we really don't have time to slip in the extras that good teachers know the kids need. You know, those 'extras' like critical thinking.

If you don't know who wants to destroy public schools and why then you really haven't been paying attention. :)

web pagest don't believe the rhetoric (and that is a generous description of the crap that is put out on education).

I think you are so close to a problem that you don't see anything but the "evils" of the test. It is understandably convenient. Your district, as we have discussed before, has a major (see, I didn't shout) problem. It is barely accredited - see today's Kansas City Star, or your own district's home page on accreditation which refers to the district meeting 64 of the 66 points needed for full accreditation. That is much kinder, by the way, than what the Independence ISD home page says. They quote Senator Victor Callahan (I'm sure he is a quack), “From an educational perspective, the Kansas City School District received an unaccredited score of 3 out of 14 in their last accreditation report. To gain some perspective, even the St. Louis City School District, which was recently taken over by the State of Missouri, received 5 out of 14. The Independence School District received 14 out of 14". The problems with Kansas City ISD didn't start with the test. They were not cured with the huge infusion of money over the years. There are serious structural problems I'll grant. Still, it appears we are understandably in deep turf protection.

As to the time allotted to teaching "those 'extras' like critical thinking", my grand children are in DODDS school. My grand daughter loves her class in critical thinking and she scored VERY well in the Terra Nova standardized test. They seem to find the time to teach the extras and in elementary school have recess. When the kids were in Copperas Cove TX ISD, they enjoyed a full curriculum and recess and managed to score well on TAKS. And that district has a diverse population - with many underprivilegedd and english as second language students.

I try to look at the testing process in various states. Most are struggling with it, but aresucceedingg. I don't see serious people saying that public schools are doomed and slated for extinction.

dont know. i am watching the chidlren losing classes to study for the test. it is not fabricated or made up. i have children in the program. and these are school that are well above the state average. top of the line in the state. think how much more time is devoted in the schools that have more challenges.

undoubtly too many. But study for test taking is not the answer. Teaching the required course material is the answer.

cannot have that attitude. has to be, whaatever it takes, we must succeed. that is how these schools have been set up, and the students have been set up for an almost given failure. even texas legislators now realize and see this on both sides of the isle.

The Texas leg did a good thing in setting up end of course exams. Teach algebra one and take the test then on that material. That should mean less testing technique teaching. Test taking skills actually defeat the purpose of the test and lower grades.

I also wonder who has more credibility here - a teacher actually in the trenches or a critic with a minimal understanding of the political forces out to destroy public education?

As goes KC, so goes eventually every other district in the area. That has been the pattern for many years. At one time, KC schools were held up as models for others. There are still many excellent schools in the district but the media is more interested in the poor ones.

Suburban districts are also provisionally accreditated yet our media doesn't tell their viewers about those. They also don't tell about the programs in KC that receive higher marks than in any other district in the area. They don't tell about awards. And they don't tell about schools that had higher test scores than most schools in many suburban districts.

The only thing I agree with you about is Victor Callahan. But that's a whole nuther post.

Well, lets see. We have a teacher in the trenches whose students don't have time for "extras" or recess but the teacher has lots of time to post on the internet. "The critic with a minimal understanding of the political forces out to destroy public education?" is cool. So, you have the political understanding I don't. By who's estimation? What makes you the expert on the political understanding of me or anyone else? Have an MPA? Your comment has a whiff of paranoia some would say.

"Suburban districts are also provisionally accreditated (sic) yet our media doesn't tell their viewers about those. They also don't tell about the programs in KC that receive higher marks than in any other district in the area. They don't tell about awards. And they don't tell about schools that had higher test scores than most schools in many suburban districts" The media is out to get you? Television, print both I guess. Local and national. The parade of district administrators just couldn't get the word out I guess.

Yes, once Kansas City schools were very good. I heard about good public schools before my time there. They were models, but that has changed. The times and needs have changed. The schools now - for all the new plant and magnets - appear not to have changed their attitude.

they are cramming in every different method imagined to get a kid the concept of what is one the test. then the child is to use the three four five different methods with each problem in the test to be sure they are getting the answer correct. it is THAT important for the kids to pass. so even though the course like music, history, science takes the back seat, they are taking the back seats even more (at least the lower grades) in order to make sure the kid will pass the specific problems assigned to pass for that grade.

then to suggest the old way is the reason higher academics and business world has issue i think is to minimize the changes in our society and we will be proven wrong that something like this tak test is going to correct it. i think the problem you are talking is more the social evolution over the last decades that have more to do with parenting and the demands and expectation and support the parents are putting on the kids in their academic environment.

so much time, an unreasonable and incredible amount of time is being used to specifically teach to the tests. it is not a hype. it isnt just a bunch of people bitchin for the old way. it is a reality for the parents of children in the school, watching classes liike science and history being taken out of schedule to replace with two periods of math and language. it is teachers who are implementing and seeing how much time is devoted to teaching children how to pass the tests.

If you teach the TEKS and the students have a good understanding of them, then you have taught to te test. Texas has a good system of integrated curriculum (TEKS), text books and test (TAKS). School districts have been sold a ton of testing bunk about the three, four or five things on the test.

You really need to talk to some teachers.

there are things in this testing that is doing very well addressing the very issues you have with the colleges and later into the work force. one of the things i am most impressed with our schools, sons being 4th and 7th grade is what they are doing with writing. prior to the taks coming in all the way back to my time in school i think we really let the children down on teaching them to write, especially term papers. once i got into college and took english 102, writing, it was like a light bulb. how much easier it was to write papers. i often tell my children and the schools, give this to the kids young and will help them tremendously once they move on academically.

BUT.... there are issues in this current system that is so bad and grievous that the good is over shadowed and it will get much worse what... in a year, 2008. when even the children with much lower iq's that cannot be at the standard of the normal or other child are going to be expected to accelerate at a rate they cannot meet. or the many schools in areas where the parents are not supportive of teachers or principles in after school programs that will allow more than normal failures because they cannot get the parental support. or the number of drop outs in high school will continue to escalate because the student cannot meet the test numbers.

my oldest i put the pressure on him telling he MUST make a hundred to bring school scores up. all the pressure in the world is good for him. i watched my youngest in third grade go into the test for the first time. it was sick. it was sick what that child put himself thru for the pressure the school and teachers have to put on the kids all the while, the teachers understanding how unreasonable the pressure is for such a young age, they are trying to bring it down. they give the kids techniques how to de pressure themselves during the test. these are 8 year olds. this is disgusting. and something wrong in this

having had a first child that could handle all of the pressure without batting an eye, i had no concept. so was easy for me to arrogantly dismiss as understand some have a tough time with test.

then watching my youngest, who does have a tough time (i never did), i was disgusted.

the kid started the test at 8 a.m. and was there until 5 pm, last kids out of school. made self sick mid day but chose to continue. twisted out half his bangs. and had an easy 100 on the test.

is something that needs to be addressed in the renewal of No Child Left Behind.

You are correct, the pressure of the test is a factor for many kids. Much of it is applied by the school because they need to make ayp.. Many kids don't respond well to pressure. My grandson is in 6th grade and he doesn't respond well to pressure on math tests. In cases like his, tutoring intest taking strategies is a great idea. Teaching him things such as how to read the question, to work deliberately on solving the math problem, to be neat and orderly in his work, and to not rush to finish have been very helpful.

I am not worried about my grandson. He will do well in life because he wants to succeed. Learning to deal with pressure now will stand him in good stead in later life

Unfortunately, many people have made a great deal of money playing on the schools' fear of the test. All sorts of test taking training and seminars, practice tests, and other gimmicks have been peddled.

every advantage in life. and even in teaching my child that this is just a struggle for him, that he has to buck up and do the best he can, and it is character building, i can at least be honest enough in discussing this with adults to say what a bunch of crap it is. there are a lot of children that do not have my sons advantage. even though i know mine wont be hurt, it doesnt mean i cannot or willnot consider other children, lots of other children who dont have the advantages my son does.

testing. We on DU spend a lot of time demanding accountability and oversight for many things. NCLB is a demand for accountability for education. There is great resistance in the entrenched teaching profession. There is great abuse in administration. The answer is to fix the flaws in the law and to demand that local education administrators stop the test prep excesses. We don't want to lose public schools - political rhetoric at best and fear mongering at most probable - okay lets fix the problems. Your child has a good concerned parent - go to school board meetings and voice your concerns.

nor accountability. one of the very basis to my character is accountability. one of my issues with this set up is the accountability is placed in the wrong place. the teachers are being made accountable for children and families that they cannot possibly be made accountable for.

one of my greatest issues is parents have seemed to allocate their powers to school. (and police, and govt and anyone else as long as it is not them). consistently and always i make it clear to children, teachers and the schools adm that i do not give them the power over my children, that i take full responsibility for my children and am accountable. we make the schools and teachers accountable to teach children about sex, about drugs and alcohol, about morality, about being studious when the teacher has no power and control over these things. really it is only the parent that has the ability to truly have accountability.

as i have said in other posts, i listened for years about how bad public school was, how bad tenure teachers are, how incompetent the adm is at the schools. i sent kids to private school for 5 years because all i had heard. until i listened more to what the kids were learning in public school compared to our top private. i felt my kids were doing with less while i was paying for it. since sending kids to public, i have been so impressed with all i deal with.

further, i have always been, always will be involved in the schools. i am pta so i am right there knowing what is going on. i volunteer regularly to be a part so i am well known. my child is known by all. i am. and my child that will be coming into the school is known.

conclude: what i am seeing happening with texas leg., school employees, and the school boards i do have faith that they will address the issue, and steps will be made to correct. at what cost. how many will be lost. where we will end up, time will tell.

Dumb on my part. If we talked, I think we woould agree more than we might expect here.

on agreeing. my father and i have talked about this often. he has grandkids and a real interest in all this. looking for answers too. i have seen his position adjust a tad on this issue too. i spent the first two years in the public school system simply asking teachers, principles and counselors for their opinion, not giving them a position i owned. i didnt have a position. i didnt know enough, or experience enough with my children. in spring 2006 i believe, carlisle was running for state senate. she was part of school board. i became involved in her campaign because she had knowledge and information on this whole process. i want what will help not only our students, but also our teachers.

i am looking for win win all around.

Thank you for trying. Not enough of us are. Very many people are taking this as a political thing - a tool. It is too important for that. I don't want to become cynical - I hope there is a win-win. Part of this is in revising the basic act. The other part is local - making the local people teach, not waste time on questionable test prep and adequate and appropriate budgeting. More parents (and grandparents) have to get active.

or children in public schools in Texas. Your posts show so little knowledge of the system it's scary. You applaud the Lege? For what- forcing teachers to spoon feed a test to kids all the while being forced to ignore critical thinking skills, creativity, or even practical life skills?

You see employees who can not write because they are not taught to do so, since it's a fairly small portion of the test and students can still pass even with mediocre writing skills. But then given this sentence of yours, it seems like we've had that kind of problem longer than I thought- "If the teacher teaches to the TEKS, they do in fact teach to the test and will prepare their student for the TAKS." Uh huh. In one breath you argue against teaching to the test, then in the next you claim Texas has an integrated curriculum which allows teachers to, ahem, teach the students the test.


It's rather funny, don't you think, that the private schools who are held up as shining bright examples of all that is good and right in education are not subjected to these standardized tests. Yeah, funny that. Perhaps one of the reasons that private school students tend to score higher on SAT type tests is that they are actually taught in school rather than tested. Novel concept that.


By the way, now our teachers are being forced to teach special ed students to pass the test. As unfair and frustrating as that is for the special ed students who have been exempted for years and are now being asked in less than 1 school year to learn 1-3 grade levels above where they've been, it's equally unfair to the other studens who lose even more valuable time from their teachers who are now intensely focused on a small group rather than the class.

The Texas system is hideous and has been for years.

Some kids cost more to educate than others. Some schools need more resources than others. Some school need teachers with more specific training than others.

All these things cost money. Lots of money.

Schools that "make the grade" are in communities where parents are involved and care about their kids and the schools that serve them. They also have the resources to supplement what the schools are doing. Resources cost money too.

So yes money is a very big part of the answer. Why would anyone think we CAN'T improve our schools without it???

I believe CBS sixty Minutes looked at your district. Their verdict was no major progress. There was money poured into plant, teachers and resources. Where are we now?

It's inevitable. They have special ed populations that are mixed into the testing and this ensures that sooner or later, the test results will persistently be under standard.

I know. I live in one of the best school districts ever (Dupage County Illinois - one of the wealthiest and most educated counties in the country - also deep red), and our schools are on track to "fail" per NCLB within the next 5 years. If you factor out the special ed kids, the schools are performing well above passing standards but that population of kids means our schools are already on watch lists. These are schools with involved parents, motivated highly qualified teachers, students who are eager and ready to learn, and highly skilled administrators. And we are failing. I can't even imagine kids from poor neighborhoods who don't have the school advantages that the kids in my area have. It just means they fail faster.

There is enormous anger in our red county about NCLB from top to bottom and the school districts are talking about opting out of federal funding to get out from under NCLB. Hell, they've already cut art, gym, and music classes, as well as vocational programs in order to try to teach to the tests but you can't force every kid to fit into one cookie-cutter mold - so it won't be a big fiscal nightmare to cut loose from federal funding. NCLB as currently structured is impossible. Nay, it's dangerous and wrong. We need our independent thinkers, our special ed population, our artists and musicians and auto mechanics.

And FYI, beware the real estate advert that tout "great schools!" Dig deeper and you WILL find trouble within from truncated educational programs that only teach rote learning to the test, disaffected school boards, and angry parents and teachers.

supporter than she is. yet... this is what she says. we too are a school of upper income students and a lot of advantages that comes along with this. soem disadvantages. but.... with the special ed having to bring there scores to the requirement will effect the schools standings and there is not a whole lot the teachers or adm can do about it. she was saying last year that bring those scores to where they are suppose to be will be a year or two. cant remember the date she gave me.

Special ed assassment is one and the math form ayp. Those have to be fixed. I don't buy the truncated educationa programs and the teach by rote. It doesn't have to be. I'll agree to disaffected school boards and angry teachers = oversight isn'yt fun when you are under oversight.

Are you saying I don't know what I am talking about? Or that I don't understand what I am seeing or hearing or experiencing in my community? I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't have to be"? I am intimately involved with my childrens' schools and I know first hand how these teachers and administrators are struggling to meet NCLB standards that are impossible with diverse student populations.

School boards ARE under supervision. We, the people in the school district monitor the school board. The anger from school board members is because they are being forced to cut more art programs, or de-fund band, or put off upgrading computers or whatever in order to fund tutoring programs for special ed kids that will never meet the NCLB standard in one example from my school system. The school board isn't disaffected because parents in the community are actively involved or that we monitor their activities - their anger lies with NCLB and it's insanity. I'm not sure what you are driving at here.

And angry teachers? Hell yes. They are going to be fired because they can't perform the job - an impossible job may I add - of ensuring that their school meets standards that cannot be met. WHEN the school fails, through no fault of the teachers, failing simply because of our diverse population which should in any sane situation be seen as a blessing, these teachers are out. What about that fact eludes you? They are also angry because their time is increasingly taken up by homogenous exercises that deny them the creativity and flexiblity they need to create interested and interesting students. Their anger isn't about oversight - it's about a national program that is actively hostile to them, and that will ultimately cost them their job.

I am really sorry you can't see NCLB for what it is, a privatization scheme cooked up to ensure our public education system fails. I don't like the implications of this - it's just far too ugly to examine on so many levels but it's the truth.

I will repeat, if my school system in Dupage Co. Illinois (look it up if you don't believe me) is failing, there is absolutely no hope for school systems without our kinds of resources. And I have come to believe that failure is now, and always has been, a purposeful intent based upon observation, feedback, dialogue with educators and studying NCLB up close and personal. My school system has enough resources to de-couple from the feds when that time comes, and they will survive until the madness is repealed or reformed. Schools in communities such as those in the OP will do very much worse and reviving them after (how many) years of privatization may be impossible. Any of the good teachers will have fled and they won't be back to teach in those places. Those communities' schooling issues should never be placed upon the backs of teachers and administrators when the real problems for those communities' are social and political. I would bet a million dollars that spending money, time and resources on poverty issues would be a far, far better use of ALL of the NCLB cash, bar none.

I don't understand why a school system like Dupage Co. has to take such drastic actions because of the special education kids - that they are bringing down the whole system. You are there - I'm not, so I take your word for it. It is always an alternative to tell the Feds to keep their money and quit worrying about NCLB.

I think your paragraph about your regret that I can't see NCLB for a nefarious plot to privatize the public school system where I couldn't buy your response. That this is a way to end public education is simply something I do not believe.

And as a progressive, I worry about all of our public schools - not just my community. So we have the resources to withdraw and wait out the feds' folly but schools like the OP don't have that option. This is just one point that progressives all over this country are screaming about NCLB.

NCLB is placing all blame for educational failures onto public schools - especially teachers, when other issues that play important roles in school success such as poverty, failing social systems, immigrant integration etc. etc. are patently, deliberately ignored.

I could go on and on about why this is a deliberate plot by the Rethugs but I have to get off this computer! Perhaps I'll try to get back on tomorrow if I can get away from work and outline further why I believe this and how I came to that conclusion.

Peace!

mostly public schools. So, in that sense, it would place blame for inadequate performance on public schools. That is still a big leap to the plot to end public schools. I don't think you can convince me that the aim of NCLB is the end.

schools. they want it to be privatized. these are campaign slogans. not hidden, not underhanded. one of the ways of doing this is to give vouchers to the students so they can chose the school instead of it by district. the republicans i talk to challenge me with dont you want all kids to have the opportunity for a good school and good education. but after a lot of thought with vouchers, in the poor areas you will have some parents willing to use it. those parents will pull their kids out of the district school and go elsewhere. the school will them have less money, creating a larger challenge to give the kids a good education. the kids that will leave this school are the kids whose parent are a strong influence on their children and are willing to put the extra effort into their kids education. a lot of the parents wont be willing or able to drive the kids to and from the out of district schools. it is the cream of the crop kids of these school that will be going elsewhere and it will suck these schools dry even more so than what they are today.

schools will be shut down

corporations will take over these schools and run them. how impressed are you with the privatization part of the military. republican move to privatize the army. i see incompetence, theft, they dont have to follow same rule as regular army, corruption and abuse of power.

corporation today who has all the rights over employees like never before. abuse

why would we trust our kids education to corporation

and again, it is not because i am anti corporation. up until the last handful of years i have always been pro corporation. the last decade things have changed in the corporate world drastically.

Yes, vouchers are a problem. I have heard the arguments how these will impact public schools. Usually it includes a plot to fund religious schools. So far, there are no vouchers and it will be a big fight to get them. You have the math right. If a student leaves a school because of inadequate performance on the part of the school, the losing school would get less money. The money would move with the student. What is the problem? Why subsidize failure? Of course the best parents are going to send their kids to the best schools possible - I did. I suspect you would. The school doesn't have to be out of district. And before privatization, NCLB calls for the state to take over the school. This is all an added incentive for a school to improve.

I don't see corporations taking over education. The corporate run schools are a tiny part of the school spectrum. They have a very mixed performance history. I don't think there are any corporations that could step in an take over even a small school district.

Privatizing of the military. Well, it certainly has had some problems. Lets look at where it came from. Google OMB Circular A-76 and with a little looking you will find that it calls for contracting out "non-governmental" functions in all of the Federal government. It goes along way back - to Ike. It is amazing what has been defined as "non-governmental functions". For instance, copying isn't a "inherently governmental function".

We reduced the military after Desert Storm. The Army went to 10 divisions - very small. Historically, they were tasked to be able to fight two major actions at the same time in different parts of the world. The military, looking at their past history of contracting and government policy in OMB A-76, asked how they could get the most out of the manpower in 10 divisions. They contracted out food prep, maintenance, and many other functions. Contracting in the military has been around for a very long time. It worked. It costs money. And I don't intend to defend KBR or OIF.

Privatization has worked well. We went to the moon with contractors. Look who does the work at NASA. Look who does the work at DOE. Go to Federal Executive magazine site and see if they have a list of government contractors on line. Privatization is here, it is deep and it is going to stay - red or blue.

are now also required to take and pass the test. The very reason that they are special ed is that it has been determined that they can not, for various reasons, learn at the level their chronological age says they should. Thus they've been diverted from mainstream classes, often for several years.

Yet now they are all of a sudden being tested at several grade levels above where they've been taught. If that doesn't sound like a set up to you, then I have this bridge for sale, real cheap...




Oh and, if the fact that the Bush family has several ties to charter school and testing companies doesn't raise your eyebrows, then I also have some ocean front property in Arizona. (with all due respect to George Strait :) )

the test. This is a problem in NCLB - needs to be fixed in the reauthorization. I am sure you remember that Texas , alone, had a different system for testing sp. ed kids. It was based on the IEP - if the were eighth grade but being taught 2nd grade math, there was an accommodation. We had to change - the 8th grader being tested at 2nd grade level was '"demeaning". I think it is a piece of education school horse puckey, but not a plot. I don't see plots everywhere.

It appears to me to relate back to mainstreaming - a practice that predates NCLB.

Thanks for the bridge offer. I have one now that will allow access to the beach property in Nevada - when California sinks into the sea or whatever.

i was thinkng, if i just stayed in az i would have the beach front

think of the toll profits

this is in a solidly middle class to upper middle class neighbhorhood. However, because of the school districting we draw from several lower income neighborhoods with a high percentage of immigrant children. A certain percentage of those ESOL children have to show progress in their SOL tests, and last year we didn't make the percentage (just barely). But that doesn't matter, we still "failed".

Our county which is one of the richest in the nation, and has one of the most highly rated school systems simply can't afford to concentrate the funds and the programming to a school that's on the borderline like ours, because they are busy throwing all the money and resources they can at the schools that have well over 50% ESOL students and would never have a chance.

It really has nothing to do with the motivation of the teachers, the students or the parents, it has to do with the system being rigged.

:applause:

I'm guessing Fairfax or there abouts. Yes, there is a heavy immigrant situation here. It is a tough one. I would lobby the district for more funds for an on-the-line school that has a real chance to make ayp. This sounds like a management allocation problem.

I don't fault the teachers or the parents motivation. Northern Virginia has some outstanding public schools. I do disagree that the system is "rigged". I think NCLB has to be refined to account for these problems.

i am tired of that bullshit too. these are the people working their collective asses off and i have watched 8 years of private school, low income public and high income public schools. i am not seeing the lazy, non motivated teacher or administration. i just have not been "lucky" enough to run into the teacher the nation is bitching about. but then i am involved in kids educated. i am informed. i am on teachers side, supporting her and have ALWAY found that with the parent and the teachers motivation in the best interest of the child, my children excel.

because teachers are in there doing the work and say not working, they have the people who are not a part pointing the finger at them, blaming them

just bullshit

Phase out public schooling as somehow "failing" our children, and put all of our education into the hands of private schools. The sad thing is, by the time that the public and government figures out that these private schools are worse than the public schools, it will be too late and the public school system will be dismantled beyond all repair.

NCLB is up for renewal this fall, and we need to demand that our Democratic reps do away with it. Are there problems with our public schools, yes, but these aren't problems NCLB can fix. In fact it only makes them worse.

re-evaluation of American educational practices and institute alternative curricula and parallel standards.

One size fits all doesn't.