This is not the country I grew up in

I grew up in the 1970's, graduated high school in 1980 and it makes me sad to think about how much America has changed since then. I know it's easy to look back on the past and only remember the good, but the entire political/social climate of the country was so much healthier then. I remember a time when you could actually talk to people who disagreed with your views and not have it degenerate into name calling or a shouting match. I can remember a time when whoever was President (Ford, Carter and even Reagan) that person was considered by all Americans to be The President. You did not see a bunch of yahoos running around with "Charlton Heston is my President" bumperstickers just because their candidate lost.

We had plenty of problems, but you felt things were improving or going to get better in the future. Racially, this country wasn't where it should be, but things were a helluva lot better than just 10-15 years before when Bull Conner had turned police dogs on Civil Rights marchers. Vietnam had ended, badly, and you felt this country had learned a lesson about fighting "unnecessary" wars and that that mistake would not be repeated. We had the Church Hearings in Congress that exposed the CIA's tactics of domestic spying and reigned in much of their covert operations. Even after Watergate there was a feeling that Nixon broke the law but "the system worked" (I always had trouble swallowing that one after Ford's pardon).

Today, we have an illegitimate President installed by a coup d'etat by 5 Supreme Court Stooges, who, at the very least, has used the worst moment in American history since Pearl Harbor to enact a radical agenda that trashes the Bill of Rights, violates the balance of powers laid out in the Constitution and lead us into an illegal, immoral war in Iraq that has cost us almost 4,000 American lives and god knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars. The political atmosphere today is poisonous, filled with spin and talking points from both sides. Rarely, is the idea of fairness or justice offered as the basis for public policy or legislation. I have little hope for the future as things seem to be worsening geometrically and I see little chance for real and needed change in our government and the way we conduct business.

Sorry if this is a downer but thanks for letting me vent

I remember Vietnam on TV, duck and cover drills in school, my eyes being opened by Raygun's rethuglican presidency, and then Bill Clinton bringing hope back and erasing the federal defecit, and except for a momentary indiscretion, bringing REAL decency back to U.S. politics. Now this. Environment gone to hell, defecit, unending war and growing poverty, and unspeakable people running things.
America took a sickening bizarre turn, and we need to set it straight.

that is deeply divided

Historians and sociologists of civil conflict at times have used the term cold civil war for what you describe

And I hope to god that it does not go hot

I see it as well. The cultural climate here is not different from Weimar, I don't think. If the Democratic and Republican parties both fall apart, or if we can't get effective government, I think things will become much worse. I don't see us in America being any different from the Germany that saw politics degenerate into open war in the streets, and I see us becoming polarized in much the same way.

This is not for you, because you know this already. This is my sad little rant. Veterans and the families and widows of veterans have told me about that polarization. It isn't that there weren't moderate parties, that there weren't the center-left and center-right parties: it isn't that those parties didn't also have their political fighting wings to take on the SA and the Communists, or that their members were not brave or tough or dedicated. The problem is that it's damned near impossible to rally moderates to the barricades. Who wants to lift up high the banner of sensibility? Who wants to take a beating or dish one out for the principle that political change ought to come about by peaceful and orderly means?

The core threat to democracy in a polarizing situation like ours isn't what either pole is thinking. It's what both poles are thinking, and that's that the people gravitating to the other pole are a bunch of dangerous morons who don't deserve a vote and who can't be swayed from their wrongheaded ideas by any argument anyway. The idea of allowing such dangerous morons to have a say becomes ridiculous. It's simply too risky to let the people decide, because those evil people with their evil ideas get a vote also. What if they win? Clearly, our side is in the right, but for some reason - treachery on their part, no doubt - they keep winning, keep poisoning the culture, keep making it seem like their stupid minority opinions are actually the opinion of The People, when no doubt, we are the ones who really represent The People. The people need to wake the hell up to the truth, and we've got it. If we can just get our people in power, and make the media tell the truth instead of the lies the other side is making them tell, and make the schools teach the truth instead of the garbage the other side wants them to spew, we'll be okay.

Words like that are the death rattle of democracy. Those are the thoughts that lead to dictatorship and oppression, whatever the political stripe of the person who is thinking them. I fear those ideas are common now in all corners of the political surface. If there were a Reichsbanner for the USA, I think I'd have to go join it; it would be better to fail at something noble but doomed, than to succeed at something evil.

Because my first reaction is "But that stuff is actually true when applied to Republicans!". Which is humbling.

Although I do think they deserve a voice. But I think the reason why my first reaction is to think that it's true about them is because they're pretty much the only voice that gets any airtime right now. And you have to admit that their ideas are actually evil - I look at pictures and read stories about injured and dead Iraqis and the Katrina aftermath and Americans without health insurance and I just can't find it within myself to say that their ideas are as valid as our ideas. Their ideas kill people.

Also, they actually do commit election fraud. And creationism should never be taught in public school. I've got no problem with people teaching it to their kids if they want to, but teaching it in public school goes against the separation of church and state.

But I would be perfectly okay with them having a voice if the playing field was level and if everything was fair and people were free to use their reason to decide which ideas were better, as opposed to the constant propaganda machine and extremely dumbed down educational system we have now.

I think it's valid to say that some of that stuff is actually true when it comes to Republicans. But I get your point - if you take it too far you end up becoming what you fought against. The serfs revolt and then become the oligarchy themselves. We do need to guard against that.

that's how they retain their power. I suspect they are also very astute at bribery and coercion.

When he was killed and with the subsequent whitewash, I knew we were screwed. I thought we'd be OK because people weren't that greedy or power hungry to put the nation at risk for personal gain. That changed in March 2003.

However, only a very few around me thought it was a coup.
And even fewer were thinking of trying to do anything about it.
The private investigations have been terrific; we have a lot to be thankful there, especially as the whole thing opened up in the past 10 years or so.

It was obvious to me immediately that if we didn't do something then, we'd be on the road we are on now.

And -- especially after RFK was killed - couldn't believe the lack of reaction -- !!!

Still can't believe the lack of reaction . . . like to the 2000 election . . . and especially the
GOP fascist rally outside Miami-Dade Election HQs to STOP the vote count ordered by the Florida State Supreme Court -- !!!!

I had this image of us all being tough Americans -- protecting democracy . . .
and then I read about the McCarthy Era. Even very brave people -- like Humphrey Bogart -- wbo tried to speak out, finally gave up and reversed themselves. Edward R. Murrow probably did the most to break it up, but he also suffered harm to his career. Ironic, eh?


PS: You do know that the Tunnheim Panel/1992 JFK Classified Records Act concluded that
"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI"
..... ????

Journalists had immediately asked for Oswald's work records, W-2 forms, tax filings, etal --
and they were refused. Presumably the Tunnheim Panel got to see everything.

Also, there's a John McCone -- Dir/CIA memo out which confirms that they trained Oswald to go to Russia --

their power has waxed and waned over the years, but it all goes back to that, I agree.

Damn I can't spell worth a damn today!

number of people who have been in numerous cabinets in the following years. Ford was on the Warren Commision, and his cabinet included both cheny and rumsfeld. the bloddless coup of 2000 put another texas "oilman" in office. it goes on and on.:hide: :tinfoilhat:

I can relate. :hug:

:kick:

we had back then, in particular there was little sense that we were living in a 'police state'. President Nixon's spying activities were at least somewhat limited, as opposed to the blanket surveillance practiced today. The police weren't being trained to be 'robocops' by the federal government. Torture was something that OTHER countries did.

I know what you mean, but we simply cannot give up. It's our turn to carry the candle forward through the darkness and storms, and keep it alive for the next generation.

I feel your pain.

Why apologize? After reading that post, who couldn't see sense in those words?

I grew up mainly in the 80's, but I still remember an easier time than now. Back then, Russia was still our main threat, and many of the movies that came out had to deal with relations between U.S citizens and Russians...and how they reacted with each other...

I think we all know how this one ended....Russia isn't even considered a super-power anymore, by most standards...but back then, at least we knew who it was we were dealing with...

And then there was this period of camaraderie, of respect for each others cultures that took place in the mid to late eighties that I remember, but now things are different. Paras troika ( you people remember this shit? ) There seemed to be an end to the hostility, and a real sense of communication and willingness to learn about each others cultures... Russia had their Coca-Cola, and people over here experimented with Borsche( although most people didn't like it, but I happen to ).


Russia is no longer a threat...now, pretty much the entire Middle East hates our guts, and that respect is long-since-gone

This is not the same planet I remember!!

or consciousness of the world around me starts around 1950, and boy are you right that this is a different planet.

I keep looking back to Limbaugh. He and his ilk have made hate, hypocrisy, and distortion acceptable. Heck, it's almost a requirement.

Even here in the modest midwest, people have become just plain mean.


Class of '81.

"I remember a time when you could actually talk to people who disagreed with your views and not have it degenerate into name calling or a shouting match. "

Yep. Divide and conquer.


"Sorry if this is a downer but thanks for letting me vent"

No problema--sometimes you just HAVE to. :-)

I refused to call Reagan "president." I just couldn't bring my mouth to form the words. His policies hurt me and my family in a very real way and were partly responsible for my 10 years of exile.

Plenty of things sucked in the 70s, although I will grant you that we still had a functioning constitution.

from a fellow Virginian, and Class of '80, how's the 'burg doing these days?

Agreed, these last 8 years have been a major downer, here's hoping things are looking better soon!

:hi:

Hope you are well. The 'burg is DRY, as is the rest of the state.

We have bottomed out. I sense a political and intellectual renaissance coming on. Come on, do you really think things are going to continue getting worse? The Republican agenda is all but derailed and dead. Things are only going to improve from here on out.

instead of doing everything covertly, everything is now done in the open.

read up on Guatemala, iran, indonesia, Nicaragua, el salvador, columbia, panama, north korea, pick your country of choice in the middle east, pick your country of choice in africa, pick your country of choice in south america, pick your favorite Caribbean nation?

same as it ever was. this is not my beautiful house, this is not my beautiful wife.

we like our dirty secrets to remain dirty secrets while we promote the shining example of the wonderful american way of life.

why didn't we help hungry when the soviets cracked down on them? why didn't we help poland when the soviets cracked down on them? the list goes on and on...

letting the days go by...

:yourock:

This may seem strange but it seemed to me, that style of music and the dancing that went with it served as a cultural uniting influence or healing balm after the turbulent sixties. Then Reagen comes to power in 80 and disco starts getting trashed, I cracked up laughing when in the movie "Airplane" they knocked over the disco tower but I wasn't expecting the music to die. :(

,...I grew up in. It's just become exponentially worse in terms of a democratic institution because the corruption and greed and criminality and corporatism have run completely amok. There can be no democracy without justice. There can be no justice without equal application and enforcement of just laws. There can be no just laws if corruption prevails over government.

I also want to thank those just a bit older than me for bravely taking to the streets to speak out against racism, sexism and the war. Things seemed to improve for a time, until Raygun got in office.....