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Orange San Diego: Fighting Fire with Fire; Bush Policy Burns California

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:08 AM
Original message
Orange San Diego: Fighting Fire with Fire; Bush Policy Burns California
Edited on Fri Oct-26-07 10:14 AM by Land Shark
To the full extent of federal involvement in the fires in Orange County and San Diego County (and California generally), it is once again a story of

(1) specific warnings (issued for example by the GAO) about inadequate federal preparedness to intelligently fight wildfires,
(2) combined with inaction,
(3) leading to the warnings becoming a nightmarish reality, similar to what happened with Katrina's levees, and 9-11's warnings.

This time it's a June 1, 2007 GAO Report that's specifically to follow up on prior warnings about inadequate and unclear strategies to fight wildfires, and especially on spending money wisely. See Wildland Fire Management: Lack of Clear Goals or a Strategy Hinders Federal Agencies' Efforts to Contain the Costs of Fighting Fires GAO-07-655 http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/summary.php?rptno=GAO-07-655&accno=A70165

The main points of the report are that agencies, despite prior reports suggesting or requiring them to do so, (1) failed to develop "analytical tools that assist officials in identifying and implementing an appropriate response to a given fire," and, despite what would seem like an increasing need for firefighting resources, the GAO report heavily stresses a goal in significant tension with emergency preparedness: "Cost-containment."

Despite the merits of fiscal conservatism in frequent instances, the one thing we expect the government to do is to provide aid and response in emergency situations, to be Johnny on the spot, and not be thinking about saving a buck on gas costs while racing to the fire by doing 55mph.

Can you imagine the heart-rendering stress of even wondering if a lifetime of memories would just go up in smoke? (much less actually experiencing that). Think of the survivor's guilt when some homes get burnt to the ground by flying embers while others stand untouched. Or what if fate placed someone on vacation, and they are tortured by what they might have done if they'd been home? Americans are hard pressed to accept the reality of true tragedy, it seems there must always be blame, reaction, compensation, conversion, baptism by fire. Like the familiar cliche after 9-11, a big part of us wants to say "the fires changed everything."

And yet the fires change nothing, especially after a little time goes by and things settle back to some normalcy.

There's a strong element of tragedy here, record drought, rare but predictable Santa Ana winds, the luck of the falling embers.

There's a minor note of personal responsibility in a few cases where folks built in clearly the more dangerous areas, but then again I presume they were able to obtain fire insurance as required for all mortgages and insurance companies are hawks when it comes to risk, so the risk (while enhanced) can not be said to be extreme, except in unfair retrospect.

There's a rip in the fabric of normal life that allows us to reflect on what's important. Even neighbors who were bickering and feuding can have a truce and join arms to fight a common enemy.

But there's also a major duty on the part of government to be prepared for these disturbances of public order: Fire, ambulance, defense.... these things together with elections are certainly core callings of government, not mere "details" at all. The whole reason we form fire departments is that it is impossible for us to individually fight fires or save our own lives, a community response of firefighting or ambulance is critically necessary.

So was the federal government prepared to save Southern California? The June 1 2007 GAO Report says No, federal firefighting strategies were not clear, and the overall focus was on saving bucks. This is the same claimed reason for not repairing or reinforcing the levees in New Orleans. Cost-cutting.

Much of the California National Guard is in Iraq. That war is now costing every man woman and child in America $8,000.00. Certainly only a fraction of the fires involved directly federal lands, but just like Katrina real disasters overwhelm the ability of even large states to respond. Response and help always have to come from outside. I certainly would vote to cut my Iraq contribution from $8000 to $7980 in order to afford the $20 per person I'm guessing would be more than enough extra to have a robust "wildfire homeland security" program.

The orange skies of San Diego should permanently change only one thing: Our attitude toward the federal government, it's core priorities and missions, and when and where saving a buck is appropriate. Cost containment should normally always be a background concern, but it is hardly ever the #1 concern when it comes to things like this.

The devastation of these fires reaches far beyond San Diego. It's another form of terror, a large chunk of it government-enhanced, that forces us to think "there but for the grace of God go I", forces us to retreat to "security", to feel vulnerable and fearful, as if ANYTHING could happen. Might as well stay home much more and not venture out into the dangerous world, much less do politics. I mean, what if you were at a charity event or something and your house burned down when you were away indulging in some of your higher values? Should this guilt keep us at home?

While there are surely elements of tragedy in these fires, the core safety and security of our populace, the core thing that ENABLES us to engage in the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS, is a #1 government responsibility.

The June 1, 2007 GAO report begins a strong showing that again our government failed us, once again, in national disaster preparedness. Individual interest like saving on a few tax dollars trumped long term public interest. That's how Bush policy is burning California, and burning all Americans. Though it's true that fighting fire with fire may only leave one with ashes, ashes are the proper fate of the governmental philosophies that simply fiddle before, during, and after the fire.

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Me and my cronies are doing a heckuva job." - Commander AWOL
Edited on Fri Oct-26-07 10:14 AM by SpiralHawk
As usual

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And "Brownie" has even made a cameo appearance there. Amazing. nt
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
49. No wonder FEMA faked a press conference here, with
FEMA employees posing as reporters.

Heaven forbid if some real reporter would ask them about the GAO report!
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Bingo n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. Double Bingo! Blackout (with soot) nt
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. LIHOP!
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Guys with liguid gel lighting fires in choice locales.
Tell me it wasn't another planned event.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Some real terrorists, but very unlikely to be al qaeda, but then again.....
Edited on Fri Oct-26-07 10:39 PM by Land Shark
One official was quoted as saying the santiago fire could have been contained but for a (you guessed it) delayed response by outside (read: fed) authorities. See the replies lower in this thread for exact quote and link.

on edit, here's the url i refer to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2141076&mesg_id=2145547
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Maybe I was a bit obtuse,
there is NOTHING I would put past this mal-administration.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I did note (mentally) that you left that inference open. Now it's "formally open" :)
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. BTW
Great OP LS! As per usual... :thumbsup:
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thank-you LandShark.
(Haven't had my coffee yet.)
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Make it a double. Need to keep your eyes wide open on this admin... nt
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do you know if kpete made it back to her house?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, thank God, I think here was a thread on that already, all is well.... nt
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. $2.4 trillion for bogus war, while leaving us vulnerable on so many other fronts.
It's a shame to our nation that the idea of community is so derided that politicians can make so much hay over taxes saying "It's your money!", and that government shouldn't handle anything, at the same time that the exact opposite occurs with respect to this war, where we are expected to spend endlessly on a massive government-bungled project without daring to question it.

Great last parapraph.

K&R.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks bleever. Govt is instituted for the "common welfare"... things we can only do as group/nation
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. K-R Landshark.
On to the greatest page with you...
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for doing me the honor tjwash, tho perhaps i'll see you more on cali "flame-thread" :) nt
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good job.
The single mindedness, criminal projection, and total lack of credible knowledge of some of our supposed "leaders" is gut-wrenching. They seem to have no understanding that fiscal conservatism--which I approve of--can be carried to the point of saving yourself into the poor house.
I have seen this unfortunate phenomonen carried to the extent that people won't even fix their automobiles--putting themselves and their, and other, families in mortal danger just to save a few bucks. And you know what? Virtually every single one of these tight fisted, pinch-penny idiots was a "conservative!"

I hate to use a "these people" broad brush, but, dammit! They really are warped, self centered ghouls, whose value to humanity is miniscule. I know, i sound like a terrepublican saying shit like that, but it's frustratingly and demonstrably true!

Oh, yeah--K&R
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. FEMA and the feds SHOULD have learned from their UTTER failure against the bark beetle last time!
When Gray Davis and a BIPARTISAN congressional delegation requested that more federal aid was needed to rid national parklands here in Southern California of the bark beetle infestations that made the fire hazards that much worse many months before the earlier 2003 wildfires happened, FEMA drug its feet for months and only DAYS before the fires hit sent back their rejection of this request. The fires then hit, made FAR WORSE by the bark beetle damage in the federal parks that fueled the fires and we all paid for Bush and his federal agencies inaction through lack of PROPER spending of money for resources to prevent such tragedies then.

Now four years later, we've made the same mistakes again, and we're paying for it AGAIN!

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2003/10/31/news/state/10_30_0321_43_28.txt

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1031-07.htm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/fire-n01.shtml

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thank you for this California-centric perspective! I appreciate it.... nt
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
53. What about some
Abstinence Education directed at the Bark Beetles?

That seems to be doing so well elsewhere.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R! n/t
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. K & R
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yes. Ditto for health care
We need to bring back the concept of public good.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Your great byline deserves the Lead: "We need to bring back the concept of public good." yes! nt
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. When we had fires here in GA, firefighters from California
came to offer assitance, and recommendations on how to fight it because of their vast experience. We had little experience compared to theirs, and yet GA sent them away in their arrogance...saying they didn't need Californians to tell them how to do their job.

Now, we have this inadequate response from the federal government, and more specifically, the Bush administration. Oh, the ineptness and arrogance of so-called conservatives! Sheeesh.

:kick: and R
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Interesting story rateyes, how's your impeach W design doing? nt
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Didn't know anybody remembered that!
I haven't really bothered much with it. Too busy. I wonder if it's still up at cafepress.com/rateyes

:hi:
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yes its time for us boys and girls to start rattling cages kicking ass and taking names
I am one ole boy who is tired of America being led to be what she is, this is not me and this is not our Country its what the bush* cartel want us to be and I've about had it with them. The goodwill of my own countries citizens should be our top priority. This re:puke: bullshit has about run its course with me
K & R
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. well put, madokie. the "taking names" part can be whose on the side of real america/real democracy
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. We should have thrown these people out on their ass a long time ago.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. and as I knew but neglected to mention (and a wise sage reminded me)
Fuel buildup is an issue in California in natural fireibased ecosystems such as the ones burned and burning.... (i used to volunteer one winter and summer in Yellowstone in the backcountry so I'm familiar with this, as well as from my bachelor's degree in biology with a concentration in wildlife ecology)

Because of the role of fuel buildup from unnatural fire suppression, this is another dimension in which POLICY plays a key role in the extent and amount of damage from the fires....
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. kr
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. kick
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Nadinbrezinski, I fall down before your 33,174 posts
Wow. Awe-inspiring. So, nadinbrzeskinski, Welcome to DU. ;) In reality, I guess you can probably say that to me even though for me it's been almost 3 years and a few thousand posts.... since it's all relative... :)
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R!
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. Great, informative post
k&r
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Thanks BerryBush: from the choices in your autosig I'd say your post makes me proud. ;) nt
But still I'm feeling very humble/humiliated lately so the pride wore off quickly. :) Not your doing though, thanks for taking the time to read and respond. :thumbsup:
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
31. I believe the fiddling
is also because they are in the process of privatizing the Forest Service and the firefighting divisions.
They did not want to fix any problems they just wanted to turn the job over to a Republican contributor.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. They're trying to privatize EVERYthing, so I'm sure you're right (even elections) nt
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. For sure
Edited on Sat Oct-27-07 02:04 PM by KT2000
A friend is a fire dispatcher for the Western Region - US Forest Service.
It is happening now, unless this fire changed someone's mind.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Newslink: Slow response made santiago fire get bigger.....
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/24/national/main3401265.shtml

Officials: Arson Behind Santiago Fire
SAN DIEGO, Oct. 24, 2007

...

Crews were anticipating an injection of additional firefighters and equipment from other states, mostly throughout the West. Frustration over the firefighting effort began to emerge Tuesday when a fire official said not enough had been done to protect homes.

Orange County Fire Chief Chip Prather told reporters that firefighters' lives were threatened because too few crews were on the ground. He said a quick deployment of aircraft could have corralled a massive blaze near Irvine.

"It is an absolute fact: Had we had more air resources, we would have been able to control this fire," he said.



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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Wasn't arson suspected in the fire around Irvine?
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Pretty much determined it is arson...
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
54. This the one they are looking for the white pickemup truck?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. A white pickemup truck or a white pickmeup truck? Is that Texan lingo? nt
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Pickemup truck.
Nope, we say that here in Iowa too. It's just a fun slang term for pickup truck.

Personally, I like the way my kids say it........hiccup truck. :rofl:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Beats me you'll have to ask a Texan, my Poppie died so I can't ask him.
;)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
35. K*R
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. K&R
Thanks, Land Shark.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
43. R&K
104
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, Land Shark.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
46. As if we needed one more reminder: we must protect ourselves from our government
I think this is the most pivotal thought that people waking up need to have to realize they must join the peaceful revolutionary movement
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Whoa, stop making sense like Thomas Jefferson!! : ) THanks for the, yeah, needed reminder.... nt
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
48. Kick n Recommended.nt
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
50. k&r
good analysis.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. Thanks Cali, hope your efforts are going well.... nt
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
51. kick
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
60. "Individual interest like saving on a few tax dollars trumped long term public interest. That's ...
... how Bush policy is burning California, and burning all Americans."

Wish I could recommend this thread 100x.

Thank you,
Bob
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Thank you UL -- I'll take you up on that wish. ; )
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
63. kick, not enough equipment or manpower.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
64. Landshark, I hope you'll write this up for some SD area papers
so voters here will see this.
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