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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:40 PM
Original message
Obesity is 'deadlier than smoking' and can knock 13 years off your life
Obesity is more dangerous than smoking and will dramatically shorten the lives of millions, a landmark study has found.

While smoking reduces life by an average of ten years, the research says being seriously overweight can cut life expectancy by as much as 13 years.

The Foresight report, written by 250 leading scientists, says Britain's obesity crisis is so severe that it would take at least 30 years to reverse.

If current trends continue, by 2050 about 60 per cent of men, 50 per cent of women and 25 per cent of children in the UK will be clinically obese - so fat that their health is in danger. At present around a quarter of adults are obese.


The effects of this on the nation's health will be devastating. The report expects type 2 diabetes to rise by 70 per cent, strokes to go up by 30 per cent and a 20 per cent rise in coronary disease.


The rates of certain cancers will also go up.

more at link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=488004&in_page_id=1774&ct=5

off to smoke a twinkie.
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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gosh, you're right! Better take up smoking so I can start losing weight
Three packs a day will do it.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. The only difference between obesity and smoking is
my cigarette has the chance of exacerbating your asthma, COPD, bronchitis, allergies, etc. making you sick.
My fat isn't going to harm you unless I happen to fall on you and kill you.
The moral of this story?
Fat people should yell timber? No.
Smoking is still more harmful to others.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Unless those "others" are obese.
Edited on Wed Oct-17-07 01:14 AM by TahitiNut
That would be a case of a person freely and willingly doing damage to their own health at least three orders of magnitude to that allegedly posed by ETS. You wouldn't be able to identify the second-hand smoke impact in the rounding error of the self-inflicted health damage.

It has always puzzled me how a sane person can willingly jog (or walk) along a heavily traveled highway, sucking up exhaust fumes, and then complain about someone standing on the corner smoking a cigarette.

I've always felt that I should demonstrate that I value my health before I attempt to inflict laws on others for posing some trivial risk to it - if I don't show, by my own consistent actions, that I value it then I can have no complaint in equity.

If anyone has some mental condition that makes this difficult to comprehend, it's merely sufficient to ask whether ETS is supposedly a risk to everyone or just to non-smokers. Are smokers NOT also as allegedly harmed by ETS as non-smokers? If not, then why not?


A person has no valid complaint that someone stole their TV if they put it on the curb with the trash. :shrug:

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Raejeanowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. I'm With You, Tahiti Nut
I've also never understood how statisticians could tease out secondhand smoke as a standalone cause in the cancer rates, as if modern victims would never have been exposed to anything other compounding factor like exponentially increased auto emissions.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fat is the new tobacco.
Wait for it...."second hand fat".

You heard it here first.

:-) MKJ
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. ****snarf****
:rofl: :rofl:
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well, I've already read reports...
...about how fat people are driving up the cost of health care, making it more expensive for everyone.

It's a small step from saying this to saying "fat people are killing 'normal' Americans, because more expensive healthcare means fewer people can afford it." Once that little meme takes hold, the vilification of the overweight will shift into high gear.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. I think it's fat-CATs that are driving up the price of health care
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
53. There just was a recent article about how if your partner or friends are all fat, you
will be fat too and conversely, that thin people tend to associate with other thin people (they eat and exercise in mostly the same way).

My hubby is overweight and I am (now) thin due to some health issues. A lot of our fun of eating out together has been diminished. I simply don'thave the appetite I used to have. Irealize that I am eating like a thin person, since I have observed thin people who move the food around their plate a lot but actually consume about a half of the serving. Of course, serving sizes are too big, we all agree -- it would help if restaurants just served less on an individual plate!
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Mmmmmmm.
Can you fry that?
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Already scientifically proven in the New England Journal of Medicine
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/perspectives/2007/2007-09-20-Obesity.htm

Obesity: You are who you befriend
BRITTANY YEAROUT
Perspectives Editor

Avoid cake, ice cream, double barbecue bacon cheeseburgers and overweight people if you are trying to lose weight. Because shedding pounds includes shedding friends, according to a federally funded study, “The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years,” published July 26 in the New England Journal of Medicine.

“Our study suggests that obesity may spread in social networks in a quantifiable and discernable pattern that depends on the nature of social ties,” according to the article.

Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler evaluated 12,067 people over a period of 32 years, examining different aspects of the spread of obesity.

The results: the study showed that “the closeness of friendship is relevant to the spread of obesity.Persons in closer mutual friendships have more of an effect on each other than persons in other types of friendships.”

A person’s chance of becoming obese increased by 57 percent if he or she had a friend who became obese during the time. For same-sex friendships, the probability of the skinny person becoming obese because the friend was, increased by 71 percent. As for friends of the opposite sex, no significant association was recorded.

<snip>

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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
45. I really resent this study because I have a friend who's obese.
I mean REALLY obese, by anyone's standards. She weighs over 300 pounds. She can be extremely difficult to get along with sometimes (but then so can I), but she's bailed me out of a number of impossible situations during the past seven years when nobody else would help me. This includes the last one when I was faced with yet another housing crisis. I am now living in the house across the street from her, because if it were not for her I wouldn't even have known the place was for rent.

So am I supposed to end my friendship with her because she's allegedly "hazardous to my health"? I'm not obese, and I doubt that I've gained a single pound because of my friendship with her. I'd love to be able to help her improve her morbid and compulsive eating habits, but then she'd love to get me to stop smoking. Knowing me hasn't given her the slightest inclination to start smoking either (just thought I'd throw that one in).
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
58. I plan to fat pinch all my friends from now on. You can't be too careful!
:-) MKJ
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. The difference between an aesthetic hazard and a health hazard
having thus been defined...

:-)
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. Actually someone wrote a bunch of shit about second hand fat
in 2004
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35302-2004Aug2.html

Oooh the fat virus gonnagetcha!! And make you faaaat..eeew. God people are fucking stupid. and VAIN!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. Second hand fat
:rofl: That was hilarious.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. But we obesiters have a better chance

of dying quickly from stroke or heart attack instead of slowly and painfully from lung cancer.

Of course, if they're lucky, smokers may get away with only getting emphysema

:sarcasm:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. Only if obesity is combined with either inactivity or diabetes
Nothing is deadlier than smoking.
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Except maybe a bullet to the brain.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. Or leaping in front of a speeding beer truck
or jumping out of a plane without a parachute, or taking a nap on a busy express train track, or....
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Agreed
I hate that "compared" to smoking bullshit.
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MLFerrell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. "Nothing is deadlier than smoking."
Edited on Wed Oct-17-07 09:23 AM by MLFerrell
Apparently, obesity is deadlier than smoking. Didn't you read the OP?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I did, and pointed out why the data were incomplete.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. If smoking is combined with with either 2 packs a day and starting when you're a teenager.
Anyone can make empty but 'true' statements like that.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
60. what about a game of russian roulette?
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. What? Fat is deadlier than cigarettes?


You don't say.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. So if I took up smoking again to lose weight I might improve my odds?
Awesome!
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. One problem of this is the cost to our health care system
That's the part that puts obesity on par with cigarettes. The cost was the core basis for settling those recent tobacco lawsuits with the states.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. AGE is the biggest cost on the healthcare system
Old age and trying to keep an old body young feeling when it isn't young anymore.. People routinely live to be 60,70 or 80 years old now.Bodies are mortal. Back in ancient Egypt and most people were skinny than and worked physically more they were lucky to get to age 40. Think about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Keller family illustrates what may prove to be one of the most striking shifts in human existence — a change from small, relatively weak and sickly people to humans who are so big and robust that their ancestors seem almost unrecognizable.

New research from around the world has begun to reveal a picture of humans today that is so different from what it was in the past that scientists say they are startled. Over the past 100 years, says one researcher, Robert W. Fogel of the University of Chicago, humans in the industrialized world have undergone “a form of evolution that is unique not only to humankind, but unique among the 7,000 or so generations of humans who have ever inhabited the earth.”

The difference does not involve changes in genes, as far as is known, but changes in the human form. It shows up in several ways, from those that are well known and almost taken for granted, like greater heights and longer lives, to ones that are emerging only from comparisons of health records.

The biggest surprise emerging from the new studies is that many chronic ailments like heart disease, lung disease and arthritis are occurring an average of 10 to 25 years later than they used to. There is also less disability among older people today, according to a federal study that directly measures it. And that is not just because medical treatments like cataract surgery keep people functioning. Human bodies are simply not breaking down the way they did before.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/health/30age.html
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. Unlike obesity and smoking, age isn't preventable. n/t
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. Doing 'stoppies' on the freeway may shorten your life by 70 years

That doesn't make smoking any better of an idea.



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slampoet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-16-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. 'I slept with my sperm donor' says mum longing for a baby
'I slept with my sperm donor' says mum longing for a baby


Any comments about this story in the same paper too?


You are all suckers for believing anything in the Daily Mail.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. Yeah, I wish DUers wouldn't use the Daily Mail as a source; but the study is genuine, and elsewhere
eg ITN: Obesity 'more dangerous than smoking'

PA: Majority of Britons 'obese by 2050' ("Dealing with the problem will require a comprehensive long-term strategy on the scale of tackling climate change or smoking, it is claimed")

BBC: Obesity 'not individuals' fault'
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
42. *lol*
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
47. Classic fallacy.
Valid reasoning isn't a DU forte. :shrug:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. All those online health tests
Changing your weight always does more to increase your life expectancy than stopping smoking. This isn't really new. Still, smoking makes it hard to exercise which makes it harder to take the weight off, so it's still good to stop smoking even if you're overweight.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Even marriage has more of an impact than smoking.
It makes me wonder why, then, can't the 'wronged' spouse sue for their decreased life expectancy upon being divorced.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. lol, maybe I should have kept the cigarettes
and dumped the old fart. :rofl:

Between him and the kids, I'm a walking miracle considering the cumulative stress they've put on my life. Of course, I admit, I'm no picnic either. :)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Maybe you misunderstood. married people live LONGER.
A divorce (becoming 'single') has a greater impact on one's life expectancy than smoking. (At least that's what I've seen in all those surveys and tables.)

So, when you dump the "old fart" you're actually reducing his life expectancy. (Unless he finds another 'victim.') :evilgrin:

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Oooohhhh
I got it backwards, oops.

Or maybe I can start plotting my revenge...
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. Meh...
everything's killing us, according to all the breathless reports, and yet we keep living longer and longer.

I'm done with the health-hysterics.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. Bullshit
Edited on Wed Oct-17-07 01:48 AM by undergroundpanther
More lets hate fatties tripe.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/15/1861?maxtoshow=&eaf


The scare tactics are working. Americans continue to pump billions, and blood, sweat, and tears into their "body projects," convinced that if they are fat, they are doomed.

Conflating fat with sickness is a dangerous delusion. The truth about fat, reinforced recently by a $419 million federal study involving 49,000 women, is that it does not automatically indicate unhealthiness.

http://www.alternet.org/story/32958
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2007/09/mythbusters-are-odds-stacked-against-us.html
http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Politics-Americas-Obesity-Epidemic/dp/customer-reviews/0195169360
http://en.internationalism.org/wr/276_obesity.htm
http://www.bigfatblog.com/node/590
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?SID=mail&articleID=000E5065-2345-128A-9E1583414B7F0000&chanID=sa006


How STUPID can this scare get..??
This stupid:
Oooh the fat virus gonnagetcha!! And make you faaaat..eeew. Damn, are people THAT fucking stupid. and VAIN? Yeah..sigh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. I think you'll find this report is actually saying the same thing as your links
From your Alternet link:

...
Your health can only be improved by movement and moderation.
...
Equating weight loss, instead of lifestyle changes, with improved health is "like saying 'whiter teeth produced by the elimination of smoking reduces the incidence of lung cancer,'" argues J. Eric Oliver, author of Fat Politics: The Real Story Behind America's Obesity Epidemic. Even a group of CDC researchers admit that "evidence that weight loss improves survival is limited."
...
There is no talk of what Buddhists describe as "the middle path," no discussion of the pleasure of walking, eating homemade food, slowing down.
...
It is not fat itself that is unhealthy, but our hypocritical attitudes and compulsive behaviors that are. We drive two blocks to the grocery store and then spend 20 minutes circling the parking lot so we can get a close spot. Once inside we load up our carts with low-fat, microwave meals and diet shakes filled with artificial everything.
...
We just need to leave our cars in the garage, stroll down to the park, and play some softball with our neighbors on a Saturday. We just need to enjoy every last bite of our home-baked birthday cakes, then have some oatmeal for breakfast the next morning.


From the Mail story:

But modern life - with the easy availability of cheap unhealthy food and families relying on their cars - means it is almost impossible for many to avoid putting on weight.
...
"We live in a consumer society which encourages us to eat. We have a sedentary lifestyle. It's an environment which means that if we just behave normally we will become obese.
...
Pointing out that the design of many towns and cities is based around the needs of the car, it suggests more should be done to ensure that it is easier to walk and cycle to encourage residents to take more exercise.

Sugary and fatty foods are much cheaper than they used to be, but the cost of fresh fruit and vegetables has actually risen over the past 15 years.
...
"It's time for the Government to prioritise public health. If it doesn't, the human and financial cost on society and the NHS will escalate out of control."

In the past 30 years, physical activity has declined significantly in the UK.

Between 1975 and 2003, the average distance per year each person in England walked fell from 255 miles to 192 miles.

Over the same period, distances cycled fell from an average of 51 miles per person per year to 34 miles.

Car use, meanwhile, increased by more than 10 per cent. A fifth of all journeys of less than a mile are now made by car.


See, a lot of this article is saying that it's more activity that's needed - just like your article. From the BBC article on the report:

Obesity, the authors concluded, was an inevitable consequence of a society in which energy-dense, cheap foods, labour-saving devices, motorised transport and sedentary work were rife.
...
From planning our towns to encourage more physical activity to placing more pressure on mothers to breast feed - believed to slow down infant weight gain - the report highlighted a range of policy options without making any concrete recommendations.

Industry was already working to put healthier products on the shelf, the report noted, while work was advanced in transforming the very make-up of food so it was digested more slowly and proved satisfying for longer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7047244.stm


Still think the report is 'bullshit'?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
55. In my cardiologists office is a BIG poster listing heights and weights and
their corresponding "overweight" and "obese" categories. I struggled to get below the "overweight" category for my height. Then a funny thing happened. I had some serious complications of abodominal surgery, unrelated to my high blood pressure that sent me to the cardiologists office. I am still recovering from the fallout from that situation (4 surgeries to date in 6 months time). I have lost 30 lbs, gained back 5, lost a couple more. Of course, I am not even ON his chart anymore and what an IRONIC joke that is! No, I don't have cancer, but people assume that my weight loss is because of cancer (also some of my hair has been falling out, prolly as a result of some malnutrition).

Be careful what you wish for...
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. What does this do for the risk pools in socialized health care?
60+ percent of adults are living lifestyles that subject them to increased risk, but I eat right and exercise, thus cutting my risk. Should I have to pay for their choices when it comes to healthcare?

What about smoking? Not using safety belts? Not using motorcycle helmets?

These are honest questions - I'm not being a smart-ass. Obviously, if everyone participates in paying the cost of healthcare, but some people cause more of the burden though conscious decisions, why should I have to pay? You didn't have to eat an extra cheeseburger every day, but I do have to pay for your bypass surgery?

Is that how it will work?
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Oh my, there's that awful word socialism... The military
and the VA is the biggest social programs we have, and it seems to work.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. I doubt it would be more than you're paying now, in fact it would be less.
Right now you are subsidizing uninsured people at a much higher costthan if they had actual "socialized" health care. As it stands now, those without insurance don't get preventitive care and show up in the ER, a high cost health care delivery system, when the a medical condition becomes severe or when suffering serious trauma.

If you currently have private insurance, BTW, you ARE paying for someone else's care, since you're all part of one big payer pool.

Nice RW talking point, though. Welcome to DU. MKJ
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Thanks for the welcome. :)
It wasn't intended as anyone's talking point; just a thought that popped into my head as I read that. I don't think it's right, if everyone is going to be lumped into one pool, that some get to pee in the water, as it were. :)

My employer offers decent insurance, but I declined it. I'll "self-insure."
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. LOL. You're welcome! BTW, there may be a chance you could be one of the "pee-ers" down the road.
Health can be a bit of a tenuous thing, at times. MKJ

:-)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Rule #1: The minority pays for the majority. (It's 'democratic.')
:puke:
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
31. I always find stories about how much time you might live longer
if you give up (fill in the blank) amusing. The time referenced is at the end of your life, not the beginning. If I think maybe I'll live to be 95 or 100 and a dozen of those years might be in a nursing home, I say pass the Pepperidge Farm cookies.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. ttt nt
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. Smoking prevents me from becoming obese.
Whenever I crave a snack, I smoke a cigarette instead. I have been smoking for over 50 years and I'm still alive and well at 68.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
36. shameful junk science -- and it could even promote smoking...
The worst obesity problem is the one that afflicts our public health budgets. We pump them full of dollars, and they use the money to produce studies proving that they need even more money to "fight" "epidemics" that they created by juggling some numbers. They're pigs.


Depending on the numbers and methodology you choose, you can "prove" anything. Don't just swallow this stuff whole -- evaluate!

Here are some questions to ask:


How many people were in the study, and what are the characteristics of the studied population?

Over what length of time were data collected?

Were the data independently measured, or were they self-reported by the people in the study (eg, did the people report their own height and weight)?

What were the criteria for including or excluding data or subjects? (That's a big one -- a lot of science turns to junk when the researchers start cherry-picking their data to get the results they want).

How many subjects didn't complete the study, and why?

Does the study methodology involve econometric modelling (a strong indicator of junk -- a mathematical alchemy that consists of plugging arbitrarily-weighted variables and reams of raw numbers into complex formulae in order to turn nothing much into something from which conclusions can be drawn)?

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
50. Yeah, because 250 scientists don't know squat. And science is automatically a political statement.
Here's a link that should get you started: http://www.foresight.gov.uk/index.html

Science can only be *used* for political statements, like the people in this thread dismissing it and complaining about the smell of smoke and so on.

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. hon, I went there before writing my post...
I wouldn't have commented at all if I hadn't.


:hi:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. If you read the study then you wouldn't have asked the questions you did.
The study tells you exactly how many people were used, over what time period, and how they came to their conclusion. What you're attempting to do is do exactly what you're telling others not to do, form an implicative conclusion based on faulty data.

If you think the Foresight Obesity information is faulty please by all means tell us where their data gathering and analysis is wrong, don't *imply* that is is wrong and outright call it "junk science."
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
67. I advocate approaching all this sort of thing with caution...
I suggested some questions that people might want to ask when they evaluate any study whose conclusions they find themselves urged to accept uncritically and act on. That seems to piss you off for some reason.

Oh, well. Can't please everyone.



... the basis on which the government’s Foresight report has been produced is questionable. The authors assume that obesity is caused by an imbalance between calories consumed and calories expended. But as the Australian writers Michael Gard and Jan Wright point out, researchers have struggled to confirm this thesis. It might be true - but studies looking for an increase in calories consumed have tended to find that we’re actually eating less than in the past, while studies looking to confirm we take less exercise have also been inconclusive. Yes, it’s true we have many labour-saving devices and transport options now - but there are also many more options for physical activity, too. Women, in particular, would have been strongly discouraged from taking part in sport 50 years ago but now are as likely to be active as men.

Nor has the world of work changed as much people assume. In the past, only a quite small proportion of the population spent their days as miners or road diggers - most people had sedentary jobs back then, too. The kinds of jobs we do may have changed, but the energy involved may not. There is little reason to assume that manning a station on a production line, for example, was any more energetic than filling shelves in a supermarket or flipping burgers. Oh, and people may not have noticed, but despite all their physical activity, poor manual labourers have always tended to die at a younger age than double-chinned, deskbound bank managers.

Our scepticism should be further increased by the fact that the forecasts in the report are based on computer models. Such models have a laughable track record in relation to major health problems in the UK. Remember when millions of people were going to die from AIDS? Or when hundreds of thousands were going to die from variant-Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease (vCJD)? In truth, the numbers of deaths were a fraction of those predicted by the models. We should be very wary of taking models seriously in such circumstances.

Thirdly, there is the assumption that ‘obesity equals disease’. But on closer inspection, people in the ‘overweight’ or even the ‘mildly obese’ categories have broadly similar health outcomes to people in the ‘ideal’ weight range. And what are all these fat people going to be treated for? It would appear that cases of type-2 diabetes will rise, but the major diseases said to be caused by obesity are cardio-vascular disease and cancer: the things that are already killing most people, but for which mortality rates have been falling. The worst-case scenario is that, if we become obese, these diseases might get us a little bit quicker than they would have done anyway. How will that put an extra strain on health services?

Finally, the report is pretty damning in one respect: despite suggesting that there is a need for a national, we’re-in-this-together approach to tackling the problem of obesity and exercise, there is no proof whatsoever that government intervention in these areas has a positive effect – a fact that the report admits. Today, there is ubiquitous advice to ‘eat healthily’ or ‘be more active’. There is pressure from government, the media and society generally to get thin and get moving, with the message that being fat is going to kill you. And yet in Britain, as in many other countries around the world, people are still getting fatter.


http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3975/


Did you catch that third paragraph? The one about using questionable modelling to "predict" future trends in mortality? Seems to me I warned about that in my questions-to-ask post.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
37. Classic apples to oranges comparison made with good intentions
Both lead to serious health problems, and they can also synergize each others' effects.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
48. Man, I absolutely hate breathing in people's secondhand fat. nt
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
59. My son is obese.I have been tryinf,with no luck,to find
a gym that will take an 11 year-old.there are NONE.Say what you want.As a nurse,I have seen what obesity does.It is a major health problem.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Obesity has been foisted upon the next generation. Hydrogenated corn syrup, big agra's influence.
Many parents struggle with this.

:hug: MKJ
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Have you tried the Y?
Or a neighborhood rec center?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. I get tired of people not understanding that sometimes for whatever reason
Edited on Wed Oct-17-07 11:30 PM by AuntPatsy
some gain weight faster than others even when eating the same foods. I get tired of the ignorance I see directed at overweight people without knowing all the facts of that particular persons lifestyle or personal health.

There are many drugs out there right now that cause weight gain and anyone judging another without understanding why they are the way they are get nothing from me but disgust., why is it this nation seems to have become a nation of judgmental "assholes"

there are so many mixes messages coming from the media and televised events that it is no wonder so many have eating disorders, we are becoming confused as hell as to what is acceptable and what is not....weight does NOT always take lives nor does smoking nor does driving cars etc. but wars do, they should be worrying more about trying to stop idiots from ensuring life is lost.

Good luck with your child but don't let anyone make comments to you or to him, it is up to you to ensure your child feels good about themselves regardless that they are not a size zero...

And if they feel bad it only makes it worse on them to hear others putting them down, why in the world do people talk so much about overweight people in a negative way? Its down right bully behavior.

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Perseid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
62. I spent a couple of years losing over 40 lbs
All I can say is that, personally, my blood pressure, that I have taken medications to control for the past almost 20 years, is now at low normal.

I thought I was dying for a while! (it could still happen, but I'm an optimist)
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
64. ok,i've had gastric bypass-and am trying to find a gym for my kid
it is almosy impossible to find any kind of gym for my 11 year old...any suggestions
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
66. my son is obese-fyi-no gyms will accept an 11 year old
I HAVE tried
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
68. "The Dangers... of Bingeing on Scare Stories" -- critique from Spiked Online
I thought people might like to see this article for a critical perspective:


Secondly, the basis on which the government’s Foresight report has been produced is questionable. The authors assume that obesity is caused by an imbalance between calories consumed and calories expended. But as the Australian writers Michael Gard and Jan Wright point out, researchers have struggled to confirm this thesis. It might be true - but studies looking for an increase in calories consumed have tended to find that we’re actually eating less than in the past, while studies looking to confirm we take less exercise have also been inconclusive. Yes, it’s true we have many labour-saving devices and transport options now - but there are also many more options for physical activity, too. Women, in particular, would have been strongly discouraged from taking part in sport 50 years ago but now are as likely to be active as men.

Nor has the world of work changed as much people assume. In the past, only a quite small proportion of the population spent their days as miners or road diggers - most people had sedentary jobs back then, too. The kinds of jobs we do may have changed, but the energy involved may not. There is little reason to assume that manning a station on a production line, for example, was any more energetic than filling shelves in a supermarket or flipping burgers. Oh, and people may not have noticed, but despite all their physical activity, poor manual labourers have always tended to die at a younger age than double-chinned, deskbound bank managers.

Our scepticism should be further increased by the fact that the forecasts in the report are based on computer models. Such models have a laughable track record in relation to major health problems in the UK. Remember when millions of people were going to die from AIDS? Or when hundreds of thousands were going to die from variant-Creutzfeldt Jakob Disease (vCJD)? In truth, the numbers of deaths were a fraction of those predicted by the models. We should be very wary of taking models seriously in such circumstances.

Thirdly, there is the assumption that ‘obesity equals disease’. But on closer inspection, people in the ‘overweight’ or even the ‘mildly obese’ categories have broadly similar health outcomes to people in the ‘ideal’ weight range. And what are all these fat people going to be treated for? It would appear that cases of type-2 diabetes will rise, but the major diseases said to be caused by obesity are cardio-vascular disease and cancer: the things that are already killing most people, but for which mortality rates have been falling. The worst-case scenario is that, if we become obese, these diseases might get us a little bit quicker than they would have done anyway. How will that put an extra strain on health services?

Finally, the report is pretty damning in one respect: despite suggesting that there is a need for a national, we’re-in-this-together approach to tackling the problem of obesity and exercise, there is no proof whatsoever that government intervention in these areas has a positive effect – a fact that the report admits. Today, there is ubiquitous advice to ‘eat healthily’ or ‘be more active’. There is pressure from government, the media and society generally to get thin and get moving, with the message that being fat is going to kill you. And yet in Britain, as in many other countries around the world, people are still getting fatter.



Lots more at Spiked Online.
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Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
69. That sucks
I quit smoking to prolong my life. But when I quit smoking I gained weight. Gaining weight will shorten my life.

I'm screwed no matter how I look at this.
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